Just interested in asking greasespotters if they have any old information on the Lake of Fire from TWI or any other church.
The church that I was involved with as a child taught that the Lake of Fire burned and tormented sinners forever, and anyone that was out of fellowship at the time of their death ended up there (scary thought for a child). To the best of my recollection, TWI taught that hell (gehenna) was something similar to the village garbage dump, and just burned until the refuse was disposed of and then went out. I believe that they also taught that it was something that Satan brought on himself. I heard one off-shoot taught that the Lake of Fire burned forever but was not for torment, as the fires of God were intended for purification rather than torture. I think there are Bible verses that can be interpreted to back up all three positions, but lean towards the one that TWI taught.
Here's something that may be of interest from Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatologyby J. Dwight Pentecost, where he quotes extensively from an article by Schwarze, pages 559-561:
In Matthew 25:41 the Lord said to the wicked, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." The word "prepared" literally is "having been prepared," suggesting that the lake of fire is already in existence and awaiting its occupants. It is the thesis of C.T. Schwarze[C.T. Schwarze, "The Bible and Science on the Everlasting Fire," Bibliotheca Sacra, 95:105-112, January, 1938], then of New York University, that such a place as a lake of fire is known in science today. He writes:"The word lake must connote a body of matter having liquid form. Therefore, if Scripture is truth, this eternal fire must be in liquid form…
…the very simple proof of the portions of Scripture we have been discussing lies in the existence of the singular phenomena of the skies known as midget or white dwarf stars!...a midget star is one which, because of some things which have happened to it…should be roughly 5,000 or more times as big as it really is!...This enormous density…has a great deal to do with our subject…Most people know the sun, our nearest star is rather hot…there is a general agreement that the temperature at or near the center of stars is between 25 million and 30 million degrees Fahrenheit!...at such temperatures, much can happen, like the bursting of atoms, which helps to explain the phenomenon of the white dwarf…
…It would cause the atoms to lose their electrons even though the attraction between nucleus and electrons is an octillion times the attraction of gravity. The separated parts could then be better packed in, particularly under great pressure…With the constant activity of X-rays, atom walls could not be reformed; therefore enormous densities, such as are found in the midgets, can be attained. Now, please note, at such high temperatures all matter would be in the form of gas…in a white dwarf the pressure is so great that gases become compressed to the consistency of a liquid although they may still respond to the characteristics of a gas…Although we cannot say that God will actually use these lakes of fire in fulfilling His Word, the answer to the skeptic is in the heavens where there are lakes of fire…"
End of excerpts
~~
And from the Encyclopedia Britannica under White Dwarf Star
any of a class of faint stars representing the endpoint of the evolution of intermediate- and low-mass stars. White dwarf stars, so called because of the white colour of the first few that were discovered, are characterized by a low luminosity, a mass on the order of that of the Sun, and a radius comparable to that of the Earth. Because of their large mass and small dimensions, such stars are dense and compact objects with average densities approaching 1,000,000 times that of water…
…It would cause the atoms to lose their electrons even though the attraction between nucleus and electrons is an octillion times the attraction of gravity. The separated parts could then be better packed in, particularly under great pressure…With the constant activity of X-rays, atom walls could not be reformed; therefore enormous densities, such as are found in the midgets, can be attained. Now, please note, at such high temperatures all matter would be in the form of gas…in a white dwarf the pressure is so great that gases become compressed to the consistency of a liquid although they may still respond to the characteristics of a gas…Although we cannot say that God will actually use these lakes of fire in fulfilling His Word, the answer to the skeptic is in the heavens where there are lakes of fire…"
End of excerpts
~~
And from the Encyclopedia Britannica under White Dwarf Star
any of a class of faint stars representing the endpoint of the evolution of intermediate- and low-mass stars. White dwarf stars, so called because of the white colour of the first few that were discovered, are characterized by a low luminosity, a mass on the order of that of the Sun, and a radius comparable to that of the Earth. Because of their large mass and small dimensions, such stars are dense and compact objects with average densities approaching 1,000,000 times that of water…
I 'de always imagined the Lake of Fire existing somewhere on earth, or as a subterranean lake of molten lava.
The star lake theory seems an interesting, modern "sci-fi" take.
Do we actually know that evil spirits possess an especial fire-retardent nature , rendering them invincible
to the hottest elements found on our planet, so as to require hurling them into the belly of a distant star?
what will you and how will you feel if you end up in the kingdom with Jesus and the rest of us?
While I don't pretend to speak for George (though, he and I will probably be selling air conditioners to the people who THOUGHT they were going to heaven), I'd like to take a crack at this for myself.
Actually, I think the funnier situation is how YOU'RE going to feel if I'm welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. Here, you've spent your whole life trying so hard to be 'good'. A rank agnostic does what he thinks is ok, just waltzes through the Pearly Gates (or maybe, we'll have to come in the back way). Somehow, I suspect the reaction is going to be similar to the brothers in the Prodigal son story.
The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is, the agnostics/atheists will have served their 'Godly' purpose by keeping youse religious people on your toes and honest.
Just interested in asking greasespotters if they have any old information on the Lake of Fire from TWI or any other church.
I recently became aware of a teaching by Wayne Clapp on the subject that can be reached through the CFF webpage. I have not read the whole thing myself as it seems to be along the lines of a small booklet, nor do I know if you have any interest in reading a teaching by him. I would post a direct link to it, but unfortunately I haven't attained that degree of computer literacy yet. If you want you can read it and let me know your reactions.
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TheInvisibleDan
It's a hot real estate opportunity.
I hear there's some prime beach property there.
And it stays warm all year long.
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George Aar
Just in case though, I'm working out my contingency plan - Asbestos water ski rentals!
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TheInvisibleDan
That's hot! Perhaps you can set up your ski-rental business near the Red Sands Resort, located on Fire island.
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Jeaniam
The church that I was involved with as a child taught that the Lake of Fire burned and tormented sinners forever, and anyone that was out of fellowship at the time of their death ended up there (scary thought for a child). To the best of my recollection, TWI taught that hell (gehenna) was something similar to the village garbage dump, and just burned until the refuse was disposed of and then went out. I believe that they also taught that it was something that Satan brought on himself. I heard one off-shoot taught that the Lake of Fire burned forever but was not for torment, as the fires of God were intended for purification rather than torture. I think there are Bible verses that can be interpreted to back up all three positions, but lean towards the one that TWI taught.
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pond
George i have always wanted to ask you.
what will you and how will you feel if you end up in the kingdom with Jesus and the rest of us?
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Eagle
Thanks Jeaniam and pond for more serious replies. I wasn't joking about this piece of doctrine from the Bible. I wonder how others think of it?
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cman
What others?
Church doctrines or what people really think?
Cause to to know it you got swim it.
Otherwise there is no real knowledge of what it is.
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T-Bone
Here's something that may be of interest from Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology by J. Dwight Pentecost, where he quotes extensively from an article by Schwarze, pages 559-561:
In Matthew 25:41 the Lord said to the wicked, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." The word "prepared" literally is "having been prepared," suggesting that the lake of fire is already in existence and awaiting its occupants. It is the thesis of C.T. Schwarze [C.T. Schwarze, "The Bible and Science on the Everlasting Fire," Bibliotheca Sacra, 95:105-112, January, 1938], then of New York University, that such a place as a lake of fire is known in science today. He writes:"The word lake must connote a body of matter having liquid form. Therefore, if Scripture is truth, this eternal fire must be in liquid form…
…the very simple proof of the portions of Scripture we have been discussing lies in the existence of the singular phenomena of the skies known as midget or white dwarf stars!...a midget star is one which, because of some things which have happened to it…should be roughly 5,000 or more times as big as it really is!...This enormous density…has a great deal to do with our subject…Most people know the sun, our nearest star is rather hot…there is a general agreement that the temperature at or near the center of stars is between 25 million and 30 million degrees Fahrenheit!...at such temperatures, much can happen, like the bursting of atoms, which helps to explain the phenomenon of the white dwarf…
…It would cause the atoms to lose their electrons even though the attraction between nucleus and electrons is an octillion times the attraction of gravity. The separated parts could then be better packed in, particularly under great pressure…With the constant activity of X-rays, atom walls could not be reformed; therefore enormous densities, such as are found in the midgets, can be attained. Now, please note, at such high temperatures all matter would be in the form of gas…in a white dwarf the pressure is so great that gases become compressed to the consistency of a liquid although they may still respond to the characteristics of a gas…Although we cannot say that God will actually use these lakes of fire in fulfilling His Word, the answer to the skeptic is in the heavens where there are lakes of fire…"
End of excerpts
~~
And from the Encyclopedia Britannica under White Dwarf Star
any of a class of faint stars representing the endpoint of the evolution of intermediate- and low-mass stars. White dwarf stars, so called because of the white colour of the first few that were discovered, are characterized by a low luminosity, a mass on the order of that of the Sun, and a radius comparable to that of the Earth. Because of their large mass and small dimensions, such stars are dense and compact objects with average densities approaching 1,000,000 times that of water…
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Abigail
You ask some very deep questions. Unfortunately, those just aren't areas I've every really studied. Sorry I can't offer anything.
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TheInvisibleDan
I 'de always imagined the Lake of Fire existing somewhere on earth, or as a subterranean lake of molten lava.
The star lake theory seems an interesting, modern "sci-fi" take.
Do we actually know that evil spirits possess an especial fire-retardent nature , rendering them invincible
to the hottest elements found on our planet, so as to require hurling them into the belly of a distant star?
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Bumpy
The following is an actual question given on a University of
Washington engineering mid-term. The answer was so "profound" that the
Professor shared it with colleagues, and the sharing obviously hasn't
ceased...
Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or Endothermic
(absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote Proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law,
(gas cools off when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or
some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:
"First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So
we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate
they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul
gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As
for how many souls are entering Hell, let us look at the different
religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state
that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell.
Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do
not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go
to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the
number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because
Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in
Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are
added. This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls
enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase
until all Hell breaks loose.
2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase
of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until
Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa Banyan during my
Freshman year, "...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep
with you.", and take into account the fact that I still have not
succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then, #2 cannot be
true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze."
This student received the only A, and later concluded that Teresa was really only "shark bait"
Enjoy your weekend!
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cman
Every once in a while. A Star will go super nova and can no longer be seen.
Yet it's there, change happens, in heaven and on earth.
Something about a will being done in earth as it is in heaven.
Not ours, for we are not our own, but a work in progress.
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Sushi
While I don't pretend to speak for George (though, he and I will probably be selling air conditioners to the people who THOUGHT they were going to heaven), I'd like to take a crack at this for myself.
Actually, I think the funnier situation is how YOU'RE going to feel if I'm welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. Here, you've spent your whole life trying so hard to be 'good'. A rank agnostic does what he thinks is ok, just waltzes through the Pearly Gates (or maybe, we'll have to come in the back way). Somehow, I suspect the reaction is going to be similar to the brothers in the Prodigal son story.
The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is, the agnostics/atheists will have served their 'Godly' purpose by keeping youse religious people on your toes and honest.
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pond
I think you assume alot about how i think sushi.
i do not and can not obey my way into the kingdom.
nor can anyone eles.
if i ever do any good today it is all the very grace of God to me.
how would i feel?
i happen to believe very strongly that the kingdom will be filled with many different types of people and what they consider important in life .
the common factor is what Jesus says is required and He is the only judge about the details.
and you do a good work if you can keep anyone on their toes who hurts another. l
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Jeaniam
I recently became aware of a teaching by Wayne Clapp on the subject that can be reached through the CFF webpage. I have not read the whole thing myself as it seems to be along the lines of a small booklet, nor do I know if you have any interest in reading a teaching by him. I would post a direct link to it, but unfortunately I haven't attained that degree of computer literacy yet. If you want you can read it and let me know your reactions.
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