If Dr. Wierwille had been an honest to goodness believer, and was true to his wife, and not into making money, nor heavy drinking and was into changing anything he found out was wrong in the doctrine taught by the way.
snip
I stayed in not knowing he was anything OTHER than the things you listed!
We knew nothing about any sex scandals while we were in TWI( left in the late nineties.) When we left we thought something was wrong with our particular area leadership, and that we weren't strong enough to stay the course until the next corps changes.
We flipped between thinking something was wrong with us, and something was wrong with TWI for at least a year after leaving. Then we heard about the Craig stories, and other leadership things that had happened. We were doing so much better in areas of life we'd been struggling with while in TWi...we quit thinking there was something wrong with us.
I suspect I'd still be in TWI if we had not been targeted and treated like ca ca. But since that did happen, it started me to think--why were we treated like that in the name of God? What was behind it, what led to that ugly way of life?
If the leadership had realized that my son needed ADHD medication and some counselling, and had treated him with love and respect and compassion, rather than labelling him possessed and treating him like dirt on their shoes.
If they had minded their own business and stayed out of my marriage.
If WC had treated us like brothers and sisters rather than slaves.
If leadership had recognized that our "earthly families" were just as important as they were to our lives.
If they had taught that Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind, not LCM or VPW (IMO).
And like most, we had NO idea about the sexual improprietries that went on. That in itself would have been an excellent reason to leave.
And I don't think I could have stayed anyway. To much pressure after I was diagnosed with diabetes.
If Dr. Wierwille had been an honest to goodness believer, and was true to his wife, and not into making money, nor heavy drinking and was into changing anything he found out was wrong in the doctrine taught by the way.
And if he had turned it over to a honest to goodness minister after he wanted to retire. If there is such a thing.
(Boy that's a lot of stuff)
If frogs could fly they wouldn't bump their butts when they hop...
I would have stayed if Craig would have used his abilities, which were vast, to preserve the good and chuck the bad, make it a real biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry that baptized believers, loved all other Christians and non-Christians. And if we were encouraged to read folks like Bruce M. Metzger, F.F. Bruce, etc, reinstituted a reformed version of ROA and the WOW program, sending out people to work and heal and bless folks all over the world out of a genuine concern and love for our fellowmen. But, of course, that didn't happen. I would have stuck it out even if it took us a while to work out all the details.
If Dr. Wierwille had been an honest to goodness believer, and was true to his wife, and not into making money, nor heavy drinking and was into changing anything he found out was wrong in the doctrine taught by the way.
And if he had turned it over to a honest to goodness minister after he wanted to retire. If there is such a thing.
(Boy that's a lot of stuff)
That's a lot of IFs, really. Honestly, I don't know if I would have stayed IF re: VPW. He was gone before I ever got involved. He never directly harmed my life. Indirectly? That's another question. IF VPW had been all of those things, would there have been an LCM? Would LCM have become the man he did? Would so many have been spared the hurt they experienced?
if things hadn't gone south, i suppose i might still be in. but for me personally, the thought of that makes me cringe. i'm so glad i'm out and back to myself. looking back, i hate who and what i became. even though there was something nice, comforting about thinking you had all the answers, i'm much happier being my own me. and i'm perfectly fine with not "knowing." in the end, that's the only thing i really needed to "change my mind" about.
reinstituted a reformed version of ROA and the WOW program...
Is that the Calvinistic version of those programs? Oh sorry, wrong thread. (You know, reformed theology, bad joke, I know, but I've been reading about Calvinism for the other thread and the word REFORMED just jumped out at me.
Would I have stayed?
Hard to say, so many ifs. So many other things wrong...
My prayer and heart's desire is to be where God wants me.
in a simple word no. "The Teacher's" impropieties didn't affect me I wasn't close enuff . I started to get a hinky (don't ask cos I don't know) feeling about 1980 when the LC for Washington got remarried and that was so against what I believed the bible said.
Since I don't own a bible now I can't quote or even look up the verse but the gist of it is that a leader should be the husband of one wife. correct me if I'm wrong ( and I have no doubts that some1 here will do that). I just got a kinda WTF feeling from that and that changed my outlook even though I stayed for 6 more years.
bulwinkl, interesting reply. thanks for sharing that.
I got a hinky (don't ask, 'cause I don't know either) feeling once at a meeting where LCM taught, and I was thinking, "I'm glad I didn't bring anybody to this meeting."
wrds, I wonder if St. Paul could see us today. Would he object if we microwaved his words and said, "My little children, in whom I travail in birth again until Christ be reformed in you."?
In addition to suppossed "what if's", had Wierwille remained in the United Church of Christ while doing Biblical Research on the side as a hobby, and not plagerized other people's writings, and been openly ecumenical to other denominations, and not demand us to leave our denominational churches, then maybe. But this is all hypotheoretical.
I have always wanted to do what God wants me to do. If He had wanted me to stay then I definately would have. But, He didn't so there is no sense in guessing
It all goes back to the statement " If the queen had balls she would be king", well the queen doesn't and she ain't.
Would you have been drawn to TWI if any of those things had been diff? Who the hell knows? This is a complete exercise in mental futility. "The teacher" teaches these things, You get involved , then everything changes? get real ppl , You have know idea what the ministry woulda been like if "The Teacher" had first of all said , "God told me that he would teach me the word like it had not been known since the first century,If i tell ppl about all the plagarism I do." how the hell does that make sense. we paid attention because something in it filled our need. plain and simple. If "the teacher" changes anything perhaps it doesn't fill our need anymore. So to talk as "would I have stayed if" is simple mental masturbation as far as I'm concerned.
If Dr. Wierwille had been an honest to goodness believer, and was true to his wife, and not into making money, nor heavy drinking and was into changing anything he found out was wrong in the doctrine taught by the way.
And if he had turned it over to a honest to goodness minister after he wanted to retire. If there is such a thing.
(Boy that's a lot of stuff)
Those kind of "IFs" make it harder to leave if you were already involved. I think the hardest part for most to leave right now is the fact that they are leaving God's ministry. That mind-set in itself can be the hardest thing to break. I dealt with those thought for several months even after leaving. I was waiting for the adversary to come in and break me. The hardest part after leaving was ridding myself of waybrain.
I still steer clear of any group who promotes they have more truth than anyone else.
hinky(heen key)n. The look your dog gives you when you make a strange sound, The tilting of the head exhibited by the dog, Not enough to cause a bark but just what is going on here type of look. Bulwinkl's unabridged dictionary First edition 2007
Edited cos this dictionary is a work in progress in other words a "Living Dictionary"
Good points everyone. There are a lot of other "ifs". I just wanted to know what others thought. Maybe we can help some get out who are still thinking about what the "ifs" are for them.
I'm glad I'm out and I don't think any religion would suit my bill. I do love to help others and give. I'll just do it when I want to do it, not when I'm told to as I know the twits are.
hinky(heen key)n. The look your dog gives you when you make a strange sound, The tilting of the head exhibited by the dog, Not enough to cause a bark but just what is going on here type of look. Bulwinkl's unabridged dictionary First edition 2007
If Dr. Wierwille had been an honest to goodness believer, and was true to his wife, and not into making money, nor heavy drinking and was into changing anything he found out was wrong in the doctrine taught by the way.
And if he had turned it over to a honest to goodness minister after he wanted to retire. If there is such a thing.
(Boy that's a lot of stuff)
That's an awful lot of "ifs"...
If grandma had a pair of testicles, they'd call her grandpa...
There were a lot of good and godly things and wonderfully loving, giving and talented people during my 20 odd years there. I came to learn the word and to work it and to have a relationship with God! I did that and I since will always be able to keep and maintain that relationship with God; even in spite of the cruelties I endured and I wish had never happened. They did hurt and hindered us all in various ways and to varying degrees. They have had a very profound and pronounced painful impact in our lives even now. The end has not yet been written, so to speak on our end..the free will part of our responsibility. What we do with our lives now to love and to honor God; to heal and to grow will help the scars fade and we can become stronger, continually growing. We can extend our hands to help others escape their trappings, sicknesses and prisons.
The underlying motives, imbalances, and prejudices of mankind are always there in some members of any group, congregation or "cult" and they show themselves when the motives of peoples hearts disintegrate and their personal inadequacies, imbalances, and unresolved issues emerge to the surface and can no longer remain hidden or disguised. The "You can run , but you can't hide" from yourself theory holds some truth here. Their true agenda changes when they are seduced by lusts of the world, it's many greeds, and the narcissism and selfishnesses of some. (I am studying Proverbs chapters 1 to 6 now; so it may color this a little)
At times I was too naive and ill informed to see TWI's underbelly of deceitful (mostly) leadership. A lot of things hurt me and I questioned them mainly on the believing issues concerning Josh's healing. I was asked to leave as I didn't fit into their regimented agenda and would not give my son up to go Corp and to always be able to attend other functions. God lovingly walked me away and stays with me, teaches me, loves and counsels me. He has proven His word to me and Josh. In Him alone do I truly trust. Even when we were secluded the ten years after God has truly blessed and amazed me with His love and comfort and strength.
It seems that we need to teach our children well so they can grow into healthy adults, this would help limit the amount of abominable leaders and others from cropping up with their destructive evils. If in our lives now we take away God's Word and God and apply it toward helping each other heal so that we don't get caught in the same snares they did and all the other snares set for us in this life; then perhaps the affects and effects inflicted by TWI or any other sources will be diminished and some even be demolished!
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waysider
I stayed in not knowing he was anything OTHER than the things you listed!
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Bramble
We knew nothing about any sex scandals while we were in TWI( left in the late nineties.) When we left we thought something was wrong with our particular area leadership, and that we weren't strong enough to stay the course until the next corps changes.
We flipped between thinking something was wrong with us, and something was wrong with TWI for at least a year after leaving. Then we heard about the Craig stories, and other leadership things that had happened. We were doing so much better in areas of life we'd been struggling with while in TWi...we quit thinking there was something wrong with us.
I suspect I'd still be in TWI if we had not been targeted and treated like ca ca. But since that did happen, it started me to think--why were we treated like that in the name of God? What was behind it, what led to that ugly way of life?
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Watered Garden
What Waysider said.... and
If the leadership had realized that my son needed ADHD medication and some counselling, and had treated him with love and respect and compassion, rather than labelling him possessed and treating him like dirt on their shoes.
If they had minded their own business and stayed out of my marriage.
If WC had treated us like brothers and sisters rather than slaves.
If leadership had recognized that our "earthly families" were just as important as they were to our lives.
If they had taught that Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind, not LCM or VPW (IMO).
And like most, we had NO idea about the sexual improprietries that went on. That in itself would have been an excellent reason to leave.
And I don't think I could have stayed anyway. To much pressure after I was diagnosed with diabetes.
WG
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doojable
If frogs could fly they wouldn't bump their butts when they hop...
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anotherDan
I would have stayed if Craig would have used his abilities, which were vast, to preserve the good and chuck the bad, make it a real biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry that baptized believers, loved all other Christians and non-Christians. And if we were encouraged to read folks like Bruce M. Metzger, F.F. Bruce, etc, reinstituted a reformed version of ROA and the WOW program, sending out people to work and heal and bless folks all over the world out of a genuine concern and love for our fellowmen. But, of course, that didn't happen. I would have stuck it out even if it took us a while to work out all the details.
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Abigail
That's a lot of IFs, really. Honestly, I don't know if I would have stayed IF re: VPW. He was gone before I ever got involved. He never directly harmed my life. Indirectly? That's another question. IF VPW had been all of those things, would there have been an LCM? Would LCM have become the man he did? Would so many have been spared the hurt they experienced?
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sprawled out
if things hadn't gone south, i suppose i might still be in. but for me personally, the thought of that makes me cringe. i'm so glad i'm out and back to myself. looking back, i hate who and what i became. even though there was something nice, comforting about thinking you had all the answers, i'm much happier being my own me. and i'm perfectly fine with not "knowing." in the end, that's the only thing i really needed to "change my mind" about.
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Ham
If you added "what if *dr* wierwille was REALLY a Dr.. instead of a charlatan"
maybe I'd still be there..
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wrdsandwrks
Is that the Calvinistic version of those programs? Oh sorry, wrong thread. (You know, reformed theology, bad joke, I know, but I've been reading about Calvinism for the other thread and the word REFORMED just jumped out at me.
Would I have stayed?
Hard to say, so many ifs. So many other things wrong...
My prayer and heart's desire is to be where God wants me.
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bulwinkl
in a simple word no. "The Teacher's" impropieties didn't affect me I wasn't close enuff . I started to get a hinky (don't ask cos I don't know) feeling about 1980 when the LC for Washington got remarried and that was so against what I believed the bible said.
Since I don't own a bible now I can't quote or even look up the verse but the gist of it is that a leader should be the husband of one wife. correct me if I'm wrong ( and I have no doubts that some1 here will do that). I just got a kinda WTF feeling from that and that changed my outlook even though I stayed for 6 more years.
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anotherDan
bulwinkl, interesting reply. thanks for sharing that.
I got a hinky (don't ask, 'cause I don't know either) feeling once at a meeting where LCM taught, and I was thinking, "I'm glad I didn't bring anybody to this meeting."
wrds, I wonder if St. Paul could see us today. Would he object if we microwaved his words and said, "My little children, in whom I travail in birth again until Christ be reformed in you."?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
In addition to suppossed "what if's", had Wierwille remained in the United Church of Christ while doing Biblical Research on the side as a hobby, and not plagerized other people's writings, and been openly ecumenical to other denominations, and not demand us to leave our denominational churches, then maybe. But this is all hypotheoretical.
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Out There
I have always wanted to do what God wants me to do. If He had wanted me to stay then I definately would have. But, He didn't so there is no sense in guessing
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bulwinkl
It all goes back to the statement " If the queen had balls she would be king", well the queen doesn't and she ain't.
Would you have been drawn to TWI if any of those things had been diff? Who the hell knows? This is a complete exercise in mental futility. "The teacher" teaches these things, You get involved , then everything changes? get real ppl , You have know idea what the ministry woulda been like if "The Teacher" had first of all said , "God told me that he would teach me the word like it had not been known since the first century,If i tell ppl about all the plagarism I do." how the hell does that make sense. we paid attention because something in it filled our need. plain and simple. If "the teacher" changes anything perhaps it doesn't fill our need anymore. So to talk as "would I have stayed if" is simple mental masturbation as far as I'm concerned.
edited to make it more comprehendable
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Nottawayfer
Those kind of "IFs" make it harder to leave if you were already involved. I think the hardest part for most to leave right now is the fact that they are leaving God's ministry. That mind-set in itself can be the hardest thing to break. I dealt with those thought for several months even after leaving. I was waiting for the adversary to come in and break me. The hardest part after leaving was ridding myself of waybrain.
I still steer clear of any group who promotes they have more truth than anyone else.
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smarter
You said a mouthful. It doesn't have to be about religion, either.
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Abigail
ROFLOL
I had a hinky (hell if I know either) the first time I ever saw LCM teach live. Too bad I didn't listen to that hinky.
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bulwinkl
For those wondering what a hinky is.
hinky(heen key)n. The look your dog gives you when you make a strange sound, The tilting of the head exhibited by the dog, Not enough to cause a bark but just what is going on here type of look. Bulwinkl's unabridged dictionary First edition 2007
Edited cos this dictionary is a work in progress in other words a "Living Dictionary"
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polar bear
Good points everyone. There are a lot of other "ifs". I just wanted to know what others thought. Maybe we can help some get out who are still thinking about what the "ifs" are for them.
I'm glad I'm out and I don't think any religion would suit my bill. I do love to help others and give. I'll just do it when I want to do it, not when I'm told to as I know the twits are.
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anotherDan
perfect!
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GrouchoMarxJr
That's an awful lot of "ifs"...
If grandma had a pair of testicles, they'd call her grandpa...
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doojable
Shut up Eyes!
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Eyesopen
At least I know what waters I'm prowling...thththhtthhttht
That's the best raspberry I can do past my teeth!
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RainbowsGirl
"Bear",
There were a lot of good and godly things and wonderfully loving, giving and talented people during my 20 odd years there. I came to learn the word and to work it and to have a relationship with God! I did that and I since will always be able to keep and maintain that relationship with God; even in spite of the cruelties I endured and I wish had never happened. They did hurt and hindered us all in various ways and to varying degrees. They have had a very profound and pronounced painful impact in our lives even now. The end has not yet been written, so to speak on our end..the free will part of our responsibility. What we do with our lives now to love and to honor God; to heal and to grow will help the scars fade and we can become stronger, continually growing. We can extend our hands to help others escape their trappings, sicknesses and prisons.
The underlying motives, imbalances, and prejudices of mankind are always there in some members of any group, congregation or "cult" and they show themselves when the motives of peoples hearts disintegrate and their personal inadequacies, imbalances, and unresolved issues emerge to the surface and can no longer remain hidden or disguised. The "You can run , but you can't hide" from yourself theory holds some truth here. Their true agenda changes when they are seduced by lusts of the world, it's many greeds, and the narcissism and selfishnesses of some. (I am studying Proverbs chapters 1 to 6 now; so it may color this a little)
At times I was too naive and ill informed to see TWI's underbelly of deceitful (mostly) leadership. A lot of things hurt me and I questioned them mainly on the believing issues concerning Josh's healing. I was asked to leave as I didn't fit into their regimented agenda and would not give my son up to go Corp and to always be able to attend other functions. God lovingly walked me away and stays with me, teaches me, loves and counsels me. He has proven His word to me and Josh. In Him alone do I truly trust. Even when we were secluded the ten years after God has truly blessed and amazed me with His love and comfort and strength.
As hard as many of those years were for me they made me stronger than ever before and I learned from all the challenging times with people many useful life tools and lessens; which perhaps God knew that I needed in my arsenal of godly resources to continually grow and to endure through the rest of my life. Knowing myself,...I am sure that under LCM's reign, had I had more than tapes and magazines only; I would have had more direct exposure to TWI's underbelly and thus would not have stayed. That underbelly exists still. It merely manifests itself differently. When people never grow up right, and carry their damages and imbalances with them they surface eventually. TWI is an empty shell now and those who want to heal God will gently take their hands and walk them out; Perhaps, to be with us here at GreaseSpot Café! Thank You again Paw for this place and all the love you give to keep it available! As someone recently reminded me "What doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger"! Thank You!
It seems that we need to teach our children well so they can grow into healthy adults, this would help limit the amount of abominable leaders and others from cropping up with their destructive evils. If in our lives now we take away God's Word and God and apply it toward helping each other heal so that we don't get caught in the same snares they did and all the other snares set for us in this life; then perhaps the affects and effects inflicted by TWI or any other sources will be diminished and some even be demolished!
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