quote: Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
I was told that he died of cancer by a twig cordo in Grand Rapids, MI. This guy had been an accountant at HQ for 9 years, including at the time of VPs death. Can't remember exactly when he told us. It wasn't part of a fellowship; it was informal. The guy was talking and a few of us were in the room. He said that when VP had his eye removed in late 1983 that Fritz Weingarner told VP about the tumor and gave him max 5 years to live.
quote: John -- Ok -- I can see how you might think that. And I ain't a'gonna argue.
BUT ---- the *thrust* of this thread is STILL what Rascal asked in the first place.
Why didn't twi get together prayer for docvic, when he needed it *the most*???
Just because they didn't have the whole ministry pray doesn't mean they didn't have select individuals pray. As I said, they probably handled it the way VP wanted them to handle it. It is speculation to infer that they only cared for themselves; we really don't know.
John --I think you missed my point, from my earlier post.
(No complaints on my end).
I guess that when I mentioned that at (one point in time),
they (twi) could mobilize the entire ORG in prayer for a ficticious
*National Emergency*, they could've done the same for docvic ---
Who said I did?? You perhaps, but how would you know that??
Jesus and docvic are NOT compatible.
The sayings of one, are the antithesis of the other.
But -- I'm guessing you'll disagree with that, eh?? ;)
You bet ya! The only way we would really know for sure is to compare the doctrine of VP with that of Jesus' concerning healing. I'll give you one verse we could consider: Mark 9:23.
You bet ya! The only way we would really know for sure is to compare the doctrine of VP with that of Jesus' concerning healing. I'll give you one verse we could consider: Mark 9:23.
Mark 9:23 does NOT say it works for saint and sinner alike.
William Branham, transcribed from a teaching on the topic of Demonology in 1953:
"The doctor calls it a cancer. God calls it a devil. Look at today. They just get it... Where did the word cancer come from? It comes from the--from a Latin word which is used in medical terms, meaning "a crab." A crab that you'd see along the seashore that's got all them legs, that's the way that--that it does; it reaches out, spreads out. The word "cancer" is "crab." And it gets in and just keeps taking ahold and sucking blood as it goes, like the octopus or something. Why, a tumor, cataract, and other diseases, every one of them comes from a germ. And that germ has to be a body. And before it can be a body, it has to be a life. Before it can create or--or germitize and make more cells, it has to be a life. Is that correct? Now, where did that cancer come from? Who, where'd that come from? It wasn't on you here sometime ago, but now maybe it's on you. Where did it come from? It's another life different from your life, living in you. And it's a tormenting, sapping your life. That's the reason Jesus called it a devil."
I can imagine Wierwille listening to this guy on the radio during the 50s/early 60s. He appears to have been a huge influence upon that generation.
If I was a movie producer or documentary filmmaker, William Branham would be a fantastic subject.
Well, seeing as this is not the doctrinal forum I am somewhat limited in how I may respond to this but I will say this much -- What you're saying is -- Jesus' doctrine was phony.
How long has it been since you ceased being a follower of Jesus? Or were you never a follower?
The doctrine that Jesus taught was far removed and very different than the biblical interpretations Of Mr. Wierwille...I'm sorry that after all this time, you still fail to see that.
If you recall, Jesus was declared to be absent in twi and it is somewhat difficult to follow someone who is absent...especially when you are taught that the written word (which Wierwille determined FOR us) takes the place of the absent Christ...I never followed Jesus until AFTER I left twi and rid myself of the wrong doctrines...but thanks for asking.
I don't know where VPW got the idea from than cancer is an evil spirt. During the great depression in the 1930's a few people died from cancer. After WW2 these cigarette companys put stuff that helped caused cancer. Even companys with food products put chemicals and presertives that also caused cancer. Radition causes cancer too. If he really believed in this nosense then he got what he deserved. Look what had happen to the TWI. since he passed away.
Mr. Wierwille was fully aware of the elevated position he had ascended to in the minds of his followers...therefore, his outlandish claims were not only nonsense but also irresponsible.
I will stop short of saying that he got what he deserved. It's not my place to determine that...in fact, I would not wish cancer on anyone...
...It's my opinion that VP taught many thing for the sake of "sensationalism"...especially in the advanced class. He loved to hear the "ooohs and aaahs" from his followers who hung on his every word. He lived for the adoration of his followers and insisted on being the center of attention at all times.
Do you- or anyone else competent in medical knowledge here- know if eye cancer (which led to VPW's liver cancer) can be caused by syphillis or another venerial disease?
If anyone wants to see VP's death certificate, it can be found at www.abouttheway.com
For the record:
I never said his cancer was caused by syphilis.
I said it would not surprise me to find that his delusions of grandeur were symptomatic of late stage syphilis.
BTW: Cervical cancer IS caused by a virus that can be transmitted by human contact.
Re: cancer is caused by a devil spirit.
That teaching was in the Advanced Class.
I have it in my silly-bus notes from 1973.
It is hand written and denoted with parentheses.(ie: It is a quote from the live class.)
The idea of a particular disease having its origins in workings of the Devil was also taught in that same class.
factoid#1. Eye cancer is extremely rare.
factoid#2. Cataracts are not a disease. They are caused by a disruption of the metabolic process of the lens.
Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
A handful of wayfers have reported they knew.
They were either right on grounds, or in direct contact with people on grounds,
or had rare coordinators who believed in full disclosure.
The overwhelming majority of posters-including myself- were all told that he
"got tired of the fight", or "stopped believing",
as if either was something that's written on a death certificate.
If an unhealthy germ is a devil spirit because it has life of its own, are all the healthy germs that crawl in and on us every moment of the day angel spirits? If so, how come no one in TWI ever taught us about them?
Larry: Very well then. Tell me. Was the man who asked Jesus to heal his son a saint or a sinner?
Dmiller: Doesn't matter.
Correct. :) It didn't matter to Jesus either.
You missed the third *S* -- seeker.
Well, both a saint and a sinner could be seeking. I don't think just because one becomes a saint, seeking (answers) stops.
Ya know --let me put it on the line here -- OK?? I have NO beef with you, and if that's cool with you, it cetainly is with me.
Oh, I never felt you had a beef with me. Even if you did I would be cool with that. It might be legit. We're cool.
You bring up points from your perspective, as I do mine.
Of course.
I don't want to fight.
I'm a lover, not a fighter. ;)
Perhaps we can each offer points of view, that each of us can learn from, without being antagonistic.
We can. However, antagonism isn't just defined as hostility. The whole premise of GS is the presentation of an opposing viewpoint. Some people are very passionate about that and having their position challenged can turn passion into anger and anger can lead to hostility.
Perhaps this thread will end up in Doctrinal (given how it is going),
Oh, in my opinion, many of the threads in this particular forum should be in the doctrinal one. Anytime you talk about beliefs (how erroneous they were/are) how can it not be a doctrinal matter?
but if it does, I'm prepared to be civil to you, as you present your viewpoints.
Ok.
So -- I just found myself being antagonistic -- and for that I apologize.
Ok.
I'd like to redress that situation, and maybe learn something from the *other side*.
The doctrine that Jesus taught was far removed and very different than the biblical interpretations Of Mr. Wierwille...I'm sorry that after all this time, you still fail to see that.
I'm doing ok. No need to feel sorry.
If you recall, Jesus was declared to be absent in twi
If I recall, the teaching was Jesus was absent IN THE FLESH.
and it is somewhat difficult to follow someone who is absent...
Not difficult at all if his words are preserved thus . . .
especially when you are taught that the written word (which Wierwille determined FOR us) takes the place of the absent Christ...
. . . VP was correct. We still have the words and acts of Jesus that makes it possible to follow Jesus. Unless Jesus has made a personal (physical) appearance to you I don't see how it would be possible for you to follow him without the Written Word.
I never followed Jesus until AFTER I left twi and rid myself of the wrong doctrines...but thanks for asking.
You're welcome. So, how is your preaching of the Gospel going these days? Have you reconciled very many people to God?
I'm no expert, just a medical transcriptionist/secretary with an inquiring mind and pretty decent memory. I became involved with TWI because I was secretary to a general surgeon, now retired, who was rather well known in TWI and in fact signed VPW's death certificate.
VPW died of metastatic malignant melanoma. Malignant melanoma is a particularly virulent cancer that generally has its primary site (original tumor) in the skin, though rarely the primary melanoma can be internal, such as in the lining of the stomach, or IN THE EYE, which is where the primary malignant melanoma was located that eventually caused the death of VPW. Hence the removal of the eye which contained the primary.
Cancers are weird diseases. Certain primary cancers like to metastasize to certain organs. Colon cancer, for example, very very frequently metastasizes to the lungs. Breast cancer goes to the bones, lungs, and brain, and elsewhere also.
Ocular melanoma, that begins as a primary tumor in an eye, likes to metastasize to the liver, as did VPW's. This does not necessarily mean that he had damaged his liver through overuse of alcohol; maybe he had, maybe not. It simply means that Ocular melanoma likes the liver. I don't know if there were other metastases to other organs. How do I, a mere humble peon of a secretary/transcriptionist know this? Because the secretary of the ophthalmologic surgeon who treated ocular melanoma told me so. We secretaries can be pretty smart cookies, you know!
Nowadays they place a tiny plaque on the tumor in the eye. The plaque contains an appropriate amount of radioactive material to kill the tumor and hopefully save some of the sight in the affected eye. Time of course is of the essence, as with any cancer, the sooner the surgery, the more likely recovery. The tumor stays right there, but withers and does not grow or metastasize (hopefully).
Okay, now for some discussion on another comment or two:
We live in a corrupted world. The world began to corrupt the moment Adam and Eve walked out of the garden, and it has continued to do so until this very milimicron of a nanosecond, and will do so until God decides it's time for us all to come home. Our physical bodies are corruptible flesh. The older we get, the more it breaks down, just like the world it lives in, but at a greater rate. For anyone to blame the ill person for their illness is just plain wrong, and that is what the socalled law of believing did, eventually.
I've written before about my experience with TWI after being diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes. No one offered to pray with me or minister to me. Instead, I was asked (by a sister-in-law of LCM) "Do you understand WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you?" I was watched closely and criticized greatly, for I had obviously sinned or I wouldn't be taking insulin, now, would I?
Perhaps some of this false doctrine had already crept in to TWI by the time VPW was dying of his cancer. Certainly, the shame and horror of having this very person who had taught, and I definitely remember being taught, that cancer was caused by a devil spirit possession because cancer is a disease that has life of itself (like HELL IT DOES) dying of cancer himself.
I agree with the comment someone made about the chemicals and carcinogens that are corrupting just about everything. It would be interesting to research rates of death from, say, colon cancer in the USA versus other countries where the common diet is high in fiber and low in highly processed foods and red meat. That has been accomplished, and the results were astonishing. People who eat lots of raw or lightly steamed veggies, raw fruits, and only smaller amounts of chicken and fish seldom suffer adenocarcinoma of the colon, which is a fairly common killer in the USA.
Melanoma is primarily a disease of sun-loving white people. There are other forms of skin cancer caused by overexposure to sunlight, but melanoma is the one that will TAKE YOU OUT quickly and efficiently. I think, IMO only, that it is not inconceivable that the lights used in filming PFAL may well have burned VPW's eyes interiorly so that eventually he did develop this melanoma. Though it seems it would have developed at a time much closer to the event. So that's all I know and a few opinions thrown in for good measure.
If an unhealthy germ is a devil spirit because it has life of its own, are all the healthy germs that crawl in and on us every moment of the day angel spirits? If so, how come no one in TWI ever taught us about them?
I don't know, Abi. Detailed teachings covering the topic of "angels" were pitifully few by comparison to the "devil spirits" emphasized in twi.
If I recall, the teaching was Jesus was absent IN THE FLESH.
Right on Larry! :) As I recall the PFAL teaching it was "God is The Word", "Jesus is the Word in THE FLESH", "the bible is the Word in Writing". So Jesus Christ not being here in the flesh, the Word takes the place of the absent Christ. Simple really.
This wasn't a problem or misunderstood when Wierwille taught it. If it was, there would have been clarification. Only the past few years is this so-called kakamayemee "absent Christ" doctrine being spewed as if it were historical fact by some GS posters. Whether PFAL was right or wrong, if they're going to teach PFAL, they should at least teach it accurately.
Sorry if my post seemed to imply VP's indulgences caused his cancers.
Fact is, though, it's no secret that alcohol abuse can do serious and sometimes irreversible damage to the liver.
A damaged liver is compromised in its ability to ward off disease.
It's still speculation on my part that his lifestyle was a contributory factor in his destiny (though perhaps in a more indirect than direct fashion.)
The idea of cancer having a life of its own is contrary to medical science.
Cancer is parasitic in nature. If you remove its source of nutrition it will dissipate.
A virus, on the other hand, is a whole other ball of wax. It can hide in the shadows for long periods of time until conditions are conducive for it to make an appearance.
Following the logic that having a life of its own is equal to devil possession, you would have to conclude that the presence of a cold sore(caused by a virus) is proof of devil spirits being present.
Here is a little snip from my Advanced Class notes (circa 1973)
(hand written, not in the printed text.)
Definition:
Power Of Attorney----
(Vp quoted this from a book titled Handbook For Everyday Law and added his own "asides".)
"There are occasions when the principle, (Jesus Christ), is not available to carry on his business.
He may then execute a general Power Of Attorney authorizing an "attorney- in- fact", (born again believer) as his agent to carry on his business for him."
Sounds like the beginnings of the absent Christ doctrine from what I see.
Waysider, you are absolutely correct. Someone else had asked some medical question I was trying to answer. And darn right your lifestyle will get you if you don't watch out! I would mention smoking, which I used to do, but I am concerned about displeasing some folks here who smoke.
Since I became a diabetic through no fault of my own (type 1 is pretty much genetic) I have learned a lot of tips about good diet, exercise and keeping my glucose under control. IF I don't and my kidneys, legs, heart, whatever give out on me, hey I was warned!
They were either right on grounds, or in direct contact with people on grounds,
or had rare coordinators who believed in full disclosure.
The overwhelming majority of posters-including myself- were all told that he
"got tired of the fight", or "stopped believing",
as if either was something that's written on a death certificate.
As a member of a "satellite research fellowship" in Houston at the time, I was told by Wierwille's daughter Karen exactly what the cause of death was (ocular and liver cancer), although it was cushioned with the standard boilerplate of "gave up the fight."
People get sick; people die. One of the hardest verses in theBible for me to reconcile is 2 Tim. 4:20b "But Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick." Couldn't Paul believe to heal him? Couldn't Trophimus believe to get healed? Certainly there are a number af cases where people were healed by their believing, but there's obviously more to it than that.
George
As a further note, at the ROA after VP's death, I spoke with one of the Corps women I had sponsored, pointing out that I hoped that knowledge of the cause of his death would eliminate teh goofy teaching about cancer being "life of itself" and, hence, spirit. She had no idea he had died of cancer. :unsure:
Waysider, you are absolutely correct. Someone else had asked some medical question I was trying to answer. And darn right your lifestyle will get you if you don't watch out! I would mention smoking, which I used to do, but I am concerned about displeasing some folks here who smoke.
Since I became a diabetic through no fault of my own (type 1 is pretty much genetic) I have learned a lot of tips about good diet, exercise and keeping my glucose under control. IF I don't and my kidneys, legs, heart, whatever give out on me, hey I was warned!
Maybe VP thought he was invincible.
WG
I was told if you smoke, you better do it with believing.....sigh. I'm almost sure this mentality came down the waytree. Does believing make people invincible? A lot of wayfers think/thought so.
There are only a few people in the world whose genetics are strong enough to fight the carcinogenic effects smoking causes.
Absolutely, Notta. Genes ain't what they used to be, I'm afraid.
At least slightly
Unfortunately, researchers are still finding diseases that can be linked to smoking, in addition to Lung cancer, emphysema, asthma, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. I even heard once that there is thought that uterine cancer can be linked to smoking, at least partly.
Plus the fact that long term smoking is hard on the skin, causing older people who are long time smokers to have wrinkles and lines radiating from their lips as if they had been stuck in a permanent pucker.
All that said, I do support the individual's right to make their own decision about smoking. JUst don't do it around the kids, please. My grandson's mother, maternal grandmother, aunt and uncle all live at least part of the time in the same house and all four smoke like chimneys. He has a cough and wheeze all winter long.
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dmiller
John --I think you missed my point, from my earlier post.
(No complaints on my end).
I guess that when I mentioned that at (one point in time),
they (twi) could mobilize the entire ORG in prayer for a ficticious
*National Emergency*, they could've done the same for docvic ---
but they didn't.
That's all. No more, no less. :)
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Larry N Moore
Sure, but what you read isn't always the truth of the matter. How is it that you have so easily forgotten the words of Jesus?
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dmiller
Who said I did?? You perhaps, but how would you know that??
Jesus and docvic are NOT compatible.
The sayings of one, are the antithesis of the other.
But -- I'm guessing you'll disagree with that, eh?? ;)
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Larry N Moore
You bet ya! The only way we would really know for sure is to compare the doctrine of VP with that of Jesus' concerning healing. I'll give you one verse we could consider: Mark 9:23.
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dmiller
Mark 9:23 does NOT say it works for saint and sinner alike.
(And that's (one of) the differences). ;)
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Larry N Moore
Very well then. Tell me. Was the man who asked Jesus to heal his son a saint or a sinner?
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dmiller
Doesn't matter. You missed the third *S* -- seeker.
A man who (yes -- was chastised for *unbelief), but received the deliverance asked for.
Ya know --let me put it on the line here -- OK??
I have NO beef with you, and if that's cool with you, it cetainly is with me.
You bring up points from your perspective, as I do mine.
I don't want to fight. Perhaps we can each offer points of view,
that each of us can learn from, without being antagonistic.
Perhaps this thread will end up in Doctrinal (given how it is going),
but if it does, I'm prepared to be civil to you, as you present your viewpoints.
So -- I just found myself being antagonistic -- and for that I apologize.
I'd like to redress that situation, and maybe learn something from the *other side*.
What say ye???
(Your question WAS a good one!!) ;)
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TheInvisibleDan
William Branham, transcribed from a teaching on the topic of Demonology in 1953:
I can imagine Wierwille listening to this guy on the radio during the 50s/early 60s. He appears to have been a huge influence upon that generation.
If I was a movie producer or documentary filmmaker, William Branham would be a fantastic subject.
http://www.bibleway.org/wmb/
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GrouchoMarxJr
The doctrine that Jesus taught was far removed and very different than the biblical interpretations Of Mr. Wierwille...I'm sorry that after all this time, you still fail to see that.
If you recall, Jesus was declared to be absent in twi and it is somewhat difficult to follow someone who is absent...especially when you are taught that the written word (which Wierwille determined FOR us) takes the place of the absent Christ...I never followed Jesus until AFTER I left twi and rid myself of the wrong doctrines...but thanks for asking.
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nyunknown
I don't know where VPW got the idea from than cancer is an evil spirt. During the great depression in the 1930's a few people died from cancer. After WW2 these cigarette companys put stuff that helped caused cancer. Even companys with food products put chemicals and presertives that also caused cancer. Radition causes cancer too. If he really believed in this nosense then he got what he deserved. Look what had happen to the TWI. since he passed away.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mr. Wierwille was fully aware of the elevated position he had ascended to in the minds of his followers...therefore, his outlandish claims were not only nonsense but also irresponsible.
I will stop short of saying that he got what he deserved. It's not my place to determine that...in fact, I would not wish cancer on anyone...
...It's my opinion that VP taught many thing for the sake of "sensationalism"...especially in the advanced class. He loved to hear the "ooohs and aaahs" from his followers who hung on his every word. He lived for the adoration of his followers and insisted on being the center of attention at all times.
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waysider
For the record:
I never said his cancer was caused by syphilis.
I said it would not surprise me to find that his delusions of grandeur were symptomatic of late stage syphilis.
BTW: Cervical cancer IS caused by a virus that can be transmitted by human contact.
Re: cancer is caused by a devil spirit.
That teaching was in the Advanced Class.
I have it in my silly-bus notes from 1973.
It is hand written and denoted with parentheses.(ie: It is a quote from the live class.)
The idea of a particular disease having its origins in workings of the Devil was also taught in that same class.
factoid#1. Eye cancer is extremely rare.
factoid#2. Cataracts are not a disease. They are caused by a disruption of the metabolic process of the lens.
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WordWolf
A handful of wayfers have reported they knew.
They were either right on grounds, or in direct contact with people on grounds,
or had rare coordinators who believed in full disclosure.
The overwhelming majority of posters-including myself- were all told that he
"got tired of the fight", or "stopped believing",
as if either was something that's written on a death certificate.
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Abigail
If an unhealthy germ is a devil spirit because it has life of its own, are all the healthy germs that crawl in and on us every moment of the day angel spirits? If so, how come no one in TWI ever taught us about them?
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Larry N Moore
Larry: Very well then. Tell me. Was the man who asked Jesus to heal his son a saint or a sinner?
Dmiller: Doesn't matter.
Correct. :) It didn't matter to Jesus either.
You missed the third *S* -- seeker.
Well, both a saint and a sinner could be seeking. I don't think just because one becomes a saint, seeking (answers) stops.
Ya know --let me put it on the line here -- OK?? I have NO beef with you, and if that's cool with you, it cetainly is with me.
Oh, I never felt you had a beef with me. Even if you did I would be cool with that. It might be legit. We're cool.
You bring up points from your perspective, as I do mine.
Of course.
I don't want to fight.
I'm a lover, not a fighter. ;)
Perhaps we can each offer points of view, that each of us can learn from, without being antagonistic.
We can. However, antagonism isn't just defined as hostility. The whole premise of GS is the presentation of an opposing viewpoint. Some people are very passionate about that and having their position challenged can turn passion into anger and anger can lead to hostility.
Perhaps this thread will end up in Doctrinal (given how it is going),
Oh, in my opinion, many of the threads in this particular forum should be in the doctrinal one. Anytime you talk about beliefs (how erroneous they were/are) how can it not be a doctrinal matter?
but if it does, I'm prepared to be civil to you, as you present your viewpoints.
Ok.
So -- I just found myself being antagonistic -- and for that I apologize.
Ok.
I'd like to redress that situation, and maybe learn something from the *other side*.
What say ye???
Ok.
(Your question WAS a good one!!) ;)
Just popped into my head. ;)
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Larry N Moore
I'm doing ok. No need to feel sorry.
If I recall, the teaching was Jesus was absent IN THE FLESH.Not difficult at all if his words are preserved thus . . .
. . . VP was correct. We still have the words and acts of Jesus that makes it possible to follow Jesus. Unless Jesus has made a personal (physical) appearance to you I don't see how it would be possible for you to follow him without the Written Word.You're welcome. So, how is your preaching of the Gospel going these days? Have you reconciled very many people to God?
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Watered Garden
Okay, here goes:
I'm no expert, just a medical transcriptionist/secretary with an inquiring mind and pretty decent memory. I became involved with TWI because I was secretary to a general surgeon, now retired, who was rather well known in TWI and in fact signed VPW's death certificate.
VPW died of metastatic malignant melanoma. Malignant melanoma is a particularly virulent cancer that generally has its primary site (original tumor) in the skin, though rarely the primary melanoma can be internal, such as in the lining of the stomach, or IN THE EYE, which is where the primary malignant melanoma was located that eventually caused the death of VPW. Hence the removal of the eye which contained the primary.
Cancers are weird diseases. Certain primary cancers like to metastasize to certain organs. Colon cancer, for example, very very frequently metastasizes to the lungs. Breast cancer goes to the bones, lungs, and brain, and elsewhere also.
Ocular melanoma, that begins as a primary tumor in an eye, likes to metastasize to the liver, as did VPW's. This does not necessarily mean that he had damaged his liver through overuse of alcohol; maybe he had, maybe not. It simply means that Ocular melanoma likes the liver. I don't know if there were other metastases to other organs. How do I, a mere humble peon of a secretary/transcriptionist know this? Because the secretary of the ophthalmologic surgeon who treated ocular melanoma told me so. We secretaries can be pretty smart cookies, you know!
Nowadays they place a tiny plaque on the tumor in the eye. The plaque contains an appropriate amount of radioactive material to kill the tumor and hopefully save some of the sight in the affected eye. Time of course is of the essence, as with any cancer, the sooner the surgery, the more likely recovery. The tumor stays right there, but withers and does not grow or metastasize (hopefully).
Okay, now for some discussion on another comment or two:
We live in a corrupted world. The world began to corrupt the moment Adam and Eve walked out of the garden, and it has continued to do so until this very milimicron of a nanosecond, and will do so until God decides it's time for us all to come home. Our physical bodies are corruptible flesh. The older we get, the more it breaks down, just like the world it lives in, but at a greater rate. For anyone to blame the ill person for their illness is just plain wrong, and that is what the socalled law of believing did, eventually.
I've written before about my experience with TWI after being diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes. No one offered to pray with me or minister to me. Instead, I was asked (by a sister-in-law of LCM) "Do you understand WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you?" I was watched closely and criticized greatly, for I had obviously sinned or I wouldn't be taking insulin, now, would I?
Perhaps some of this false doctrine had already crept in to TWI by the time VPW was dying of his cancer. Certainly, the shame and horror of having this very person who had taught, and I definitely remember being taught, that cancer was caused by a devil spirit possession because cancer is a disease that has life of itself (like HELL IT DOES) dying of cancer himself.
I agree with the comment someone made about the chemicals and carcinogens that are corrupting just about everything. It would be interesting to research rates of death from, say, colon cancer in the USA versus other countries where the common diet is high in fiber and low in highly processed foods and red meat. That has been accomplished, and the results were astonishing. People who eat lots of raw or lightly steamed veggies, raw fruits, and only smaller amounts of chicken and fish seldom suffer adenocarcinoma of the colon, which is a fairly common killer in the USA.
Melanoma is primarily a disease of sun-loving white people. There are other forms of skin cancer caused by overexposure to sunlight, but melanoma is the one that will TAKE YOU OUT quickly and efficiently. I think, IMO only, that it is not inconceivable that the lights used in filming PFAL may well have burned VPW's eyes interiorly so that eventually he did develop this melanoma. Though it seems it would have developed at a time much closer to the event. So that's all I know and a few opinions thrown in for good measure.
WG
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TheInvisibleDan
I don't know, Abi. Detailed teachings covering the topic of "angels" were pitifully few by comparison to the "devil spirits" emphasized in twi.
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oldiesman
Right on Larry! :) As I recall the PFAL teaching it was "God is The Word", "Jesus is the Word in THE FLESH", "the bible is the Word in Writing". So Jesus Christ not being here in the flesh, the Word takes the place of the absent Christ. Simple really.
This wasn't a problem or misunderstood when Wierwille taught it. If it was, there would have been clarification. Only the past few years is this so-called kakamayemee "absent Christ" doctrine being spewed as if it were historical fact by some GS posters. Whether PFAL was right or wrong, if they're going to teach PFAL, they should at least teach it accurately.
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waysider
Hiya, WG
Sorry if my post seemed to imply VP's indulgences caused his cancers.
Fact is, though, it's no secret that alcohol abuse can do serious and sometimes irreversible damage to the liver.
A damaged liver is compromised in its ability to ward off disease.
It's still speculation on my part that his lifestyle was a contributory factor in his destiny (though perhaps in a more indirect than direct fashion.)
The idea of cancer having a life of its own is contrary to medical science.
Cancer is parasitic in nature. If you remove its source of nutrition it will dissipate.
A virus, on the other hand, is a whole other ball of wax. It can hide in the shadows for long periods of time until conditions are conducive for it to make an appearance.
Following the logic that having a life of its own is equal to devil possession, you would have to conclude that the presence of a cold sore(caused by a virus) is proof of devil spirits being present.
--------------------------------------------------------
Here is a little snip from my Advanced Class notes (circa 1973)
(hand written, not in the printed text.)
Definition:
Power Of Attorney----
(Vp quoted this from a book titled Handbook For Everyday Law and added his own "asides".)
"There are occasions when the principle, (Jesus Christ), is not available to carry on his business.
He may then execute a general Power Of Attorney authorizing an "attorney- in- fact", (born again believer) as his agent to carry on his business for him."
Sounds like the beginnings of the absent Christ doctrine from what I see.
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Watered Garden
Waysider, you are absolutely correct. Someone else had asked some medical question I was trying to answer. And darn right your lifestyle will get you if you don't watch out! I would mention smoking, which I used to do, but I am concerned about displeasing some folks here who smoke.
Since I became a diabetic through no fault of my own (type 1 is pretty much genetic) I have learned a lot of tips about good diet, exercise and keeping my glucose under control. IF I don't and my kidneys, legs, heart, whatever give out on me, hey I was warned!
Maybe VP thought he was invincible.
WG
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GeorgeStGeorge
As a member of a "satellite research fellowship" in Houston at the time, I was told by Wierwille's daughter Karen exactly what the cause of death was (ocular and liver cancer), although it was cushioned with the standard boilerplate of "gave up the fight."
People get sick; people die. One of the hardest verses in theBible for me to reconcile is 2 Tim. 4:20b "But Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick." Couldn't Paul believe to heal him? Couldn't Trophimus believe to get healed? Certainly there are a number af cases where people were healed by their believing, but there's obviously more to it than that.
George
As a further note, at the ROA after VP's death, I spoke with one of the Corps women I had sponsored, pointing out that I hoped that knowledge of the cause of his death would eliminate teh goofy teaching about cancer being "life of itself" and, hence, spirit. She had no idea he had died of cancer. :unsure:
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Nottawayfer
I was told if you smoke, you better do it with believing.....sigh. I'm almost sure this mentality came down the waytree. Does believing make people invincible? A lot of wayfers think/thought so.
There are only a few people in the world whose genetics are strong enough to fight the carcinogenic effects smoking causes.
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Watered Garden
Absolutely, Notta. Genes ain't what they used to be, I'm afraid.
At least slightly
Unfortunately, researchers are still finding diseases that can be linked to smoking, in addition to Lung cancer, emphysema, asthma, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. I even heard once that there is thought that uterine cancer can be linked to smoking, at least partly.
Plus the fact that long term smoking is hard on the skin, causing older people who are long time smokers to have wrinkles and lines radiating from their lips as if they had been stuck in a permanent pucker.
All that said, I do support the individual's right to make their own decision about smoking. JUst don't do it around the kids, please. My grandson's mother, maternal grandmother, aunt and uncle all live at least part of the time in the same house and all four smoke like chimneys. He has a cough and wheeze all winter long.
WG
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