No telling bnis. I often wonder what great good might have been accomplished had we not been side tracked into serving in twi.
ALL of that money, man power, billions of hours of heartfelt prayers. All of those hours of selfless service....who knows what would have happened if it had all been channeled into something that would have been of benefit to more than just a few greedy people.
Since I believe that whatever good came from TWI came from God, all I can say is that I feel strongly that we would have seen more of that goodness.
Perhaps:
The fervent prayers would have been more in number.
The healings would have been more apparent, and more often.
OTOH - I also see that anytime you get a group of people together, you have conflict.
How we resolved that conflict would be what shaped "what would of, could of, been."
It could have been much better or it could have been precisely the same - but for different reasons. There is a nature in man to point fingers and blame somebody - anybody - when things don't go according to plan.
Perhaps when we get to Heaven, God will give us a replay of things with alternate endings... ;)
I just hope we don't have to bring our own popcorn...
I can't quite view the past from a "what it should have been like" angle, although it's an interesting exercise.
The big word with a little footprint is "it", to my mind. What's "it"? If it's my life, let's say:
Crossing paths with Heef and Doop only would have taken me down a similar path personally, but where that would have gone, I can't imagine.
I don't see an alternate universe where some kind of Way-like ministry exists where things are "better" and without a VPW. I don't think either of them were heading towards that sort of operation, and I certainly wasn't. But I can't speak to their personal goals over the span of time we're considering.
I would imagine that individual statements and stamps in life for everyone would have produced entirely new efforts of all kinds.
Many people believe there was a kind of "movement of the spirit of God" at that time, throughout the world and specifically the U.S. That's a difficult thing to wrap around, and while I don't deny it I can't break it down in the events of the 60's and 70's. It could very well have been, but I just dunno.
There was a quote by the RC Pope alive at the time of 9/11, and he was asked if he thought 9/11 was God's doing, something along those lines. I probably should find the exact quote, but it stuck with me as I felt in general it spoke volumes, not so much about 9/11 but how God is viewed. He answered "It is not an easy thing to know the mind of God". He was being asked that because of some well known "ministers" who were claiming it was God's judgment on the U.S., and he addressed that with a powerful statement.
Which is sort of the understatement of the century but a very thoughtful response seeing how at that time, and generally,mankind tends to try and pop the lid on God and claim the contents, finders-keepers. We may not have a big enough can opener to get the job done the way a lot of us wish we could.
Not that this is doing that, but now I see. Your question opens up a lot of interesting thoughts though and one for me is that it's hard for me to consider all the variables involved clearly enough to come up with something.
What I might LIKE - - picture socks as an early co-founder of the Guitar Institute. Socks meets Howard Roberts in San Francisco at a little club one weekend and we rap about the bible......I could run with that one! (I never did, but if we're looking at possiblities...!)
I wonder what it would have been like if there was no TWI?
If we peel time back to when He*fner and Do*p were witnessing in New York and California, and eliminate VPW, and have allowed God to call people to serve, what should it have become? What would have looked like?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't it would have mattered if it was VPW or PWH (Pee Wee Herman) but I'm quite certainly that somewhere, someone would have let the fact they were top dog go to their heads and screw up....
I guess I was just wondering out loud..online..probably right ChasU, there would have been someone else F-ing it up if not for VPW.
From what some of the posters here describe it, it was a beautiful thing back then when the Way was not a part of it, before Hq's and the WC took over, it was an organic, nurturing, growing, loving thing without a lot of structure and rules or routine.
It seems from the record here on GS that back then the believers and fellowships were very sucessful when left to grow on their own, where God called people to serve, without titles, without placements, without someone authorizing them to serve, they just did it from the heart cause they cared about God and about people, and the Lord worked in them to do so. Very different from the way TWI II & III ran things.
From what I read in Acts, what the Way became doesn't jive with what the first century church did. Fellowships became so reigimented, hierarchical, and so cookie cutter christian, so homogenous and generic. There was no life in some of those twigs. I see a more fluid church in Acts, I also see them meeting inside the temple quite a lot and eating meals together in the homes in the many references of breaking bread, and praying together.
And why did we ever swallow that we had to be fed from an organizational root? And fed from one organization almost exclusively? We were so naive and accepting...so busy about serving and pleasing the order of the orginization (diolitry) that we divided our attention from whom we were supposed to be pleasing. Talk about fog years-how about the whole time?
Just for the record, Heefner wasn't witnessing in New York. Others did that and started running PFAL classes. Heefner was imported to head it up. So if VPW hadn't been around there would probably be just whatever they did in Calif. The house of acts, the Lonnie Frisbee thing. Probably it would have peetered out faster too - like the jesus freaks did.
That would probably be a good thing. Oh well, no one twisted my arm to get involved.
If it wasn't Heefn*r who started it out there, then who did? I don't know all the history or the progression of what happened in the beginning of the Jesus Movement on the East coast or the Midwest, but other posters here at GS attributed God telling both Perez and Heefn*r to go to Long Island & New York and then the Word would really move there. What happened before they came out?
I wonder what it would have been like if there was no TWI?
If we peel time back to when He*fner and Do*p were witnessing in New York and California, and eliminate VPW, and have allowed God to call people to serve, what should it have become? What would have looked like?
This may be unpopular to the crowd of TWI haters, but this is a very real possibility. I would have probably ended up in prison or dead by 30. I was too stupid to avoid it and the particulars in the life before during and after that I look back on are miraculous. I don't expect anyone to be cheering because I am so thankful for the 21 years I was in, but I have considered it for a long time.
The verse that changed my life in PFAL was II Tim 2:15. Up until that time I had tried to stand approved before everyone but God. Teachers, family, community and church.... and I couldn't do it and felt to inept to try. Once I found out how simple it was to stand approved before God, I latched on to it like a rock climber on a roap. It carried me through 21 years of the bs I put up with and even now after I'm out.
I was in the army when I took the class. Without TWI, I would have become a lifer and had the personality of pack of camels.
I was so naive about life I probably would have become a drug addict or something stupid like that. I certainly would have been a greater mess without TWI than I ended up with TWI.
I don't like what VPW and LCM did to the ministry. Even today when I witness to someone and get into the depth of teaching I have them to use as an example of people who got tricked. Thankfully, the Bible is still the Bible. Men come and go.
I don`t think that I buy that anybody with that much power would f up....
That is a discredit to the people who DO serve God faithfully. It is a choice one makes......
If you guys were in charge would you be drugging and raping?? Would you be destroying lives deliberately??
It takes a uncommon kind of orneriness to do these things imo
Rascal, if I had that much power would I be drugging and raping? Destroying lives deliberately? No. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't do other things that were wrong and hurtful.
I strongly believe that a public body (I use the term public somewhat loosely here) be it a school, a government, or even a church, needs a system of checks and balances.
I sit on a school board. I would hate to think of what would happen if any one person on the board, or if the superintendent had all the power. I hate to think what would happen if all the board members and the superintendent were all buddy buddy and no one spoke up with differing view points or in opposition to something they thought was a bad idea.
I don't know all the ins and outs of every issue that comes before the board - it would be impossible for me too. Nor does anyone else who sits on that board. But TOGETHER, with the input of everyone, I think we usually make pretty good decisions.
I think it should be the same with churches. They need a board of directors that can function properly.
If it wasn't Heefn*r who started it out there, then who did?
A man named Stefan Emerick started things off in the Bronx, in 1971. Fortunately for me, he lived just around the corner. His mom Annie was a waitress in Riverdale and knew my mom who also was a waitress. My mom began twigs in 1972 and the rest of us followed shortly thereafter.
A man named S+efan Emer!ck started things off in the Bronx, in 1971. Fortunately for me, he lived just around the corner. His mom Annie was a waitress in Riverdale and knew my mom who also was a waitress. My mom began twigs in 1972 and the rest of us followed shortly thereafter.
So, in 1971, S+efan E was sent by twi to the Bronx, correct?
Was the next step twi sending H33fn3r, and if so, what year was that?
I think that twi was a cult built on the charismatic personality of Cornfield Vic....without Vic, there is no twi...end of story.
Had there been no twi, the sincere Christians who got involved would have found Christian groups or churches to get involved with...As far as Doop and Heefner...Wierwille was a thief, he stole their "followers" just like he stole his class and his books...A lot of lives missed out on "what coulda been" because of twi.
A man named Stefan Emerick started things off in the Bronx, in 1971. Fortunately for me, he lived just around the corner. His mom Annie was a waitress in Riverdale and knew my mom who also was a waitress. My mom began twigs in 1972 and the rest of us followed shortly thereafter.
WW, I don't think he meant to say that vpw sent Heefn*r, I think Heefn*r got that directly from the Source. Maybe we could get more details of the big picture from someone who was there. I am also interested to know historically, what got Stephen E started, it sounds like he was native to the Bronx area.
There is so much murkiness about those days, I wish someone had it written down
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GarthP2000
Outside of thousands of people who wouldn't have been hurt/ripped off by aforementioned cornfield kraut, ... not much of a difference overall.
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rascal
No telling bnis. I often wonder what great good might have been accomplished had we not been side tracked into serving in twi.
ALL of that money, man power, billions of hours of heartfelt prayers. All of those hours of selfless service....who knows what would have happened if it had all been channeled into something that would have been of benefit to more than just a few greedy people.
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doojable
I"m torn on this one.
Since I believe that whatever good came from TWI came from God, all I can say is that I feel strongly that we would have seen more of that goodness.
Perhaps:
The fervent prayers would have been more in number.
The healings would have been more apparent, and more often.
OTOH - I also see that anytime you get a group of people together, you have conflict.
How we resolved that conflict would be what shaped "what would of, could of, been."
It could have been much better or it could have been precisely the same - but for different reasons. There is a nature in man to point fingers and blame somebody - anybody - when things don't go according to plan.
Perhaps when we get to Heaven, God will give us a replay of things with alternate endings... ;)
I just hope we don't have to bring our own popcorn...
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socks
I can't quite view the past from a "what it should have been like" angle, although it's an interesting exercise.
The big word with a little footprint is "it", to my mind. What's "it"? If it's my life, let's say:
Crossing paths with Heef and Doop only would have taken me down a similar path personally, but where that would have gone, I can't imagine.
I don't see an alternate universe where some kind of Way-like ministry exists where things are "better" and without a VPW. I don't think either of them were heading towards that sort of operation, and I certainly wasn't. But I can't speak to their personal goals over the span of time we're considering.
I would imagine that individual statements and stamps in life for everyone would have produced entirely new efforts of all kinds.
Many people believe there was a kind of "movement of the spirit of God" at that time, throughout the world and specifically the U.S. That's a difficult thing to wrap around, and while I don't deny it I can't break it down in the events of the 60's and 70's. It could very well have been, but I just dunno.
There was a quote by the RC Pope alive at the time of 9/11, and he was asked if he thought 9/11 was God's doing, something along those lines. I probably should find the exact quote, but it stuck with me as I felt in general it spoke volumes, not so much about 9/11 but how God is viewed. He answered "It is not an easy thing to know the mind of God". He was being asked that because of some well known "ministers" who were claiming it was God's judgment on the U.S., and he addressed that with a powerful statement.
Which is sort of the understatement of the century but a very thoughtful response seeing how at that time, and generally,mankind tends to try and pop the lid on God and claim the contents, finders-keepers. We may not have a big enough can opener to get the job done the way a lot of us wish we could.
Not that this is doing that, but now I see. Your question opens up a lot of interesting thoughts though and one for me is that it's hard for me to consider all the variables involved clearly enough to come up with something.
What I might LIKE -
- picture socks as an early co-founder of the Guitar Institute. Socks meets Howard Roberts in San Francisco at a little club one weekend and we rap about the bible......I could run with that one! (I never did, but if we're looking at possiblities...!)
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excathedra
i have no clue
i wonder if i had been born to different parents ?
i am not being "smart-mouthed" here
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ChasUFarley
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don't it would have mattered if it was VPW or PWH (Pee Wee Herman) but I'm quite certainly that somewhere, someone would have let the fact they were top dog go to their heads and screw up....
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now I see
I guess I was just wondering out loud..online..probably right ChasU, there would have been someone else F-ing it up if not for VPW.
From what some of the posters here describe it, it was a beautiful thing back then when the Way was not a part of it, before Hq's and the WC took over, it was an organic, nurturing, growing, loving thing without a lot of structure and rules or routine.
It seems from the record here on GS that back then the believers and fellowships were very sucessful when left to grow on their own, where God called people to serve, without titles, without placements, without someone authorizing them to serve, they just did it from the heart cause they cared about God and about people, and the Lord worked in them to do so. Very different from the way TWI II & III ran things.
From what I read in Acts, what the Way became doesn't jive with what the first century church did. Fellowships became so reigimented, hierarchical, and so cookie cutter christian, so homogenous and generic. There was no life in some of those twigs. I see a more fluid church in Acts, I also see them meeting inside the temple quite a lot and eating meals together in the homes in the many references of breaking bread, and praying together.
And why did we ever swallow that we had to be fed from an organizational root? And fed from one organization almost exclusively? We were so naive and accepting...so busy about serving and pleasing the order of the orginization (diolitry) that we divided our attention from whom we were supposed to be pleasing. Talk about fog years-how about the whole time?
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rascal
I don`t think that I buy that anybody with that much power would f up....
That is a discredit to the people who DO serve God faithfully. It is a choice one makes......
If you guys were in charge would you be drugging and raping?? Would you be destroying lives deliberately??
It takes a uncommon kind of orneriness to do these things imo
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My3Cents
Just for the record, Heefner wasn't witnessing in New York. Others did that and started running PFAL classes. Heefner was imported to head it up. So if VPW hadn't been around there would probably be just whatever they did in Calif. The house of acts, the Lonnie Frisbee thing. Probably it would have peetered out faster too - like the jesus freaks did.
That would probably be a good thing. Oh well, no one twisted my arm to get involved.
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now I see
My3,
If it wasn't Heefn*r who started it out there, then who did? I don't know all the history or the progression of what happened in the beginning of the Jesus Movement on the East coast or the Midwest, but other posters here at GS attributed God telling both Perez and Heefn*r to go to Long Island & New York and then the Word would really move there. What happened before they came out?
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YID
This may be unpopular to the crowd of TWI haters, but this is a very real possibility. I would have probably ended up in prison or dead by 30. I was too stupid to avoid it and the particulars in the life before during and after that I look back on are miraculous. I don't expect anyone to be cheering because I am so thankful for the 21 years I was in, but I have considered it for a long time.
The verse that changed my life in PFAL was II Tim 2:15. Up until that time I had tried to stand approved before everyone but God. Teachers, family, community and church.... and I couldn't do it and felt to inept to try. Once I found out how simple it was to stand approved before God, I latched on to it like a rock climber on a roap. It carried me through 21 years of the bs I put up with and even now after I'm out.
I was in the army when I took the class. Without TWI, I would have become a lifer and had the personality of pack of camels.
I was so naive about life I probably would have become a drug addict or something stupid like that. I certainly would have been a greater mess without TWI than I ended up with TWI.
I don't like what VPW and LCM did to the ministry. Even today when I witness to someone and get into the depth of teaching I have them to use as an example of people who got tricked. Thankfully, the Bible is still the Bible. Men come and go.
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Abigail
Rascal, if I had that much power would I be drugging and raping? Destroying lives deliberately? No. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't do other things that were wrong and hurtful.
I strongly believe that a public body (I use the term public somewhat loosely here) be it a school, a government, or even a church, needs a system of checks and balances.
I sit on a school board. I would hate to think of what would happen if any one person on the board, or if the superintendent had all the power. I hate to think what would happen if all the board members and the superintendent were all buddy buddy and no one spoke up with differing view points or in opposition to something they thought was a bad idea.
I don't know all the ins and outs of every issue that comes before the board - it would be impossible for me too. Nor does anyone else who sits on that board. But TOGETHER, with the input of everyone, I think we usually make pretty good decisions.
I think it should be the same with churches. They need a board of directors that can function properly.
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oldiesman
A man named Stefan Emerick started things off in the Bronx, in 1971. Fortunately for me, he lived just around the corner. His mom Annie was a waitress in Riverdale and knew my mom who also was a waitress. My mom began twigs in 1972 and the rest of us followed shortly thereafter.
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WordWolf
So, in 1971, S+efan E was sent by twi to the Bronx, correct?
Was the next step twi sending H33fn3r, and if so, what year was that?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that twi was a cult built on the charismatic personality of Cornfield Vic....without Vic, there is no twi...end of story.
Had there been no twi, the sincere Christians who got involved would have found Christian groups or churches to get involved with...As far as Doop and Heefner...Wierwille was a thief, he stole their "followers" just like he stole his class and his books...A lot of lives missed out on "what coulda been" because of twi.
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now I see
WW, I don't think he meant to say that vpw sent Heefn*r, I think Heefn*r got that directly from the Source. Maybe we could get more details of the big picture from someone who was there. I am also interested to know historically, what got Stephen E started, it sounds like he was native to the Bronx area.
There is so much murkiness about those days, I wish someone had it written down
in detail in book form.
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