Whether some cancers, all cancers, or no cancers are caused by demon possession or not is an interesting subject itself. I worked in a cancer hospital for nine years. One of the doctors I worked for was a cancer survivor. I used to be amazed to think that had I been "in" I would have been strictly forbidden to work there.
Personally, I think the doctrine of cancer being caused by possession with demons is BS. If cancer is a disease that has life of itself, why doesn't the cancer continue to be alive after the patient expires? Kinda like a zombie?
Cancer isn't even one disease; it's about 600 or more. Some are more easily curable than others; some not curable at all except by surgery in very early stages.
I think TWI, when confronted by the not-so-easily explainable, simply threw in the handy explanation "Oh that is devil spirit possession."
And I think they knew they did it. So no, I don't think they believed it themselves (to make a short story long).
Oh I don't know -- maybe VP was just tired of living. The last time I saw him that was the impression I got. Maybe he thought suicide wasn't the way to go.
I can see how praying for a person who has given up on living may be one of those prayers not being answered.
I remember Craig mentioning that VPW told him he wanted him to minister to him. What a lot of pressure to put on a person. In TWI, "ministering" alway seemed to have a bigger connotation than just prayer. It was like someone saying "I want you to heal me." That time frame may have been before he was starting to give up.
Oh I don't know -- maybe VP was just tired of living. The last time I saw him that was the impression I got. Maybe he thought suicide wasn't the way to go.
I can see how praying for a person who has given up on living may be one of those prayers not being answered.
Wait a minute here!...Why was prayer even necessary?..."All believing equals receiving"..."works for saint and sinner alike". God wasn't necessary in the twi equation...it was that magical power in your own mind that caused things to happen...or have you forgotten the twi doctrine?
Wierwille's death is a testamony that twi's doctrines were as phoney as Wierwille himself.
I remember being told that VPW chose to die because he was so dissapointed in the way Craig turned out and that he couldn't stand to see his ministry destroyed and that he was being ignored and treated like an old nutcase.
Sounds like a good cover for the reality that he had cancer. It was after his death that most found out that he and Craig were of the same perverted ilk so the dying on purpose story made sense to a lot of people.
The man indulged himself with known carcinogens in a very, very large fashion.
Why would anybody be surprised at his destiny?
A life of its own?
Well, herpes is caused by a virus(which has a life of its own) so maybe that next cold sore one gets is really a debuhl spirt manifesting itself in the senses realm.
I suggest that anyone who still struggles with this issue read the article here on GSC that deals with the dilemma of VPW's death.
He!!, it wouldn't surprise me to find that his delusions of grandeur were symptomatic of late stage syphilis.
Not saying that is the case, just saying it wouldn't surprise me.
(given his known track record of promiscuity)
For the record, I never knew he died of cancer until I started lurking at Grease Spot.
And, I asked many people who should have had the inside scoop.(and probably did.)
Why is that?
Gee, maybe because that basic piece of info was shrouded in secrecy?
The man died as a result of his self-destructive indulgences.
*Believing* doesn't have a blasted thing to do with it.
"Oh, but he fought the good fight--blah, blah, blah"
His body paid the price for the abuses he subjected it to.
There is nothing deeply spiritual or philosophical about it.
You have tens of thousands of prayer warriors that could have been rallied into 24 hour prayer vigils within an hours time...Why didn`t they ask folks to pray?? Did they not believe in the power of these peoples prayers??
Why would they deny the people whom were supposed to be the spiritually sharpest in the world a chance to pray for their ailing minister?
How could they think, based on the doctrine that we were taught that this would not have affected the outcome of his illness???
I have to think that based on their refusal to inform the believers of the life and death battle going on.......that they just didn`t think enough of the power in the heartfelt earnest prayers of tens maybe hundreds of thousands of believers on behalf of their beloved teacher to even lift the reciever of a phone to make the request....
Good point Rascal. And kinda , (but maybe not) --- I remember once back in 1979,
(or 1978 -- somewhere in there), that someone at Hdqtrs picked up the phone,
called their *chain of command*, who in turn called THEIR chain of command,
and before you knew it -- all us *twiggies* (all over the USA), were being asked to pray.
I know it was one of those two years -- cause I got the call from my branch leader,
at 8 AM in the morning -- as I was clocking in at work, as a clerk at a local camping store.
One of them there things I remember clearly.
Something about National Security -- I forget what THAT *present crisis* was by now,
but that was the jist of it, and they (effectively) got hold of all folks within the Org.
From what I heard about that instance (it might have been on a SNS tape),
they had made contact with ALL believers in a very short amount of time.
Not only had the *chain of command* worked, but they were bragging about it.
If they could do it once, they could do it again -- yet they chose NOT to.
(At least in the case of docvic and his *condition*).
Meebe they were embarassed because of what he was suffering from.
(How do they ask for you to pray for the MOG, dying from debbil spurit possession??)
Perhaps that thing they did back in the late 1970's was a *dry run* to see if it was feasible.
Who the hey knows why they do (or don't do) things???
You get explanations -- only if they choose to divulge them.
They are a law unto themselves.
And as followers of their Law -- they have fallen from Grace.
I still don't remember hearing VP say that cancer IS a devil spirit. Caused by devil spirits, yes. Makes sense. Steal kill and destroy. Yeah, cancer does that.
In his tape THE HEALING WORD he said that at some point our believing stops and we die. He didn't say it was bad behavior on the part of the person, he said it was inevitable for everybody if the Lord tarries.
Nobody knows what "they" were believing and not believing during VPs last days. I would be willing to bet that they did whatever he told them to do and didn't do what he told them not to do.
I still don't remember hearing VP say that cancer IS a devil spirit. Caused by devil spirits, yes. Makes sense. Steal kill and destroy. Yeah, cancer does that.
Well -- I'll hafta agree with you on that, because I don't remember EGG-ZACTLY*.
BUT -- (if I recollect correct), one had to OPEN THEIR MINDS TO THE *SPIRITS*.
Meebe cancer wasn't a *Daimon*, but according to docvic and his teaching --
he *opened his mind to it*, and reaped the results (if you believe cancer is caused by ds).
In his tape THE HEALING WORD he said that at some point our believing stops and we die. He didn't say it was bad behavior on the part of the person, he said it was inevitable for everybody if the Lord tarries.
The Bible says as much about death. Believing has NOTHING TO DO with it.
Nobody knows what "they" were believing and not believing during VPs last days. I would be willing to bet that they did whatever he told them to do and didn't do what he told them not to do.
Yup -- that was me. But THAT'S not the topic of this thread. :)
The topic here is WHY didn't folks from Hdqrtrs mount a *prayer chain* for docvic.
They (out of all of us), knew he was gonna kick the bucket,
and that *bucket* was fast approaching. And they said nothing.
They are a Law unto themselves, and have fallen from Grace.
I believe that the first person who ever had cancer probably WAS possessed and the spirits used his/her body as a laboratory and that this could happen today, but that's not how so many people get cancer. There has to be some combination of weakness in a person's body mixed with poison in food, water, and/or air that causes so many people to get it. This would not require direct input from a spirit.
Whether some cancers, all cancers, or no cancers are caused by demon possession or not is an interesting subject itself. I worked in a cancer hospital for nine years. One of the doctors I worked for was a cancer survivor.
WG
Do you- or anyone else competent in medical knowledge here- know if eye cancer (which led to VPW's liver cancer) can be caused by syphillis or another venerial disease?
If anyone wants to see VP's death certificate, it can be found at www.abouttheway.com
I believe that the first person who ever had cancer probably WAS possessed and the spirits used his/her body as a laboratory and that this could happen today, but that's not how so many people get cancer. There has to be some combination of weakness in a person's body mixed with poison in food, water, and/or air that causes so many people to get it. This would not require direct input from a spirit.
John -- Ok -- I can see how you might think that. And I ain't a'gonna argue.
BUT ---- the *thrust* of this thread is STILL what Rascal asked in the first place.
Why didn't twi get together prayer for docvic, when he needed it *the most*???
What were their motives for NOT doing so??
Did they (or did they NOT) believe in prayer??
Were they embarassed because of what he had, and what he had taught?
Would they have changed tactics, if he had (merely) pneumonia???
In my first post on this thread -- I focused on what Rascal said about the
TOTAL LACK OF INVOLVING OTHERS IN PRAYER FOR THE GUY.
Nother words (short and simple) -- they were looking at a paycheck and a lifestyle.
They had no love for the man, other than what he provided for them as a monetary legacy.
They didn't give a ratzz-azz about anything except themselves.
THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!!!!
Bozos on a bus, leading a group to oblivion, with No concern for others.
*Keeping the Legacy* intact, meant money for them.
Asking for prayer for a man who is dying because of a conditiion he taught against,
would contradict everything else that they were taught, by that man.
So what it boils down to (imo), is NOT whether it was spirit or not.
What it DOES boil down to is -- How well do they take care of their own??
They took better *care* of him, than they did Dottsie. Nuff said. :(
They are a Law unto themselves, and have fallen from Grace.
Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
Notta -- No.
John Juedes' site gave me the first real glimpse of the *truth*, behind the *mystique*.
No, I haven't forgotten it. Your version of it doesn't mesh with mine.
Wierwille's death is a testamony that twi's doctrines were as phoney as Wierwille himself.
Well, seeing as this is not the doctrinal forum I am somewhat limited in how I may respond to this but I will say this much -- What you're saying is -- Jesus' doctrine was phony.
How long has it been since you ceased being a follower of Jesus? Or were you never a follower?
quote: Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
I was told that he died of cancer by a twig cordo in Grand Rapids, MI. This guy had been an accountant at HQ for 9 years, including at the time of VPs death. Can't remember exactly when he told us. It wasn't part of a fellowship; it was informal. The guy was talking and a few of us were in the room. He said that when VP had his eye removed in late 1983 that Fritz Weingarner told VP about the tumor and gave him max 5 years to live.
quote: John -- Ok -- I can see how you might think that. And I ain't a'gonna argue.
BUT ---- the *thrust* of this thread is STILL what Rascal asked in the first place.
Why didn't twi get together prayer for docvic, when he needed it *the most*???
Just because they didn't have the whole ministry pray doesn't mean they didn't have select individuals pray. As I said, they probably handled it the way VP wanted them to handle it. It is speculation to infer that they only cared for themselves; we really don't know.
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Abigail
You ask some very good questions here, Rascal. Why not ask the "Household" to pray for VPW's healing?
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Watered Garden
Whether some cancers, all cancers, or no cancers are caused by demon possession or not is an interesting subject itself. I worked in a cancer hospital for nine years. One of the doctors I worked for was a cancer survivor. I used to be amazed to think that had I been "in" I would have been strictly forbidden to work there.
Personally, I think the doctrine of cancer being caused by possession with demons is BS. If cancer is a disease that has life of itself, why doesn't the cancer continue to be alive after the patient expires? Kinda like a zombie?
Cancer isn't even one disease; it's about 600 or more. Some are more easily curable than others; some not curable at all except by surgery in very early stages.
I think TWI, when confronted by the not-so-easily explainable, simply threw in the handy explanation "Oh that is devil spirit possession."
And I think they knew they did it. So no, I don't think they believed it themselves (to make a short story long).
WG
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Nottawayfer
Abi asked why didn't they have the household pray.
They did in a round-a-bout way. We had 24 hours of prayer for him. We just didn't know the exact details.
You know SITing is perfect prayer, and God knows what the need is.
Boy did they use that to their advantage.
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Larry N Moore
Oh I don't know -- maybe VP was just tired of living. The last time I saw him that was the impression I got. Maybe he thought suicide wasn't the way to go.
I can see how praying for a person who has given up on living may be one of those prayers not being answered.
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rascal
Cancer has a way of doing that.....
my point was that they didn`t believe in the power of prayer or they would have energized what was at there disposal.
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rascal
Cancer has a way of doing that.....
my point was that they didn`t believe in the power of prayer or they would have energized what was at there disposal.
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Ham
I would vote that they were probably more concerned with the power of politics.
The what if's.. what if we rally the troups, and herr mogmeister dies anyway..
but it could be that they were in denial. "Naw.. he's the mogster.. he can believe his way out of this.."
In reality, he couldn't believe his way out of a wet paper bag..
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Nottawayfer
I remember Craig mentioning that VPW told him he wanted him to minister to him. What a lot of pressure to put on a person. In TWI, "ministering" alway seemed to have a bigger connotation than just prayer. It was like someone saying "I want you to heal me." That time frame may have been before he was starting to give up.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wait a minute here!...Why was prayer even necessary?..."All believing equals receiving"..."works for saint and sinner alike". God wasn't necessary in the twi equation...it was that magical power in your own mind that caused things to happen...or have you forgotten the twi doctrine?
Wierwille's death is a testamony that twi's doctrines were as phoney as Wierwille himself.
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excathedra
he didn't have his needs and wants parallel
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Georgio Jessio
I remember being told that VPW chose to die because he was so dissapointed in the way Craig turned out and that he couldn't stand to see his ministry destroyed and that he was being ignored and treated like an old nutcase.
Sounds like a good cover for the reality that he had cancer. It was after his death that most found out that he and Craig were of the same perverted ilk so the dying on purpose story made sense to a lot of people.
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waysider
"Maybe he just quit believing."
What a crock of hooey!
The man indulged himself with known carcinogens in a very, very large fashion.
Why would anybody be surprised at his destiny?
A life of its own?
Well, herpes is caused by a virus(which has a life of its own) so maybe that next cold sore one gets is really a debuhl spirt manifesting itself in the senses realm.
I suggest that anyone who still struggles with this issue read the article here on GSC that deals with the dilemma of VPW's death.
He!!, it wouldn't surprise me to find that his delusions of grandeur were symptomatic of late stage syphilis.
Not saying that is the case, just saying it wouldn't surprise me.
(given his known track record of promiscuity)
For the record, I never knew he died of cancer until I started lurking at Grease Spot.
And, I asked many people who should have had the inside scoop.(and probably did.)
Why is that?
Gee, maybe because that basic piece of info was shrouded in secrecy?
The man died as a result of his self-destructive indulgences.
*Believing* doesn't have a blasted thing to do with it.
"Oh, but he fought the good fight--blah, blah, blah"
His body paid the price for the abuses he subjected it to.
There is nothing deeply spiritual or philosophical about it.
IMO!
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polar bear
Yea I'll bet we were told a lie about how he died. They lied about everything else.
Although he did drink as much as he prayed on women. So let's palce our bets, was it herpes or the the liver.
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dmiller
Good point Rascal. And kinda
, (but maybe not) --- I remember once back in 1979,
(or 1978 -- somewhere in there), that someone at Hdqtrs picked up the phone,
called their *chain of command*, who in turn called THEIR chain of command,
and before you knew it -- all us *twiggies* (all over the USA), were being asked to pray.
I know it was one of those two years -- cause I got the call from my branch leader,
at 8 AM in the morning -- as I was clocking in at work, as a clerk at a local camping store.
One of them there things I remember clearly.
Something about National Security -- I forget what THAT *present crisis* was by now,
but that was the jist of it, and they (effectively) got hold of all folks within the Org.
From what I heard about that instance (it might have been on a SNS tape),
they had made contact with ALL believers in a very short amount of time.
Not only had the *chain of command* worked, but they were bragging about it.
If they could do it once, they could do it again -- yet they chose NOT to.
(At least in the case of docvic and his *condition*).
Meebe they were embarassed because of what he was suffering from.
(How do they ask for you to pray for the MOG, dying from debbil spurit possession??)
Perhaps that thing they did back in the late 1970's was a *dry run* to see if it was feasible.
Who the hey knows why they do (or don't do) things???
You get explanations -- only if they choose to divulge them.
They are a law unto themselves.
And as followers of their Law -- they have fallen from Grace.
They've proved it time and again.
Selah.
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johniam
I still don't remember hearing VP say that cancer IS a devil spirit. Caused by devil spirits, yes. Makes sense. Steal kill and destroy. Yeah, cancer does that.
In his tape THE HEALING WORD he said that at some point our believing stops and we die. He didn't say it was bad behavior on the part of the person, he said it was inevitable for everybody if the Lord tarries.
Nobody knows what "they" were believing and not believing during VPs last days. I would be willing to bet that they did whatever he told them to do and didn't do what he told them not to do.
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dmiller
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dmiller
Ok -- John (NOT being argumentative here).
I DO remember docvic saying that cancer (life unto itself), was the prescence of spirit.
Now -- I can't document that without going through reams of tape, or pages of print,
(and I don't have either the time or willingness to do so).
Maybe you remember differently, and if that's the case, it's cool.
My impression (in my impression only), was that docvic was saying that you got this by possession.
He implied (strongly, I might add), that if you had it, you were possessed. I could be wrong,
but I don't think so. (Advanced Class comes to mind).
So -- From what I recall -- he taught it was due to direct possession,
and not merely a *cause and effect* thing like you are making it out to be.
So (in other words) -- He had it, and had it to the point that he died from it.
Personally -- I don't think it was spirit. It was a lifestyle that caught up with him.
Regardless of all that (whatever you or I might think),
twi did him wrong by NOT asking for prayer (whether it would have worked or not),
because of what he taught, and they were *bound* to in allegience to a *leader*,
who signed his own death warrant, (somewhat) due to his teachings.
They are a Law unto themselves, and have fallen from Grace.
Selah
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johniam
I believe that the first person who ever had cancer probably WAS possessed and the spirits used his/her body as a laboratory and that this could happen today, but that's not how so many people get cancer. There has to be some combination of weakness in a person's body mixed with poison in food, water, and/or air that causes so many people to get it. This would not require direct input from a spirit.
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johnj
Do you- or anyone else competent in medical knowledge here- know if eye cancer (which led to VPW's liver cancer) can be caused by syphillis or another venerial disease?
If anyone wants to see VP's death certificate, it can be found at www.abouttheway.com
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dmiller
John -- Ok -- I can see how you might think that. And I ain't a'gonna argue.
BUT ---- the *thrust* of this thread is STILL what Rascal asked in the first place.
Why didn't twi get together prayer for docvic, when he needed it *the most*???
What were their motives for NOT doing so??
Did they (or did they NOT) believe in prayer??
Were they embarassed because of what he had, and what he had taught?
Would they have changed tactics, if he had (merely) pneumonia???
In my first post on this thread -- I focused on what Rascal said about the
TOTAL LACK OF INVOLVING OTHERS IN PRAYER FOR THE GUY.
Nother words (short and simple) -- they were looking at a paycheck and a lifestyle.
They had no love for the man, other than what he provided for them as a monetary legacy.
They didn't give a ratzz-azz about anything except themselves.
THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!!!!
Bozos on a bus, leading a group to oblivion, with No concern for others.
*Keeping the Legacy* intact, meant money for them.
Asking for prayer for a man who is dying because of a conditiion he taught against,
would contradict everything else that they were taught, by that man.
So what it boils down to (imo), is NOT whether it was spirit or not.
What it DOES boil down to is -- How well do they take care of their own??
They took better *care* of him, than they did Dottsie. Nuff said. :(
They are a Law unto themselves, and have fallen from Grace.
Selah.
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Nottawayfer
Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
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dmiller
Notta -- No.
John Juedes' site gave me the first real glimpse of the *truth*, behind the *mystique*.
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Larry N Moore
No, I haven't forgotten it. Your version of it doesn't mesh with mine.
Well, seeing as this is not the doctrinal forum I am somewhat limited in how I may respond to this but I will say this much -- What you're saying is -- Jesus' doctrine was phony.
How long has it been since you ceased being a follower of Jesus? Or were you never a follower?
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johniam
quote: Before seeing any death certificates or anything else on the internet, did anyone here know that VPW died of cancer? Where I was, we were NEVER told what sickness caused his death.
I was told that he died of cancer by a twig cordo in Grand Rapids, MI. This guy had been an accountant at HQ for 9 years, including at the time of VPs death. Can't remember exactly when he told us. It wasn't part of a fellowship; it was informal. The guy was talking and a few of us were in the room. He said that when VP had his eye removed in late 1983 that Fritz Weingarner told VP about the tumor and gave him max 5 years to live.
quote: John -- Ok -- I can see how you might think that. And I ain't a'gonna argue.
BUT ---- the *thrust* of this thread is STILL what Rascal asked in the first place.
Why didn't twi get together prayer for docvic, when he needed it *the most*???
Just because they didn't have the whole ministry pray doesn't mean they didn't have select individuals pray. As I said, they probably handled it the way VP wanted them to handle it. It is speculation to infer that they only cared for themselves; we really don't know.
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