Might as well bring this thread along on one more point.
Revelation 2:13 “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is:”
What is Satan’s seat? It would be NOT doing the things the new testament commands; such as: Allowing fornication and adultery and covetousness which is Idolatry to go unconfessed and dealt with, or simply just permissively doing it.
One example might be the alleged romantic relationship/affair between John McCain and Vicki Iseman. If true, then Satan would have a seat in government, because unscrupulous fellows could control John McCain.
What does all this have to do with Calvinism? Calvinism is a permissive doctrine by design, and has no safeguards other than a tulip to move its followers along. Thus, it is effectively his SEAT.
I am bringing this thread to the top because Time Magazine has stated that "New Calvinism" is the third most powerful idea of the ten most powerful ideas changing the world in the country today.
I hope this link works. If not, just Google new Calvinism and you can get it.
We are starting a church plant (again) and the young pastor seems to be quite influenced by some of the individuals cited in the article, specifically the individual who has the big church on the west coast. I won't name him here because I don't want someone from the church to Google his name and pick up my post. M**k Dr**c*l.
Anyway, I find this guy very alarming. He sounds to me like a "thug for Jesus" or something.
Frankly, I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, though I will attempt to do so later today. However, I'm sure some of you know a lot more about this stuff than I do; it does sound to me like you can be saved, have Christ as your savior, and still be on the "B" list and go to hell.
I am a Methodist at heart. I go to this church to keep my marriage and family together. I recently joined Faceb**k and our pastor keeps bringing up the above named individual and Spurgeon and stuff like that.
If this Calvinist stuff is true, I'm probably on the B list anyway. It sounds like you could be on the very short, elect A list, be a ho', smoke crack, rob banks, never get saved and go to heaven simply because you've got the A ticket.
I am probably going to drop F*ceB**k because this stuff is bothering me so much. Between worrying about which list I'm on and watching "24" last night, I hardly slept at all.
I am bringing this thread to the top because Time Magazine has stated that "New Calvinism" is the third most powerful idea of the ten most powerful ideas changing the world in the country today.
I hope this link works. If not, just Google new Calvinism and you can get it.
We are starting a church plant (again) and the young pastor seems to be quite influenced by some of the individuals cited in the article, specifically the individual who has the big church on the west coast. I won't name him here because I don't want someone from the church to Google his name and pick up my post. M**k Dr**c*l.
Anyway, I find this guy very alarming. He sounds to me like a "thug for Jesus" or something.
Frankly, I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, though I will attempt to do so later today. However, I'm sure some of you know a lot more about this stuff than I do; it does sound to me like you can be saved, have Christ as your savior, and still be on the "B" list and go to hell.
I am a Methodist at heart. I go to this church to keep my marriage and family together. I recently joined Faceb**k and our pastor keeps bringing up the above named individual and Spurgeon and stuff like that.
If this Calvinist stuff is true, I'm probably on the B list anyway. It sounds like you could be on the very short, elect A list, be a ho', smoke crack, rob banks, never get saved and go to heaven simply because you've got the A ticket.
I am probably going to drop F*ceB**k because this stuff is bothering me so much. Between worrying about which list I'm on and watching "24" last night, I hardly slept at all.
WG
WG,
The Pastor you mentioned Mark D, has a mouth on him. He is alarming in many ways. NOT my favorite Pastor!! He and J Macarthur need to be taken small doses. I have the same issues with them.
Don't get to worried about them. They can be great for ex-way to help snap them out of easy believeism, but if you listen to them too much they can make you feel like you will NEVER be good enough. . . and. . . .isn't that the point???
I went through this same thing. . . and from these same Calvinist preachers. . . I do have to say. . . I love Spurgeon though. . . if you read him he doesn't sound so much like these guys.
Phil Johnson is another one you might hear about. . . He has the "Pyromanics" blog which houses a great deal of Spurgeon's work.
Please don't let it bother you too much. It will start to drive you crazy. Listen to your instincts on this one.
I do think they are good guys, but small doses. . . very small doses.
So true, isn't it? I've gotten to the point where I tend to pull in the opposite direction, something Mr. Garden doesn't understand. He just believes what he knows the Bible says and doesn't worry too much about this other stuff.
I'm just very up and down with this plant is my problem. I love the people there. The last dozen or so sermons from this young pastor have been awesome.
I will say one thing for the West Coast Wonder: I've lived in that area, and anyone who can successfully plant a church there is doing something right. But I think he needs to beware; he is as susceptible to sin as the next human being and not above any of the things that tempt the rest of us.
"The oldest of five, son of a union drywaller, Driscoll was raised Roman Catholic in a rough neighborhood on the outskirts of Seattle. In high school, he met a pretty blond pastor’s daughter named — providentially — Grace. She gave him his first Bible. He read voraciously and was born again at 19. “God talked to me,” Driscoll says. “He told me to marry Grace, preach the Bible, to plant churches and train men.” He married Grace (with whom he now has five children) and, at 25, founded Mars Hill."
"Nowhere is the connection between Driscoll’s hypermasculinity and his Calvinist theology clearer than in his refusal to tolerate opposition at Mars Hill. The Reformed tradition’s resistance to compromise and emphasis on the purity of the worshipping community has always contained the seeds of authoritarianism: John Calvin had heretics burned at the stake and made a man who casually criticized him at a dinner party march through the streets of Geneva, kneeling at every intersection to beg forgiveness. Mars Hill is not 16th-century Geneva, but Driscoll has little patience for dissent. In 2007, two elders protested a plan to reorganize the church that, according to critics, consolidated power in the hands of Driscoll and his closest aides. Driscoll told the congregation that he asked advice on how to handle stubborn subordinates from a “mixed martial artist and Ultimate Fighter, good guy” who attends Mars Hill. “His answer was brilliant,” Driscoll reported. “He said, ‘I break their nose.’ ” When one of the renegade elders refused to repent, the church leadership ordered members to shun him. One member complained on an online message board and instantly found his membership privileges suspended. “They are sinning through questioning,” Driscoll preached. John Calvin couldn’t have said it better himself."
Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, took a dramatic stand against girly men at a Pastor’s Conference in Houston last week.
The conference, called “re:tool and re:load,” previously billed as “jesus 2.0,” featured speakers from around the country with the stated focus of “Making the Gospel and Missiology Relevant to Post Modern Culture.” Speaking at the last session of the conference, Driscoll focused his three-and-a-half-hour talk on the need for pastors to be more alpha.
“The problem with our churches today is that the lead pastor is some sissy boy who wears cardigan sweaters, has The Carpenters dialed in on his iPod, gets his hair cut at a salon instead of a barber shop, hasn’t been to an Ultimate Fighting match, works out on an elliptical machine instead of going to isolated regions of Russia like in Rocky IV in order to harvest lumber with his teeth, and generally swishes around like Jack from Three’s Company whenever Mr. Roper was around.”
“At last year’s Converging Conference, Driscoll talked about standing up when you .... and I got really excited. We started a men’s-only Bible Accountability Group. It was a combination of scripture study and Muy Thai Stick Fighting. It was great for a few weeks, until my worship pastor lost an eye. I had to make a tough call then and there: no more Muy Thai Stick Fighting at Kiona Community without protective face gear. I still think it might have been a spiritual compromise.”
In Houston, Driscoll was intent on making absolutely clear that he is in favor of masculinity. At the 2 hour, 15 minute mark, he invited five pastors from the audience to take the stage, put his hands behind his back, stuck out his chin, and said, “Hit me with your best shot. Go on. I won’t hit you back. I want to show everyone what this is all about.” When none of the five took a swing, Driscoll had them escorted from the building and proceeded to hit himself five times.
“This is what being a pastor is about, guys. If you can’t handle it, go back to teaching yoga or playing My Little Pony with the other girls.”
The rest of the session followed the same general tone, with Driscoll ridiculing insulated coffee cups, haiku and dental floss as feminine while extolling athletic cups, tobacco spit and broken load-bearing bones as being “essential for a pastor.”
Mark D. get's himself in alot of trouble with his mouth. Other Pastors often "reprove" him for his language and approach, but he does have some good points. . . like when he rips into cults! LOL
There was someone in the article that is pretty good to read. John Piper. I like his stuff on the attributes of God. . . but I just don't think I could ever get behind just "one" teacher or an one entire faith again.
I do like Reformed Theology. . . so interesting.
I pick some from here and some from there. . . . there are some wonderful teachers and preachers around.
MarkD just isn't one I can take for more than a few minutes at a time. . . you are right. . . that mouth reminds me of LCM.
Controversial approach to doctrine, charismatic leader, insistence in absolute obedience, consequences for critical thinking, ostracizing the non-compliant, etc., etc.----
Sure sounds like it has a lot of the right ingredients for a cult.
(Not that I've ever seen one up close or anything. )
I bet if I ever hit him in the nose with MY best shot, he'd cry like a baby!
Hey, since this guy thinks he's such a testosterone-soaked macho guy, maybe he could be in an ultimate fight with LCM.
The loser would have to carry the winner's jock strap through the streets of the winner's hometown.
(that comment because LCM told Family WC 20 "There's not a one of you who is worthy of the privilege of carrying my jock strap." Yes he did, and I just wished I'd had the nerve to jump out of my seat, throw both hands in the air and shout "THANK YOU JESUS!"
... and coming from a guy who _behaves_ like one? :unsure:
Pot, meet kettle. <_<
Ohh by the way, how many 'cultic' characteristics does Reformed Theology (ie., Calvinism) portray, hhmmmm? ... Ever consider that?
Well yeah, I do consider that. Not too too many from my POV. . . Hyper-Calvinism is another story, but, as a Christian I may have a differing definition of cult than you. Anything taken to the extreme can be cult like.
Calvinism is in opposition to Arminianism, which I also find interesting.
I said I was interested in Reformed Theology. . . not sold out to it. I am not a Calvinist per se, but do agree with some things.
I am not sure where I stand on predestination and total depravity. . .but, I am interested in the sovereign nature of God and His attributes, so that is why I like Reformed Theology. I have some Calvinist leanings. . .
I read the Puritans too. . . I am not a Puritan? At least last time I checked. :) (Calvinists with big buckles.)
Not sure if you got a chance to read this thread from the start. It was a really good conversation for awhile between polite and informed posters. I actually got a lot out of it. . . although I didn't agree with some of the things said. . . it was impressive the way the posters respected each other without sarcasm and "hit and run" posting.
It did deteriorate near the end. . . some name calling. . . etc. etc. . . .
I hope it helps to answer some of the questions you have. MarkD. . . as I said. . . listen to your intincts. However, if you want to listen or read others your Pastor may be influenced by, there are some good teachers to read.
If you are concerned about your Pastor, (and if he is really into Driscoll I would be) maybe, you should approach him.
With your life experience, maybe you are the perfect person to send up a warning. A red flag.
I really don't know about his theology, but his language and attitude is uncceptable. My hubby and I were discussing this yesterday. He is also familar with M Dris. . . and he pointed out some WORSE things that Drisc. . has said.
Hubby brought up a good point. . . .Romans 14 speaks to behavior, and Driscoll. . . is obviously violating the idea of offending the weaker brother, judging, and causing him to stumble, by setting up himself and his Alpha male standard as what a Pastor or man should be. . .
The Kingdom of God is not about what meat you eat or don't eat. . . .or anything like that, one conscience may allow this another may not. . . but, it is God working in people. If the source of unity is Driscoll's example. . . we don't have unity. . . we have every male being Alpha or looked down upon if not.
We are to depend upon the work of the Spirit for all the help we need. . . . and renounce self-reliance. That is what pleases God and extends His kingdom in the church and manifests it to the world.
Now God is able to work in us what is pleasing in His sight. . . differing people. . . differing strengths. God is the giver . . . not us. . . He supplies what we need to serve Him, not us all being Alpha males???
Good luck with your Pastor, I hope he is meek and hears you. It is EXCELLENT you have questioned this. . . that is why we are all different. . . your conscience and your experience can be really helpful here.
Maybe this is how your cult experience helps. . . you can smell it a mile away!!
You know, in my situation, I really cannot imagine this guy doing any of the stuff MD does. He is a genuinely nice person. I don't think he would object a bit if he knew the VERY masculine Mr. Garden loves to work out on one of those elliptical thingys. He does agree that only men must be elders, but that a few good women may be considered as deacons. I think most of the younger women work at least part time.
I guess one thing that really bothers me and I don't honestly know if it's part of New Calvinism or not - from reading of the beliefs of J. Calvin himself it would seem to be, but it's the involvement in every miniscule part of each individual's life that really would set me off. The two areas in my life that are nobody's business unless I ask for help are my bank account and my bedroom. MD seems inordinately interested in at least the latter, from some of the stuff I've read he's said. Now in all fairness I don't have any interest in his blogs or his sermons unless I have to, but still, shades of TWI2 and LCM.
I don't understand how these New Calvinists can talk about grace and redemption, when at the same time they believe that God already put everybody on either the "A" list, where you go to heaven no matter how bad you are, or whether or not you are "saved," and the "B" list, where if you are saved you still go to hell because God determined before the foundations of the earth that you were to roast for all eternity, saved or unsaved. Doesn't this kind of contradict a few Scriptures?
Our pastor will I think eventually weed out the older, more mature folks who are not "missional" whatever that means, and replace us (or at least me) with younger, more enthusiastic, and thus more easily influenced followers. Honestly, I think he is looking for TWI of the early 1970s when everyone was young and "blessed" and eager to serve. Or maybe not.
M**k Dr***ol reminds me of a combination of the two worst cult leaders I've ever known. inspirational and charismatic, but down and dirty at the same time. He's M&A people who disagree with him, says it's a sin to question him. I would probably last all of ten minutes in his church. Been there done that. And now I can smell a load of bulldang 50 miles this side of NK.
And another thing: Why are these guys "missional" seeking out the lost if the die has already been cast and they are predestinated to go to heaven or hell anyway? Why bother? Even if someone on the "B" list gets saved, they're still gonna roast! And if someone is on the "A" list they are going to heaven no matter what.
Last time I checked, Methodists are Christians too. Although I appreciate the high view of God in Reformed theology, I too have a problem with this. It really can get ugly, so I hope other than to get miffed, it doesn't upset you.
I went through this as well, and it can really be upsetting. There are people like RC Sproul and even Spurgeon who explain it in a better way.
I just know you can only take some of these guys in small doses.
I think in the end, we give God the glory for Him finding us, since He is the iniator of all things. Here is the thing. . . you are found. . . right?
I can understand getting offended, I just don't want it to worry you too much.
Geisha
Here is a bit by RC Sproul who I enjoy reading sometimes. . . might help.
When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.
Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.
Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.
The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in.
As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically.
The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.
Okay. I'm very tired but I guess the one thing I heard someone say about predestination that really really bothered me was this.
We were discussing in some after service church meeting and the subject came up that God predestines every thing that happens in your life after the good pleasure of His will. Everything without exception is from God. God only gives good gifts, therefore everything that happens is good.
You get a promotion at work! Praise God for He arranged this.
Your two year old child is hit by a car and killed. Praise God for He arranged this.
This woman had recently had bilateral mastectomies for breast cancer. She stated that she believed God predestined her to have breast cancer and she knew He gave it to her for a blessing and she was soooooo thankful she had cancer because she had LEARNED SO MUCH. I worked in a cancer hospital for 9 years. Cancer is sure as heck not a blessing from God.
This totally obviates the devil. There is no devil because God gives you death, disease, hurt and pain, after the pleasure of His own will? Come on, that's not the God I know and love.
I thought she might have brain mets when she said that.
I have insulin dependent diabetes. Now TWI said I had sinned. This woman says I have been blessed and must be thankful for the gift of a disease that will surely kill me.
I say it is genetic. I say I have learned a little bit of how to take care of myself and maybe some discipline (but not enough) but I think God could teach me to be more selfdisciplined without killing me in the process.
Look, my own son has done a lot of mean hurtful things to me. He doesn't listen to me. He doesn't do my will and never has, at least not since he hit puberty. But I don't think he's going to learn anything by me giving him cancer or killing his baby.
But then, I'm probably on the B list so why should I care? Saved, trying to do God's will but predestined to rot in hell anyway.
Well, if you are on the B list, I am right there with you. I am not good enough either and that is why I need a Savior.
If my hope is in this life only. . . I am going to be pretty miserable.
Trials often reveal a faith that is lacking. They build endurance. Read James. . . we are to be thankful for them.
In Job, he went through all that horror. . . but in the end what is it he said? "I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you."
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."
I guess in a way, it just depends on what we really want. . . and how much we want it. . . . it doesn't come cheap. . . knowing God by faith. . . there is a price.
No one likes trials. . . but we can be thankful for what they teach us. Very thankful and actually rejoice in them because we know God will deliver and teach. God is not the author of evil, but who says He can't use it for good?
Who knows what it takes to bring us to true saving faith or repentance? I do know God is sovereign. . . able. . . and His ways are past finding out sometimes.
Anything taken to extreme is kinda crazy. You get sick. . . you pray for healing, and God is able in all ways to heal us.
We are refined by fire. Revelation3 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
God is sovereign. . . Nothing gets past Him IMHO. I guess people take it to extreme. . . . cancer is a bad thing. . . a sick or dying child is a life altering horrible thing. . . but God is able to turn all bad to good and His glory. . . don't you agree with that?
Who said we wouldn't have suffering in this life? Certainly not God. . . He said to count the cost before you believe. BUT, it isn't all about suffering. . . it is about rejoicing in Him who is able.
******We can't think our problems are too big for God. . . all this has to be in context of the gospel, that the whole purpose is Jesus Christ. . . . Hebrews 4: 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Jesus feels WITH us not against us!! He is in this with us. These trials can be so that we will come to Him. Our confidence is in Him.
The purpose of trials is to come to Him. . . . NOT ashamed.
It is all going to sound pretty bad unless Jesus is in His proper place in our lives. . . it is going to frustrate and hurt unless we really know Jesus.
We are to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. . . that is why Driscoll is so off. . . We can't boast or glory in anything except the symbol of humiliation. . . the cross!!
Make sense?? His strength is made perfect in our weakness. . . including our weakness to understand the deep things of God.
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GarthP2000
And Calvin and his mindset was the 'Honey Wagon'.
Mark Clarke
God doesn't cause the problems, but He does allow them, because He is God and He is in charge. That is comforting to me, because it assures me that nothing is beyond His control. But He doesn't allo
Cynic
My-my! What wild flailings at the doctrine of unconditional election. You have struck only a few “hyper-Calvinists” (e.g. some Primitive Baptists), who reputedly held election to work salvation in s
sky4it
Might as well bring this thread along on one more point.
Revelation 2:13 “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is:”
What is Satan’s seat? It would be NOT doing the things the new testament commands; such as: Allowing fornication and adultery and covetousness which is Idolatry to go unconfessed and dealt with, or simply just permissively doing it.
One example might be the alleged romantic relationship/affair between John McCain and Vicki Iseman. If true, then Satan would have a seat in government, because unscrupulous fellows could control John McCain.
What does all this have to do with Calvinism? Calvinism is a permissive doctrine by design, and has no safeguards other than a tulip to move its followers along. Thus, it is effectively his SEAT.
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Watered Garden
I am bringing this thread to the top because Time Magazine has stated that "New Calvinism" is the third most powerful idea of the ten most powerful ideas changing the world in the country today.
www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html
I hope this link works. If not, just Google new Calvinism and you can get it.
We are starting a church plant (again) and the young pastor seems to be quite influenced by some of the individuals cited in the article, specifically the individual who has the big church on the west coast. I won't name him here because I don't want someone from the church to Google his name and pick up my post. M**k Dr**c*l.
Anyway, I find this guy very alarming. He sounds to me like a "thug for Jesus" or something.
Frankly, I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, though I will attempt to do so later today. However, I'm sure some of you know a lot more about this stuff than I do; it does sound to me like you can be saved, have Christ as your savior, and still be on the "B" list and go to hell.
I am a Methodist at heart. I go to this church to keep my marriage and family together. I recently joined Faceb**k and our pastor keeps bringing up the above named individual and Spurgeon and stuff like that.
If this Calvinist stuff is true, I'm probably on the B list anyway. It sounds like you could be on the very short, elect A list, be a ho', smoke crack, rob banks, never get saved and go to heaven simply because you've got the A ticket.
I am probably going to drop F*ceB**k because this stuff is bothering me so much. Between worrying about which list I'm on and watching "24" last night, I hardly slept at all.
WG
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geisha779
WG,
The Pastor you mentioned Mark D, has a mouth on him. He is alarming in many ways. NOT my favorite Pastor!! He and J Macarthur need to be taken small doses. I have the same issues with them.
Don't get to worried about them. They can be great for ex-way to help snap them out of easy believeism, but if you listen to them too much they can make you feel like you will NEVER be good enough. . . and. . . .isn't that the point???
I went through this same thing. . . and from these same Calvinist preachers. . . I do have to say. . . I love Spurgeon though. . . if you read him he doesn't sound so much like these guys.
Phil Johnson is another one you might hear about. . . He has the "Pyromanics" blog which houses a great deal of Spurgeon's work.
Please don't let it bother you too much. It will start to drive you crazy. Listen to your instincts on this one.
I do think they are good guys, but small doses. . . very small doses.
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waysider
Here's your link, WG.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages...0,00.html?imw=Y
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Watered Garden
"Easy believeism" - I love it!
So true, isn't it? I've gotten to the point where I tend to pull in the opposite direction, something Mr. Garden doesn't understand. He just believes what he knows the Bible says and doesn't worry too much about this other stuff.
I'm just very up and down with this plant is my problem. I love the people there. The last dozen or so sermons from this young pastor have been awesome.
I will say one thing for the West Coast Wonder: I've lived in that area, and anyone who can successfully plant a church there is doing something right. But I think he needs to beware; he is as susceptible to sin as the next human being and not above any of the things that tempt the rest of us.
In some ways he reminds me of LCM.
WG
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waysider
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html
"The oldest of five, son of a union drywaller, Driscoll was raised Roman Catholic in a rough neighborhood on the outskirts of Seattle. In high school, he met a pretty blond pastor’s daughter named — providentially — Grace. She gave him his first Bible. He read voraciously and was born again at 19. “God talked to me,” Driscoll says. “He told me to marry Grace, preach the Bible, to plant churches and train men.” He married Grace (with whom he now has five children) and, at 25, founded Mars Hill."
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Watered Garden
Emphasis on men. They are quite firm in their belief that a woman's place is in the home.
I always did think, though, that a woman's place was in the house - and in the Senate! :lol: :blink:
wg
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waysider
"Nowhere is the connection between Driscoll’s hypermasculinity and his Calvinist theology clearer than in his refusal to tolerate opposition at Mars Hill. The Reformed tradition’s resistance to compromise and emphasis on the purity of the worshipping community has always contained the seeds of authoritarianism: John Calvin had heretics burned at the stake and made a man who casually criticized him at a dinner party march through the streets of Geneva, kneeling at every intersection to beg forgiveness. Mars Hill is not 16th-century Geneva, but Driscoll has little patience for dissent. In 2007, two elders protested a plan to reorganize the church that, according to critics, consolidated power in the hands of Driscoll and his closest aides. Driscoll told the congregation that he asked advice on how to handle stubborn subordinates from a “mixed martial artist and Ultimate Fighter, good guy” who attends Mars Hill. “His answer was brilliant,” Driscoll reported. “He said, ‘I break their nose.’ ” When one of the renegade elders refused to repent, the church leadership ordered members to shun him. One member complained on an online message board and instantly found his membership privileges suspended. “They are sinning through questioning,” Driscoll preached. John Calvin couldn’t have said it better himself."
(same source)
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Watered Garden
Scary guy. When when I lived on the left coast, at least they didn't burn people at the stake...probably just took away their latte'.
But you see what I mean? It's all about him.
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waysider
http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/driscoll-kicks-own-foot
Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, took a dramatic stand against girly men at a Pastor’s Conference in Houston last week.
The conference, called “re:tool and re:load,” previously billed as “jesus 2.0,” featured speakers from around the country with the stated focus of “Making the Gospel and Missiology Relevant to Post Modern Culture.” Speaking at the last session of the conference, Driscoll focused his three-and-a-half-hour talk on the need for pastors to be more alpha.
“The problem with our churches today is that the lead pastor is some sissy boy who wears cardigan sweaters, has The Carpenters dialed in on his iPod, gets his hair cut at a salon instead of a barber shop, hasn’t been to an Ultimate Fighting match, works out on an elliptical machine instead of going to isolated regions of Russia like in Rocky IV in order to harvest lumber with his teeth, and generally swishes around like Jack from Three’s Company whenever Mr. Roper was around.”
“At last year’s Converging Conference, Driscoll talked about standing up when you .... and I got really excited. We started a men’s-only Bible Accountability Group. It was a combination of scripture study and Muy Thai Stick Fighting. It was great for a few weeks, until my worship pastor lost an eye. I had to make a tough call then and there: no more Muy Thai Stick Fighting at Kiona Community without protective face gear. I still think it might have been a spiritual compromise.”
In Houston, Driscoll was intent on making absolutely clear that he is in favor of masculinity. At the 2 hour, 15 minute mark, he invited five pastors from the audience to take the stage, put his hands behind his back, stuck out his chin, and said, “Hit me with your best shot. Go on. I won’t hit you back. I want to show everyone what this is all about.” When none of the five took a swing, Driscoll had them escorted from the building and proceeded to hit himself five times.
“This is what being a pastor is about, guys. If you can’t handle it, go back to teaching yoga or playing My Little Pony with the other girls.”
The rest of the session followed the same general tone, with Driscoll ridiculing insulated coffee cups, haiku and dental floss as feminine while extolling athletic cups, tobacco spit and broken load-bearing bones as being “essential for a pastor.”
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geisha779
WG,
Mark D. get's himself in alot of trouble with his mouth. Other Pastors often "reprove" him for his language and approach, but he does have some good points. . . like when he rips into cults! LOL
There was someone in the article that is pretty good to read. John Piper. I like his stuff on the attributes of God. . . but I just don't think I could ever get behind just "one" teacher or an one entire faith again.
I do like Reformed Theology. . . so interesting.
I pick some from here and some from there. . . . there are some wonderful teachers and preachers around.
MarkD just isn't one I can take for more than a few minutes at a time. . . you are right. . . that mouth reminds me of LCM.
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GarthP2000
... and coming from a guy who _behaves_ like one? :unsure:
Pot, meet kettle. <_<
Ohh by the way, how many 'cultic' characteristics does Reformed Theology (ie., Calvinism) portray, hhmmmm? ... Ever consider that?
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waysider
Controversial approach to doctrine, charismatic leader, insistence in absolute obedience, consequences for critical thinking, ostracizing the non-compliant, etc., etc.----
Sure sounds like it has a lot of the right ingredients for a cult.
(Not that I've ever seen one up close or anything.
)
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Watered Garden
I bet if I ever hit him in the nose with MY best shot, he'd cry like a baby!
Hey, since this guy thinks he's such a testosterone-soaked macho guy, maybe he could be in an ultimate fight with LCM.
The loser would have to carry the winner's jock strap through the streets of the winner's hometown.
(that comment because LCM told Family WC 20 "There's not a one of you who is worthy of the privilege of carrying my jock strap." Yes he did, and I just wished I'd had the nerve to jump out of my seat, throw both hands in the air and shout "THANK YOU JESUS!"
WG
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geisha779
Well yeah, I do consider that. Not too too many from my POV. . . Hyper-Calvinism is another story, but, as a Christian I may have a differing definition of cult than you. Anything taken to the extreme can be cult like.
Calvinism is in opposition to Arminianism, which I also find interesting.
I said I was interested in Reformed Theology. . . not sold out to it. I am not a Calvinist per se, but do agree with some things.
I am not sure where I stand on predestination and total depravity. . .but, I am interested in the sovereign nature of God and His attributes, so that is why I like Reformed Theology. I have some Calvinist leanings. . .
I read the Puritans too. . . I am not a Puritan? At least last time I checked. :) (Calvinists with big buckles.)
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Mark Clarke
You mean like killing dissenters and heretics?
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geisha779
WG,
Not sure if you got a chance to read this thread from the start. It was a really good conversation for awhile between polite and informed posters. I actually got a lot out of it. . . although I didn't agree with some of the things said. . . it was impressive the way the posters respected each other without sarcasm and "hit and run" posting.
It did deteriorate near the end. . . some name calling. . . etc. etc. . . .
I hope it helps to answer some of the questions you have. MarkD. . . as I said. . . listen to your intincts. However, if you want to listen or read others your Pastor may be influenced by, there are some good teachers to read.
If you are concerned about your Pastor, (and if he is really into Driscoll I would be) maybe, you should approach him.
With your life experience, maybe you are the perfect person to send up a warning. A red flag.
I really don't know about his theology, but his language and attitude is uncceptable. My hubby and I were discussing this yesterday. He is also familar with M Dris. . . and he pointed out some WORSE things that Drisc. . has said.
Hubby brought up a good point. . . .Romans 14 speaks to behavior, and Driscoll. . . is obviously violating the idea of offending the weaker brother, judging, and causing him to stumble, by setting up himself and his Alpha male standard as what a Pastor or man should be. . .
The Kingdom of God is not about what meat you eat or don't eat. . . .or anything like that, one conscience may allow this another may not. . . but, it is God working in people. If the source of unity is Driscoll's example. . . we don't have unity. . . we have every male being Alpha or looked down upon if not.
We are to depend upon the work of the Spirit for all the help we need. . . . and renounce self-reliance. That is what pleases God and extends His kingdom in the church and manifests it to the world.
Now God is able to work in us what is pleasing in His sight. . . differing people. . . differing strengths. God is the giver . . . not us. . . He supplies what we need to serve Him, not us all being Alpha males???
Good luck with your Pastor, I hope he is meek and hears you. It is EXCELLENT you have questioned this. . . that is why we are all different. . . your conscience and your experience can be really helpful here.
Maybe this is how your cult experience helps. . . you can smell it a mile away!!
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Watered Garden
You know, in my situation, I really cannot imagine this guy doing any of the stuff MD does. He is a genuinely nice person. I don't think he would object a bit if he knew the VERY masculine Mr. Garden loves to work out on one of those elliptical thingys. He does agree that only men must be elders, but that a few good women may be considered as deacons. I think most of the younger women work at least part time.
I guess one thing that really bothers me and I don't honestly know if it's part of New Calvinism or not - from reading of the beliefs of J. Calvin himself it would seem to be, but it's the involvement in every miniscule part of each individual's life that really would set me off. The two areas in my life that are nobody's business unless I ask for help are my bank account and my bedroom. MD seems inordinately interested in at least the latter, from some of the stuff I've read he's said. Now in all fairness I don't have any interest in his blogs or his sermons unless I have to, but still, shades of TWI2 and LCM.
We'll see.
WG
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waysider
Religion can be a big and profitable business.
M. Dr!sc@ll has a very large inventory of product to satisfy his customers.
Here is an Amazon link with 69 products for potential customers.
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search...coll&page=1
His interests in "planting" and growth certainly seem to be vested.
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Watered Garden
I think I'm a Methodist at heart.
I don't understand how these New Calvinists can talk about grace and redemption, when at the same time they believe that God already put everybody on either the "A" list, where you go to heaven no matter how bad you are, or whether or not you are "saved," and the "B" list, where if you are saved you still go to hell because God determined before the foundations of the earth that you were to roast for all eternity, saved or unsaved. Doesn't this kind of contradict a few Scriptures?
Our pastor will I think eventually weed out the older, more mature folks who are not "missional" whatever that means, and replace us (or at least me) with younger, more enthusiastic, and thus more easily influenced followers. Honestly, I think he is looking for TWI of the early 1970s when everyone was young and "blessed" and eager to serve. Or maybe not.
M**k Dr***ol reminds me of a combination of the two worst cult leaders I've ever known. inspirational and charismatic, but down and dirty at the same time. He's M&A people who disagree with him, says it's a sin to question him. I would probably last all of ten minutes in his church. Been there done that. And now I can smell a load of bulldang 50 miles this side of NK.
WG
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Watered Garden
And another thing: Why are these guys "missional" seeking out the lost if the die has already been cast and they are predestinated to go to heaven or hell anyway? Why bother? Even if someone on the "B" list gets saved, they're still gonna roast! And if someone is on the "A" list they are going to heaven no matter what.
WG
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geisha779
WG,
Last time I checked, Methodists are Christians too. Although I appreciate the high view of God in Reformed theology, I too have a problem with this. It really can get ugly, so I hope other than to get miffed, it doesn't upset you.
I went through this as well, and it can really be upsetting. There are people like RC Sproul and even Spurgeon who explain it in a better way.
I just know you can only take some of these guys in small doses.
I think in the end, we give God the glory for Him finding us, since He is the iniator of all things. Here is the thing. . . you are found. . . right?
I can understand getting offended, I just don't want it to worry you too much.
Geisha
Here is a bit by RC Sproul who I enjoy reading sometimes. . . might help.
When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.
Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.
Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.
The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in.
As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically.
The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.
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Watered Garden
Okay. I'm very tired but I guess the one thing I heard someone say about predestination that really really bothered me was this.
We were discussing in some after service church meeting and the subject came up that God predestines every thing that happens in your life after the good pleasure of His will. Everything without exception is from God. God only gives good gifts, therefore everything that happens is good.
You get a promotion at work! Praise God for He arranged this.
Your two year old child is hit by a car and killed. Praise God for He arranged this.
This woman had recently had bilateral mastectomies for breast cancer. She stated that she believed God predestined her to have breast cancer and she knew He gave it to her for a blessing and she was soooooo thankful she had cancer because she had LEARNED SO MUCH. I worked in a cancer hospital for 9 years. Cancer is sure as heck not a blessing from God.
This totally obviates the devil. There is no devil because God gives you death, disease, hurt and pain, after the pleasure of His own will? Come on, that's not the God I know and love.
I thought she might have brain mets when she said that.
I have insulin dependent diabetes. Now TWI said I had sinned. This woman says I have been blessed and must be thankful for the gift of a disease that will surely kill me.
I say it is genetic. I say I have learned a little bit of how to take care of myself and maybe some discipline (but not enough) but I think God could teach me to be more selfdisciplined without killing me in the process.
Look, my own son has done a lot of mean hurtful things to me. He doesn't listen to me. He doesn't do my will and never has, at least not since he hit puberty. But I don't think he's going to learn anything by me giving him cancer or killing his baby.
But then, I'm probably on the B list so why should I care? Saved, trying to do God's will but predestined to rot in hell anyway.
WG
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geisha779
Well, if you are on the B list, I am right there with you. I am not good enough either and that is why I need a Savior.
If my hope is in this life only. . . I am going to be pretty miserable.
Trials often reveal a faith that is lacking. They build endurance. Read James. . . we are to be thankful for them.
In Job, he went through all that horror. . . but in the end what is it he said? "I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you."
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."
I guess in a way, it just depends on what we really want. . . and how much we want it. . . . it doesn't come cheap. . . knowing God by faith. . . there is a price.
No one likes trials. . . but we can be thankful for what they teach us. Very thankful and actually rejoice in them because we know God will deliver and teach. God is not the author of evil, but who says He can't use it for good?
Who knows what it takes to bring us to true saving faith or repentance? I do know God is sovereign. . . able. . . and His ways are past finding out sometimes.
Anything taken to extreme is kinda crazy. You get sick. . . you pray for healing, and God is able in all ways to heal us.
We are refined by fire. Revelation3 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
God is sovereign. . . Nothing gets past Him IMHO. I guess people take it to extreme. . . . cancer is a bad thing. . . a sick or dying child is a life altering horrible thing. . . but God is able to turn all bad to good and His glory. . . don't you agree with that?
Who said we wouldn't have suffering in this life? Certainly not God. . . He said to count the cost before you believe. BUT, it isn't all about suffering. . . it is about rejoicing in Him who is able.
******We can't think our problems are too big for God. . . all this has to be in context of the gospel, that the whole purpose is Jesus Christ. . . . Hebrews 4: 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Jesus feels WITH us not against us!! He is in this with us. These trials can be so that we will come to Him. Our confidence is in Him.
The purpose of trials is to come to Him. . . . NOT ashamed.
It is all going to sound pretty bad unless Jesus is in His proper place in our lives. . . it is going to frustrate and hurt unless we really know Jesus.
We are to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. . . that is why Driscoll is so off. . . We can't boast or glory in anything except the symbol of humiliation. . . the cross!!
Make sense?? His strength is made perfect in our weakness. . . including our weakness to understand the deep things of God.
Maybe you really are in the right church??
My humble opinion anyway. :)
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