I DO remember docvic saying that cancer (life unto itself), was the prescence of spirit.
Now -- I can't document that without going through reams of tape, or pages of print,
(and I don't have either the time or willingness to do so).
Maybe you remember differently, and if that's the case, it's cool.
My impression (in my impression only), was that docvic was saying that you got this by possession.
He implied (strongly, I might add), that if you had it, you were possessed. I could be wrong,
but I don't think so. (Advanced Class comes to mind).
So -- From what I recall -- he taught it was due to direct possession,
and not merely a *cause and effect* thing like you are making it out to be.
So (in other words) -- He had it, and had it to the point that he died from it.
I agree that VP taught that it was life and "all life is spirit".
Disagree that he taught that those who have cancer are possessed.
When you think about it, it makes no sense. Possession is in the category of the mind, whereas cancer runs around the body. Unless one literally believes that lung cancer means lung possession, prostate cancer equals prostate possession, breast cancer equals breast possession, throat cancer equals throat possession, etc. etc.
As I recall the PFAL teaching it was "God is The Word", "Jesus is the Word in THE FLESH", "the bible is the Word in Writing"
to add another one of the vicster's thoughts, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" makes it rather interesting..
I think this teaching is not too far from her vicmeister's original trinitarian roots. You have God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Scriptures backed and authored by the Holy Spook (sorry, couldn't resist.. )
For the scripture to take the PLACE of the "absent" yet accounted for Chirst, does is not have to perform the FUNCTION of the absent Christ, ON ALL POINTS?
Remove one point.. and the written word cannot be honestly considered a true replacement..
I agree that VP taught that it was life and "all life is spirit".
Disagree that he taught that those who have cancer are possessed.
When you think about it, it makes no sense. Possession is in the category of the mind, whereas cancer runs around the body. Unless one literally believes that lung cancer means lung possession, prostate cancer equals prostate possession, breast cancer equals breast possession, throat cancer equals throat possession, etc. etc.
For the scripture to take the PLACE of the "absent" yet accounted for Chirst, does is not have to perform the FUNCTION of the absent Christ, ON ALL POINTS?
I don't think so. But Wierwille's trinity so to speak would be "one in unity, one in purpose". Not one in the selfsame. :)
(2.) A born-again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or possess mind and/or body, but not the spirit.
Thanks Waysider, I stand corrected.
I don't understand how a devil spirit can possess a body part, but hey, it's Monday! :)
So then according to his Advanced Class teaching, his body may have been possessed.
Golly.
That's only if it was strictly an "or" scenario.
What if it was also an "and" scenario?
(Possessed in body and mind.)
Quite a dilemma when you think about it.
Either we followed the teachings of a *possessed* man or he was wrong about possession, thereby negating his credibility on that issue as well as others.
I remember I was in a grad's only Advanced class in Oklahoma City with Mike and Lisa Trac*y, the LC's, a day or two or three before VP passed. They were contacted in the middle of one of the sessions and told that VP was gravely ill. We had no prior idea that he was even sick, and I don't know if the LC's had any prior knowledge that he was on his deathbed, but we were asked to pray for his comfort and rest only, and not for his healing specifically, it was made clear that we were not asking for him to be healed.
As far as people being able to "believe" for, or to receive healing, it is all subjective. I have had numerous instantaneous healings from day one on, but still wear glasses and go to the dentist quite often for root canals and the like.
Certain things are easier than others, I don't know why, it just is. There are different factors involved with each healing or lack thereof.
I do KNOW that what we were taught about healing from TWI was not the whole story, nor was it all accurate.
I do KNOW that what we were taught about healing from TWI was not the whole story, nor was it all accurate.
Isn't that the truth...
Not difficult at all if his words are preserved thus . . .
. . . VP was correct. We still have the words and acts of Jesus that makes it possible to follow Jesus. Unless Jesus has made a personal (physical) appearance to you I don't see how it would be possible for you to follow him without the Written Word.
...Hmmm, and how was it the apostle Paul got the info to write those epistles? A lot of people spend their time reading the owner's manuel and never driving the car...
I was on staff at HQ when VP died. I don't remember being asked to pray for him--though I could be wrong.
I'm sure I never heard anything about cancer. I never new the truth until I found the death certificate on the web years later.
I remember during my interim year we were at H.Q. when VP was having so much trouble with his eye before he had it removed. My (now ex) wife was good friends with a security person, and she told me that security people were sent to different pharmacies to get the MOG's codeine prescriptions filled. Apparently he was taking so much codeine that they couldn't keep going to the same store to get it.
I was on staff at HQ when VP died. I don't remember being asked to pray for him--though I could be wrong.
I'm sure I never heard anything about cancer. I never new the truth until I found the death certificate on the web years later.
That's interesting.
Occasionally, some poster tries to assert everything was in the open on-grounds,
that everyone on staff knew.
Obviously, that is NOT true.
I remember during my interim year we were at H.Q. when VP was having so much trouble with his eye before he had it removed. My (now ex) wife was good friends with a security person, and she told me that security people were sent to different pharmacies to get the MOG's codeine prescriptions filled. Apparently he was taking so much codeine that they couldn't keep going to the same store to get it.
That's very interesting.
Patients with persistent pain problems can get a number of medications legally by prescription to handle
persistent problems with pain. That was true in 1984-1985 also. They weren't exactly bleeding people with
leeches in Ohio medical offices at that time.
However, vpw has to get HUGE Rx's of CODEINE. Not any medication that's used LEGALLY for EXTENDED PERIODS
for persistent pain- he's using a NARCOTIC used for LIMITED PERIODS.
Here's something from Wikipedia's page on codeine:
"Tolerance to many of the effects of codeine develops with prolonged use, including therapeutic effects."
"is often used as a recreational drug. This is mainly due to its easy availability over the counter or on prescription in combination products (which, in certain countries, are scheduled lower than codeine as a single-agent). People use it in order to obtain the euphoric effects associated with use of opioids."
Here's something from Wikipedia's page on narcotics/opioids:
"Moreover, it isn't always the case that those with a physical dependency to opiates find it too difficult to get over their "addiction," because so-called medical addicts (those that become physically dependent on opiates given for pain relief after treatment) only have to "give-up" the physical symptoms - they don't also have the all important psychological and life-style attachment to the drug which goes to make up the all-encompassing "addiction.""
"There are two major patterns of narcotic dependence seen in the United States. One involves individuals whose drug use was initiated within the context of medical treatment who escalate their dose through "doctor shopping" or branch out to illicit drugs."
The physician whose name you mention was NOT on staff at International. He was a surgeon in private practice in another city in Ohio, not all that close to New Knoxville. I worked for the man; I knew him to be a wonderful, ethical, moral physican who was ABSOLUTELY NOT on staff to crank out any prescriptions VPW wanted in any amount.
FYI, pharmacies and other regulatory agencies keep track of this sort of thing. If in fact, people were running to New Bremen, Sidney, Van Wert, wherever to get multiple prescriptions for painkillers filled all the time, it would have caught up them sooner rather than later. Physicians who perform this sort of activity can be arrested, prosecuted and even lose their licenses.
I think your comment comes very close to slander. You are suggesting that a very honorable man pimped drugs to VPW and I don't need to ask him to know that nothing could be further from the truth.
The physician whose name you mention was NOT on staff at International. He was a surgeon in private practice in another city in Ohio, not all that close to New Knoxville. I worked for the man; I knew him to be a wonderful, ethical, moral physican who was ABSOLUTELY NOT on staff to crank out any prescriptions VPW wanted in any amount.
If you PERSONALLY know he wasn't on staff at or even NEAR hq, I'll accept that.
I don't PERSONALLY know one way or the other.
He certainly showed up as if he was, a number of times,
and he apparently travelled in to sign his death certificate if he wasn't on-site.
Unusual, but that was not a usual situation, so hardly unlikely.
If dogotel is correct, then SOMEONE was cranking out any Rx's vpw wanted.
If not BW, I wonder who, since I always heard HIS name as a medical doctor, and no other-
and one would expect THAT guy to be the one to sign the death certificate.
So, either BW cranked out Rxs,
or another medical Dr cranked out Rxs,
or someone not a Dr FORGED Rxs,
or the security was breaking into pharmacies to get codeine without Rxs,
or security was paying off pharmacists to get codeine without Rxs,
or dogotel's account is incorrect.
Seems you said the first one is untrue- how do you interpret the other possibilities?
FYI, pharmacies and other regulatory agencies keep track of this sort of thing. If in fact, people were running to New Bremen, Sidney, Van Wert, wherever to get multiple prescriptions for painkillers filled all the time, it would have caught up them sooner rather than later. Physicians who perform this sort of activity can be arrested, prosecuted and even lose their licenses.
Then again, we hear about people getting caught after several years of this sort of thing,
and some people who "doctor-shop" don't get caught.
If dogotel's account is true, someone or other was committing an unethical act (cranking out Rxs),
or an illegal act (forgery, theft, trafficking in illegal goods).
Either way, that was actionable, and risky for the participants.
I don't see it as that difficult to find SOME twi'ers who would be willing to break the law for vpw,
but I don't know who SPECIFICALLY would do it here.
(Unless dogotel's account is false, in which case there were no laws broken and no improper actions of this type.)
I don't see it as unfeasible. Outside of twi, it's hard to imagine, but there were always those people in twi
who would have died for vpw or killed for vpw. The only questions are what was done, who did it,
and did it actually happen.
I think your comment comes very close to slander. You are suggesting that a very honorable man pimped drugs to VPW and I don't need to ask him to know that nothing could be further from the truth.
WG
If your statements are correct, my comments are in error, period.
How do you see dogotel's account having come to pass?
I ran down all the possibilities I see, which do you think is the more likely?
I'm not really into rumor control regarding who said what to whom when. Dr. Wierwille died in 1985, more than 20 years ago. I really don't care what or how much pain medication he took, or frankly how he got it. I had a friend in another state a long time ago who had chronic back pain and took a pain medication that was a controlled substance, carefully doled out to him in 30-day supply. He told me he could walk down any street in the town where he lived and buy twice as much, but he didn't because it wasn't right. So who's to say there were prescriptions written at all?
My only objection is your insistence that a man I know personally be slandered. I worked as a medical secretary/transcriptionist for over 30 years and I know what such a rumor can do to a medical professional's reputation. I don't know the person who originally made the comment that security was running all over northwestern Ohio filling prescriptions. I do know it wouldn't be all that hard. I worked most recently in a department where physicians were supposed to keep their prescription pads locked in their desks, but a couple simply left them out in plain view. It would have been cake to slip into the office to deliver a few charts and walk out with a prescription blank in your pocket, make copies at your convenience and voila'!
The physician whose integrity you question was a personal physician of VPW for years. And his first initial is not B, either. That's one of his brothers, who actually was on staff at one time, I think.
The physician whose integrity you question was a personal physician of VPW for years. And his first initial is not B, either. That's one of his brothers, who actually was on staff at one time, I think.
Three brothers......two of them worked on staff and had the first initial B. And yes, the other brother....the physician....lived a couple hours or so away from hq.
You know, Word Wolf, if you called ME a bytch, or a smartass, or ugly or stupid, it wouldn't matter. I don't really care what others think of me. What bothers me is you basically accused someone you don't actually know of something horrible. This is someone I do know, and well enough to say confidently he wouldn't have done what you are accusing him of. It's based on what is at best hearsay evidence that doesn't even mention him.
You know, Word Wolf, if you called ME a bytch, or a smartass, or ugly or stupid, it wouldn't matter. I don't really care what others think of me. What bothers me is you basically accused someone you don't actually know of something horrible. This is someone I do know, and well enough to say confidently he wouldn't have done what you are accusing him of. It's based on what is at best hearsay evidence that doesn't even mention him.
That's just so unlike you.
WG
Ok, even if you're not helping, I'll see what I can do on my own here.
I personally am unaware of any legal wrongdoings by any medical dr in twi or formerly in twi,
and among them, I am specifically stating that I am unaware of any legal wrongdoings
by W1n*g*rn*r.
I am generally unaware of any legal wrongdoings by W1n*g*rn*r as well.
Period.
=========
That having been stated,
there's something that's been raised,
and I'd like the input of those who were on grounds and personally know more to try to complete
the picture.
I THINK I asked that before, but in case I didn't, I'm asking now.
Adding to the "Did they really believe it?" thread.
Here's some more debuhl spirt stuff from the AC class.
(From my notes relating to Pgs. 20 and 21 for those who really MUST know.)
Some of the spirits that affect the mind are, spirit of obsession(seen in people who can't control their temper),sordid spirit(uses filthy, foul language), spirit of oppression( has feelings of being persecuted), sensual spirit(has lust for money, sex and anything beyond needs)
Spirit that may affect both body AND mind:
(Drumroll, please)---------------spirit of leviathan(alcoholism and addiction.)
Maybe this thread should be called "Did we really believe it?". <_<
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oldiesman
I agree that VP taught that it was life and "all life is spirit".
Disagree that he taught that those who have cancer are possessed.
When you think about it, it makes no sense. Possession is in the category of the mind, whereas cancer runs around the body. Unless one literally believes that lung cancer means lung possession, prostate cancer equals prostate possession, breast cancer equals breast possession, throat cancer equals throat possession, etc. etc.
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Ham
to add another one of the vicster's thoughts, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" makes it rather interesting..
I think this teaching is not too far from her vicmeister's original trinitarian roots. You have God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Scriptures backed and authored by the Holy Spook (sorry, couldn't resist..
)
For the scripture to take the PLACE of the "absent" yet accounted for Chirst, does is not have to perform the FUNCTION of the absent Christ, ON ALL POINTS?
Remove one point.. and the written word cannot be honestly considered a true replacement..
in my opinion anyway.
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waysider
From the Advanced Class syllabus by VPW-----1971
Page 19
e. All life is spirit, but not all spirit is eternal life spirit.
(1.) Any spirit to be manifested, shown forth, must be in a body.
(2.) A born-again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or possess mind and/or body, but not the spirit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote name='oldiesman' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:36 PM' post='362407']
I agree that VP taught that it was life and "all life is spirit".
Disagree that he taught that those who have cancer are possessed.
When you think about it, it makes no sense. Possession is in the category of the mind, whereas cancer runs around the body. Unless one literally believes that lung cancer means lung possession, prostate cancer equals prostate possession, breast cancer equals breast possession, throat cancer equals throat possession, etc. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree------------"It makes no sense."
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oldiesman
I don't think so. But Wierwille's trinity so to speak would be "one in unity, one in purpose". Not one in the selfsame. :)
Thanks Waysider, I stand corrected.
I don't understand how a devil spirit can possess a body part, but hey, it's Monday! :)
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oldiesman
There may be an exception: vocal cords. If memory serves, I think there was a teaching by VP about devil possession of vocal cords.
But here's a question: is it possession of the actual vocal cords or the mind?
Does one actually speak with vocal cords or with the mind?
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waysider
According to VPW, it's an "and/or" kind of deal.
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oldiesman
Well I can see that with vocal cords, but not with cancer...
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waysider
Cancer would fall into the "or" category.
" The spirits may affect or possess mind-------------or-----------body."(VPW)
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oldiesman
So then according to his Advanced Class teaching, his body may have been possessed.
Golly.
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waysider
That's only if it was strictly an "or" scenario.
What if it was also an "and" scenario?
(Possessed in body and mind.)
Quite a dilemma when you think about it.
Either we followed the teachings of a *possessed* man or he was wrong about possession, thereby negating his credibility on that issue as well as others.
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now I see
I remember I was in a grad's only Advanced class in Oklahoma City with Mike and Lisa Trac*y, the LC's, a day or two or three before VP passed. They were contacted in the middle of one of the sessions and told that VP was gravely ill. We had no prior idea that he was even sick, and I don't know if the LC's had any prior knowledge that he was on his deathbed, but we were asked to pray for his comfort and rest only, and not for his healing specifically, it was made clear that we were not asking for him to be healed.
As far as people being able to "believe" for, or to receive healing, it is all subjective. I have had numerous instantaneous healings from day one on, but still wear glasses and go to the dentist quite often for root canals and the like.
Certain things are easier than others, I don't know why, it just is. There are different factors involved with each healing or lack thereof.
I do KNOW that what we were taught about healing from TWI was not the whole story, nor was it all accurate.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Isn't that the truth...
...Hmmm, and how was it the apostle Paul got the info to write those epistles? A lot of people spend their time reading the owner's manuel and never driving the car...
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dogotel
I was on staff at HQ when VP died. I don't remember being asked to pray for him--though I could be wrong.
I'm sure I never heard anything about cancer. I never new the truth until I found the death certificate on the web years later.
I remember during my interim year we were at H.Q. when VP was having so much trouble with his eye before he had it removed. My (now ex) wife was good friends with a security person, and she told me that security people were sent to different pharmacies to get the MOG's codeine prescriptions filled. Apparently he was taking so much codeine that they couldn't keep going to the same store to get it.
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WordWolf
That's interesting.
Occasionally, some poster tries to assert everything was in the open on-grounds,
that everyone on staff knew.
Obviously, that is NOT true.
That's very interesting.
Patients with persistent pain problems can get a number of medications legally by prescription to handle
persistent problems with pain. That was true in 1984-1985 also. They weren't exactly bleeding people with
leeches in Ohio medical offices at that time.
However, vpw has to get HUGE Rx's of CODEINE. Not any medication that's used LEGALLY for EXTENDED PERIODS
for persistent pain- he's using a NARCOTIC used for LIMITED PERIODS.
Here's something from Wikipedia's page on codeine:
"Tolerance to many of the effects of codeine develops with prolonged use, including therapeutic effects."
"is often used as a recreational drug. This is mainly due to its easy availability over the counter or on prescription in combination products (which, in certain countries, are scheduled lower than codeine as a single-agent). People use it in order to obtain the euphoric effects associated with use of opioids."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine
Here's something from Wikipedia's page on narcotics/opioids:
"Moreover, it isn't always the case that those with a physical dependency to opiates find it too difficult to get over their "addiction," because so-called medical addicts (those that become physically dependent on opiates given for pain relief after treatment) only have to "give-up" the physical symptoms - they don't also have the all important psychological and life-style attachment to the drug which goes to make up the all-encompassing "addiction.""
"There are two major patterns of narcotic dependence seen in the United States. One involves individuals whose drug use was initiated within the context of medical treatment who escalate their dose through "doctor shopping" or branch out to illicit drugs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotics
vpw didn't have to "doctor-shop" to get prescriptions- "scrips"- from different doctors to keep getting Rxs from them.
He had one on-grounds to crank out any Rx he wanted: W1n*garn*r, if memory serves, was on staff AND the Dr
who signed his death certificate later.
He DID, however, need to "pharmacy shop", since he couldn't just keep going to one local pharmacy to place
large, continuous orders for a controlled substance without rousing suspicion by law-abiding pharmacists.
Thus, the need to sneak all the Rxs.
Naturally, this is considered an abuse of medication, and is not legal-which is why it wasn't a matter of
"who cares what they think?", but "We don't want them notifying the authorities."
Since vpw had an addictive personality-tobacco, alcohol, adulation, sex, power-
it's really not a shock to hear he might have showed signs of addiction to a narcotic which he might have
gotten initially as a poor choice of painkiller, and then gotten addicted to.
Naturally,
I'd be more comfortable if a poster who was once on staff came forward to corroborate this, to say
"yes, I saw this as well".
And, lest I forget,
Hello, dogotel.
I hope you enjoy your stay.
There's a sticky with advice here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
You may find it useful.
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Watered Garden
Word Wolf,
The physician whose name you mention was NOT on staff at International. He was a surgeon in private practice in another city in Ohio, not all that close to New Knoxville. I worked for the man; I knew him to be a wonderful, ethical, moral physican who was ABSOLUTELY NOT on staff to crank out any prescriptions VPW wanted in any amount.
FYI, pharmacies and other regulatory agencies keep track of this sort of thing. If in fact, people were running to New Bremen, Sidney, Van Wert, wherever to get multiple prescriptions for painkillers filled all the time, it would have caught up them sooner rather than later. Physicians who perform this sort of activity can be arrested, prosecuted and even lose their licenses.
I think your comment comes very close to slander. You are suggesting that a very honorable man pimped drugs to VPW and I don't need to ask him to know that nothing could be further from the truth.
WG
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WordWolf
If you PERSONALLY know he wasn't on staff at or even NEAR hq, I'll accept that.
I don't PERSONALLY know one way or the other.
He certainly showed up as if he was, a number of times,
and he apparently travelled in to sign his death certificate if he wasn't on-site.
Unusual, but that was not a usual situation, so hardly unlikely.
If dogotel is correct, then SOMEONE was cranking out any Rx's vpw wanted.
If not BW, I wonder who, since I always heard HIS name as a medical doctor, and no other-
and one would expect THAT guy to be the one to sign the death certificate.
So, either BW cranked out Rxs,
or another medical Dr cranked out Rxs,
or someone not a Dr FORGED Rxs,
or the security was breaking into pharmacies to get codeine without Rxs,
or security was paying off pharmacists to get codeine without Rxs,
or dogotel's account is incorrect.
Seems you said the first one is untrue- how do you interpret the other possibilities?
Then again, we hear about people getting caught after several years of this sort of thing,and some people who "doctor-shop" don't get caught.
If dogotel's account is true, someone or other was committing an unethical act (cranking out Rxs),
or an illegal act (forgery, theft, trafficking in illegal goods).
Either way, that was actionable, and risky for the participants.
I don't see it as that difficult to find SOME twi'ers who would be willing to break the law for vpw,
but I don't know who SPECIFICALLY would do it here.
(Unless dogotel's account is false, in which case there were no laws broken and no improper actions of this type.)
I don't see it as unfeasible. Outside of twi, it's hard to imagine, but there were always those people in twi
who would have died for vpw or killed for vpw. The only questions are what was done, who did it,
and did it actually happen.
If your statements are correct, my comments are in error, period.
How do you see dogotel's account having come to pass?
I ran down all the possibilities I see, which do you think is the more likely?
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Watered Garden
Word Wolf,
I'm not really into rumor control regarding who said what to whom when. Dr. Wierwille died in 1985, more than 20 years ago. I really don't care what or how much pain medication he took, or frankly how he got it. I had a friend in another state a long time ago who had chronic back pain and took a pain medication that was a controlled substance, carefully doled out to him in 30-day supply. He told me he could walk down any street in the town where he lived and buy twice as much, but he didn't because it wasn't right. So who's to say there were prescriptions written at all?
My only objection is your insistence that a man I know personally be slandered. I worked as a medical secretary/transcriptionist for over 30 years and I know what such a rumor can do to a medical professional's reputation. I don't know the person who originally made the comment that security was running all over northwestern Ohio filling prescriptions. I do know it wouldn't be all that hard. I worked most recently in a department where physicians were supposed to keep their prescription pads locked in their desks, but a couple simply left them out in plain view. It would have been cake to slip into the office to deliver a few charts and walk out with a prescription blank in your pocket, make copies at your convenience and voila'!
The physician whose integrity you question was a personal physician of VPW for years. And his first initial is not B, either. That's one of his brothers, who actually was on staff at one time, I think.
WG
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skyrider
Three brothers......two of them worked on staff and had the first initial B. And yes, the other brother....the physician....lived a couple hours or so away from hq.
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WordWolf
I keep making that initials mistake.
====
Ok, let's save some time.
WG,
tell me what you're looking for me to say,
and we can see if it's something I can agree with and say in good conscience.
I think you're looking for something specific here, and will need me to state it outright
before we move on to anything else.
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Watered Garden
You know, Word Wolf, if you called ME a bytch, or a smartass, or ugly or stupid, it wouldn't matter. I don't really care what others think of me. What bothers me is you basically accused someone you don't actually know of something horrible. This is someone I do know, and well enough to say confidently he wouldn't have done what you are accusing him of. It's based on what is at best hearsay evidence that doesn't even mention him.
That's just so unlike you.
WG
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WordWolf
So, WG, can we resolve this directly, or would you prefer to insult me some more?
I'd rather resolve this, and said so.
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WordWolf
Ok, even if you're not helping, I'll see what I can do on my own here.
I personally am unaware of any legal wrongdoings by any medical dr in twi or formerly in twi,
and among them, I am specifically stating that I am unaware of any legal wrongdoings
by W1n*g*rn*r.
I am generally unaware of any legal wrongdoings by W1n*g*rn*r as well.
Period.
=========
That having been stated,
there's something that's been raised,
and I'd like the input of those who were on grounds and personally know more to try to complete
the picture.
I THINK I asked that before, but in case I didn't, I'm asking now.
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waysider
Adding to the "Did they really believe it?" thread.
Here's some more debuhl spirt stuff from the AC class.
(From my notes relating to Pgs. 20 and 21 for those who really MUST know.)
Some of the spirits that affect the mind are, spirit of obsession(seen in people who can't control their temper),sordid spirit(uses filthy, foul language), spirit of oppression( has feelings of being persecuted), sensual spirit(has lust for money, sex and anything beyond needs)
Spirit that may affect both body AND mind:
(Drumroll, please)---------------spirit of leviathan(alcoholism and addiction.)
Maybe this thread should be called "Did we really believe it?". <_<
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WhiteDove
Exactly, last I looked may did not mean absolutely will! it is used to express possibility only
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