I'm not really sure what you are asking -- but I'll take a stab:
Yes the FOS helped me in college literature.
Learning the Greek is always fun for a good conversation topic. Once I was on a ship and we began discussing "Artios" with the Greek captain - he was impressed I knew what it meant.
Knowing where to find things in the bible (although that is a little more from my own studying) but my parents call me to ask where scriptures are located.
When I started tithing regularly, I was finding money everywhere -- on the street, getting tipped (even though I had a job that did not tip) -- that was cool -- I even received some free groceries once.
Probably the earth shattering concrete and practical value for me was learning II Timothy 2:15 in depth.
Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness.
VPW is accussed of plagerism and walking on copywrite infractions. I have never been that concerned with the issue. If someone teaches me chemistry and I work it to the point that I can prove it and make it work for someone else, I don't consider it plagerism.
Disagreeable as that may be to many, I'm thankful VPW had a way to reach ME! ! ! Billy Grahm couldn't, the Pope couldn't, Swaggart and Roberts were out of the question. But the material in the class did! It took years for me to understand needs and wants parallel and a few other topics. Once I did, I could teach it. It's mine to teach because I know it well. I have witnessed to and taught people who became good leaders. Branch and Limb Coordinators with heart.
That's pretty fulfilling for me. And that's practical.
Probably the earth shattering concrete and practical value for me was learning II Timothy 2:15 in depth.
Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness.
===
II Timothy 2:15 KJV
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
I think Raf was the first person I heard, way back when, who mentioned that this verse doesn't say
"God approves of us because we rightly-divide God's Word, and that the "showing" isn't to show God
"see, you should approve me."
God loves us unconditionally.
We may put forth to God that He was right to do so, and do this via rightly-dividing God's Word,
as a workman who can take pride in doing his work right,
but this doesn't win God's approval.
I don't remember ANY of this being taught in twi or pfal, IN PASSING even,
but that IS what the verse means.
In pfal, this verse was used to suggest the opposite,
that God cares most that we rightly-divide God's Word, and that other concerns are secondary.
Therefore, we are primarily to learn how to rightly-divide God's Word.
Therefore, the most important thing to do is to take the pfal class and apply ourselves to that,
the most important class, which handles the most important subject,
which you can take now...
I'm thankful to have learned value in the Bible, but this verse was mistaught, AND used deceptively
to puff up the pfal class.
VPW is accussed of plagerism and walking on copywrite infractions. I have never been that concerned with the issue.
Hey, if you know he broke the law and plagiarized and don't care, well, that's that.
If you understand the issues and made the choice not to care,
then we disagree and that's all there is to it.
If someone teaches me chemistry and I work it to the point that I can prove it and make it work for someone else, I don't consider it plagerism.
NOBODY considers that plagiarism, because that's not what plagiarism IS.
The only time I ever hear THAT discussed is when someone who tries to excuse vpw- and it's always
vpw, never other plagiarists- by changing the meaning of plagiarism, watering it down, and making it
look like plagiarism really isn't a big deal, and that it's ok even if he DID do it.
This is simple.
If you're in a chemistry class, and the teacher teaches chemistry, and even quotes extensively from the assigned textbook,
that is not plagiarism.
If you learn chemistry and can teach someone else, that's not plagiarism.
If you take the chemistry textbook from that other class, cut-and-paste the contents and print out another textbook with the
contents of the first one, and sell it to students in YOUR chemistry class,
with your name as author on the textbook,
THAT is plagiarism.
Written forms of plagiarism are easier to document, especially when a supposed author takes the material from one book
to a LARGE degree, and refuses to cite that book in his own book as a source.
Teachers, to a degree, are EXPECTED to draw from other sources. They are NOT expected to make specific statements
to the effect that THEY are the SOLE AUTHOR of material in their classes. When vpw did that-in pfal- he plagiarized in the
class as well as in the textbooks.
Disagreeable as that may be to many, I'm thankful VPW had a way to reach ME! ! ! Billy Grahm couldn't, the Pope couldn't, Swaggart and Roberts were out of the question. But the material in the class did! It took years for me to understand needs and wants parallel and a few other topics.
But "needs and wants parallel" are not from "the Word of Truth".
They're not Biblical.
Once I did, I could teach it. It's mine to teach because I know it well. I have witnessed to and taught people who became good leaders. Branch and Limb Coordinators with heart.
That's pretty fulfilling for me. And that's practical.
It is possible that-as well as you're able to recite the material and present it to others-
that you don't understand the underlying subjects as well as you think you do.
Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness.
I dunno.. for me, I abandoned friends, family, teachers, school, and academics in general to follow the "word as it has not been known since the first century". That is one way to solve the "conflict"..
it all seemed to be a magic wand, which made all of the problems just go away.
Those in da ministry accepted me for who and what I was, for a while.
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
I think Raf was the first person I heard, way back when, who mentioned that this verse doesn't say
"God approves of us because we rightly-divide God's Word, and that the "showing" isn't to show God
"see, you should approve me."
God loves us unconditionally.
We may put forth to God that He was right to do so, and do this via rightly-dividing God's Word,
as a workman who can take pride in doing his work right,
but this doesn't win God's approval.
I have to disagree with that one because being loved by God and having his approval can be two separate things... God is love, but doesn't approve everything we do.
I do still see study and rightly-dividing the Word of truth as winning God's approval. Its something we can do to be approved of God. And, knowing as we do it that God approves of that activity. Says it right there in the book.
I have to disagree with that one because being loved by God and having his approval can be two separate things... God is love, but doesn't approve everything we do.
I do still see study and rightly-dividing the Word of truth as winning God's approval. Its something we can do to be approved of God. And, knowing as we do it that God approves of that activity. Says it right there in the book.
Session #3 of PFAL (The Integrity Of The Word) has a section called "Listening With A Purpose", as do all the other sessions.
Question #3 poses the question, "How do we stand approved before God?"
Please note that it does not ask "What are the various options by which we may stand approved?".
The correct answer that was given in the instructors syllabus is, "Study(The Word) in order to rightly divide The Word."
I dare say, a good portion of the World's population throughout time were excluded from God's approval due to their inability to read written language [bIF][/b], in fact, question #3 and its subsequent answer are accurate.
Please note that it does not ask "What are the various options by which we may stand approved?".
So what? The PFAL class didn't teach all things that pertain to life and godliness, all possible opportunities where one may be approved and well pleasing unto God. It did however teach that God approves us when we study and rightly divide the Word.
With all respect intended, I am wondering what the point of this thread is, or its sister thread (about what we learned in PFAL), "practical" or otherwise.
Is the purpose of these two discussions to make a statement that TWI was not All bad?
Or is it to help ourselves and other readers to put aside the regrets, and not consider the time and money we invested into PFAL ...and the Ministry as a whole... as being such a waste?
Or is it to unify those who still value the doctrines of the Way?
As I read the various posts, it makes me sad, and after each "benefit" of being in PFAL or TWI which is listed, I find myself responding with:
"Yeah, but was it worth it?"
-and-
"Couldn't we have learned this somewhere else, somewhere safer, somewhere without the bondage?"
No offense sent with this post - I love you guys - just wondering.
But yes I think it was possible to be learned elsewhere. It didn't happen that way for me, but I think it was possible if twi wasn't around years ago.
Today it is possible because of the offshoots, and twi itself (since they say they've changed ).
I, too........think it was possible to have learned elsewhere.
Twi was an offshoot of Rev. Leonard's ministry and work. Later, wierwille grafted in some Stiles and Bullinger appendixes information to lengthen Leonard's class work.....but, in essense, it IS possible to learn from an offshoot.
Not sure if I can agree with that. We know the teachings were not original, but the actual fellowship ministry and work were. Far as I can tell, B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, et al. didn't run or coordinate anything that twi took from or copied.
Not sure if I can agree with that. We know the teachings were not original, but the actual fellowship ministry and work were. Far as I can tell, B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, et al. didn't run or coordinate anything that twi took from or copied.
...the actual fellowship ministry
Too funny, Oldies.
I would be more inclined to say Wierwille had a TEACHING ministry.....teaching truths and other mens' work. As far as "the actual fellowship ministry".......I would render that credit back to God's holy spirit within, or practicing one's Christian faith.
I do still see study and rightly-dividing the Word of truth as winning God's approval. Its something we can do to be approved of God. And, knowing as we do it that God approves of that activity. Says it right there in the book.
It says it right there in the KING JAMES VERSION,
which it does NOT say in the originals,
as holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The word "study" there is an ERROR which exists in the King James Version, but not in other versions.
=======
II Timothy 2:15 KJV
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
You should remember the Greek word "spoudazo", to put forth a diligent effort.
There's nothing about "studying" in it.
That's why the KJV isn't joined by many other versions in this error.
(I imagine there's a few versions that will agree if one looks hard enough.)
One of the problems with the pfal class-and twi in general-
was that when the KJV phraseology matched vpw's theology,
then the KJV phrasing was held to be the true and correct one-
despite existing only in the KJV and not in the Hebrew or Greek.
So, this "study" thing was ADDING a word. And when you ADD to God's Word, do you still have God's Word?
Herr WW, Bumpy has a “feeling” (reminds me of that song...hooked on a feeling, rhymes with believing...) You was real good with those TWI flash the verse memory card games in Kansas?
When you comment on the word “study”, can it not fit into context with all the scripture relating to, “searching the scriptures”?? Jn. 5, Ac 17, l Cor. 2,....I know you know them all, or you wouldn’t be Herr WW. My point is, with your vast Way Word training, you can pick a part most any Bible discussion because you speak Greek, right? But in this case, does it really matter? :)
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
"Present yourself to God"..........is a much better fit in one's WHOLE life and conduct. In this context, it flows with Paul's exhortations to Timothy that follow in chapter 3.
II Tim. 3:10,11a But thou [Timothy] hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me....
Obviously, the "presenting" is in the ACTION of living God's calling and truth.
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Outfield
I'm not really sure what you are asking -- but I'll take a stab:
Yes the FOS helped me in college literature.
Learning the Greek is always fun for a good conversation topic. Once I was on a ship and we began discussing "Artios" with the Greek captain - he was impressed I knew what it meant.
Knowing where to find things in the bible (although that is a little more from my own studying) but my parents call me to ask where scriptures are located.
When I started tithing regularly, I was finding money everywhere -- on the street, getting tipped (even though I had a job that did not tip) -- that was cool -- I even received some free groceries once.
I'll have to think a little more.
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WordWolf
I was a bit directionless.
I could have gotten focus lots of places, but I DID get it there in one step.
I got a reason to just put my head down and slog through everything.
Also, the basic strategy of straightforward reading, while not the be-all and end-all of study,
came in handy for me in school.
So, the latter was practical.
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oldiesman
It helped establish more harmony in our home. *That* was concrete.
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frank123lol
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Ham
Actually, yes.
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YID
Probably the earth shattering concrete and practical value for me was learning II Timothy 2:15 in depth.
Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness.
VPW is accussed of plagerism and walking on copywrite infractions. I have never been that concerned with the issue. If someone teaches me chemistry and I work it to the point that I can prove it and make it work for someone else, I don't consider it plagerism.
Disagreeable as that may be to many, I'm thankful VPW had a way to reach ME! ! ! Billy Grahm couldn't, the Pope couldn't, Swaggart and Roberts were out of the question. But the material in the class did! It took years for me to understand needs and wants parallel and a few other topics. Once I did, I could teach it. It's mine to teach because I know it well. I have witnessed to and taught people who became good leaders. Branch and Limb Coordinators with heart.
That's pretty fulfilling for me. And that's practical.
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WordWolf
===
II Timothy 2:15 KJV
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
I think Raf was the first person I heard, way back when, who mentioned that this verse doesn't say
"God approves of us because we rightly-divide God's Word, and that the "showing" isn't to show God
"see, you should approve me."
God loves us unconditionally.
We may put forth to God that He was right to do so, and do this via rightly-dividing God's Word,
as a workman who can take pride in doing his work right,
but this doesn't win God's approval.
I don't remember ANY of this being taught in twi or pfal, IN PASSING even,
but that IS what the verse means.
In pfal, this verse was used to suggest the opposite,
that God cares most that we rightly-divide God's Word, and that other concerns are secondary.
Therefore, we are primarily to learn how to rightly-divide God's Word.
Therefore, the most important thing to do is to take the pfal class and apply ourselves to that,
the most important class, which handles the most important subject,
which you can take now...
I'm thankful to have learned value in the Bible, but this verse was mistaught, AND used deceptively
to puff up the pfal class.
Hey, if you know he broke the law and plagiarized and don't care, well, that's that.If you understand the issues and made the choice not to care,
then we disagree and that's all there is to it.
NOBODY considers that plagiarism, because that's not what plagiarism IS.
The only time I ever hear THAT discussed is when someone who tries to excuse vpw- and it's always
vpw, never other plagiarists- by changing the meaning of plagiarism, watering it down, and making it
look like plagiarism really isn't a big deal, and that it's ok even if he DID do it.
This is simple.
If you're in a chemistry class, and the teacher teaches chemistry, and even quotes extensively from the assigned textbook,
that is not plagiarism.
If you learn chemistry and can teach someone else, that's not plagiarism.
If you take the chemistry textbook from that other class, cut-and-paste the contents and print out another textbook with the
contents of the first one, and sell it to students in YOUR chemistry class,
with your name as author on the textbook,
THAT is plagiarism.
Written forms of plagiarism are easier to document, especially when a supposed author takes the material from one book
to a LARGE degree, and refuses to cite that book in his own book as a source.
Teachers, to a degree, are EXPECTED to draw from other sources. They are NOT expected to make specific statements
to the effect that THEY are the SOLE AUTHOR of material in their classes. When vpw did that-in pfal- he plagiarized in the
class as well as in the textbooks.
But "needs and wants parallel" are not from "the Word of Truth".They're not Biblical.
It is possible that-as well as you're able to recite the material and present it to others-
that you don't understand the underlying subjects as well as you think you do.
That's a possibility.
I'm just saying.
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Ham
Perhaps..
Just thinking.. a fifty some year old guy, jumping up and down shouting out words like "artios" and "exartizo" is kinda "geeky" is it not?
Actually I didn't learn any real Greek in the class, technically speaking. That came later, looking at Bullinger's stuff, and lexicons..
I was the only guy in math or physics who could properly pronounce the Greek symbols.
people were impressed..
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Ham
I dunno.. for me, I abandoned friends, family, teachers, school, and academics in general to follow the "word as it has not been known since the first century". That is one way to solve the "conflict"..
it all seemed to be a magic wand, which made all of the problems just go away.
Those in da ministry accepted me for who and what I was, for a while.
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oldiesman
I have to disagree with that one because being loved by God and having his approval can be two separate things... God is love, but doesn't approve everything we do.
I do still see study and rightly-dividing the Word of truth as winning God's approval. Its something we can do to be approved of God. And, knowing as we do it that God approves of that activity. Says it right there in the book.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
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waysider
Session #3 of PFAL (The Integrity Of The Word) has a section called "Listening With A Purpose", as do all the other sessions.
Question #3 poses the question, "How do we stand approved before God?"
Please note that it does not ask "What are the various options by which we may stand approved?".
The correct answer that was given in the instructors syllabus is, "Study(The Word) in order to rightly divide The Word."
I dare say, a good portion of the World's population throughout time were excluded from God's approval due to their inability to read written language [bIF][/b], in fact, question #3 and its subsequent answer are accurate.
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oldiesman
So what? The PFAL class didn't teach all things that pertain to life and godliness, all possible opportunities where one may be approved and well pleasing unto God. It did however teach that God approves us when we study and rightly divide the Word.
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Shifra
With all respect intended, I am wondering what the point of this thread is, or its sister thread (about what we learned in PFAL), "practical" or otherwise.
Is the purpose of these two discussions to make a statement that TWI was not All bad?
Or is it to help ourselves and other readers to put aside the regrets, and not consider the time and money we invested into PFAL ...and the Ministry as a whole... as being such a waste?
Or is it to unify those who still value the doctrines of the Way?
As I read the various posts, it makes me sad, and after each "benefit" of being in PFAL or TWI which is listed, I find myself responding with:
"Yeah, but was it worth it?"
-and-
"Couldn't we have learned this somewhere else, somewhere safer, somewhere without the bondage?"
No offense sent with this post - I love you guys - just wondering.
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oldiesman
Bondage, what bondage?
Somewhere safer? The whole world is unsafe.
But yes I think it was possible to be learned elsewhere. It didn't happen that way for me, but I think it was possible if twi wasn't around years ago.
Today it is possible because of the offshoots, and twi itself (since they say they've changed ).
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skyrider
I, too........think it was possible to have learned elsewhere.
Twi was an offshoot of Rev. Leonard's ministry and work. Later, wierwille grafted in some Stiles and Bullinger appendixes information to lengthen Leonard's class work.....but, in essense, it IS possible to learn from an offshoot.
Twi is NOT the originator....but an offshoot.
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oldiesman
Not sure if I can agree with that. We know the teachings were not original, but the actual fellowship ministry and work were. Far as I can tell, B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, et al. didn't run or coordinate anything that twi took from or copied.
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skyrider
...the actual fellowship ministry
Too funny, Oldies.
I would be more inclined to say Wierwille had a TEACHING ministry.....teaching truths and other mens' work. As far as "the actual fellowship ministry".......I would render that credit back to God's holy spirit within, or practicing one's Christian faith.
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oldiesman
Well at least you admit that it was God's holy spirit and not a counterfeit.
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skyrider
Yes, Oldies......I have often said that pfal had much (....60-70%...??) truth in it.
Some of the things that I strongly disagree with:
1) Wierwille's proclamation that "God told me He'd teach me....blah, blah, blah"
2) Wierwille's hi-jacking of Rev. Leonard's class and plagairizing it's content, format, etc.
3) Wierwille's "law of believing" ......one of the premises of his class, blue book.
4) Wierwille's "absent-Christ" doctrine and the doctrinal/practical irreverance of Christ as head of One Body.
5) Wierwille's liberties taken on his private interpretation of certain scriptures.
6) Wierwille's narcisstic-agenda of always wanting to be in the spotlight.
7) Wierwille's manipulation and belittling of others' individuality/ other churches.
8) Wierwille's structuring twi like a pyramid......no accountability.
9) Wierwille's corps indoctrinational process.....it's yes-men mentality and clone-like focus.
10) Wierwille's spiritual and moral compass......was it ever "on-target" at all.
But, hey.......notwithstanding those "biggies" I still believe that the simplicity of Christ reached me IN SPITE OF the dark agendas from hq.
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Jim
Don't shoot a 30 hour training film in 16mm black and white.
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WordWolf
It says it right there in the KING JAMES VERSION,
which it does NOT say in the originals,
as holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The word "study" there is an ERROR which exists in the King James Version, but not in other versions.
=======
II Timothy 2:15 KJV
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NASB
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
II Timothy 2:15 NIV
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
=======
You should remember the Greek word "spoudazo", to put forth a diligent effort.
There's nothing about "studying" in it.
That's why the KJV isn't joined by many other versions in this error.
(I imagine there's a few versions that will agree if one looks hard enough.)
One of the problems with the pfal class-and twi in general-
was that when the KJV phraseology matched vpw's theology,
then the KJV phrasing was held to be the true and correct one-
despite existing only in the KJV and not in the Hebrew or Greek.
So, this "study" thing was ADDING a word. And when you ADD to God's Word, do you still have God's Word?
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Bumpy
Herr WW, Bumpy has a “feeling” (reminds me of that song...hooked on a feeling, rhymes with believing...) You was real good with those TWI flash the verse memory card games in Kansas?
When you comment on the word “study”, can it not fit into context with all the scripture relating to, “searching the scriptures”?? Jn. 5, Ac 17, l Cor. 2,....I know you know them all, or you wouldn’t be Herr WW. My point is, with your vast Way Word training, you can pick a part most any Bible discussion because you speak Greek, right? But in this case, does it really matter? :)
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Bumpy
...until you morphed into a squirrel and all hell broke lose!
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skyrider
"Present yourself to God"..........is a much better fit in one's WHOLE life and conduct. In this context, it flows with Paul's exhortations to Timothy that follow in chapter 3.
II Tim. 3:10,11a But thou [Timothy] hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me....
Obviously, the "presenting" is in the ACTION of living God's calling and truth.
:)
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