Eagle, I don't mean this in a disrespectful manner at all, and I understand where you're coming from... but...
I wonder if that sort of speculation is really necessary?
I think CFF has some great people in it - it's not my cup of tea and yes, I've checked it out. I don't think you have much to worry about.
I guess what I'm saying is please be careful when you're writing about someone who has recently passed away and consider the impact it may have on their loved ones. I'm sure you wouldn't want to hurt them.
John Shoyer was very kind to us when we first left TWI.
With in couple months of leaving TWI we found a CFF fellowship...and it turned out to be a case of--gee, here's a resource to be used. After the first fellowship we attended, it was "I need you to this, and I need you to that..."
People who move into TWI splinters straight from TWi are likely to retain the habits built in TWI. Attendees beware.
I happen to know that John Hendricks' CRF ministry is still going strong 2 years after his death. They still sent out wows (lights) and still do their corps type program and they still do advanced classes. I don't know exactly who does what now that he's gone, but all indication is that it's working. John was the central figure in the group just like VP was to twi.
From what I understand, John Shroyer was not the only teacher in CFFs foundational class and that they've built up quite a solid support system. If Hendricks' group can still function, I would think CFF has at least as good of a chance to do the same.
Not that most care I mean after all we all know that people who go to offshoots are .........what was the words ? Ignorant , Waybrained, twithead, PFAL worshipers.
I understand where you are coming from on this, and I thought about that very thing prior to posting the topic. But now is the time to post this, right away, before something bad sets in after his falling asleep.
Within a year after VPW, the ministry had power struggles. Something about VPW sets that in motion and I cannot put my finger on it. But I am not an enemy of VPW because I disagree with his stuff in PFAL.
I'll now mention some things I never brought forward. From my own experience, and perhaps from writing a doctrinal book on his beliefs (I am not plugging the book here, just stating what has happened because of it), I have received mail accusing me of heresy from one person not a part of any offshoot, (I did tell GS about that one) and been taken off of phone, internet mailings by CFF followers where I live. A fellowship I used to belong to departed from VPW teaching and was subject to spying and literal infiltration by CFF people. It was weird. Since I knew John, I did not bother him with it, but just went on with our lives. I am glad I did not. I had no idea he had been sick. He did not share that with me and from what I knew, not too many others. That I understand, being a very personal thing.
What worries me are the elements, still inherent in CFF, rising to the top and setting up a mark and avoid system. To be honest, I cannot say where Wayne Clapp, Jon Nessle or anyone else will stand on this either.
There needs to be a lightening up of these people, even if it includes those at the top and it needs to be done right now. They should be able to receive people cordially and even friendly. Actually there was one person in CFF that did act like it did matter and kept sending emails to me and my wife, continuously offering fellowship (well, until the book was written I guess). I'd like to give him credit for that to that extent, and that was a Pat L. Leave it at that. The rest knew where we stood and avoided us.
I have found now that other mainline churches sometimes do the same. More so with TWI and offshoots but it is common. There is an old Steve Green song, "Let the Walls Come Down" and basically says "...if in Christ we agree..." and he means that there are too many Christians separating themselves from each other over doctrine and Christ did not want this to happen.
People should be able to express their concern over the doctrine, agree to disagree if necessary, and go on fellowshipping, not disturbing anyone's fellowship.
Yes, yes, my wife and I had to put up with CFF parties in which we enjoyed their company, but if they cannot endure what we believe, we know that already and do not talk about it. What the heck, did they have any idea on how many times we had to sit in silence and listen to talk about devil spirits?
Lots of times.
Therefore, I respectfully request that those with any thoughts of promoting the old TWI doctrine of separating themselves from the rest of the body of Christ, refrain from doing so. It is going on. Some have had better fellowships than other in CFF and that is great, but CFF in its rescue of TWI followers, unintentionally took in people that wanted TWI all over again but with someone other than LCM.
Compassion and grace are supposed to be the foundation of the CFF ministry. For those that turned us away, then maybe you should think about that. I think I had the restraint enough to leave CFF fellowships alone and CFF after deciding to go our own way. But we had wanted to keep our friendship. We found that not possible.
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ChasUFarley
Eagle, I don't mean this in a disrespectful manner at all, and I understand where you're coming from... but...
I wonder if that sort of speculation is really necessary?
I think CFF has some great people in it - it's not my cup of tea and yes, I've checked it out. I don't think you have much to worry about.
I guess what I'm saying is please be careful when you're writing about someone who has recently passed away and consider the impact it may have on their loved ones. I'm sure you wouldn't want to hurt them.
Peace.
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Bramble
John Shoyer was very kind to us when we first left TWI.
With in couple months of leaving TWI we found a CFF fellowship...and it turned out to be a case of--gee, here's a resource to be used. After the first fellowship we attended, it was "I need you to this, and I need you to that..."
People who move into TWI splinters straight from TWi are likely to retain the habits built in TWI. Attendees beware.
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johniam
I happen to know that John Hendricks' CRF ministry is still going strong 2 years after his death. They still sent out wows (lights) and still do their corps type program and they still do advanced classes. I don't know exactly who does what now that he's gone, but all indication is that it's working. John was the central figure in the group just like VP was to twi.
From what I understand, John Shroyer was not the only teacher in CFFs foundational class and that they've built up quite a solid support system. If Hendricks' group can still function, I would think CFF has at least as good of a chance to do the same.
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WhiteDove
I think CFF will be fine...
Not that most care I mean after all we all know that people who go to offshoots are .........what was the words ? Ignorant , Waybrained, twithead, PFAL worshipers.
Nice............sense of community!
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Eagle
ChasF:
I understand where you are coming from on this, and I thought about that very thing prior to posting the topic. But now is the time to post this, right away, before something bad sets in after his falling asleep.
Within a year after VPW, the ministry had power struggles. Something about VPW sets that in motion and I cannot put my finger on it. But I am not an enemy of VPW because I disagree with his stuff in PFAL.
I'll now mention some things I never brought forward. From my own experience, and perhaps from writing a doctrinal book on his beliefs (I am not plugging the book here, just stating what has happened because of it), I have received mail accusing me of heresy from one person not a part of any offshoot, (I did tell GS about that one) and been taken off of phone, internet mailings by CFF followers where I live. A fellowship I used to belong to departed from VPW teaching and was subject to spying and literal infiltration by CFF people. It was weird. Since I knew John, I did not bother him with it, but just went on with our lives. I am glad I did not. I had no idea he had been sick. He did not share that with me and from what I knew, not too many others. That I understand, being a very personal thing.
What worries me are the elements, still inherent in CFF, rising to the top and setting up a mark and avoid system. To be honest, I cannot say where Wayne Clapp, Jon Nessle or anyone else will stand on this either.
There needs to be a lightening up of these people, even if it includes those at the top and it needs to be done right now. They should be able to receive people cordially and even friendly. Actually there was one person in CFF that did act like it did matter and kept sending emails to me and my wife, continuously offering fellowship (well, until the book was written I guess). I'd like to give him credit for that to that extent, and that was a Pat L. Leave it at that. The rest knew where we stood and avoided us.
I have found now that other mainline churches sometimes do the same. More so with TWI and offshoots but it is common. There is an old Steve Green song, "Let the Walls Come Down" and basically says "...if in Christ we agree..." and he means that there are too many Christians separating themselves from each other over doctrine and Christ did not want this to happen.
People should be able to express their concern over the doctrine, agree to disagree if necessary, and go on fellowshipping, not disturbing anyone's fellowship.
Yes, yes, my wife and I had to put up with CFF parties in which we enjoyed their company, but if they cannot endure what we believe, we know that already and do not talk about it. What the heck, did they have any idea on how many times we had to sit in silence and listen to talk about devil spirits?
Lots of times.
Therefore, I respectfully request that those with any thoughts of promoting the old TWI doctrine of separating themselves from the rest of the body of Christ, refrain from doing so. It is going on. Some have had better fellowships than other in CFF and that is great, but CFF in its rescue of TWI followers, unintentionally took in people that wanted TWI all over again but with someone other than LCM.
Compassion and grace are supposed to be the foundation of the CFF ministry. For those that turned us away, then maybe you should think about that. I think I had the restraint enough to leave CFF fellowships alone and CFF after deciding to go our own way. But we had wanted to keep our friendship. We found that not possible.
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excathedra
i don't care for offshoots
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