I have no answers for you. Only a question. Nowadays ... can you be around flannel, look at Kiefer Sutherland, refrain from washing your hands, ignore those smells? Just wondering if by re-living the event ... did it help?
I have been guided through some memories by my therapist (not like a movie, though). These were things I never forgot, things I remember clearly, but had not pieced together correctly - like how one event was related to another event. She has helped me to explore how these patterns even went back two or three generations in my family. Now instead of my weird disconnected thoughts of isolated incidents, I see a bigger picture, so it makes some sense to me. It takes away the blame and leaves me with a more peaceful perspective, sad, but peaceful. So ... for me ... it helped.
I don't know where God was when you got hurt. I'm sorry this happened to you. When my kids were little and they would ask me hard questions about God, I would tell them to never forget the question, and to ask Him when they meet him someday.
I wonder if it operates like in the stories frank peretti tells. In the spiritual battles that he depicts...the spiritual beings are engaged in war all around us...the devil and his spirits are at work...causing division, strife, injustice.... .the angels, if you will..only have the power to act when energized by prayer...hard to explain really, but make for some interesting perspective being told alm,ost as if looking at it from the angels pov.
I don`t know dot, I went through the same questions to the point of a chrisis in my faith when contemplating why God would allow me to be sucked in to a group led by ravening wolves....
WHy couldn`t he lead me to a wholesom group where my efforts and sacrifice would have been of benefit?
I only know that he has made himself known to me in an unmistakable way on more than one occasion...that he has been there to pick up the shattered pieces time and again....
I don`t know why you were hurt as a little girl...I am so sorry.
Dot, your story and your quest touch me deeply. As rascal recently wrote on another thread, these things take time. I have had many of the same questions you're asking. Locally, a lot of the believers have been involved in exactly that type of "inner healing," and though I don't understand a lot of things, I just thought I'd pass on that a number of friends I know have simply asked him. It's the next layer of the onion, so to speak. The answers I have heard have been surprising, but I don't offer them here. You need to hear directly from the Lord. There's no other way.
I do hope that you successfully beat any idea that you may share any of the blame (i.e. because you didn't leave when you were warned), and I pray that you find your answer from God as to "where He was" during the crime.
May I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing? Some may see it as blasphemy of sorts to "challenge" God as Job did and as the Psalmist did. I can see that POV, but I can also see that when we get honest enough about how we really feel, the Lord may step in with exactly what we need. There are a number of incidents in my personal life that seems as if I was left unprotected. There is a lot of unfairness in the world... everyone knows that... the victims of 911 and Columbine and countless others.
I do believe the Bible has answers to your questions, but they don't come with a systematic theology, they come when the spirit guides us into all truth. This is Jesus, the risen Lord. Was it "him" that you saw? Or did you put him there? I think it was "him," but I cannot say for sure. My encouragment would be to ask him.
I am delighted that God allowed me to see what made me a freaking lunatic when it came to hating flannel and the rest, I would be almost tranced at the smell of Clorox and freaked by Elmer’s glue – you can figure out what it represented…
So, therefore there was much UNDERSTANDING that came from that trip with the Lord. And I knew if I focused on the WHY’s it would bring up anger. But this poster friend contacted me and just kept asking about where was Jesus and she did NOT understand how he could do nothing.
And truly, I have never had that answered either.
I think having that question looming over me, makes me DEEP down inside, NOT trust God/Jesus completely. After all, if he LOVED me why didn’t he stop it? And if Jesus was there, how could he DO nothing? I would have helped him. So, that makes me a better protector, somewhere in my thinking, than he is. So, in turn, I apparently, do not let go and let God, because he did such a .... poor job of it back in the woods.
Does that make sense, so there is this part of me, who TRUSTS him, but a small child who surfaces and says, “he did not do such a great job when you were 6.”
That memory, is my enemy to complete faith, I believe. And to have people tell me, he allowed it so you can help others this happened to, is such a weak reason, I cannot believe GOD, in his wisdom, would have to have me attacked to help others who were.
That is lame.
That would be like me pushing you down and having your knee bleeding, so I can show others how wonderfully I administer a band aide on their bleeding knees.
The quest, (with the STILL unsatisfied hunger I have to know my God), has brought up areas with which I am having trouble dealing.
Cman – I read that book about 12 years ago, I think he is also grabbing at answers that seem lame to me. It was a rabbi wasn’t it that wrote it? To me the book just kept saying, “Bad things will happen to you”. No offense, and I appreciate YOU and your help, but I know that… I just do not understand, a GOD whose nature it is to LOVE me, can allow that to happen. And that, like Rascal says, does not even cover the quest to find him which ends into a soul sucking sex-cult.
Were we not taught that if we ask God for an egg he would not give us a scorpion? So, either he gave us a scorpion, OR he told us to get out and we did not listen. The latter, I can buy. As I did not listen in the woods AND I did not listen to LEAVE TWI when I saw the red flags. I can blame MY humanness rather than think God allowed it to happen to HELP others….
Another Dan – I do blame myself for NOT leaving the woods, and I talked 5 year-old Karen into staying with me. I AM to blame for not leaving. I am not to blame for the pigs attacking me. Thank you for your kindness, and I do not think that a 6 year-old-girl should have THAT happen because she wanted to play "tea party" a few more minutes." So, I agree with you there.
Maybe, I need to ask God for forgiveness for my inability to FOLLOW directions – that makes more sense, than the loving God who lets it happen for future Glory for himself…
I cannot eat that meal… ya know?
I just want to know WHERE he is during the commission of the crime? Loving with me as they pin me to the ground and I cry in horror? Why didn't he have a tree fall on them and stop them? My agnostic-earthly-father would have done better than this.
Apparently, I have some anger issues with heavenly father…
****
“If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?” (Luke 11:11-13)
Dot, perhaps you should re-read the book of Job. And then read it again and again. There must be a reason why God would have had Job written. Perhaps it was written to address questions such as yours and therefore the answers are found therein.
Speaking of the devil coming along and trying to ruin a life (Job)
There was a speaker at the conference I went to-
She went into how the devil does not have foreknowledge, but she believes, the devil can see “family” characteristics in a person and go after them in youth to steal their ministry.
She said something like, “My family is loud and comical. They are funny and great Irish storytellers. If you saw me out, and I was still a stranger, but you knew my family, you may approach me and say, “Are you an O’Malley?”
Like wise, the devil sees a bright, sparkly kid, who loves vacation Bible school, he reads the signs (characteristics of the family of God) and sends tormentors and destroyers to crush their ministries BEFORE it begins. Then, she shared how it took her 20-30 years to heal from the incest she experienced.
From there they taught a bit on “sozo” training. It is a class that lets the Lord take you back to places where your life opened to WRONG things and the bricks built on that.
I am signed up for that. I figured the Lord already did that with me, and I know it was him, so these people are probably on the right track.
We will see.
I do not want to be mad at God in this area and “in love” with him elsewhere, it is time God and I hashed this out so it makes sense.
All answers are appreciated, I may not agree, but looking for how you see this stuff.
Sozo (means saved)
They do believe that PTS can limit us (stuff the devil sent in the past)
Introduction. Histrory. Boundaries of protection. Qualifications of a Sozo team member. Structure of teams. Overall view of methods used. Father ladder. Four doors. The wall. Divine editing. Post traumatic stress/trigger mechanisms. Presenting Jesus. Familiar Spirits. Sozo on children. Etiquette. Cautions.
Where the Holy Spirit desires to make us whole; body, soul, and spirit. To take us further on this healing journey, we have invited a team from Bethel Church in Redding to bring SOZO ministry training to our region. SOZO is a healing ministry to the wounds of the inner person. It specifically addresses wounds that hinder us from moving into our destiny.
SOZO is the Greek word translated saved, healed & delivered
The SOZO ministry is a unique inner healing and deliverance ministry. The main aim is to get to the root of those things hindering your personal connection with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The SOZO team uses six tools:
Father ladder
Presenting Jesus
Four Doors
Trigger Mechanisms
The Wall
Divine Editing
By using these tools and following the Holy Spirit, wounds are healed, strongholds broken, truth revealed, and “doors” closed.
I do not want to be mad at God in this area and “in love” with him elsewhere, it is time God and I hashed this out so it makes sense.
I think that Jesus, when faced with difficult questions, went to a solitary place and talked things out with God. Sometimes, talking things out openly with others only leads to greater confusion.
The girl who shared her PTS with incest, says she gets the devil back each time she teaches deliverance. I think that is a great payback.
I just want to know - where God was during the commison of the crime.
And since he is all powerful -- why didn't he use those powers to SAVE us in those crimes.
Larry, your point is well taken. I have asked him for years...
I have gotten no answers as to that portion of the question...
I do not want it to be one of those answers, "It will make sense when we die."
There has to be a reasonable answer.
Dot, one of the first questions I asked myself (when I first became a believer) was: If God knew Lucifer was going to rebel why did He create him in the first place? It took me years to discover a satisfactory answer. I don't recall the specifics of that answer but, it was satisfactory enuf that I never questioned it again. I don't know why God took so long in answering my question. Some questions are still unanswered and I might die before they are. It may not be enuf for you to wait until you meet God face to face but, sometimes the questions themselves can cause one to lose faith. I think that was one of the lessons one can learn in Job. It wasn't until Job focused on others that God was able to turn his captivity and restore to him more than he had before he started focusing on himself.
I understand your point, and perhaps I will one day have the answer. I too asked the Lucifer question along with the Adam and Eve question, if he knew they were going to sin why not create Sally and Sammy instead of them....
I have not focused primarily on myself, but on others for a very long time, I stuffed the "ills" of that event into a black hole. When the Lord showed me, how it tied into my present, I was delivered of things. But when I asked, "where were you?"
I had no understanding. Maybe it will come as I continue forward
When I have people, I speak with about the Lord, ask that question of me, I have to say I do not know. I feel that answer is fodder to build "lack of trust" in God and not the kind of faith needed to live the book of Acts in this day and time.
For instance, one asked me why their daughter died of cancer in childhood... I do not know. They feel if they had POWER they would have saved the child. I tell them God offers us that power and they ask, "where was he then?"
My silent answer, or my I do not know is weak.
I do not think that God needed a rose petal in heaven, I do not think the fear in the heart of the mother killed the child, nor do I feel the child should have believed for herself.... Perhaps, it is the community of the church who has allowed these things to happen out of inaction in the area of miracles.
I had one person tell me, because my mother did not pray for me evey day (her job as a parent) I walked without protection, which opened the door. But then, if God loved me and knew I was his, I really feel he had an obligation as a loving father to protect me. I did the best I could at 6. I went to vacation Bible school, and I asked to go to church with the neighbors as my parents did not go, I sought the Lord.
If I were God, I would have protected that kid, as she tried to find me. I cannot be more loving than God.
I may not ever know the answer. I am walking forward, but this question bothers me in MY life as well as in helping others understand "why?"
I do not know why, and it makes me ineffectual, I think, in helping people close wounds.
Perhaps, I see through a glass darkly
But being as the Bible has the answers to life the answer must be there.
When people tell me they were looking for God (as their earthly father raped them) and they were taken under wing by a priest that then raped them ... I have no answers...
Other than, I know I was told to leave the woods and I missed it. A loving God cannot WANT bad things to happen so he can use my example to help others. He may not want it to happen, but it did. Now that event --he was not part of-- is being healed, I can use it to help others. There is a difference. But I still fell my answer is not solid.
A speaker came in to church and had been sold by his father and raped by 15 men when he was 10 years old.
He told a tale that made me want to vomit.
Then, he said he would go through it all again to be able to help others become free.
He spoke of an 85-year-old woman, who clasped his hands, and shared for the FIRST time she was raped at 5, and now after his testimony she can finally speak it.
He said, he maybe crazy, but that made it worth it.
To me, that was horrid like the rose petal analogy. God, with his kind nature, could have never had that 10-year-old boy be sold and raped so an 85 -year-old woman could be delivered.
Jesus delivered us by his death and resurrection. No little boy has to be raped to save or deliver anyone.
I am just not buying it.
I might buy that the devil is pure evil and God is pure light. God must have provided a way out that we missed.
But I know what you are saying. And I know certain questions just seemed to float around without answers. I just really hope to find the answer to this one.
It is NOT the nature of God to allow someone to be shot in the face so they can help others shot in the face. That may happen, (meaning it may become a useful tool in a testimony) but it cannot be WHY the guy was shot.
I got a couple questions for you. You prbly dont remember me, but we talked abt three years ago, I have been looking at my Charles Darwin and read some Richard Dawkins(cheez if this guy isnt the nutcracker suit i dunno who is, is this guy bi-polar or have any mental illness you know of? just wondering) I think it would be fun to talk. Anyway we talked abt three years ago and it was fun for me.
So where do you want me to start the thread? Doctrine or otherwise here we go? By the way Oak, I heard you got married. Congrats. Why isnt marriage and unmarriage so easy for me? Oh suffering suckatash. Let's go man, I got to bean you.
Yeah me too only I am chugging on my Jack Daniels. lmao
Anyway i will start a thread soon and we will talk, we talked a lot 3 years ago.
(Oakspear = Only athiest I ever met who doesnt stand around and mock God, does this mean he has a little faith?) oooops sorry oak fruedian slip there let that one go.
Perhaps God is not who we or the bible think he is.
I'm not aware of the "bible" being able to think at all. ;) But your point is understood. When you speak of the theology concerning omnipotent and omniscient I think a case can be made (from the Bible) that God has neither attributes. I don't recall which philosopher first promulgated this theology but, I think it was one which has cause great confusion.
There are evil things happening in this world every day, it's cold comfort to hear that God has an unfathomable plan when the evil happening to you.
I'm not sure God's plan is all that unfathomable. We may lack the resolve to have faith in His plan but, that's not the same as not being able to understand it.
Unless you can reconnect with God or Jesus or an angel - like you did when Jesus took you back to see again what happened to you - unless you get an explanation straight from a truly holy source, you will never know WHY these things were allowed to occur. I agree with Dan. Seek out your answer in the same way that you were blessed to revisit the incident.
And if this does not come around for you, if you can't reconnect in this way, then you must accept that we don't think the thoughts of God ... Yet He is still all good and all knowing. Shoot, if we did think His thoughts, guess what that would make us. God!
I am in awe of your continued love for Him, despite your trauma and despite your questioning. I promise you that you WILL understand someday. If it happens soon, let us know!
With "God" treated as some separate entity from one's self, it is no wonder he is unreachable for some. The auto biography of the soul is partly in the bible from Genesis 1:1, just what was being spoken into being here?
And so the question of 'why' do these things happen. Free will, my foot, it's built into us, what we do with it is already incorporated into us good and bad. Why do you think they ate of the tree? And where do you think that tree is?
Anyway, I can see that God doesn't need a rose petal in heaven, he does not injure his kids JUST to help other injured kids, but where is he during a crime?
He never leaves us.
So, does he sit there watching?
Cause I have aproblem with that kind of (lack) of protection.
Are there heavenly rules where the devil has reign, when it is his thing, & the angels have to just sit there?
Cause if I were an angel and saw a priest about to "take" an alter boy, I'd trip him, make his zipper stick, have the boy's mother show up -- I would do something. So, I can only figure they must not be allowed. But being as GOD makesthe rules, I would have to ask, if you knew these laws would cause such pain why did you make or enforce them?
Where are you and what do you do during the commision of a crime?
Yes Sky, although Oak is no longer a Christian, he has always been polite to my beliefs and kind toward the majority of x-wafers. When faced with some unusual ideas, like a poster a few years back, he took off the gloves -- but so did the Christians. Hi Oak, nice to see you.
Sorry, another thought, could it be sin that sets up the barrier?
Okay, Quietly thinking and asking God…. (You suggested Larry, and I did it again)
Perhaps, the reason the heavens do not SPRING into action is they have to be asked…
Otherwise it is interference and THAT violates free will.
I did not ask Jesus to help me in the woods, I think he warned us via Steven, but I did not say, “Jesus help me!”
Just like our Government. During the Katrina nightmare the mayor did not follow protocol and ASK for the government to get involved, so they didn’t, Ray Nagin did not ASK, and those were the laws in place. Then, he blamed everyone else but HE did not do the necessary steps.
Neither did I AND I blamed God for his inaction!
I did not ASK, or speak it from the spiritual realm to this one. If they were there and inactive, it is because I did not ask. They NEVER leave or forsake, but they do NOT violate free will.
I did not ask!!! There seems to be asking, believing, and speaking going on all over the Bible which apparently is the currency to bring things from the supernatural world INTO the natural.
Look how this goes, just a few places:
Mathew 7
7 ASK, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ASK bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ASK a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ASK him?
Psalm 91
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 4:1 KJV Chapter
Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psalm 17:6 KJV Chapter
I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psalm 31:17 KJV Chapter
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 50:15 KJV Chapter
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psalm 55:16 KJV Chapter
As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psalm 91:15 KJV Chapter
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 118:5 KJV Chapter
I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
WOW
So, he is there at the crime site.
He needs to be invited into action.
Sickness may require some additional stuff, I am still looking at that stuff --- still questing
When I was in the RV and VPW was naked and asked me to do something, I wasn't about to do, I asked God in my head for help. Mrs. W walked in and broke the tension, and although VP asked me not to move, I left.
Okay, Quietly thinking and asking God…. (You suggested Larry, and I did it again)
Perhaps, the reason the heavens do not SPRING into action is they have to be asked…
Otherwise it is interference and THAT violates free will.
I did not ask Jesus to help me in the woods, I think he warned us via Steven, but I did not say, “Jesus help me!”
Just like our Government. During the Katrina nightmare the mayor did not follow protocol and ASK for the government to get involved, so they didn’t, Ray Nagin did not ASK, and those were the laws in place. Then, he blamed everyone else but HE did not do the necessary steps.
Neither did I AND I blamed God for his inaction!
I did not ASK, or speak it from the spiritual realm to this one. If they were there and inactive, it is because I did not ask. They NEVER leave or forsake, but they do NOT violate free will.
I did not ask!!! There seems to be asking, believing, and speaking going on all over the Bible which apparently is the currency to bring things from the supernatural world INTO the natural.
Look how this goes, just a few places:
Mathew 7
7 ASK, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ASK bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ASK a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ASK him?
Psalm 91
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 4:1 KJV Chapter
Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psalm 17:6 KJV Chapter
I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psalm 31:17 KJV Chapter
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 50:15 KJV Chapter
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psalm 55:16 KJV Chapter
As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psalm 91:15 KJV Chapter
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 118:5 KJV Chapter
I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
WOW
So, he is there at the crime site.
He needs to be invited into action.
Awesome insight Dot! Thanks so much for sharing your journey with us.
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Shifra
Dot,
I have no answers for you. Only a question. Nowadays ... can you be around flannel, look at Kiefer Sutherland, refrain from washing your hands, ignore those smells? Just wondering if by re-living the event ... did it help?
I have been guided through some memories by my therapist (not like a movie, though). These were things I never forgot, things I remember clearly, but had not pieced together correctly - like how one event was related to another event. She has helped me to explore how these patterns even went back two or three generations in my family. Now instead of my weird disconnected thoughts of isolated incidents, I see a bigger picture, so it makes some sense to me. It takes away the blame and leaves me with a more peaceful perspective, sad, but peaceful. So ... for me ... it helped.
I don't know where God was when you got hurt. I'm sorry this happened to you. When my kids were little and they would ask me hard questions about God, I would tell them to never forget the question, and to ask Him when they meet him someday.
Love to you. -Shifra
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rascal
Not in the slightest.
I wonder if it operates like in the stories frank peretti tells. In the spiritual battles that he depicts...the spiritual beings are engaged in war all around us...the devil and his spirits are at work...causing division, strife, injustice.... .the angels, if you will..only have the power to act when energized by prayer...hard to explain really, but make for some interesting perspective being told alm,ost as if looking at it from the angels pov.
I don`t know dot, I went through the same questions to the point of a chrisis in my faith when contemplating why God would allow me to be sucked in to a group led by ravening wolves....
WHy couldn`t he lead me to a wholesom group where my efforts and sacrifice would have been of benefit?
I only know that he has made himself known to me in an unmistakable way on more than one occasion...that he has been there to pick up the shattered pieces time and again....
I don`t know why you were hurt as a little girl...I am so sorry.
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anotherDan
Dot, your story and your quest touch me deeply. As rascal recently wrote on another thread, these things take time. I have had many of the same questions you're asking. Locally, a lot of the believers have been involved in exactly that type of "inner healing," and though I don't understand a lot of things, I just thought I'd pass on that a number of friends I know have simply asked him. It's the next layer of the onion, so to speak. The answers I have heard have been surprising, but I don't offer them here. You need to hear directly from the Lord. There's no other way.
I do hope that you successfully beat any idea that you may share any of the blame (i.e. because you didn't leave when you were warned), and I pray that you find your answer from God as to "where He was" during the crime.
May I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing? Some may see it as blasphemy of sorts to "challenge" God as Job did and as the Psalmist did. I can see that POV, but I can also see that when we get honest enough about how we really feel, the Lord may step in with exactly what we need. There are a number of incidents in my personal life that seems as if I was left unprotected. There is a lot of unfairness in the world... everyone knows that... the victims of 911 and Columbine and countless others.
I do believe the Bible has answers to your questions, but they don't come with a systematic theology, they come when the spirit guides us into all truth. This is Jesus, the risen Lord. Was it "him" that you saw? Or did you put him there? I think it was "him," but I cannot say for sure. My encouragment would be to ask him.
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cman
These may help you Dot, Though I'm not saying what I agree to at this point.
http://www.gurus.com/dougdeb/Courses/bests...hner/BTmain.htm
http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Happen-G...e/dp/0380603926
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Dot Matrix
Here is the thing:
I am delighted that God allowed me to see what made me a freaking lunatic when it came to hating flannel and the rest, I would be almost tranced at the smell of Clorox and freaked by Elmer’s glue – you can figure out what it represented…
So, therefore there was much UNDERSTANDING that came from that trip with the Lord. And I knew if I focused on the WHY’s it would bring up anger. But this poster friend contacted me and just kept asking about where was Jesus and she did NOT understand how he could do nothing.
And truly, I have never had that answered either.
I think having that question looming over me, makes me DEEP down inside, NOT trust God/Jesus completely. After all, if he LOVED me why didn’t he stop it? And if Jesus was there, how could he DO nothing? I would have helped him. So, that makes me a better protector, somewhere in my thinking, than he is. So, in turn, I apparently, do not let go and let God, because he did such a .... poor job of it back in the woods.
Does that make sense, so there is this part of me, who TRUSTS him, but a small child who surfaces and says, “he did not do such a great job when you were 6.”
That memory, is my enemy to complete faith, I believe. And to have people tell me, he allowed it so you can help others this happened to, is such a weak reason, I cannot believe GOD, in his wisdom, would have to have me attacked to help others who were.
That is lame.
That would be like me pushing you down and having your knee bleeding, so I can show others how wonderfully I administer a band aide on their bleeding knees.
The quest, (with the STILL unsatisfied hunger I have to know my God), has brought up areas with which I am having trouble dealing.
Cman – I read that book about 12 years ago, I think he is also grabbing at answers that seem lame to me. It was a rabbi wasn’t it that wrote it? To me the book just kept saying, “Bad things will happen to you”. No offense, and I appreciate YOU and your help, but I know that… I just do not understand, a GOD whose nature it is to LOVE me, can allow that to happen. And that, like Rascal says, does not even cover the quest to find him which ends into a soul sucking sex-cult.
Were we not taught that if we ask God for an egg he would not give us a scorpion? So, either he gave us a scorpion, OR he told us to get out and we did not listen. The latter, I can buy. As I did not listen in the woods AND I did not listen to LEAVE TWI when I saw the red flags. I can blame MY humanness rather than think God allowed it to happen to HELP others….
Another Dan – I do blame myself for NOT leaving the woods, and I talked 5 year-old Karen into staying with me. I AM to blame for not leaving. I am not to blame for the pigs attacking me. Thank you for your kindness, and I do not think that a 6 year-old-girl should have THAT happen because she wanted to play "tea party" a few more minutes." So, I agree with you there.
Maybe, I need to ask God for forgiveness for my inability to FOLLOW directions – that makes more sense, than the loving God who lets it happen for future Glory for himself…
I cannot eat that meal… ya know?
I just want to know WHERE he is during the commission of the crime? Loving with me as they pin me to the ground and I cry in horror? Why didn't he have a tree fall on them and stop them? My agnostic-earthly-father would have done better than this.
Apparently, I have some anger issues with heavenly father…
****
“If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?” (Luke 11:11-13)
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Larry N Moore
Dot, perhaps you should re-read the book of Job. And then read it again and again. There must be a reason why God would have had Job written. Perhaps it was written to address questions such as yours and therefore the answers are found therein.
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Dot Matrix
Speaking of the devil coming along and trying to ruin a life (Job)
There was a speaker at the conference I went to-
She went into how the devil does not have foreknowledge, but she believes, the devil can see “family” characteristics in a person and go after them in youth to steal their ministry.
She said something like, “My family is loud and comical. They are funny and great Irish storytellers. If you saw me out, and I was still a stranger, but you knew my family, you may approach me and say, “Are you an O’Malley?”
Like wise, the devil sees a bright, sparkly kid, who loves vacation Bible school, he reads the signs (characteristics of the family of God) and sends tormentors and destroyers to crush their ministries BEFORE it begins. Then, she shared how it took her 20-30 years to heal from the incest she experienced.
From there they taught a bit on “sozo” training. It is a class that lets the Lord take you back to places where your life opened to WRONG things and the bricks built on that.
I am signed up for that. I figured the Lord already did that with me, and I know it was him, so these people are probably on the right track.
We will see.
I do not want to be mad at God in this area and “in love” with him elsewhere, it is time God and I hashed this out so it makes sense.
All answers are appreciated, I may not agree, but looking for how you see this stuff.
Sozo (means saved)
They do believe that PTS can limit us (stuff the devil sent in the past)
Introduction. Histrory. Boundaries of protection. Qualifications of a Sozo team member. Structure of teams. Overall view of methods used. Father ladder. Four doors. The wall. Divine editing. Post traumatic stress/trigger mechanisms. Presenting Jesus. Familiar Spirits. Sozo on children. Etiquette. Cautions.
https://secure.healingrooms.com/index.php?s...mp;orderby=name
We are all on a healing Journey-
Where the Holy Spirit desires to make us whole; body, soul, and spirit. To take us further on this healing journey, we have invited a team from Bethel Church in Redding to bring SOZO ministry training to our region. SOZO is a healing ministry to the wounds of the inner person. It specifically addresses wounds that hinder us from moving into our destiny.
SOZO is the Greek word translated saved, healed & delivered
The SOZO ministry is a unique inner healing and deliverance ministry. The main aim is to get to the root of those things hindering your personal connection with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The SOZO team uses six tools:
Father ladder
Presenting Jesus
Four Doors
Trigger Mechanisms
The Wall
Divine Editing
By using these tools and following the Holy Spirit, wounds are healed, strongholds broken, truth revealed, and “doors” closed.
http://www.christianlife.org/index_files/Page370.htm
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Larry N Moore
I think that Jesus, when faced with difficult questions, went to a solitary place and talked things out with God. Sometimes, talking things out openly with others only leads to greater confusion.
Just a thought.
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Dot Matrix
It shall be interesting.
The girl who shared her PTS with incest, says she gets the devil back each time she teaches deliverance. I think that is a great payback.
I just want to know - where God was during the commison of the crime.
And since he is all powerful -- why didn't he use those powers to SAVE us in those crimes.
Larry, your point is well taken. I have asked him for years...
I have gotten no answers as to that portion of the question...
I do not want it to be one of those answers, "It will make sense when we die."
There has to be a reasonable answer.
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Larry N Moore
Dot, one of the first questions I asked myself (when I first became a believer) was: If God knew Lucifer was going to rebel why did He create him in the first place? It took me years to discover a satisfactory answer. I don't recall the specifics of that answer but, it was satisfactory enuf that I never questioned it again. I don't know why God took so long in answering my question. Some questions are still unanswered and I might die before they are. It may not be enuf for you to wait until you meet God face to face but, sometimes the questions themselves can cause one to lose faith. I think that was one of the lessons one can learn in Job. It wasn't until Job focused on others that God was able to turn his captivity and restore to him more than he had before he started focusing on himself.
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Dot Matrix
I understand your point, and perhaps I will one day have the answer. I too asked the Lucifer question along with the Adam and Eve question, if he knew they were going to sin why not create Sally and Sammy instead of them....
I have not focused primarily on myself, but on others for a very long time, I stuffed the "ills" of that event into a black hole. When the Lord showed me, how it tied into my present, I was delivered of things. But when I asked, "where were you?"
I had no understanding. Maybe it will come as I continue forward
When I have people, I speak with about the Lord, ask that question of me, I have to say I do not know. I feel that answer is fodder to build "lack of trust" in God and not the kind of faith needed to live the book of Acts in this day and time.
For instance, one asked me why their daughter died of cancer in childhood... I do not know. They feel if they had POWER they would have saved the child. I tell them God offers us that power and they ask, "where was he then?"
My silent answer, or my I do not know is weak.
I do not think that God needed a rose petal in heaven, I do not think the fear in the heart of the mother killed the child, nor do I feel the child should have believed for herself.... Perhaps, it is the community of the church who has allowed these things to happen out of inaction in the area of miracles.
I had one person tell me, because my mother did not pray for me evey day (her job as a parent) I walked without protection, which opened the door. But then, if God loved me and knew I was his, I really feel he had an obligation as a loving father to protect me. I did the best I could at 6. I went to vacation Bible school, and I asked to go to church with the neighbors as my parents did not go, I sought the Lord.
If I were God, I would have protected that kid, as she tried to find me. I cannot be more loving than God.
I may not ever know the answer. I am walking forward, but this question bothers me in MY life as well as in helping others understand "why?"
I do not know why, and it makes me ineffectual, I think, in helping people close wounds.
Perhaps, I see through a glass darkly
But being as the Bible has the answers to life the answer must be there.
When people tell me they were looking for God (as their earthly father raped them) and they were taken under wing by a priest that then raped them ... I have no answers...
Other than, I know I was told to leave the woods and I missed it. A loving God cannot WANT bad things to happen so he can use my example to help others. He may not want it to happen, but it did. Now that event --he was not part of-- is being healed, I can use it to help others. There is a difference. But I still fell my answer is not solid.
A speaker came in to church and had been sold by his father and raped by 15 men when he was 10 years old.
He told a tale that made me want to vomit.
Then, he said he would go through it all again to be able to help others become free.
He spoke of an 85-year-old woman, who clasped his hands, and shared for the FIRST time she was raped at 5, and now after his testimony she can finally speak it.
He said, he maybe crazy, but that made it worth it.
To me, that was horrid like the rose petal analogy. God, with his kind nature, could have never had that 10-year-old boy be sold and raped so an 85 -year-old woman could be delivered.
Jesus delivered us by his death and resurrection. No little boy has to be raped to save or deliver anyone.
I am just not buying it.
I might buy that the devil is pure evil and God is pure light. God must have provided a way out that we missed.
But I know what you are saying. And I know certain questions just seemed to float around without answers. I just really hope to find the answer to this one.
It is NOT the nature of God to allow someone to be shot in the face so they can help others shot in the face. That may happen, (meaning it may become a useful tool in a testimony) but it cannot be WHY the guy was shot.
Ya know?
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anotherDan
You're doing good, Dot. Ask the man in the sandals.
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Oakspear
Perhaps God is not who we or the bible think he is.
There are evil things happening in this world every day, it's cold comfort to hear that God has an unfathomable plan when the evil happening to you.
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sky4it
Oakspear:
I got a couple questions for you. You prbly dont remember me, but we talked abt three years ago, I have been looking at my Charles Darwin and read some Richard Dawkins(cheez if this guy isnt the nutcracker suit i dunno who is, is this guy bi-polar or have any mental illness you know of? just wondering) I think it would be fun to talk. Anyway we talked abt three years ago and it was fun for me.
So where do you want me to start the thread? Doctrine or otherwise here we go? By the way Oak, I heard you got married. Congrats. Why isnt marriage and unmarriage so easy for me? Oh suffering suckatash. Let's go man, I got to bean you.
Not Aristole
sky4it
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Oakspear
Sorry sky...you're just not making any sense to me...perhaps because it's a Friday night and have not had any beer
But thank you, yes, I did get married.
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sky4it
Oak:
Yeah me too only I am chugging on my Jack Daniels. lmao
Anyway i will start a thread soon and we will talk, we talked a lot 3 years ago.
(Oakspear = Only athiest I ever met who doesnt stand around and mock God, does this mean he has a little faith?) oooops sorry oak fruedian slip there let that one go.
tip a few see you on the flip side.
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Larry N Moore
I'm not aware of the "bible" being able to think at all. ;) But your point is understood. When you speak of the theology concerning omnipotent and omniscient I think a case can be made (from the Bible) that God has neither attributes. I don't recall which philosopher first promulgated this theology but, I think it was one which has cause great confusion.
I'm not sure God's plan is all that unfathomable. We may lack the resolve to have faith in His plan but, that's not the same as not being able to understand it.
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Shifra
Dot,
Unless you can reconnect with God or Jesus or an angel - like you did when Jesus took you back to see again what happened to you - unless you get an explanation straight from a truly holy source, you will never know WHY these things were allowed to occur. I agree with Dan. Seek out your answer in the same way that you were blessed to revisit the incident.
And if this does not come around for you, if you can't reconnect in this way, then you must accept that we don't think the thoughts of God ... Yet He is still all good and all knowing. Shoot, if we did think His thoughts, guess what that would make us. God!
I am in awe of your continued love for Him, despite your trauma and despite your questioning. I promise you that you WILL understand someday. If it happens soon, let us know!
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cman
With "God" treated as some separate entity from one's self, it is no wonder he is unreachable for some. The auto biography of the soul is partly in the bible from Genesis 1:1, just what was being spoken into being here?
And so the question of 'why' do these things happen. Free will, my foot, it's built into us, what we do with it is already incorporated into us good and bad. Why do you think they ate of the tree? And where do you think that tree is?
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Dot Matrix
Anyway, I can see that God doesn't need a rose petal in heaven, he does not injure his kids JUST to help other injured kids, but where is he during a crime?
He never leaves us.
So, does he sit there watching?
Cause I have aproblem with that kind of (lack) of protection.
Are there heavenly rules where the devil has reign, when it is his thing, & the angels have to just sit there?
Cause if I were an angel and saw a priest about to "take" an alter boy, I'd trip him, make his zipper stick, have the boy's mother show up -- I would do something. So, I can only figure they must not be allowed. But being as GOD makes the rules, I would have to ask, if you knew these laws would cause such pain why did you make or enforce them?
Where are you and what do you do during the commision of a crime?
Yes Sky, although Oak is no longer a Christian, he has always been polite to my beliefs and kind toward the majority of x-wafers. When faced with some unusual ideas, like a poster a few years back, he took off the gloves -- but so did the Christians. Hi Oak, nice to see you.
Sorry, another thought, could it be sin that sets up the barrier?
How can the all powerful just sit there?
What keeps him from action?
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Dot Matrix
OMG!!!
Okay, Quietly thinking and asking God…. (You suggested Larry, and I did it again)
Perhaps, the reason the heavens do not SPRING into action is they have to be asked…
Otherwise it is interference and THAT violates free will.
I did not ask Jesus to help me in the woods, I think he warned us via Steven, but I did not say, “Jesus help me!”
Just like our Government. During the Katrina nightmare the mayor did not follow protocol and ASK for the government to get involved, so they didn’t, Ray Nagin did not ASK, and those were the laws in place. Then, he blamed everyone else but HE did not do the necessary steps.
Neither did I AND I blamed God for his inaction!
I did not ASK, or speak it from the spiritual realm to this one. If they were there and inactive, it is because I did not ask. They NEVER leave or forsake, but they do NOT violate free will.
I did not ask!!! There seems to be asking, believing, and speaking going on all over the Bible which apparently is the currency to bring things from the supernatural world INTO the natural.
Look how this goes, just a few places:
Mathew 7
7 ASK, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ASK bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ASK a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ASK him?
Psalm 91
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 4:1 KJV Chapter
Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psalm 17:6 KJV Chapter
I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psalm 31:17 KJV Chapter
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 50:15 KJV Chapter
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psalm 55:16 KJV Chapter
As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psalm 91:15 KJV Chapter
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalm 118:5 KJV Chapter
I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.
WOW
So, he is there at the crime site.
He needs to be invited into action.
Sickness may require some additional stuff, I am still looking at that stuff --- still questing
Edit for a typo
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rascal
that makes sense.
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Dot Matrix
When I was in the RV and VPW was naked and asked me to do something, I wasn't about to do, I asked God in my head for help. Mrs. W walked in and broke the tension, and although VP asked me not to move, I left.
I asked
Then, the escape came
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wrdsandwrks
Awesome insight Dot! Thanks so much for sharing your journey with us.
What a great reminder to ASK.
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