With all respect intended, I am wondering what the point of this thread is, or its sister thread (about what we learned in PFAL), "practical" or otherwise.
Is the purpose of these two discussions to make a statement that TWI was not All bad?
Or is it to help ourselves and other readers to put aside the regrets, and not consider the time and money we invested into PFAL ...and the Ministry as a whole... as being such a waste?
Or is it to unify those who still value the doctrines of the Way?
As I read the various posts, it makes me sad, and after each "benefit" of being in PFAL or TWI which is listed, I find myself responding with:
"Yeah, but was it worth it?"
-and-
"Couldn't we have learned this somewhere else, somewhere safer, somewhere without the bondage?"
No offense sent with this post - I love you guys - just wondering.
I think the other thread dealt with some pretty abstract concepts.
People say, "yeah, I got born again.. got peace.. understand the word.. got a good feeling.."
Whether they are true or not, I feel that a lot of the claims are pretty subjective.
I am looking for something more concrete here. Specifically.. HOW did it help? What did it actually DO?
Did you make a million bucks with "the magic of believing.." or hard work?
On an honest, practical level, about all the class did for me was to encourage me to learn a little Greek.. and figures of speech. My reading comprehension at the time didn't need any help. Any other "benefit" I got from it can only be described in rather abstract terms.
The "other" thread has page upon page of abstract claims, and many equally abstract disclaimers.
I'd just like folks to consider and share what real TANGIBLE "results" they actually got out of da class..
Mr. Hammeroni, I understand what you mean but you must remember that many of the benefits of having faith are in the spiritual realm, that may not necessarily have physical manifestations like money.
"Mr. Hammeroni, I understand what you mean but you must remember that many of the benefits of having faith are in the spiritual realm, that may not necessarily have physical manifestations like money."
There has to be somthing in the senses world ie concrete real take it to the bank proof
Why should there not be?The pie in the sky promises,Yeah they worked for wierwille he marketed it got a sales force he paid peanuts if anything at all and reaped the benefits.Acting like a modern day
daddy warbucks tom turkey strutting his stuff.Him and his cronies on the way of Power for Abundance
Living.
I do not know if studying the bible gives you riches,You got to know God somehow.maybe that was the only way he/she could reach us.I think you got to work damn hard to have somthing,job car house family ect.Perhaps the results are merely still breathing healthy us.
We were sold a promise a quick easy get what you want if you follow us,we will take care of you just give us your bucks.As long as it benefits der vey it is godly and good god will bless you.
You must be kidding! Nobody uses that terminology except Way people. 'Haven't heard it for a long time. Just reading it sorta made me sick.
I do understand what you're saying, Mr. H: Material, concrete, tangible things ... rather than the unmeasurable stuff.
Could it be that one of the Way's errors was their very limited view of how physical and spiritual things can merge and sometimes be the same? Their obsession with DEFINING and DIFFERENTIATING and DIVIDING and PUTTING EVERYTHING INTO A VERY SMALL BOX ... this led to their downfall, for sure. Black-white, right-wrong, godly-devilish, in the Household - marked and avoided.
Spiritual - Senses.
Don't know about you, but my senses are spiritual.
You must be kidding! Nobody uses that terminology except Way people. 'Haven't heard it for a long time. Just reading it sorta made me sick.
well, sowy.. I'll foot the bill for the Immodium..
I was just trying to use language Oldies would understand..
:)
One of the main advertisements for pfal was a promise of material abundance.
"INCREASE (whose?) PROSPERITY"
I think it was purely a bait and switch operation. Promise somebody abundance, and turn around and say "well, it's the SPIRITUAL abundance that is more important anyway.."
Sell that which is concrete, deliver that which is abstract.
Be like promising a paycheck at the end of the week, and then tell the guy on Friday "well, it's not so bad.. you can pretend having all the money you want.."
I get it. I did the same thing. Sorta. They were liars and we were naive.
"Senses Realm" implies inferiority, less-than, beneath. There were other labels like that: "the Natural Man" was one of these. It didn't mean a long-haired, granola eater, like the rest of the world would have interpreted it. It meant a poor ignorant soul who had not accepted VP's program, and would never receive eternal life.
Sorry to get off-track here, but language is just so ... powerful. Amazing how two words, "Senses Realm", can bring it all back - that elitist, self righteous, arrogant flavor that TWI emitted on everything.
Give me the Senses Realm any day, and I'll show you more Spirit than you can shake a wooden spoon at!
There were other labels like that: "the Natural Man" was one of these. It didn't mean a long-haired, granola eater, like the rest of the world would have interpreted it.
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
I think Raf was the first person I heard, way back when, who mentioned that this verse doesn't say
"God approves of us because we rightly-divide God's Word, and that the "showing" isn't to show God
"see, you should approve me."
God loves us unconditionally.
We may put forth to God that He was right to do so, and do this via rightly-dividing God's Word,
as a workman who can take pride in doing his work right,
but this doesn't win God's approval.
I don't remember ANY of this being taught in twi or pfal, IN PASSING even,
but that IS what the verse means.
In pfal, this verse was used to suggest the opposite,
that God cares most that we rightly-divide God's Word, and that other concerns are secondary.
Therefore, we are primarily to learn how to rightly-divide God's Word.
Therefore, the most important thing to do is to take the pfal class and apply ourselves to that,
the most important class, which handles the most important subject,
which you can take now...
I'm thankful to have learned value in the Bible, but this verse was mistaught, AND used deceptively
to puff up the pfal class.
Hey, if you know he broke the law and plagiarized and don't care, well, that's that.
If you understand the issues and made the choice not to care,
then we disagree and that's all there is to it.
NOBODY considers that plagiarism, because that's not what plagiarism IS.
The only time I ever hear THAT discussed is when someone who tries to excuse vpw- and it's always
vpw, never other plagiarists- by changing the meaning of plagiarism, watering it down, and making it
look like plagiarism really isn't a big deal, and that it's ok even if he DID do it.
This is simple.
If you're in a chemistry class, and the teacher teaches chemistry, and even quotes extensively from the assigned textbook,
that is not plagiarism.
If you learn chemistry and can teach someone else, that's not plagiarism.
If you take the chemistry textbook from that other class, cut-and-paste the contents and print out another textbook with the
contents of the first one, and sell it to students in YOUR chemistry class,
with your name as author on the textbook,
THAT is plagiarism.
Written forms of plagiarism are easier to document, especially when a supposed author takes the material from one book
to a LARGE degree, and refuses to cite that book in his own book as a source.
Teachers, to a degree, are EXPECTED to draw from other sources. They are NOT expected to make specific statements
to the effect that THEY are the SOLE AUTHOR of material in their classes. When vpw did that-in pfal- he plagiarized in the
class as well as in the textbooks.
But "needs and wants parallel" are not from "the Word of Truth".
They're not Biblical.
It is possible that-as well as you're able to recite the material and present it to others-
that you don't understand the underlying subjects as well as you think you do.
That's a possibility.
I'm just saying.
The point isn't that I would automatically stand approved before God but that it should be my focus. My focus changed from one to the other and that was liberating. I don't know if I stand approved before God now or not....That is His decision. I know I love reading, working, teaching and ministering what I know and believe. I find myself content. Unlike where I was trying to stand approved before men.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We don't study to be approved to God, we study to show ourselves we are already approved to God, throughout the word it says we are approved, we are only to study so that we may know that! I believe some may need a little more study!!!!
PFAL - not much except when I was deceived by the lies that it was something unique that was given to VPW in a "snowstorm" revelation.
Also I was inspired by what we thought were VPW's discoveries in the bible which were propounded as his scholarly works and that these hidden truths were given to him direct from the mouth of God. Many years later thanks to the infiltration of the Internet it was discovered otherwise.
When I was a believer of the lies and fantasies I suppose it was fun and a little exciting and added value in some ways. A suicide bomber might feel the same way. They really believed in their cause and it was inspirational at the time........until they got blown up.
I would rather have been told the truth in session one. It wouldn't have been that hard for Wierwille to do and I believe he would have had more credibility and success had he done so.
PFAL "senses realm benefits" - To me it's impossible to answer that question because it appears to be hypothetical. I suppose it helped me gain more confidence and sales abilities due to our witnessing. But I think I would have been better served with Dale Carnagie series or Zig Ziglar or other motivational classes. If I hadn't taken PFAL or hadn't joined TWI would I have learned these things and had these experiences anyway? Would I have been more successful or less successful? No way to know. No one can really say.
What I find very interesting.. people generally have a hard time coming up with or defining a real good solid "something" that it did for them.. at least that can be quantified, looked at, or handled..
What did we buy?
It reminds me of an old guy who worked in the store I'm in.. he had his crowning achievment in his old store. This guy was sooo high pressure.. so ruthless, but polite.. a person just couldn't exactly dislike him..
:)
His customer went home. An hour later, the customer called the sales guy.. "Ma*tin, what did I just buy?"
You know... I've thought about this thread for a while now...
I can't really attribute it to PFAL - but many times through the years I have considered all the places I've been and all the people I've met. We're it not for me getting involved with a cult that made me move every year or so, I most likely would have stayed in NYC.
Now, there's no telling what else I may have done. Travel. Meet new and interesting people...
There's no way to measure what could have been.
I can say, that because so many of us had a cult in common, that led us to become acquainted with so many people that normally would not cross our paths, and we associated with many of these folks merely because we had a class in common.
Barriers were broken down. Some of this is good and some of it is bad. Overall, I'm glad for those who have entered my life.
And apparently, there is not a way, or it is rather difficult to measure what WAS- in real concrete practical terms.
I learned about positive thinking through PFAL, and i generally still try yo look on the positive side of a situation.
This is the most concrete claim I've seen made yet.
However, I no longer believe that positive thinking, or renewed mind will prevent or erase tradgedies, or cure depression.
And even that, it is tempered with some realism.
...nope, sorry...there's nothing of benefit that I can think of...nothing at all....the whole thing was a waste of time.
I feel partly that way, mainly because I already had some peace of mind, even in the middle of some rather harsh circumstances to begin with. Maybe this sounds strange.. but circumstances didn't really define how I felt about myself, whether my belief was based on "da word of gawd" or not.
But I think I would have been better served with Dale Carnagie series or Zig Ziglar or other motivational classes. If I hadn't taken PFAL or hadn't joined TWI would I have learned these things and had these experiences anyway?
My version of this scenario is exposure to figures of speech and a little bit of greek. Had I not had some kind of introduction, would I EVER had picked up Bulllinger's work on figures, or other materials? Hard to say, probably not. But the REAL benefits, though documentable, are few.
I was the only guy in Calc I who knew what the little symbols were.. I could even pronounce them properly.
:)
Give me the Senses Realm any day, and I'll show you more Spirit than you can shake a wooden spoon at!
I agree. I think it is only a rather thin skin that houses the spiritual, to begin with.. someday, it very well may all be gone..
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Ham
I think the other thread dealt with some pretty abstract concepts.
People say, "yeah, I got born again.. got peace.. understand the word.. got a good feeling.."
Whether they are true or not, I feel that a lot of the claims are pretty subjective.
I am looking for something more concrete here. Specifically.. HOW did it help? What did it actually DO?
Did you make a million bucks with "the magic of believing.." or hard work?
On an honest, practical level, about all the class did for me was to encourage me to learn a little Greek.. and figures of speech. My reading comprehension at the time didn't need any help. Any other "benefit" I got from it can only be described in rather abstract terms.
The "other" thread has page upon page of abstract claims, and many equally abstract disclaimers.
I'd just like folks to consider and share what real TANGIBLE "results" they actually got out of da class..
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oldiesman
Mr. Hammeroni, I understand what you mean but you must remember that many of the benefits of having faith are in the spiritual realm, that may not necessarily have physical manifestations like money.
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Ham
That's wonderful.. but I'd like to see what it did for people in the senses relm.
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George Aar
"Mr. Hammeroni, I understand what you mean but you must remember that many of the benefits of having faith are in the spiritual realm, that may not necessarily have physical manifestations like money."
In other words, you imagine them...
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oldiesman
In other words, the benefits transcend things like money.
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frank123lol
There has to be somthing in the senses world ie concrete real take it to the bank proof
Why should there not be?The pie in the sky promises,Yeah they worked for wierwille he marketed it got a sales force he paid peanuts if anything at all and reaped the benefits.Acting like a modern day
daddy warbucks tom turkey strutting his stuff.Him and his cronies on the way of Power for Abundance
Living.
I do not know if studying the bible gives you riches,You got to know God somehow.maybe that was the only way he/she could reach us.I think you got to work damn hard to have somthing,job car house family ect.Perhaps the results are merely still breathing healthy us.
We were sold a promise a quick easy get what you want if you follow us,we will take care of you just give us your bucks.As long as it benefits der vey it is godly and good god will bless you.
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Shifra
"Senses Realm"?
You must be kidding! Nobody uses that terminology except Way people. 'Haven't heard it for a long time. Just reading it sorta made me sick.
I do understand what you're saying, Mr. H: Material, concrete, tangible things ... rather than the unmeasurable stuff.
Could it be that one of the Way's errors was their very limited view of how physical and spiritual things can merge and sometimes be the same? Their obsession with DEFINING and DIFFERENTIATING and DIVIDING and PUTTING EVERYTHING INTO A VERY SMALL BOX ... this led to their downfall, for sure. Black-white, right-wrong, godly-devilish, in the Household - marked and avoided.
Spiritual - Senses.
Don't know about you, but my senses are spiritual.
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Ham
well, sowy.. I'll foot the bill for the Immodium..
I was just trying to use language Oldies would understand..
:)
One of the main advertisements for pfal was a promise of material abundance.
"INCREASE (whose?) PROSPERITY"
I think it was purely a bait and switch operation. Promise somebody abundance, and turn around and say "well, it's the SPIRITUAL abundance that is more important anyway.."
Sell that which is concrete, deliver that which is abstract.
Be like promising a paycheck at the end of the week, and then tell the guy on Friday "well, it's not so bad.. you can pretend having all the money you want.."
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Ham
The troubling thing about all this, at least to me..
how many times did I keep going back, buying the same daggone thing.. same class, over, and over, and over again.
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Shifra
OK.
I get it. I did the same thing. Sorta. They were liars and we were naive.
"Senses Realm" implies inferiority, less-than, beneath. There were other labels like that: "the Natural Man" was one of these. It didn't mean a long-haired, granola eater, like the rest of the world would have interpreted it. It meant a poor ignorant soul who had not accepted VP's program, and would never receive eternal life.
Sorry to get off-track here, but language is just so ... powerful. Amazing how two words, "Senses Realm", can bring it all back - that elitist, self righteous, arrogant flavor that TWI emitted on everything.
Give me the Senses Realm any day, and I'll show you more Spirit than you can shake a wooden spoon at!
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Jim
Or Lou Rawls
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frank123lol
Sorry carry over of crap that has been lodged in there for 25 years around said cult
Then 7 years out snd still say that crap.
The only concrete thing I got left from the way is an old wow name tag..
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YID
The point isn't that I would automatically stand approved before God but that it should be my focus. My focus changed from one to the other and that was liberating. I don't know if I stand approved before God now or not....That is His decision. I know I love reading, working, teaching and ministering what I know and believe. I find myself content. Unlike where I was trying to stand approved before men.
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rosestoyou
II Timothy 2:15 KJV
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We don't study to be approved to God, we study to show ourselves we are already approved to God, throughout the word it says we are approved, we are only to study so that we may know that! I believe some may need a little more study!!!!
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igotout
PFAL - not much except when I was deceived by the lies that it was something unique that was given to VPW in a "snowstorm" revelation.
Also I was inspired by what we thought were VPW's discoveries in the bible which were propounded as his scholarly works and that these hidden truths were given to him direct from the mouth of God. Many years later thanks to the infiltration of the Internet it was discovered otherwise.
When I was a believer of the lies and fantasies I suppose it was fun and a little exciting and added value in some ways. A suicide bomber might feel the same way. They really believed in their cause and it was inspirational at the time........until they got blown up.
I would rather have been told the truth in session one. It wouldn't have been that hard for Wierwille to do and I believe he would have had more credibility and success had he done so.
PFAL "senses realm benefits" - To me it's impossible to answer that question because it appears to be hypothetical. I suppose it helped me gain more confidence and sales abilities due to our witnessing. But I think I would have been better served with Dale Carnagie series or Zig Ziglar or other motivational classes. If I hadn't taken PFAL or hadn't joined TWI would I have learned these things and had these experiences anyway? Would I have been more successful or less successful? No way to know. No one can really say.
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Ham
What I find very interesting.. people generally have a hard time coming up with or defining a real good solid "something" that it did for them.. at least that can be quantified, looked at, or handled..
What did we buy?
It reminds me of an old guy who worked in the store I'm in.. he had his crowning achievment in his old store. This guy was sooo high pressure.. so ruthless, but polite.. a person just couldn't exactly dislike him..
:)
His customer went home. An hour later, the customer called the sales guy.. "Ma*tin, what did I just buy?"
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GrouchoMarxJr
Something concrete and practical that I got out of pfal???...
Hmmm...I'm really trying to come up with something here...
...nope, sorry...there's nothing of benefit that I can think of...nothing at all....the whole thing was a waste of time.
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Bramble
I learned about positive thinking through PFAL, and i generally still try yo look on the positive side of a situation.
However, I no longer believe that positive thinking, or renewed mind will prevent or erase tradgedies, or cure depression.
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doojable
You know... I've thought about this thread for a while now...
I can't really attribute it to PFAL - but many times through the years I have considered all the places I've been and all the people I've met. We're it not for me getting involved with a cult that made me move every year or so, I most likely would have stayed in NYC.
Now, there's no telling what else I may have done. Travel. Meet new and interesting people...
There's no way to measure what could have been.
I can say, that because so many of us had a cult in common, that led us to become acquainted with so many people that normally would not cross our paths, and we associated with many of these folks merely because we had a class in common.
Barriers were broken down. Some of this is good and some of it is bad. Overall, I'm glad for those who have entered my life.
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Ham
This is the most concrete claim I've seen made yet.
And even that, it is tempered with some realism.I feel partly that way, mainly because I already had some peace of mind, even in the middle of some rather harsh circumstances to begin with. Maybe this sounds strange.. but circumstances didn't really define how I felt about myself, whether my belief was based on "da word of gawd" or not.
My version of this scenario is exposure to figures of speech and a little bit of greek. Had I not had some kind of introduction, would I EVER had picked up Bulllinger's work on figures, or other materials? Hard to say, probably not. But the REAL benefits, though documentable, are few.I was the only guy in Calc I who knew what the little symbols were.. I could even pronounce them properly.
:)
I agree. I think it is only a rather thin skin that houses the spiritual, to begin with.. someday, it very well may all be gone..
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