Yeah, the weekend lockdown had to have been your third year, because if I'd been there there would've been TWO nervous breakdowns.
Blindfolds and handcuffs. That's right.
What pizzed me off was that if this was to teach us to stand boldly and fearlessly upon the Word no matter what anyone did to us, why didn't they use RA and HY and LG and some of the other leadership as examples? Isn't leadership supposed to be in the front lines? I do recall they were 3rd year FLO who were tortured. I asked GP, my house coordinator who was a 3rd year FLO what in he11 that was all about and got some stupid answer like "It's very spiritual. I don't expect YOU to fully understand it." She once told me that the moment she met me she decided to make it her personal business to "break me."
I always despised the guy. Always. And they treated him like some sort of celebrity.
I would just love to see some SOB show me book, chapter and verse to justify what they did to us.
I also remember the middle of the night assembly. I think MC who was going to marry BSS got canned at that one. At least I think he talked back a great deal. I can't remember if Mr. Garden and I were engaged at the time, I think we were almost engaged. I rode in to Cols to work with the future first lady of The Way of Illinois and we stopped some nice place for breakfast. We had to write a little essay or something begging to be allowed to stay for more red tape, beaurocracy and BS in our lives. Classic manipulation.
Our LC our second (and your third) years should rot in he11 for what he put people through. HY I can kind of excuse, because as I recall he was somewhat uncomfortable after things got really rough. Didn't the guy kind of shove and slap at his victims?
It didn't quite break Mr. Garden, though. I'd love to see anyone try that on him now!
But I think it helps explain some of my fears of weird teachings a la "it is written" and "if you don't do _________________, God won't even spit in your direction". After all those years of careful training that the teacher, whomever that might be, holds God in a box and won't let you see Him unless you obey.
I learned so much in FLO, it's a wonder I can think at all! (to paraphrase Paul Simon).
I have to stop now. This is making me tearful and nauseated.
Another time at an advanced class grad meeting we were yelled at for not washing our "f-ing" cars. Another time, when my 30 year-old car wouldn't start, I was yelled at for not getting it all checked out ahead of time.
When I read this I could not help but to think of Adam Sandlers song "Ode To My Car" I don't know how to paste it here but I would if I could.
TWI was masterful at keeping wayfers poor and the upper eschelon rich. My first year after graduation I worked as an Insurance agent pretty much part time. I became the number 2 agent in the company my second year with them. THis didn't go over to well with certain upper minor deities. So the work I needed to do for our area Increased dramatically. I was successful at both and was soon fired for not being spiritual enough to see the spiritual barrier thaty was around the city that only a gift ministry could handle. Of course I made it a point to teach everyone in my twig that if someone says something check it out - it might NOT be in the Bible. I used a spiritual barrier as an example. trust me, it didn't go over well.
Haha - I remember being told I needed a new car too! That being a steward of God I should portray myself as an Ambassador. But then I was one of the only people with a car. LOL. Funny song Out There:
The sawed-off little sumb!+ch they used in our corps and others was Bi!! Mayz (alternate spelling) if I remember correctly. Cruel man...handpicked by vpw...to break, humiliate and control "his kids".
vpw publicly screaming at lcm? No kidding. Feel free to elaborate.
Advanced Class, March 1978 at Virginia Beach, VA, as I recall there was some sort of a public question and answer session and a woman got up and asked Craig a question. (Dr. Wierwille was running the class and Craig was his assistant). Craig answered the question, and Wierwille hammered him about the answer he gave.
Sorry but I can't remember any more about that story other than getting the impression that it was part of a training process.
Was he short and squat, kind of like a defensive football player? Was his wife petite, with long blonde hair and a perennial suntan and big smile? Was he from Columbus, Ohio. What did he do to you? You can PM if you prefer.
I still get queasy thinking about it. I suffered along with the chosen few. And what really makes me ill is that NOT A ONE OF US stood up and said "Stop it! These folks are good people! What are you doing? Show me book, chapter, and verse where it says this is okay with God."
They did this to the WC. What was the purpose? Did they ever tell you?
Oh, yeah, and Waysider, what on earth gave you the idea you were allowed to THINK?
Personally I think that most of the "confrontations" between LCM and veepee were staged... got no proof, but it happened on too many occasions IMO for it not to be...
WG, I'm glad you came to FW when you did... as only you know here, that was a critical time in my life... thank you again.
You tell um potato - I LIKE your attitude - I was like that in the Corps too when they wanted me to work for free instead of taking care of my family, laundry, dishes, meals, spending time with my kid, retemories LOL
you know, my car is an f-ing mess. I have 2 high energy kids and lots of dang to deal with, and my car is full of trash and it smells bad. I clean it out every couple of months. WHAT FREEDOM! THANK GOD! F U ALL YOU ANAL RETENTIVE PERSONALITY DISORDERED FREAKS WHO WASTED MY TIME OVER TRIVIALITIES LIKE DIRT IN MY CAR! WHO CARES ANYWAY!
it's my car. don't ride in it if you don't like it.
Thank you oldiesman. My motto in life is: What you aren't afraid of losing can't control you. And since the only thing I'm afraid of losing is God - well that says it all!!! :wub:
Do any of your earlier WC remember anything like this being standard operating procedure as part of your training? Do any of you remember hearing about that POW training experience in california that LCM was supposedly the only one who "survived," figuratively speaking?
Martindale.......supposedly *the only one who survived that POW training experience.*
I think this man was full of himself. In fact, it was this POW training experience where martindale and my future wife-to-be hitch-hiked together......UNTIL martindale abandoned her at a truck stop near Oklahoma City. She found a ride for them just about the same time that he found a ride. So, in his great wisdom, he said......"You take your ride and I'll take mine and I'll see you in Californina."
And, martindale later went on to be the Corps Director...............
Do you know any more of the details? Do you remember who led the torture sessions? Someone told me a rumor they were tied to stakes and left at night or some such stuff. Of course this may be a wild rumor burning out of control.
The session I described was very successful from the leadership point of view. It didn't take much after that to break people down to the Listen-Remember-Obey mode of thinking (if you want to call it thinking). I have an excellent memory and Waysider ain't all that bad, either, and neither one of us can remember the sadist-in-chief's name though both of us can remember his face and his wife's face. I remember wearing off-white knit pants and a really cute little floaty top, light blue and trimmed with lace, short sleeves and a V-neck. I don't remember the people who were pulled up front and sadistically treated, except for the one I married, who also has an excellent memory and doesn't think this ever happened. Waysider can correct me if he remembers I'm wrong, but I think we were locked into the meeting room during the sessions.
This traumatized about 42-50 adults. It is unbelievable that an organization which claimed to be the one true representative of God Almighty and used a phrase Jesus Christ used to describe himself (I am The Way.....) as its name, would permit these tactics. I don't always agree with everything my church does, but I am totally sure neither of our pastors would let this in a country mile of their people.
I still, after 30+ years, get the shivers thinking about it. If anyone out there can remember any more about it, I'd love to see you post on this thread.
hi watered garden!...........and skyrider!.....and all!!!
john som---ille has a phd in physical education......he has been married to mary wie===lle for over 30 years now.......he is a high ranking officer in the usmc reserves, (if he is not yet retired from the reserves).......he was an assistant to woody hayes at ohio state university when woody was the head football coach there......his brother tim and john started the way's "work" in north carolina at ecu.......john is a viet nam veteran......vic used to tell us that john volunteered for duty in viet nam in order to prove that the revelation and power manifestations are real and work as vic taught them to wayfers in the advanced class.....john is a decorated officer for his outstanding military service in viet nam, as well as numerous other outstanding achievements in the marine corps......he has also worked in an advisory capacity with the idf.....israeli defense forces....in israel.....work for which he was recognized again by the u.s. military, as well as the idf.......i first met john in 1972 when several of us way east branch coordinators were invited to hq by vic after the firing of steve heefner during the ac in rye, ny in april of 72...........to see vic's "heart" and the "heart of the ministry" so's we would stick with twi and not "run off" with heefner and others after the "not so subtle" power play by twi in it's complete takeover of the way east..........at that time, john was in charge of "college outreach" for twi and was the man who designed the physical trainng program that was part of the corps training back then...........he was definitely a "man's man" during the entire time that i knew him back then.......absolutely respected by us corps "kids" and, generally respected throughout the ministry as far as i could tell............he also coordinated twi's original holy land tours.......and led several of them with great success and excitement back in the early 70's.........my personal experiences with john were always positive and i held in him in high regard, as i do to this day....although my last personal contact with him was back in the late 70's......
john was his own man.......during my first year in da corps (the way corps, that is)....we took his class on old testament history.....which was excellent btw......and i began to see the first glimpses of his conflict with vic..........glimpses that became less and less private as that year unfolded..........he had a "knack" for really pizzing vic off with his unflinching honesty and "sarcastic" humor in the face of some really intense "facemeltings" directed at him by vic, both pubicly and privately!!.........vic would criticize john publicly about something he would teach or say during the old t class, and john would throw it right back at vic.......it was great to observe!!!!..........vic often publicly ranted about john's "ego problem" with vic..........and i mean rant!!.....you know, that purple-faced, neck-vein popping kinda rant that only vic could perform!!.........made the dancing prez look like a mickey mouse version of ranting!!..........my take on these rants??.......vic was deeply jealous of john's obvious intelligence and the real achievements of john academically, as a true military "hero", and at his refusal to compromise his own integrity as a "man's man" in the face of the vicious verbal assaults and personal attacks from his father-in-law!!..........he was jealous of john because john was real, not just a pompous phoney like his father-in-law!.....vic feared john, because, in spite of vic's best shots, vic could not break his son-in-law!!...i had several profound, personal conversations with john about my observations of his relationship with vic.......honest, probing and quite revealing conversations for which i am still grateful today to john for engaging in with me.........
in 1974, john left hq and set up the total fitness instiute (tfi) in north fork, ca with the financial assistance of j--n s. l--n and the "blessing" of vic..........tfi was to become the real testing and training ground for the way corps folks.........the experience which would really show vic who his toughest future leaders and workers would be..........it was also open to public sessions which were like twi's version of outward bound, and it rapidly gained a popularity among the corps and non-corps attendees as a real test of a believer's mettle when it came to operating all-9-all-the- time..........it was the precursor to LEAD, which was the vic perverted and controlled version of what john had in mind for tfi!.........it was during the tfi sessions of the spring of 1975 that vic first "ordered" john do the pow camp thingy...... i was on the field in my interim year corps assignment (we were the first corps to have one).......and my lc was one of the attendees at the tfi session where martindale and other "top" corps leaders were given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word.........it was a very real experience of what a pow camp might have been like if those circumstances regarding the fall of the usa had been true..........martindale was not the "only survivor" of this pow camp passionplay..........he started an "escape attempt" type of maneuver during which he caused the "deaths" of most of his fellow "prisoners" by his feeble attempt at being the hero/leader........a maneuver for which he was roundly criticized in his final tfi evaluation which was written by john som---ille on each of the participants..........there were several participants who were indeed "broken" during this experiment.......and their "reward" was humiliation in front of the corps and they were never really "trusted" again with choice leadership assignments because of their proven weakness in the face of the enemy!!!...........the participants were sworn to secrecy.....so that the pow experiments could continue unhindered during future tfi sessions..........but, as you can tell from the amount of info i gathered from my lc upon his return, the secret got out fast.........but the pow experiments continued through the tfi session of that spring and summer until october, 1975..........when there were some serious physical and psycho-emotional injuries that occurred during tfi...........all of which, vic blamed on the "total lack of believing" on the part of those "injured"............i did my tfi trip in november, 1975..........and although several of the pow situations were thrown at us.....the pow scenario itself had been watered down so as to avoid any further injuries.........
the tfi experience for the in-rez corps involved the following "rules"..........each tfi group was to hitch-hike to and from north fork in "couples", that is, you chose your travelling partner from among the group........we were encouraged not to choose our spouses, but my spouse was under 20 at the time so i refused to let her go with anyone else..........each person was given a $20 bill so as not to get busted for vagrancy if stopped or questioned by state or local police while hitch-hiking.........it was made plain that if you did not arrive at north fork with the entire $20 you would be immediatley turned back to hitch-hike home.......or, if you made it back without the $20 intact you would receive a failing final evaluation.........you were allotted 72 hours maximum to make the trip each way.......if you took more than 72 hours to get there, you were again immediately turned back to hitch-hike home, refused participation in the tfi program......if you took more than 72 hours to get back home, you again were giving a failing final evaluation.........my wife and i were dropped off at a truck stop near I-75 and it's juncture with I-70 at about 6pm and we then had 72 hours to make our way to north fork, ca........by hook or by crook...........we made it in 70 hours.........no sleep, no stopping, both our $20 bills in pocket!!...........i remember how sad i felt for the unfortunate few who took longer than 72 hours to get there........i literally cried as i watched them turned around after their grueling trip out to ca, no food, no rest.......just a facemelting phone call from vic telling them they flunked and that they better make it home on time or they'd be kicked out of the corps!!..........i watched 6 people have to go through that bs!............
before i left for tfi, i was called to vic's office for a "meetring" with him.........we sat out on the porch by his office, smoking a couple of cigarrettes..........vic asked me to keep our conversation "confidential".........he said that he knew that i had become "close" to john som---ille, during my first year in-rez........he said he knew that i could "talk with john "man-to-man"..........he said that john's "unbridled ego" was going to ruin tfi.........he just was not "seeing" what father wanted vic to do with tfi.......he said john was once again "fighting him" (vic) on the "guidance" god was providing........and he asked me to try to talk with john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law, hoping that maybe i could "get through to him"..............so, on a cliff overhanging the sierra nevada mountains, having just successfully scaled jackass rock, with only john and jack wilson with me (i had been "banned" from the group assault on jackass rock the day before for taking an "unauthorized picture" of two lindas relieving their bladders behind a log while we were all tied together by a single rope for the day's hike to the foot of jackass rock.........lol!).........while jack was busy preparing for the descent, i had my "man-to-man" talk with john..........one of the greatest conversations i ever had with any wayfer in my life, brutally honest, refreshingly quiet in tone with mutual respect........needless to say,.....i never really "got through" to john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law!!..........by the end of my first question and his respnse, i saw there was absolutely no need for me to..........there was not a thing wrong with john's ego..........the problems were with the ego of his father-in-law!!!...........
soooo,...........what's my point???...............the entire confrontation session you poor FLO folks had with that guy who probably lived in a van down by the olentangy river was just another perverted distortion of what had been a good idea of john som---ille's that was perverted, twisted, and morphed into another psychosocial torture mechanism designed by vic to break down and control the most willing and faithful followers of his way in ohio..........arranged by a lc who was as afraid of the whole thing as you were, but who was more afraid of what his "father-in-the-word" would do or say if he did'nt carry out his orders!!............i hope your "facilitator" was not bill m--ze.........but it very well could have been..........bill was a terrific dale carnegie isnstructor whom vic "took under his wing" and also eventually destroyed what started out as a unique and valuable service to the corps........bill was tied to vic all the way back to the chimes hour youth caravan daze........he was almost like an "adopted son" of vic's,.......and we all know too well what that can do to a man!............ sorry for the length of this post.......but the memories sometimes come in waves..........................peace.
Yes the doors were locked and someone stood post at them.
I don't think it was ever stated that they were standing guard but that was the impression it gave.
I suppose someone might come along now and say something like," Golly, you could have just left if you didn't like it."
But where were you supposed to go?
We lived in a commune for gosh sakes! In the middle of Nowhere, USA.
Most people's hometowns were hundreds and even thousands of miles away.
And it was made very clear that leaving would be the same as declaring yourself a failure and any hopes you had of becoming a leader would be null and void from that moment on.
You know, most people had already "burned their bridges" and had no job prospects awaiting them "back home", very little money and, for the most part, most of us didn't even have cars that could make any kind of lengthy trip.
It would have been a total disgrace to walk away.(and a financial challenge.)
And even if it crossed your mind to try that, how could you be sure you weren't the one who was wrong?
It seems so easy to see the answer when looking at it 30 years later but it was very confusing at the time it was happening.
Edit: Sorry this is out of synch with DWBH's post.
I think the perpetrator was probably the guy DWBH described. Don't know of the folks you mentioned. There could easily have been several individuals "trained" in these techniques and sent forth to "bless the believers."
I think what made this so successful was that we were suddenly threatened, tied up, blindfolded, and tormented by those we TRUSTED. If in fact a Russian invasion had happened and THE ENEMY was after us, our response would have been entirely different. But this was a friend, a fellow believer, another member of the body of Christ. We were not forewarned in any of the three situations, the two I remember, and the one of which Waysider was an unhappy victim. One of the results was to keep us off-balance, uncertain, and wary. We were taught to revere leadership, and here is this "guest speaker," some fellow to be treated with the utmost courtesy and respect, someone to be listened to and trusted, and he ties some of us up, blindfolds us, and screams, curses and pushes and hits. This is the treatment some of us receive from an individual who supposedly represents the Lord Jesus Christ. Funny, I don't remember reading in the Bible that Jesus did this to any of his apostles.
Just another example of TWI taking over the rightful position of Jesus in his followers' lives. I love that bumper sticker, "Jesus, please save me from Your followers."
The lockdown at Limb your third year was basically a kidnapping. Unfortunately, it would have been unthinkable to call 911 and have the Delaware County Sheriff's Officers surrounding the building, and see JM led away in cuffs. Nice fantasy, though.
As Waysider mentioned in an earlier post, we were pretty isolated from the rest of the world. We were being trained to be leadership in the State of Ohio. Thirty-two years ago, I was a trusting soul, somewhat naive, and believed that all TWI leadership were placed in their positions by revelation from God. Iit was my personal responsibility before God to listen to that individual very attentively, with completely undivided attention; to remember their sacred words, and to obey without question, the first time every time. So if a most exceedingly great and mighty man of God thinks I am worthless and useless, then I pretty much have to agree.
The first incident, the one I described, was probably a very watered-down version of brainwashing such as was found in the infamous prison camps of North Viet Nam and Nazi Germany. Pick a few of the strongest, make the entire prison camp watch them being tortured, and you'll have no problem with the rest of the prison population.
And, the chances that the prison population will stage an instantaneous rebellion in that situation are very slim indeed, or it wouldn't be happening in the first place.
Remember, we were TRAINED to obey leadership. We were TRAINED that the MOG is always right. To question the MOG is to question God. I can only speak for myself, but I spent two years in Ohio Fellow Laborers, and of those 24 months, I would say about 22 of them I was scared to death. The last two I was engaged to be married and didn't really give a rat's nose.
Remember too, that as Waysider said, we had for the most part menial jobs, crappy cars, and lived 6 to an apartment in Delaware, Ohio. If you didn't own your own vehicle and have it in decent working order, and you were given your marching orders, which meant "out within 24 hours" you were well and truly screwed. What 20-something wants to call Mommie and Daddy in the middle of the night and say "come get me."? Some of us had family in TWI; they would've been ashamed of the failure their kid reflected on them. Some of us had parents who despised TWI and would have never us out of their sight again.
hey there you two buckeye saints!!!..........who were the lc's when you got tortured??........hy?......or, jm?..........just wondering.......................peace.
1975-76 it was HY. 1976-78 (Waysider was there for two years under this guy's "leadership") it was JM, the only man I ever saw drink beer at 9:00 AM. He had it in a coffee cup and I noticed it as I rounded a corner onto a pathway, which he was coming up as I was coming down. I could see right into it, and thought, "Hmmmm.' He must have seen a look on my face because he mumbled some lame excuse. Of course it never occurred to little brainwashed me that he might be an alkie. Wonder if that would explain some of his less appropriate behaviors?
Of the two, I pretty much liked HY, though he let the FL coordinator, a 21-year-old child, do all the dirty work. The future Mr. Garden would've made a great leader for that bunch, because he was honest, genuine, real, and knowledgable of God, kind and loving. But I suppose from that viewpoint someone with a lot more legalism and a lot less lovingkindness would be more what TWI would want.
Now lessee, what good did I get out of those two years? The second best thing that ever happened to me, Jesus being Number One - my husband!
thanks for your answer, WG!.......oh yeah!......jm major alkie and incredibly,....a sleazy womanizer to boot!!!!......always heavily overshadowed by his wife.....a very intelligent and kind lady.......how she chose such a loser is beyond me!!!!........but, at least she eventually freed herself from that horrible bond!......jm was a good guy in ca before entering the 4th corps......but he was way over his head in the corps.......unqualified for any position upon graduation.......as he proved repeatedly........sad..........peace.
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Watered Garden
Yeah, the weekend lockdown had to have been your third year, because if I'd been there there would've been TWO nervous breakdowns.
Blindfolds and handcuffs. That's right.
What pizzed me off was that if this was to teach us to stand boldly and fearlessly upon the Word no matter what anyone did to us, why didn't they use RA and HY and LG and some of the other leadership as examples? Isn't leadership supposed to be in the front lines? I do recall they were 3rd year FLO who were tortured. I asked GP, my house coordinator who was a 3rd year FLO what in he11 that was all about and got some stupid answer like "It's very spiritual. I don't expect YOU to fully understand it." She once told me that the moment she met me she decided to make it her personal business to "break me."
I always despised the guy. Always. And they treated him like some sort of celebrity.
I would just love to see some SOB show me book, chapter and verse to justify what they did to us.
I also remember the middle of the night assembly. I think MC who was going to marry BSS got canned at that one. At least I think he talked back a great deal. I can't remember if Mr. Garden and I were engaged at the time, I think we were almost engaged. I rode in to Cols to work with the future first lady of The Way of Illinois and we stopped some nice place for breakfast. We had to write a little essay or something begging to be allowed to stay for more red tape, beaurocracy and BS in our lives. Classic manipulation.
Our LC our second (and your third) years should rot in he11 for what he put people through. HY I can kind of excuse, because as I recall he was somewhat uncomfortable after things got really rough. Didn't the guy kind of shove and slap at his victims?
It didn't quite break Mr. Garden, though. I'd love to see anyone try that on him now!
But I think it helps explain some of my fears of weird teachings a la "it is written" and "if you don't do _________________, God won't even spit in your direction". After all those years of careful training that the teacher, whomever that might be, holds God in a box and won't let you see Him unless you obey.
I learned so much in FLO, it's a wonder I can think at all! (to paraphrase Paul Simon).
I have to stop now. This is making me tearful and nauseated.
WG
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Out There
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Outfield
Haha - I remember being told I needed a new car too! That being a steward of God I should portray myself as an Ambassador. But then I was one of the only people with a car. LOL. Funny song Out There:
Warning - bad language....but funny.
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tonto
WG and Waysider,
The sawed-off little sumb!+ch they used in our corps and others was Bi!! Mayz (alternate spelling) if I remember correctly. Cruel man...handpicked by vpw...to break, humiliate and control "his kids".
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oldiesman
Edi I love your stuff.
"if you don't like it kick me out."
Advanced Class, March 1978 at Virginia Beach, VA, as I recall there was some sort of a public question and answer session and a woman got up and asked Craig a question. (Dr. Wierwille was running the class and Craig was his assistant). Craig answered the question, and Wierwille hammered him about the answer he gave.
Sorry but I can't remember any more about that story other than getting the impression that it was part of a training process.
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Watered Garden
Tonto--
Was he short and squat, kind of like a defensive football player? Was his wife petite, with long blonde hair and a perennial suntan and big smile? Was he from Columbus, Ohio. What did he do to you? You can PM if you prefer.
I still get queasy thinking about it. I suffered along with the chosen few. And what really makes me ill is that NOT A ONE OF US stood up and said "Stop it! These folks are good people! What are you doing? Show me book, chapter, and verse where it says this is okay with God."
They did this to the WC. What was the purpose? Did they ever tell you?
Oh, yeah, and Waysider, what on earth gave you the idea you were allowed to THINK?
WG
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Tom Strange
Personally I think that most of the "confrontations" between LCM and veepee were staged... got no proof, but it happened on too many occasions IMO for it not to be...
WG, I'm glad you came to FW when you did... as only you know here, that was a critical time in my life... thank you again.
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Edi
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Edi
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skyrider
Martindale.......supposedly *the only one who survived that POW training experience.*
I think this man was full of himself. In fact, it was this POW training experience where martindale and my future wife-to-be hitch-hiked together......UNTIL martindale abandoned her at a truck stop near Oklahoma City. She found a ride for them just about the same time that he found a ride. So, in his great wisdom, he said......"You take your ride and I'll take mine and I'll see you in Californina."
And, martindale later went on to be the Corps Director...............
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Watered Garden
Skyrider,
Do you know any more of the details? Do you remember who led the torture sessions? Someone told me a rumor they were tied to stakes and left at night or some such stuff. Of course this may be a wild rumor burning out of control.
The session I described was very successful from the leadership point of view. It didn't take much after that to break people down to the Listen-Remember-Obey mode of thinking (if you want to call it thinking). I have an excellent memory and Waysider ain't all that bad, either, and neither one of us can remember the sadist-in-chief's name though both of us can remember his face and his wife's face. I remember wearing off-white knit pants and a really cute little floaty top, light blue and trimmed with lace, short sleeves and a V-neck. I don't remember the people who were pulled up front and sadistically treated, except for the one I married, who also has an excellent memory and doesn't think this ever happened. Waysider can correct me if he remembers I'm wrong, but I think we were locked into the meeting room during the sessions.
This traumatized about 42-50 adults. It is unbelievable that an organization which claimed to be the one true representative of God Almighty and used a phrase Jesus Christ used to describe himself (I am The Way.....) as its name, would permit these tactics. I don't always agree with everything my church does, but I am totally sure neither of our pastors would let this in a country mile of their people.
I still, after 30+ years, get the shivers thinking about it. If anyone out there can remember any more about it, I'd love to see you post on this thread.
WG
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coolchef
wateredgarden
did that couple you mentioned ever spend a year in maine? eddie and nicky?
i also "heard" about the stake and chain thing but don't know for sure but would not be suprized!!
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi watered garden!...........and skyrider!.....and all!!!
john som---ille has a phd in physical education......he has been married to mary wie===lle for over 30 years now.......he is a high ranking officer in the usmc reserves, (if he is not yet retired from the reserves).......he was an assistant to woody hayes at ohio state university when woody was the head football coach there......his brother tim and john started the way's "work" in north carolina at ecu.......john is a viet nam veteran......vic used to tell us that john volunteered for duty in viet nam in order to prove that the revelation and power manifestations are real and work as vic taught them to wayfers in the advanced class.....john is a decorated officer for his outstanding military service in viet nam, as well as numerous other outstanding achievements in the marine corps......he has also worked in an advisory capacity with the idf.....israeli defense forces....in israel.....work for which he was recognized again by the u.s. military, as well as the idf.......i first met john in 1972 when several of us way east branch coordinators were invited to hq by vic after the firing of steve heefner during the ac in rye, ny in april of 72...........to see vic's "heart" and the "heart of the ministry" so's we would stick with twi and not "run off" with heefner and others after the "not so subtle" power play by twi in it's complete takeover of the way east..........at that time, john was in charge of "college outreach" for twi and was the man who designed the physical trainng program that was part of the corps training back then...........he was definitely a "man's man" during the entire time that i knew him back then.......absolutely respected by us corps "kids" and, generally respected throughout the ministry as far as i could tell............he also coordinated twi's original holy land tours.......and led several of them with great success and excitement back in the early 70's.........my personal experiences with john were always positive and i held in him in high regard, as i do to this day....although my last personal contact with him was back in the late 70's......
john was his own man.......during my first year in da corps (the way corps, that is)....we took his class on old testament history.....which was excellent btw......and i began to see the first glimpses of his conflict with vic..........glimpses that became less and less private as that year unfolded..........he had a "knack" for really pizzing vic off with his unflinching honesty and "sarcastic" humor in the face of some really intense "facemeltings" directed at him by vic, both pubicly and privately!!.........vic would criticize john publicly about something he would teach or say during the old t class, and john would throw it right back at vic.......it was great to observe!!!!..........vic often publicly ranted about john's "ego problem" with vic..........and i mean rant!!.....you know, that purple-faced, neck-vein popping kinda rant that only vic could perform!!.........made the dancing prez look like a mickey mouse version of ranting!!..........my take on these rants??.......vic was deeply jealous of john's obvious intelligence and the real achievements of john academically, as a true military "hero", and at his refusal to compromise his own integrity as a "man's man" in the face of the vicious verbal assaults and personal attacks from his father-in-law!!..........he was jealous of john because john was real, not just a pompous phoney like his father-in-law!.....vic feared john, because, in spite of vic's best shots, vic could not break his son-in-law!!...i had several profound, personal conversations with john about my observations of his relationship with vic.......honest, probing and quite revealing conversations for which i am still grateful today to john for engaging in with me.........
in 1974, john left hq and set up the total fitness instiute (tfi) in north fork, ca with the financial assistance of j--n s. l--n and the "blessing" of vic..........tfi was to become the real testing and training ground for the way corps folks.........the experience which would really show vic who his toughest future leaders and workers would be..........it was also open to public sessions which were like twi's version of outward bound, and it rapidly gained a popularity among the corps and non-corps attendees as a real test of a believer's mettle when it came to operating all-9-all-the- time..........it was the precursor to LEAD, which was the vic perverted and controlled version of what john had in mind for tfi!.........it was during the tfi sessions of the spring of 1975 that vic first "ordered" john do the pow camp thingy...... i was on the field in my interim year corps assignment (we were the first corps to have one).......and my lc was one of the attendees at the tfi session where martindale and other "top" corps leaders were given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word.........it was a very real experience of what a pow camp might have been like if those circumstances regarding the fall of the usa had been true..........martindale was not the "only survivor" of this pow camp passionplay..........he started an "escape attempt" type of maneuver during which he caused the "deaths" of most of his fellow "prisoners" by his feeble attempt at being the hero/leader........a maneuver for which he was roundly criticized in his final tfi evaluation which was written by john som---ille on each of the participants..........there were several participants who were indeed "broken" during this experiment.......and their "reward" was humiliation in front of the corps and they were never really "trusted" again with choice leadership assignments because of their proven weakness in the face of the enemy!!!...........the participants were sworn to secrecy.....so that the pow experiments could continue unhindered during future tfi sessions..........but, as you can tell from the amount of info i gathered from my lc upon his return, the secret got out fast.........but the pow experiments continued through the tfi session of that spring and summer until october, 1975..........when there were some serious physical and psycho-emotional injuries that occurred during tfi...........all of which, vic blamed on the "total lack of believing" on the part of those "injured"............i did my tfi trip in november, 1975..........and although several of the pow situations were thrown at us.....the pow scenario itself had been watered down so as to avoid any further injuries.........
the tfi experience for the in-rez corps involved the following "rules"..........each tfi group was to hitch-hike to and from north fork in "couples", that is, you chose your travelling partner from among the group........we were encouraged not to choose our spouses, but my spouse was under 20 at the time so i refused to let her go with anyone else..........each person was given a $20 bill so as not to get busted for vagrancy if stopped or questioned by state or local police while hitch-hiking.........it was made plain that if you did not arrive at north fork with the entire $20 you would be immediatley turned back to hitch-hike home.......or, if you made it back without the $20 intact you would receive a failing final evaluation.........you were allotted 72 hours maximum to make the trip each way.......if you took more than 72 hours to get there, you were again immediately turned back to hitch-hike home, refused participation in the tfi program......if you took more than 72 hours to get back home, you again were giving a failing final evaluation.........my wife and i were dropped off at a truck stop near I-75 and it's juncture with I-70 at about 6pm and we then had 72 hours to make our way to north fork, ca........by hook or by crook...........we made it in 70 hours.........no sleep, no stopping, both our $20 bills in pocket!!...........i remember how sad i felt for the unfortunate few who took longer than 72 hours to get there........i literally cried as i watched them turned around after their grueling trip out to ca, no food, no rest.......just a facemelting phone call from vic telling them they flunked and that they better make it home on time or they'd be kicked out of the corps!!..........i watched 6 people have to go through that bs!............
before i left for tfi, i was called to vic's office for a "meetring" with him.........we sat out on the porch by his office, smoking a couple of cigarrettes..........vic asked me to keep our conversation "confidential".........he said that he knew that i had become "close" to john som---ille, during my first year in-rez........he said he knew that i could "talk with john "man-to-man"..........he said that john's "unbridled ego" was going to ruin tfi.........he just was not "seeing" what father wanted vic to do with tfi.......he said john was once again "fighting him" (vic) on the "guidance" god was providing........and he asked me to try to talk with john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law, hoping that maybe i could "get through to him"..............so, on a cliff overhanging the sierra nevada mountains, having just successfully scaled jackass rock, with only john and jack wilson with me (i had been "banned" from the group assault on jackass rock the day before for taking an "unauthorized picture" of two lindas relieving their bladders behind a log while we were all tied together by a single rope for the day's hike to the foot of jackass rock.........lol!).........while jack was busy preparing for the descent, i had my "man-to-man" talk with john..........one of the greatest conversations i ever had with any wayfer in my life, brutally honest, refreshingly quiet in tone with mutual respect........needless to say,.....i never really "got through" to john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law!!..........by the end of my first question and his respnse, i saw there was absolutely no need for me to..........there was not a thing wrong with john's ego..........the problems were with the ego of his father-in-law!!!...........
soooo,...........what's my point???...............the entire confrontation session you poor FLO folks had with that guy who probably lived in a van down by the olentangy river was just another perverted distortion of what had been a good idea of john som---ille's that was perverted, twisted, and morphed into another psychosocial torture mechanism designed by vic to break down and control the most willing and faithful followers of his way in ohio..........arranged by a lc who was as afraid of the whole thing as you were, but who was more afraid of what his "father-in-the-word" would do or say if he did'nt carry out his orders!!............i hope your "facilitator" was not bill m--ze.........but it very well could have been..........bill was a terrific dale carnegie isnstructor whom vic "took under his wing" and also eventually destroyed what started out as a unique and valuable service to the corps........bill was tied to vic all the way back to the chimes hour youth caravan daze........he was almost like an "adopted son" of vic's,.......and we all know too well what that can do to a man!............ sorry for the length of this post.......but the memories sometimes come in waves..........................peace.
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waysider
Yes the doors were locked and someone stood post at them.
I don't think it was ever stated that they were standing guard but that was the impression it gave.
I suppose someone might come along now and say something like," Golly, you could have just left if you didn't like it."
But where were you supposed to go?
We lived in a commune for gosh sakes! In the middle of Nowhere, USA.
Most people's hometowns were hundreds and even thousands of miles away.
And it was made very clear that leaving would be the same as declaring yourself a failure and any hopes you had of becoming a leader would be null and void from that moment on.
You know, most people had already "burned their bridges" and had no job prospects awaiting them "back home", very little money and, for the most part, most of us didn't even have cars that could make any kind of lengthy trip.
It would have been a total disgrace to walk away.(and a financial challenge.)
And even if it crossed your mind to try that, how could you be sure you weren't the one who was wrong?
It seems so easy to see the answer when looking at it 30 years later but it was very confusing at the time it was happening.
Edit: Sorry this is out of synch with DWBH's post.
I didn't know he was posting at the same time.
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DontWorryBeHappy
ooopps!..................editted to avoid a double post!......sowwy!
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Belle
Oh My! What a history lesson here!
Thanks, y'all for taking the time to put all this together! Thank you!!
That answers quite a few questions.
I'm speechless. I'm so sorry y'all were put through so much inhumanity in your corps training.
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Watered Garden
Coolchef,
I think the perpetrator was probably the guy DWBH described. Don't know of the folks you mentioned. There could easily have been several individuals "trained" in these techniques and sent forth to "bless the believers."
I think what made this so successful was that we were suddenly threatened, tied up, blindfolded, and tormented by those we TRUSTED. If in fact a Russian invasion had happened and THE ENEMY was after us, our response would have been entirely different. But this was a friend, a fellow believer, another member of the body of Christ. We were not forewarned in any of the three situations, the two I remember, and the one of which Waysider was an unhappy victim. One of the results was to keep us off-balance, uncertain, and wary. We were taught to revere leadership, and here is this "guest speaker," some fellow to be treated with the utmost courtesy and respect, someone to be listened to and trusted, and he ties some of us up, blindfolds us, and screams, curses and pushes and hits. This is the treatment some of us receive from an individual who supposedly represents the Lord Jesus Christ. Funny, I don't remember reading in the Bible that Jesus did this to any of his apostles.
Just another example of TWI taking over the rightful position of Jesus in his followers' lives. I love that bumper sticker, "Jesus, please save me from Your followers."
Right.
WG
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Watered Garden
Waysider,
The lockdown at Limb your third year was basically a kidnapping. Unfortunately, it would have been unthinkable to call 911 and have the Delaware County Sheriff's Officers surrounding the building, and see JM led away in cuffs. Nice fantasy, though.
WG
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GeorgeStGeorge
Too bad you didn't all just "revolt" and beat the snot out of him!
George
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Watered Garden
As Waysider mentioned in an earlier post, we were pretty isolated from the rest of the world. We were being trained to be leadership in the State of Ohio. Thirty-two years ago, I was a trusting soul, somewhat naive, and believed that all TWI leadership were placed in their positions by revelation from God. Iit was my personal responsibility before God to listen to that individual very attentively, with completely undivided attention; to remember their sacred words, and to obey without question, the first time every time. So if a most exceedingly great and mighty man of God thinks I am worthless and useless, then I pretty much have to agree.
The first incident, the one I described, was probably a very watered-down version of brainwashing such as was found in the infamous prison camps of North Viet Nam and Nazi Germany. Pick a few of the strongest, make the entire prison camp watch them being tortured, and you'll have no problem with the rest of the prison population.
And, the chances that the prison population will stage an instantaneous rebellion in that situation are very slim indeed, or it wouldn't be happening in the first place.
Remember, we were TRAINED to obey leadership. We were TRAINED that the MOG is always right. To question the MOG is to question God. I can only speak for myself, but I spent two years in Ohio Fellow Laborers, and of those 24 months, I would say about 22 of them I was scared to death. The last two I was engaged to be married and didn't really give a rat's nose.
Remember too, that as Waysider said, we had for the most part menial jobs, crappy cars, and lived 6 to an apartment in Delaware, Ohio. If you didn't own your own vehicle and have it in decent working order, and you were given your marching orders, which meant "out within 24 hours" you were well and truly screwed. What 20-something wants to call Mommie and Daddy in the middle of the night and say "come get me."? Some of us had family in TWI; they would've been ashamed of the failure their kid reflected on them. Some of us had parents who despised TWI and would have never us out of their sight again.
So rebellion was not an option for many of us.
WG
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waysider
Thanks, WG
You really hit the nail on the head regarding the feeling of isolation.
Where would you go?
What would you do?
Your days with the ministry would essentially come to a screeching halt by your own choice if you left.
I don't remember anyone leaving of their own choosing.
There were some who were "tossed out" in the middle of the night.
I lived in two different "houses" where this happened.
They were ordered to be completely out of the state within a matter of hours.(a day at the most)
Why? Because they did not follow some inane order to a tee!
Yeah, it was expected you would do exactly as told without question or debate.
There was no "reasoning from The Word".
And all the time this is happening, you find yourself thinking, "Gee, maybe I'm the one who is wrong here."
Who wanted to defy the mighty MOG who might be acting in accordance with some great revelation?(cough)
I suppose that's why some of us would make "junk runs" to the truck stop and try to sort through our confusion in secret as we make the trek.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hey there you two buckeye saints!!!..........who were the lc's when you got tortured??........hy?......or, jm?..........just wondering.......................peace.
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Watered Garden
DWBH,
1975-76 it was HY. 1976-78 (Waysider was there for two years under this guy's "leadership") it was JM, the only man I ever saw drink beer at 9:00 AM. He had it in a coffee cup and I noticed it as I rounded a corner onto a pathway, which he was coming up as I was coming down. I could see right into it, and thought, "Hmmmm.' He must have seen a look on my face because he mumbled some lame excuse. Of course it never occurred to little brainwashed me that he might be an alkie. Wonder if that would explain some of his less appropriate behaviors?
Of the two, I pretty much liked HY, though he let the FL coordinator, a 21-year-old child, do all the dirty work. The future Mr. Garden would've made a great leader for that bunch, because he was honest, genuine, real, and knowledgable of God, kind and loving. But I suppose from that viewpoint someone with a lot more legalism and a lot less lovingkindness would be more what TWI would want.
Now lessee, what good did I get out of those two years? The second best thing that ever happened to me, Jesus being Number One - my husband!
WG
WG
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DontWorryBeHappy
thanks for your answer, WG!.......oh yeah!......jm major alkie and incredibly,....a sleazy womanizer to boot!!!!......always heavily overshadowed by his wife.....a very intelligent and kind lady.......how she chose such a loser is beyond me!!!!........but, at least she eventually freed herself from that horrible bond!......jm was a good guy in ca before entering the 4th corps......but he was way over his head in the corps.......unqualified for any position upon graduation.......as he proved repeatedly........sad..........peace.
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