I kinda agree that TWI will hold onto HQ and if they needed to sell something it would be Gunnison, which could be marketed as almost a resort. I've never been there so I don't really know what it's like.
They cuold downsize in Ohio by selling some of the land. Personally, I would be sorry to see them get rid of HQ. As Shellon said, her children's father is buried there, as are others, excluding the founding three and their respective spouses. A simple study of where the money pits are would suffice, someone mentioned the OSC building, which never did look like a good idea to me.
Farmland in NW Ohio is gold! You can grow anything there. That parking lot didn't grow great corn because the hallowed tires of the saints drove over it a couple times a year, but because it was in northwestern Ohio. Even a dim bulb like HA should know that!
skyrider, I appreciate your observation about the "life in the twig" thing
Watered, you're right... that parking lot was good dirt.... I remember being knee deep in topsoil mud there, six of us at a time pushing cars to get them unstuck after a rain.
waysider,
Remember, VPW was first and foremost a businessman.
I think your MLM comment is on the mark. What VPW was, "first and formost," I would suggest, might not be as tidy as you suggest. Imagine asking Oldiesman, rascal, WordWolf, and George Aar what VPW was "first and foremost." As for myself, I would not hazard a guess.
edited to add: Liz and I were married in the Way Woods' campfire area. IMO, the grounds at HQ have been both hallowed and desecrated. I like to think the campfire area could remain as it was, but I have no say in the matter, and if it became farmland, God bless the man who plows it.
I take exception to comments about RR's motivations (and others' motivations) being about retirement funds and similar comments about secret bank accounts and all, whether it was TWI 1, 2, or 3. Maybe there's real proof out there, or at least something that convinces the post-ers. (Don't bother posting links to your "proof." On second thought, post away. Somebody might care.) I've seen one picture of trustees at an island location. I may disapprove of their points of view spiritually, but they worked, and I would have no problem (if I had anything to say about it) for them to change venues for a little R and R, and my gut (for what it's worth... not much) was that they probably worked on stuff while they were there, as well as played. Some could care less what the Bible says, but again, for what it's worth... I think much!) there is coming a day when the righteous judge will lay open the motivation of men's hearts, including VP, RR, and each of us at GSC. I am prepared to be surprised. Likewise about speculation as to whether certain people are "born again." That dumbfounds me.
I take exception to comments about RR's motivations (and others' motivations) being about retirement funds and similar comments about secret bank accounts and all, whether it was TWI 1, 2, or 3. Maybe there's real proof out there, or at least something that convinces the post-ers.
(Don't bother posting links to your "proof." On second thought, post away. Somebody might care.) I've seen one picture of trustees at an island location. I may disapprove of their points of view spiritually, but they worked, and I would have no problem (if I had anything to say about it) for them to change venues for a little R and R, and my gut (for what it's worth... not much) was that they probably worked on stuff while they were there, as well as played. Some could care less what the Bible says, but again, for what it's worth... I think much!) there is coming a day when the righteous judge will lay open the motivation of men's hearts, including VP, RR, and each of us at GSC. I am prepared to be surprised. Likewise about speculation as to whether certain people are "born again." That dumbfounds me.
Well, Dan, if you don't want to know what some of us know, is it necessarily wise to "take exception" to the things we say? :blink: :wacko:
And, I suppose if you've never lived at poverty or near poverty level because of the legalism, oppression, guilt and verbal abuse of leadership, you couldn't possibly understand how watching them go to luxurious retreats in tropical, expensive locations for vacations that none of us were able to have, much less allowed to have, then you couldn't understand that either.
I don't mind your questioning or disagreeing with us, but, darnit man, if you're gonna do that, then you should at least be willing to consider our perspective and knowledge of the situation that causes us to think and feel that way.
When we agreed to the burial of my husbands remains in the way woods it was a great choice at the time; he loved those woods.
Little did I know how life would unfold over the next months. (oh to have that magic ball huh?)
However, your comments didn't offend me, I said what I said as an agreement.
It's something that my girls and I have discussed and have come to understand and realize that we have no control over that situation and regardless, their dad loved those woods, whatever happens in the future.
Having said that I do agree that it would be a shame to have that area destroyed or altered, just for the reason of the families who's loved ones are interred there.
As an aside, my eldest daughter visited a few years back and she was able to get some of the dirt from their dad's burial place. This burial was done with pictures taken so we have photos of the exact location around the campfire.
Additionally we have a memorial daddy tree and a cemetary plot we've not done anything with yet. So, in that regard we are not without options.
Food for thought: If they do have so much money socked away, why do they continue to forego routine maintenance on facilities at HQ. Correct me if wrong, but my understanding is that a lot of buildings there are NOT being cared for like they should { Auditorium & Founders Hall } for starters.
Also, I believe that counsel has advised them { RR & co } they would have to maintain corporate office in Ohio as that was the way corporate charter is written when ole DocVic and Uncle Harry signed the property over to TWI . If they moved to Colorado, they would have to redraft corporate charter and also would have to reapply to IRS re: tax exempt status for the elite. They do not want to spend any more money than thet have to. They want that nest egg intact for their later years.
They do not want to spend any more money than thet have to. They want that nest egg intact for their later years.
My understanding, which very well could be wrong, is not that the buildings are in a state of disrepair or neglect, merely not kept to the ridiculously pristine and anal retentive levels that they had been in the past. That could be attributed to lack of manpower rather than lack of funds. We know they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank.
Since my childrens father is buried there, I'd have to agree
Shellon - For the record - I meant no offence to you and did think of your childrens' father when I made that post (and others who have scattered ashes in the Way Woods) but was, in fact, referring to the rumor and also the proverbial "bodies". I pray my post didn't upset you, but I also assume you'd PM me if I ever crossed that line with you.
Thanks Belle, I can understand that. I know we've seen all kinds of notes coming out of "Beautiful Ohio" looking for ppl to fill open staff positions. I can't understand why someone wouldn't JUMP at the opportunity to work in Paradise for peanuts, 50+ hours a week and get to hangh around Foxie & co. Ummm..... you suppose the innies are actually smarter than the BOD admits they are???
None. They just take the millions they would make from the sale and it still belongs to them as far as I can tell. As long as they do not profit from it personally. Howerver according to Pat Roberge (may he rest in peace) Gunnison is a separate corpopration called Camp Gunnison, Inc. so not sure how that would come into play.
They should simplify and get rid of that huge headquarters land. It's senseless now in the modern day and times we live in. Reminds me of the Branch Davidian's 77 acre property in Texas.
All they need to do is transfer New Knoxville's assets to Camp Gunnison Inc. then the Owners of Camp Gunnison Inc. can sell the Ohio assets.
I doubt they would do that, real estate is always preferable to cash, New Knoxville sits on a natural spring I think so it's prime farming land. What's more likely is once they have milked the intellectual property of VPW's books and classes for all it's worth I think they'll drop back, retool and come out with something different. if they are smart.
Right now they are just riding it out trying to hold their ground and if they haven't burned up Uncle Harry's Gold then they have a line of credit that will hold them through the tight cash flow times. Plus there's the Credit Union...
No shame in downsizing. Failing corporations do it all the time.
But that's probably why they'll resist further downsizing vigorously. Because failing ain't Prevailing.
It's bad enough to lose Emporia, Rome City, and the other bastions of believing and outreach once held by the Way, but I would think downsizing Zion, I mean New Knoxville itself would be completely demoralizing to the Faithful Remnant.
Belle, I hear you, but my point goes to guessing at people's motivations. I know that many have a lot of "dirt" on other people, much of which can indeed be indicators of their hearts' motivations. I'm just speaking for myself, and my reluctance to judge, even based upon hard evidence. I could share with you some of the relationships and events that brought me to this place in my life, and I could share with you how I feel about certain things Jesus and Paul taught, but I am not here to win you over to my way of thinking. Post all you want about the sins of the leaders of the Way, and pronounce your indignation about it, and make all the conclusions you want. I think of myself more as a "guest" here than a "member," though I guess technically I am one, and grateful for it. If the point is to tell "the other side of the story," that's fine. But there does seem to be room for a range of viewpoints, and I have mine. I haven't yet been informed that it is unwelcome. If I am later so informed, I will excuse myself.
Others have the scriptures TO judge, and I respect that. I sometimes find it hard to decide whether in a certain situation, I should "use" the judgement verses or the mercy verses, so to speak. I'm sure you, like me, have had enough of people "using" the Word to batter other people. That was part of the problem, right? I too want to tell another side of the story (not "THE" other side). I have no right to disallow anyone else from telling how they see it. That's all I'm doing. People can take it or leave it. You apparently don't like my point of view, and I can accept that.
edited to add: It's not entirely accurate to say that I'm not here to win you over to my way of thinking. I would restate that. I am here to add my voice to the conversation. I'm also here to listen. So, strictly speaking, I'm not here to win you over, as I said, but if what I offer has merit, I would hope it has an impact.
Dan, I have no problem with your point of view. I have a problem with you judging (yes, your words do come across as judgmental) those who have viewpoints different from yours and especially then not even having the courtesy to read or consider why they have come to different conclusions than you have. You say in this post that you're here to listen, yet, each time I've provided or offered to provide proof for statements that you question, you say "don't bother posting a bunch of links" and "I don't have time to read all the proof you've put in front of me". Maybe you are here to listen, but not to something that would shatter your bubble?
You lived in the grand illusion days of TWI when everything was butterflies and rainbows and everyone loved each other and rapes weren't happening and people weren't being abused in every way, shape and form. Everyone was a saint. Every day a gift. I realize that. I don't begrudge that, in fact, I wish I had some experiences like that during my TWI days and I love reading the threads when folks get to waxing nostalgic about those halcyon days.
You just don't seem to know, care or want to know about the ugly underside of TWI, nor do you seem to want those of us with knowledge and experiences with it to share what we know. It's entirely possible to share "your side" as you say without denigrating, judging and second-guessing those of us who have a different point of view. I haven't seen you do that. You've basically called us liars and full of conjecture - which is not the case.
RailRoader, they're still trying their darndest to get people to move to HQ, eh? No surprise. A friend of mine signed up to work ONE YEAR at HQ and they lied, coerced and forced her to work another year. I'm sure she's not the only person that's happened to.
My ex wanted so badly to go WayDisciple and/or Way Corps. I told him I was too old to be working part-time in a fast food restaurant and I sure as he11 wasn't going to live in a dorm with a bunch of other serfs. I can imagine that others have come to the conclusion that it's not "all that" anymore. Maybe when I was in my late teens, early 20's and not concerned about having a real job, a family and a future.... but not now. Almost everyone I know who has done it has regretted it or is at least of the mind that they would never do it again. It's easy to see them scramble for good things to share about their experience.
You just don't seem to know, care or want to know about the ugly underside of TWI, nor do you seem to want those of us with knowledge and experiences with it to share what we know. It's entirely possible to share "your side" as you say without denigrating, judging and second-guessing those of us who have a different point of view. I haven't seen you do that. You've basically called us liars and full of conjecture - which is not the case.
I know about it, I care about it. I have no problems with those of you with knowledge and experiences sharing what you know or have experienced. But it "seem"s that way to you.
I haven't called anyone a liar. I believe that people have told lies here; I know for certain that rumors fly. "Conjecture" certainly figures in. I think anyone with any sense at all would agree to all of that.
You responded to a minor part of my post, and I don't fault you for that. That's the issue that pushed your button. That's what you care about. It's my opinion; you don't like it. That's where we stand.
I was, as you suggest, naive, and "illusion" is not too strong a word. For a long, long, time. I own up to that. I now know about and care about "the seedy unbelly." I have very little first-hand knowledge of it, and don't have much to offer in that vein. I also don't have a desire to infer from certain reported incidents what the motivations of others is or may have been. I'm concerned with the question as to how I personally can live in accordance with correct principles and values. That's pretty much where I come from, and that's generally what I discuss. That's why I'm generally in "the basement." There's a lot less of the stuff I find distasteful down there.
I appreciate your feedback, and I'm sorry I don't seem to you to know or care about ugly stuff that happened in the Way. It's helpful for me to have your input.
edit: Maybe I should go on record, here (though, Belle, I doubt it will satisfy you that I'm an upstanding member of GSC!) and say that I have read a great deal of the "seedy underbelly" stuff, both recently and maybe ten years ago. I have not read it all, and as far as I'm concerned, I've read enough. I find some very troubling allegations credible. Some of it, I doubt. Those matters concerning taking advantage of "the flock", especially in the sexual category, should be condemned in the strongest terms. That is akin to priests or child-care workers molesting children. Some who post here have stories to tell of how they were victimized. To marginalize their stories or their feelings would be wrong. I do believe, as many here do, that GSC has been a godsend for people to sort their feelings and experiences out. It is fertile ground for people to get together and make some kind of sense of their Way Ministry experience, to revisit the things we experienced and understand it better, with the help of others, and because of our own growth and experience since our days there. All this is a big part of GSC and About the Way. There is also the doctrinal side, which I believe can be at the root of problems like these, and I generally post along those lines, because in my journey of recovery, that's where I've gone. It's how I've dealt with the pain, and it's how I've been able to continue in the joy of my experience. I try not to step on anyone's toes, and I try to be respectful of others' viewpoints and the issues with which they are grappling. I've had to reckon with lack of empathy on my part, as I've continued post-TWI. I've been a sinner there, and I may still have some work to do in that category.
It is always a lot easier, more peaceful if you will....to hold on to our beliefs concerning ourselves and that which we have given allegiance.
It can be very uncomfortable to examine the more unpleasant aspects of those who claim to represent truth...and to evaluate what the implications are to our perceptions of ourselves and our beliefs.
Much easier to label that which we find distasteful as exaggerations or lies in order to remain comfortable about ourselves, and our beliefs.
It takes some real guts to honestly evaluate all of the information.
It is always a lot easier, more peaceful if you will....to hold on to our beliefs concerning ourselves and that which we have given allegiance.
It can be very uncomfortable to examine the more unpleasant aspects of those who claim to represent truth...and to evaluate what the implications are to our perceptions of ourselves and our beliefs.
Much easier to label that which we find distasteful as exaggerations or lies in order to remain comfortable about ourselves, and our beliefs.
It takes some real guts to honestly evaluate all of the information.
Rascal, I agree with everything you just said. I will only add, it also takes time. Time to sort and process. Time to assess the information.
It took me quite some time to come to terms with the idea that VPW did the things he did. It took reading the account of more than one woman. It took getting to know at least know of those women over time.
And space too, because too much too fast is just plain overwhelming.
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Shellon
Since my childrens father is buried there, I'd have to agree
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dmiller
Shellon -- I did not know that.
Sorry I was *flippant* with my earlier comments.
Apologies --- David
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waysider
My apologies also, Shellon.
I thought Chas. was toying with a rumor that had floated around for awhile.
Sorry,
Waysider
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Watered Garden
I kinda agree that TWI will hold onto HQ and if they needed to sell something it would be Gunnison, which could be marketed as almost a resort. I've never been there so I don't really know what it's like.
They cuold downsize in Ohio by selling some of the land. Personally, I would be sorry to see them get rid of HQ. As Shellon said, her children's father is buried there, as are others, excluding the founding three and their respective spouses. A simple study of where the money pits are would suffice, someone mentioned the OSC building, which never did look like a good idea to me.
Farmland in NW Ohio is gold! You can grow anything there. That parking lot didn't grow great corn because the hallowed tires of the saints drove over it a couple times a year, but because it was in northwestern Ohio. Even a dim bulb like HA should know that!
WG
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anotherDan
skyrider, I appreciate your observation about the "life in the twig" thing
Watered, you're right... that parking lot was good dirt.... I remember being knee deep in topsoil mud there, six of us at a time pushing cars to get them unstuck after a rain.
waysider,
I think your MLM comment is on the mark. What VPW was, "first and formost," I would suggest, might not be as tidy as you suggest. Imagine asking Oldiesman, rascal, WordWolf, and George Aar what VPW was "first and foremost." As for myself, I would not hazard a guess.
edited to add: Liz and I were married in the Way Woods' campfire area. IMO, the grounds at HQ have been both hallowed and desecrated. I like to think the campfire area could remain as it was, but I have no say in the matter, and if it became farmland, God bless the man who plows it.
I take exception to comments about RR's motivations (and others' motivations) being about retirement funds and similar comments about secret bank accounts and all, whether it was TWI 1, 2, or 3. Maybe there's real proof out there, or at least something that convinces the post-ers. (Don't bother posting links to your "proof." On second thought, post away. Somebody might care.) I've seen one picture of trustees at an island location. I may disapprove of their points of view spiritually, but they worked, and I would have no problem (if I had anything to say about it) for them to change venues for a little R and R, and my gut (for what it's worth... not much) was that they probably worked on stuff while they were there, as well as played. Some could care less what the Bible says, but again, for what it's worth... I think much!) there is coming a day when the righteous judge will lay open the motivation of men's hearts, including VP, RR, and each of us at GSC. I am prepared to be surprised. Likewise about speculation as to whether certain people are "born again." That dumbfounds me.
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Belle
Well, Dan, if you don't want to know what some of us know, is it necessarily wise to "take exception" to the things we say? :blink: :wacko:
And, I suppose if you've never lived at poverty or near poverty level because of the legalism, oppression, guilt and verbal abuse of leadership, you couldn't possibly understand how watching them go to luxurious retreats in tropical, expensive locations for vacations that none of us were able to have, much less allowed to have, then you couldn't understand that either.
I don't mind your questioning or disagreeing with us, but, darnit man, if you're gonna do that, then you should at least be willing to consider our perspective and knowledge of the situation that causes us to think and feel that way.
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Shellon
dmiller and waysider :)
Thank you for the considerate apologies.
When we agreed to the burial of my husbands remains in the way woods it was a great choice at the time; he loved those woods.
Little did I know how life would unfold over the next months. (oh to have that magic ball huh?)
However, your comments didn't offend me, I said what I said as an agreement.
It's something that my girls and I have discussed and have come to understand and realize that we have no control over that situation and regardless, their dad loved those woods, whatever happens in the future.
Having said that I do agree that it would be a shame to have that area destroyed or altered, just for the reason of the families who's loved ones are interred there.
As an aside, my eldest daughter visited a few years back and she was able to get some of the dirt from their dad's burial place. This burial was done with pictures taken so we have photos of the exact location around the campfire.
Additionally we have a memorial daddy tree and a cemetary plot we've not done anything with yet. So, in that regard we are not without options.
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railroader II
Food for thought: If they do have so much money socked away, why do they continue to forego routine maintenance on facilities at HQ. Correct me if wrong, but my understanding is that a lot of buildings there are NOT being cared for like they should { Auditorium & Founders Hall } for starters.
Also, I believe that counsel has advised them { RR & co } they would have to maintain corporate office in Ohio as that was the way corporate charter is written when ole DocVic and Uncle Harry signed the property over to TWI
. If they moved to Colorado, they would have to redraft corporate charter and also would have to reapply to IRS re: tax exempt status for the elite. They do not want to spend any more money than thet have to. They want that nest egg intact for their later years.
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Belle
RR, you answered your own question.
My understanding, which very well could be wrong, is not that the buildings are in a state of disrepair or neglect, merely not kept to the ridiculously pristine and anal retentive levels that they had been in the past. That could be attributed to lack of manpower rather than lack of funds. We know they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank.
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ChasUFarley
Shellon - For the record - I meant no offence to you and did think of your childrens' father when I made that post (and others who have scattered ashes in the Way Woods) but was, in fact, referring to the rumor and also the proverbial "bodies". I pray my post didn't upset you, but I also assume you'd PM me if I ever crossed that line with you.
Peace,
-K
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Shellon
Of course, Chas, I'd say something.
:)
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railroader II
Thanks Belle, I can understand that. I know we've seen all kinds of notes coming out of "Beautiful Ohio" looking for ppl to fill open staff positions. I can't understand why someone wouldn't JUMP at the opportunity to work in Paradise for peanuts, 50+ hours a week and get to hangh around Foxie & co. Ummm..... you suppose the innies are actually smarter than the BOD admits they are???
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Seth R.
All they need to do is transfer New Knoxville's assets to Camp Gunnison Inc. then the Owners of Camp Gunnison Inc. can sell the Ohio assets.
I doubt they would do that, real estate is always preferable to cash, New Knoxville sits on a natural spring I think so it's prime farming land. What's more likely is once they have milked the intellectual property of VPW's books and classes for all it's worth I think they'll drop back, retool and come out with something different. if they are smart.
Right now they are just riding it out trying to hold their ground and if they haven't burned up Uncle Harry's Gold then they have a line of credit that will hold them through the tight cash flow times. Plus there's the Credit Union...
Seth
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Kevlar2000
But that's probably why they'll resist further downsizing vigorously. Because failing ain't Prevailing.
It's bad enough to lose Emporia, Rome City, and the other bastions of believing and outreach once held by the Way, but I would think downsizing Zion, I mean New Knoxville itself would be completely demoralizing to the Faithful Remnant.
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anotherDan
Belle, I hear you, but my point goes to guessing at people's motivations. I know that many have a lot of "dirt" on other people, much of which can indeed be indicators of their hearts' motivations. I'm just speaking for myself, and my reluctance to judge, even based upon hard evidence. I could share with you some of the relationships and events that brought me to this place in my life, and I could share with you how I feel about certain things Jesus and Paul taught, but I am not here to win you over to my way of thinking. Post all you want about the sins of the leaders of the Way, and pronounce your indignation about it, and make all the conclusions you want. I think of myself more as a "guest" here than a "member," though I guess technically I am one, and grateful for it. If the point is to tell "the other side of the story," that's fine. But there does seem to be room for a range of viewpoints, and I have mine. I haven't yet been informed that it is unwelcome. If I am later so informed, I will excuse myself.
Others have the scriptures TO judge, and I respect that. I sometimes find it hard to decide whether in a certain situation, I should "use" the judgement verses or the mercy verses, so to speak. I'm sure you, like me, have had enough of people "using" the Word to batter other people. That was part of the problem, right? I too want to tell another side of the story (not "THE" other side). I have no right to disallow anyone else from telling how they see it. That's all I'm doing. People can take it or leave it. You apparently don't like my point of view, and I can accept that.
edited to add: It's not entirely accurate to say that I'm not here to win you over to my way of thinking. I would restate that. I am here to add my voice to the conversation. I'm also here to listen. So, strictly speaking, I'm not here to win you over, as I said, but if what I offer has merit, I would hope it has an impact.
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Belle
Dan, I have no problem with your point of view. I have a problem with you judging (yes, your words do come across as judgmental) those who have viewpoints different from yours and especially then not even having the courtesy to read or consider why they have come to different conclusions than you have. You say in this post that you're here to listen, yet, each time I've provided or offered to provide proof for statements that you question, you say "don't bother posting a bunch of links" and "I don't have time to read all the proof you've put in front of me". Maybe you are here to listen, but not to something that would shatter your bubble?
You lived in the grand illusion days of TWI when everything was butterflies and rainbows and everyone loved each other and rapes weren't happening and people weren't being abused in every way, shape and form. Everyone was a saint. Every day a gift. I realize that. I don't begrudge that, in fact, I wish I had some experiences like that during my TWI days and I love reading the threads when folks get to waxing nostalgic about those halcyon days.
You just don't seem to know, care or want to know about the ugly underside of TWI, nor do you seem to want those of us with knowledge and experiences with it to share what we know. It's entirely possible to share "your side" as you say without denigrating, judging and second-guessing those of us who have a different point of view. I haven't seen you do that. You've basically called us liars and full of conjecture - which is not the case.
RailRoader, they're still trying their darndest to get people to move to HQ, eh?
No surprise. A friend of mine signed up to work ONE YEAR at HQ and they lied, coerced and forced her to work another year. I'm sure she's not the only person that's happened to.
My ex wanted so badly to go WayDisciple and/or Way Corps. I told him I was too old to be working part-time in a fast food restaurant and I sure as he11 wasn't going to live in a dorm with a bunch of other serfs. I can imagine that others have come to the conclusion that it's not "all that" anymore. Maybe when I was in my late teens, early 20's and not concerned about having a real job, a family and a future.... but not now. Almost everyone I know who has done it has regretted it or is at least of the mind that they would never do it again. It's easy to see them scramble for good things to share about their experience.
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anotherDan
I know about it, I care about it. I have no problems with those of you with knowledge and experiences sharing what you know or have experienced. But it "seem"s that way to you.
I haven't called anyone a liar. I believe that people have told lies here; I know for certain that rumors fly. "Conjecture" certainly figures in. I think anyone with any sense at all would agree to all of that.
You responded to a minor part of my post, and I don't fault you for that. That's the issue that pushed your button. That's what you care about. It's my opinion; you don't like it. That's where we stand.
I was, as you suggest, naive, and "illusion" is not too strong a word. For a long, long, time. I own up to that. I now know about and care about "the seedy unbelly." I have very little first-hand knowledge of it, and don't have much to offer in that vein. I also don't have a desire to infer from certain reported incidents what the motivations of others is or may have been. I'm concerned with the question as to how I personally can live in accordance with correct principles and values. That's pretty much where I come from, and that's generally what I discuss. That's why I'm generally in "the basement." There's a lot less of the stuff I find distasteful down there.
I appreciate your feedback, and I'm sorry I don't seem to you to know or care about ugly stuff that happened in the Way. It's helpful for me to have your input.
edit: Maybe I should go on record, here (though, Belle, I doubt it will satisfy you that I'm an upstanding member of GSC!) and say that I have read a great deal of the "seedy underbelly" stuff, both recently and maybe ten years ago. I have not read it all, and as far as I'm concerned, I've read enough. I find some very troubling allegations credible. Some of it, I doubt. Those matters concerning taking advantage of "the flock", especially in the sexual category, should be condemned in the strongest terms. That is akin to priests or child-care workers molesting children. Some who post here have stories to tell of how they were victimized. To marginalize their stories or their feelings would be wrong. I do believe, as many here do, that GSC has been a godsend for people to sort their feelings and experiences out. It is fertile ground for people to get together and make some kind of sense of their Way Ministry experience, to revisit the things we experienced and understand it better, with the help of others, and because of our own growth and experience since our days there. All this is a big part of GSC and About the Way. There is also the doctrinal side, which I believe can be at the root of problems like these, and I generally post along those lines, because in my journey of recovery, that's where I've gone. It's how I've dealt with the pain, and it's how I've been able to continue in the joy of my experience. I try not to step on anyone's toes, and I try to be respectful of others' viewpoints and the issues with which they are grappling. I've had to reckon with lack of empathy on my part, as I've continued post-TWI. I've been a sinner there, and I may still have some work to do in that category.
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rascal
It is always a lot easier, more peaceful if you will....to hold on to our beliefs concerning ourselves and that which we have given allegiance.
It can be very uncomfortable to examine the more unpleasant aspects of those who claim to represent truth...and to evaluate what the implications are to our perceptions of ourselves and our beliefs.
Much easier to label that which we find distasteful as exaggerations or lies in order to remain comfortable about ourselves, and our beliefs.
It takes some real guts to honestly evaluate all of the information.
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anotherDan
I agree with every word of that, Rascal.
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Abigail
Rascal, I agree with everything you just said. I will only add, it also takes time. Time to sort and process. Time to assess the information.
It took me quite some time to come to terms with the idea that VPW did the things he did. It took reading the account of more than one woman. It took getting to know at least know of those women over time.
And space too, because too much too fast is just plain overwhelming.
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rascal
Absolutely, you guys are correct. It took me many years. I will try not to forget that.
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Abigail
See Rascal, that is why I love you and count you as a true friend. :)
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rascal
I consider that an honor, thank you abi.
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