You said HY was a great fan of this Ma__e guy, which probably explains the first incident, which took place in a hotel or some such meeting room away from Limb, right after 4th year FLO got settled in their little rooms. The other two were indeed engineered by JM hissownself. The getting rousted out of bed in the middle of the night was pure sadism. I wasn't around for the lockdown, thank God. I can't imagine going from Friday night to Sunday night without a couple showers and brushing after every meal. Those people were very, very sure of themselves; they should have been arrested for kidnapping. Who was taking care of the children during this torture session?
Waysider, I agree with you. I don't think HY meant any real harm. But I always got the sense that JM was enjoying himself thoroughly. And yes, he certainly was a sleazy womanizer. His hand crept toward my backside more than once. I should have broken his arm! Galatian's 5:12 for men like him.*
WG
Galatians 5:12, KJV: I would they were even cut off which trouble you."
If I recall correctly, we were allowed to go back to the complex to sleep and shower, etc.( Maybe a 4 or 5 hour stretch?) but were forbidden to discuss it amongst ourselves. So, yes, technically, one could have simply driven off into the night and never returned if they were in a car alone.(How often did that happen?)
We all car pooled because none of us had any freakin' money to pay for gas!!
Please forgive me for mispelling names here. I don't remember half the people at HQ due to the fact that I was only there a a few months.
When I was (dismissed/booted) from the Corps for ratting on Craig and his big secret on his womanizing tactics on me. He Totally and Royally melted my face in his office with Janet M and Jacky H sitting right there watching. Basically he was busted and was soooo pee ode at me. Needless to say, he got me out of there as quickly as possible!! I'm 5'5 115lbs. and this big as@ho*le was literally hovering over me and screaming in my face. I can't even remember what he was saying. All I know was I was so scared and thinking I have NO $$ and where in the heck do I go from here.
Boy, did he do me a favor ;)
Life is so good now for me and I'm thankfull I didn't have to live out the 90's with that jerk. I'm so sorry for you that did and all of you who had the experience of his spit on your face :mellow:
Watered Garden, I'm sorry I took so long to reply concerning what Bi!! M. did to me during "Christian Communications"...as I believe it was called.
It was a required class in the corps and I think it was a good idea to have a class on public speaking, but public humiliation and cruelty should have no place in Christian training, non-Christian training, dog training, or any kind of training intended to benefit the trainee.
My experience didn't involve physical restraint...but during one of our required speeches, or "incidents", he humiliated me because I came up about 30 seconds short. The incident I spoke about dealt with the death of my mother and because I didn't use all my time, he turned it into a psychoalalysis...how since I didn't make use of my alloted incident time I must have abandoned my mother during her last days. I don't remember the details...I just remember standing on stage crying in front of my 200-plus corps brothers and sisters while this a$$ho!e rewrote my own personal history. It would have been bad enough but you have to understand that I hate being in front of people, much less crying in front of people.
During the couple of weeks or so of the course vp was there (he was at our campus a LOT during our first year (the last year of his life) and he made a point of saying that sometimes he thought Bi!! M. went too far. HA...like he wouldn't and couldn't have done something about it if he thought so! I saw vp tear someone a new one for leaving the wrong kind of mints by the podium. If he wanted to change the way things were being done he easily could have. It was just part of his twisted game.
hey tonto!,,,,,,hey strange one!!!............always a pleasure meetin' up with youse guys here in da forums!!!!.............
bill m was a very accomplished psycho-emotional bully, to put it mildly!!..........i too had my "confrontations" with him in front of the whole corps!!!.......but no worry......he was just trying to make up for being "small" both in stature and psychosocially!!!!.......he did provide a lot of valueable stuff for those in the corps who could get around his interpersonal bullying.......but, for many, the price was far too steep to really be able to honestly say, "it was worth it"!!!!
and, tom...i don't think you'll be running into him any time soon, seeing as he's dead!!!........however, your heart for tonto and t-bone is much appreciated, and, i for one, know that you would absolutely do what you said were you ever to run into him!!!.........strange you are.......just as you are forthright and caring!!!......i love you dude!!!!!...................................peace.
(kinda - following up on something from two pages ago )
Some folks like their house neat, clean and orderly and look down their noses at those whose homes aren't.
Other folks like their home comfortably messy, and shake their heads sadly at those who insist on neatness.
For some of those who have the comfortable messes, the effort of keeping things neat isn't worth the effort, since it takes away from more important matters, such as raising their kids!
For some of those who seem obsessive about order, it can be disorienting and uncomfortable to be constantly surrounded by disorder.
And it may be difficult for those couples where one is an "Oscar" and the other is a "Felix". Some kind of balance has to be reached (I suppose maintaining a island of neatness out in the mobile home is a balance )
Bottom line though, no one from outside the family should be telling anyone how to keep their house. Everybody gets to set their own priorities.
I thought of something else, and maybe it has been touched on already, but a lot of face meltings occurred in 1994-96 over money and debt.
In August of 1994 I spent a week in the hospital when I was diagnosed with IDDM and we had no insurance. We incurred about a $5500 hospital bill. We were paying it off monthly when our TC's got wind of it. They were also incensed because my husband had gotten a great job, one he ended up loving, and was being trained on second shift. This was fine with me, but not with them. The wife insisted that John had to be home at night, and it was outrageous I was alone every evening. Of course I had a son and a cocker spaniel to keep me company and I did just fine. The husband was indignant that my husband had taken a job at all with asking his permission (AS IF!).
The minimog for the city and his little wife met with us at the TC's house. We were on our way to a Christmas party and I was all dressed up in a slightly low cut (but that all that bad) black dress, for which I got blasted by the TC's wife, who said I should never wear it outside the bedroom. We were absolved of the job situation. But the hospital bill came up and we were castigated for that big times. We were ordered to sell a small amount of stock we owned in a fortune 100 company and pay off the hospital bill immediately.
To our later regret we did so. We had a lot of money left over, so we bought CD's with it and didn't ABS one dime.
I still have the dress.
Did all the leaders feel free to stick their noses into others' checkbooks?
I've noticed from what I was taught that you were always suppose to run any decision by a leader and that never sat well with me. Why? Because God is big enough to tell me himself. I wasn't raised Catholic where everything has to be confessed to a priest and that's what training in TWI sounded like. I am still thankful for what I learned and the time the person spent with me but it was little things like that which always kept me a little in "Outfield"
Did all the leaders feel free to stick their noses into others' checkbooks?
Oh yes! I used to live with my extended family on a giant plot of land. My father and uncle bought some land together and we had a little farm. We were supposed to live there forever. We were supposed to be together always.
But my parents were in the corps and being in debt was evil.
So they ordered my dad to get out of debt and get rid of the house.
My aunt and uncle took on our share of the property and house... and even let us live there for a while while my parents got out of debt. They were almost there.
We had to move away from our family and friends.
And then they kicked my parents out anyway.
Around 5 years ago my father told leadership he was going to move and where.
I remember the financial face-meltings well. there was one benefit that we actually got out of debt when we never would otherwise because my ex-husband was really underhanded with money. I had no idea where it all went, it would just disappear, but at least with our FC breathing down his neck I had a respite and was able to pay bills. after that it just got darned tiresome always needing to justify every little purchase, especially when I started earning my own money and could pay bills by myself so my ex-husband's problems weren't so troublesome. I quit ABSing when my ex quit supporting the kids, and I kept expecting to be confronted over it, and have my financial problems blamed on not ABSing instead of my kids having a deadbeat dad.
I quit ABSing when my ex quit supporting the kids, and I kept expecting to be confronted over it, and have my financial problems blamed on not ABSing instead of my kids having a deadbeat dad.
Don't you just love that? They would do that all the time with us. You aren't giving enough - that's why you aren't healthy. No... actually it's because we give you so much we can't afford health care insurance.
My first experience with face-melting was during my apprentice year for WC. I was part of a co-ed way-home, run by the Interim Corps wow-team leader from my previous wow year, who didn't pull his $ together to go back in-rez. I was 18.
Early into the year, he, for some reason, felt obliged to convince me about how screwed-up I was. For MANY months, I don't remember how many, but it seems like 6-8, we had these 1-3 hour sessions of him SCREAMING at me about how and why I might never "get it" and probably wouldn't make it into the WC, much less graduate or really be able to serve God or His people.
I'm a VERY sensitive heart, and those "teaching" sessions during those months crushed my soul, day in and day out. I decided against going in the WC, not because I thought I'd turn out like him, but because I'd begun to believe his BS. When the LC asked me why I'd changed my mind, I parrotted the things that had been pounded for the previous several months. He firmly but very gently told me that he didn't agree, and ASKED me to please pray and reconsider.
The "meltings" continued for another few weeks, and then one day something changed. During my Apprentice Corps daily evaluation, (which I don't think was an official mandate at that time, early 80's, but for lack of a better term,) the tone changed. He, instead of urgently insulting me (for my own benefit dontcha know), he made some half-a$$ed, non-apology, like, "Ya know, I never realized how much insight you have in working the Word".
The reprieve from the constant assault was so welcome, that I didn't even recognize the shift when he began to steer our "Bar-witnessing" toward a more "romantic", endeavor. When I shunned his advances, that opened up a whole new round of "reproof sessions". I was SO screwed-up by my *^@!^> Catholic upbringing, said he, and so wound-tight, that I might never figure out how to really love God or His people or a husband! (I was never raped, but definite lines were crossed).
I was glad the year was near its end, and prayed diligently that wherever I was in-rez, he would NOT be. God answered that prayer.
I really thought this was an isolated person/situation, though after a short time under the tutelage of D@ve Bed@rd, I had an idea where the "righteous" screaming thing came from. Most of the time in-rez, I flew under the radar, except for one time when a CC was on a homo hunt and I fought for someone in my twig.
I never again encountered sexual predation, but got some more clues it existed when I heard some very off-handed comments from some who should've known- and behaved better.
I want to thank all of you brave GSers who have shared the dark experiences you endured. Your stories have been monumental in my taking another look at my experiences, and have brought me to many an OMG!!! moment, and helped me to gain a much truer perspective of many of my TWI experiences.
Interestingly, I got to this point in my post earlier today, when for NO apparent reason, my computer shut itself off. POOF!
Cinder, that dude sounds horrifyingly f'ed up. twi's ability to choose the worst of the moral rejects and put them in charge of people is pretty stunning. I know there were some areas where there were some decent and even good leaders, but I met more of the bad kind, or at best self-seeking and apathetic, still driven by their own egos.
Actually I was very fortunate to have been under some of the dearest, most honest, heartsy leadership for most of my time in TWI. That's probably why I was so blind-sided by this one. I was very naive and trusting, even to the point where I wrote this off as an isolated person/incident.
Cinder, that dude sounds horrifyingly f'ed up. twi's ability to choose the worst of the moral rejects and put them in charge of people is pretty stunning. I know there were some areas where there were some decent and even good leaders, but I met more of the bad kind, or at best self-seeking and apathetic, still driven by their own egos.
Actually I was very fortunate to have been under some of the dearest, most honest, heartsy leadership for most of my time in TWI. That's probably why I was so blind-sided by this one. I was very naive and trusting, even to the point where I wrote this off as an isolated person/incident.
Ya live, ya learn
~Cinder
It's my opinion that the "some of them were great" "some of them were horrible" hit-and-miss results of the corps
was primarily the result of the "screening process", that is,
"If you have the money, you can enter the corps" and
"you can stay as long as your money holds".
The latter was a direct quote, lcm said vpw told him that when lcm was in the corps.
With no REAL screening process, we had dedicated Christians and unfit leaders line up,
and BOTH were given responsibilities over people.
Which served vpw well often,
since the former legitimized the ministry, and the latter often were willing to do what HE wanted, which
facilitated his evil deeds.
Either way, they paid for the entire course, and performed manual labour while in it.
This was a financial winner for him all the way through.
"Face melting" could even happen because leadership was led to believe that they had the authority to interfere and the insight to have the right answers. When the "good" ones did it, it was merely annoying, when the bad ones did, it could be ugly.
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Watered Garden
DWBH,
You said HY was a great fan of this Ma__e guy, which probably explains the first incident, which took place in a hotel or some such meeting room away from Limb, right after 4th year FLO got settled in their little rooms. The other two were indeed engineered by JM hissownself. The getting rousted out of bed in the middle of the night was pure sadism. I wasn't around for the lockdown, thank God. I can't imagine going from Friday night to Sunday night without a couple showers and brushing after every meal. Those people were very, very sure of themselves; they should have been arrested for kidnapping. Who was taking care of the children during this torture session?
Waysider, I agree with you. I don't think HY meant any real harm. But I always got the sense that JM was enjoying himself thoroughly. And yes, he certainly was a sleazy womanizer. His hand crept toward my backside more than once. I should have broken his arm! Galatian's 5:12 for men like him.*
WG
Galatians 5:12, KJV: I would they were even cut off which trouble you."
WG
Edited by Watered GardenLink to comment
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waysider
WG
If I recall correctly, we were allowed to go back to the complex to sleep and shower, etc.( Maybe a 4 or 5 hour stretch?) but were forbidden to discuss it amongst ourselves. So, yes, technically, one could have simply driven off into the night and never returned if they were in a car alone.(How often did that happen?)
We all car pooled because none of us had any freakin' money to pay for gas!!
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Captain Spiritural
My Fellowship Coordinator got in my face in Atlanta GA he started pointing his finger at my chest. I am 6ft4 225 12% body fat...
Edited to remove vulgar analogy
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WordWolf
You committed an assault on your local moglet,
and the entire thing was just dropped, of course.
Man, if I had a nickel for every time I broke a chair over the head of a moglet,
I could drown in them.... <_<
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Sunnyfla
Please forgive me for mispelling names here. I don't remember half the people at HQ due to the fact that I was only there a a few months.
When I was (dismissed/booted) from the Corps for ratting on Craig and his big secret on his womanizing tactics on me. He Totally and Royally melted my face in his office with Janet M and Jacky H sitting right there watching. Basically he was busted and was soooo pee ode at me. Needless to say, he got me out of there as quickly as possible!! I'm 5'5 115lbs. and this big as@ho*le was literally hovering over me and screaming in my face. I can't even remember what he was saying. All I know was I was so scared and thinking I have NO $$ and where in the heck do I go from here.
Boy, did he do me a favor ;)
Life is so good now for me and I'm thankfull I didn't have to live out the 90's with that jerk. I'm so sorry for you that did and all of you who had the experience of his spit on your face :mellow:
EWW.. I hate looking back
Peace,
Sunnyfla
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tonto
Watered Garden, I'm sorry I took so long to reply concerning what Bi!! M. did to me during "Christian Communications"...as I believe it was called.
It was a required class in the corps and I think it was a good idea to have a class on public speaking, but public humiliation and cruelty should have no place in Christian training, non-Christian training, dog training, or any kind of training intended to benefit the trainee.
My experience didn't involve physical restraint...but during one of our required speeches, or "incidents", he humiliated me because I came up about 30 seconds short. The incident I spoke about dealt with the death of my mother and because I didn't use all my time, he turned it into a psychoalalysis...how since I didn't make use of my alloted incident time I must have abandoned my mother during her last days. I don't remember the details...I just remember standing on stage crying in front of my 200-plus corps brothers and sisters while this a$$ho!e rewrote my own personal history. It would have been bad enough but you have to understand that I hate being in front of people, much less crying in front of people.
During the couple of weeks or so of the course vp was there (he was at our campus a LOT during our first year (the last year of his life) and he made a point of saying that sometimes he thought Bi!! M. went too far. HA...like he wouldn't and couldn't have done something about it if he thought so! I saw vp tear someone a new one for leaving the wrong kind of mints by the podium. If he wanted to change the way things were being done he easily could have. It was just part of his twisted game.
Oh well. Jesus is keeping score.
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Tom Strange
Tonto, if I ever come across him I'll tear him a new one for what he did! (but if I'm with T-Bone, I'll probably let him go first)
...and the not liking to be up on stage part? ..that explains why we didn't see you in the Miss America pageant!
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DontWorryBeHappy
hey tonto!,,,,,,hey strange one!!!............always a pleasure meetin' up with youse guys here in da forums!!!!.............
bill m was a very accomplished psycho-emotional bully, to put it mildly!!..........i too had my "confrontations" with him in front of the whole corps!!!.......but no worry......he was just trying to make up for being "small" both in stature and psychosocially!!!!.......he did provide a lot of valueable stuff for those in the corps who could get around his interpersonal bullying.......but, for many, the price was far too steep to really be able to honestly say, "it was worth it"!!!!
and, tom...i don't think you'll be running into him any time soon, seeing as he's dead!!!........however, your heart for tonto and t-bone is much appreciated, and, i for one, know that you would absolutely do what you said were you ever to run into him!!!.........strange you are.......just as you are forthright and caring!!!......i love you dude!!!!!...................................peace.
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Oakspear
Some folks like their house neat, clean and orderly and look down their noses at those whose homes aren't.
Other folks like their home comfortably messy, and shake their heads sadly at those who insist on neatness.
For some of those who have the comfortable messes, the effort of keeping things neat isn't worth the effort, since it takes away from more important matters, such as raising their kids!
For some of those who seem obsessive about order, it can be disorienting and uncomfortable to be constantly surrounded by disorder.
And it may be difficult for those couples where one is an "Oscar" and the other is a "Felix". Some kind of balance has to be reached (I suppose maintaining a island of neatness out in the mobile home is a balance
)
Bottom line though, no one from outside the family should be telling anyone how to keep their house. Everybody gets to set their own priorities.
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Watered Garden
He's dead? Really? And I was about to get in line for the radical anoplasty we were gonna give him.
Guess God will make all things new for all of us in due time.
WG
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Watered Garden
I thought of something else, and maybe it has been touched on already, but a lot of face meltings occurred in 1994-96 over money and debt.
In August of 1994 I spent a week in the hospital when I was diagnosed with IDDM and we had no insurance. We incurred about a $5500 hospital bill. We were paying it off monthly when our TC's got wind of it. They were also incensed because my husband had gotten a great job, one he ended up loving, and was being trained on second shift. This was fine with me, but not with them. The wife insisted that John had to be home at night, and it was outrageous I was alone every evening. Of course I had a son and a cocker spaniel to keep me company and I did just fine. The husband was indignant that my husband had taken a job at all with asking his permission (AS IF!).
The minimog for the city and his little wife met with us at the TC's house. We were on our way to a Christmas party and I was all dressed up in a slightly low cut (but that all that bad) black dress, for which I got blasted by the TC's wife, who said I should never wear it outside the bedroom. We were absolved of the job situation. But the hospital bill came up and we were castigated for that big times. We were ordered to sell a small amount of stock we owned in a fortune 100 company and pay off the hospital bill immediately.
To our later regret we did so. We had a lot of money left over, so we bought CD's with it and didn't ABS one dime.
I still have the dress.
Did all the leaders feel free to stick their noses into others' checkbooks?
WG
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Outfield
Wow, WG - you have been through alot.
I've noticed from what I was taught that you were always suppose to run any decision by a leader and that never sat well with me. Why? Because God is big enough to tell me himself. I wasn't raised Catholic where everything has to be confessed to a priest and that's what training in TWI sounded like. I am still thankful for what I learned and the time the person spent with me but it was little things like that which always kept me a little in "Outfield"
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Nero
Oh yes! I used to live with my extended family on a giant plot of land. My father and uncle bought some land together and we had a little farm. We were supposed to live there forever. We were supposed to be together always.
But my parents were in the corps and being in debt was evil.
So they ordered my dad to get out of debt and get rid of the house.
My aunt and uncle took on our share of the property and house... and even let us live there for a while while my parents got out of debt. They were almost there.
We had to move away from our family and friends.
And then they kicked my parents out anyway.
Around 5 years ago my father told leadership he was going to move and where.
They told him he couldn't.
He laughed.
And we've been here ever since.
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potato
I remember the financial face-meltings well. there was one benefit that we actually got out of debt when we never would otherwise because my ex-husband was really underhanded with money. I had no idea where it all went, it would just disappear, but at least with our FC breathing down his neck I had a respite and was able to pay bills. after that it just got darned tiresome always needing to justify every little purchase, especially when I started earning my own money and could pay bills by myself so my ex-husband's problems weren't so troublesome. I quit ABSing when my ex quit supporting the kids, and I kept expecting to be confronted over it, and have my financial problems blamed on not ABSing instead of my kids having a deadbeat dad.
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Nero
Don't you just love that? They would do that all the time with us. You aren't giving enough - that's why you aren't healthy. No... actually it's because we give you so much we can't afford health care insurance.
It was always such a guilt trip.
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potato
yep. man I do not miss that one bit.
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cinderpelt
OK~ Here goes:
My first experience with face-melting was during my apprentice year for WC. I was part of a co-ed way-home, run by the Interim Corps wow-team leader from my previous wow year, who didn't pull his $ together to go back in-rez. I was 18.
Early into the year, he, for some reason, felt obliged to convince me about how screwed-up I was. For MANY months, I don't remember how many, but it seems like 6-8, we had these 1-3 hour sessions of him SCREAMING at me about how and why I might never "get it" and probably wouldn't make it into the WC, much less graduate or really be able to serve God or His people.
I'm a VERY sensitive heart, and those "teaching" sessions during those months crushed my soul, day in and day out. I decided against going in the WC, not because I thought I'd turn out like him, but because I'd begun to believe his BS. When the LC asked me why I'd changed my mind, I parrotted the things that had been pounded for the previous several months. He firmly but very gently told me that he didn't agree, and ASKED me to please pray and reconsider.
The "meltings" continued for another few weeks, and then one day something changed. During my Apprentice Corps daily evaluation, (which I don't think was an official mandate at that time, early 80's, but for lack of a better term,) the tone changed. He, instead of urgently insulting me (for my own benefit dontcha know), he made some half-a$$ed, non-apology, like, "Ya know, I never realized how much insight you have in working the Word".
The reprieve from the constant assault was so welcome, that I didn't even recognize the shift when he began to steer our "Bar-witnessing" toward a more "romantic", endeavor. When I shunned his advances, that opened up a whole new round of "reproof sessions". I was SO screwed-up by my *^@!^> Catholic upbringing, said he, and so wound-tight, that I might never figure out how to really love God or His people or a husband! (I was never raped, but definite lines were crossed).
I was glad the year was near its end, and prayed diligently that wherever I was in-rez, he would NOT be. God answered that prayer.
I really thought this was an isolated person/situation, though after a short time under the tutelage of D@ve Bed@rd, I had an idea where the "righteous" screaming thing came from. Most of the time in-rez, I flew under the radar, except for one time when a CC was on a homo hunt and I fought for someone in my twig.
I never again encountered sexual predation, but got some more clues it existed when I heard some very off-handed comments from some who should've known- and behaved better.
I want to thank all of you brave GSers who have shared the dark experiences you endured. Your stories have been monumental in my taking another look at my experiences, and have brought me to many an OMG!!! moment, and helped me to gain a much truer perspective of many of my TWI experiences.
Interestingly, I got to this point in my post earlier today, when for NO apparent reason, my computer shut itself off. POOF!
~Cinder
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potato
Cinder, that dude sounds horrifyingly f'ed up. twi's ability to choose the worst of the moral rejects and put them in charge of people is pretty stunning. I know there were some areas where there were some decent and even good leaders, but I met more of the bad kind, or at best self-seeking and apathetic, still driven by their own egos.
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cinderpelt
Actually I was very fortunate to have been under some of the dearest, most honest, heartsy leadership for most of my time in TWI. That's probably why I was so blind-sided by this one. I was very naive and trusting, even to the point where I wrote this off as an isolated person/incident.
Ya live, ya learn
~Cinder
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WordWolf
It's my opinion that the "some of them were great" "some of them were horrible" hit-and-miss results of the corps
was primarily the result of the "screening process", that is,
"If you have the money, you can enter the corps" and
"you can stay as long as your money holds".
The latter was a direct quote, lcm said vpw told him that when lcm was in the corps.
With no REAL screening process, we had dedicated Christians and unfit leaders line up,
and BOTH were given responsibilities over people.
Which served vpw well often,
since the former legitimized the ministry, and the latter often were willing to do what HE wanted, which
facilitated his evil deeds.
Either way, they paid for the entire course, and performed manual labour while in it.
This was a financial winner for him all the way through.
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Oakspear
"Face melting" could even happen because leadership was led to believe that they had the authority to interfere and the insight to have the right answers. When the "good" ones did it, it was merely annoying, when the bad ones did, it could be ugly.
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Edi
Boy that was right on the mark WordWolf - I don't think anyone could have said it any better.
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