I experienced it or perceived it somewhat differently. Working in the kitchen, the dishwashing room, the grounds, did not feel demeaning to me. I learned profound lessons that remain with me to this day. On another point you made, the dignity of the individual (what some called "the priesthood of all believers," though we did not) was likewise promoted. Ideas like "the life is in the twig" and indeed, the teaching that it is Christ in you were aimed at attempting to restore things that are godly in the Christian paradigm.
That being said, and since I've come to know you somewhat through your posts, I know you won't let me get away with leaving it at that, and you would be right. Though the Way espoused good ideas, they didn't carry them out very well, at times. Honest biblical research is a biggie. Respect for the individual was another one, as was the work program, I would suppose.
But a very big one you touched on is huge: the so-called Great Mystery. "Our" exclusivism was never even scantily veiled. Sometimes I try to be kind to the memory of VPW, who taught me a lot of things that I still appreciate, I rationalize that he was living in a time when some things simply would not be heard without exaggerating them. But I've given up that rationalization. From the earliest days, even before my involvement starting in 1973, there is a palpable pride in "we know it, and nobody else does," a tradition that is still one of the hallmarks of TWI-2. The teaching of "the Great Mystery" itself is badly misguided, having been one of the Bullinger/dispensationalist ideas that Dr. Wierwille adopted. What Paul really meant in Eph 3 is totally missed in that teaching, as you indicated. (or did you?)
Your condemnation of hypocrisy is commendable. And your view regarding the Church, both "visible" and "invisible" (good theological terms) is likewise appreciated.
What TWI taught on anything is not what was practiced. What a shame.
I think that is an oversimplification...
Many things they taught, they also practiced (ie...all the women in the kingdom belong to the king)...
...the real problem is that most of what they taught was wrong.
As far as Wierwille's teaching on the mystery...Wierwille didn't just "adopt" Bullinger's ideas on dispensationalism, he pretended that those ideas were his own...that's called lying.
I think it's the same concept as when a person wins the lottery...they didn't earn the money themselves and therefore don't really understand or appreciate it as if they worked for it themselves...they oftentimes squander it irresponsibly without a full understanding of the stewardship of it...
Wierwille "taught" that Christ was the head of the body and then promptly declared him absent and placed himself as the head of the church...he was an egotistical phoney.
AnotherDan....I'm glad that you "try to be kind to the memory of VPW", forgive me if I DON'T. He taught that it was "Christ in you" but he never believed it...otherwise he would not have set up a hierarchy that lorded over people through a chain of command...he was a counterfeit and I have absolutely no respect for his memory.
PS...why did he drug and rape young girls who had "Christ in them" also????...The man was a scourge.
As far as Wierwille's teaching on the mystery...Wierwille didn't just "adopt" Bullinger's ideas on dispensationalism, he pretended that those ideas were his own...that's called lying.
I think it's the same concept as when a person wins the lottery...they didn't earn the money themselves and therefore don't really understand or appreciate it as if they worked for it themselves...they oftentimes squander it irresponsibly without a full understanding of the stewardship of it...
Wierwille "taught" that Christ was the head of the body and then promptly declared him absent and placed himself as the head of the church...he was an egotistical phoney.
Groucho.....
Same thing with the holy spirit field.......wierwille got this info from Leonard in 1953.
More "filler" information is included in the '67 pfal class......with 14 more years of studying others' work, but the meat of the pfal class, from Session 8 - 12 is holy spirit field. YET........wierwille exemplifies one who is NOT humbled, or motivated, or empowered by holy spirit. Even his demonstration of speaking in tongues.....after claiming that he himself spoke in tongues much in his private life displayed the repetitive baby-talk of an infant.
If wierwille wasn't GENUINE.......what else did he counterfeit?
Was he an enemy of the cross, as well?..........drawing others unto himself?
Another Dan – thanks for your input. A different perspective is always welcome. When you mentioned "the life is in the twig" I thought back on when I first got involved with TWI. Things were so simple, the fellowship sweet – there was a real love for God and people. As time went on, I saw TWI becomemorerigid…with a more pronounced centralized government….it stifled the life out of twig. This imposing system loomed large enough in areas where I served – that for me it eclipsed the simple enjoyment of loving God and people.
Watered Garden – that's a great quote!!!!! It's odd, isn't it – how individuality can be "stolen." It's like buying something counterfeit. I gave up something of great value [my uniqueness] to conform to a template of the ultimate TWI follower. I remember every time I'd write a song I could count on leadership going over every verse with a fine toothed PFAL comb making lots of changes.
Eagle – yup! I go by the old saying actions speak louder than words. A sermon is only half the message. How a preacher walks the talk can either validate the message or nullify it.
Groucho – you reminded me of one of the first things I began to see after leaving TWI in 86. I was thinking about the Way Tree and began studying any passages that provided a glimpse into church government…I saw a stark contrast between the simple, dynamic and seemingly autonomous churches of the New Testament and the overbearing leadership hierarchy of TWI trying to pump artificial life out to the twigs….Like a weird Frankenstein church – Dr. Frankenstein steals body parts [hijacks the Jesus movement, plagiarizes from real ministers/teachers], puts it all together his way – and provides a head for the monster by using his own. "It's alive! It's alive!"
Doojable – wow….that's an incredible post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In PFAL, right after vpw says "When it comes to the Word I have no friends," I picture Jesus busting onto the set and saying to him "When it comes to my sheep I have no friends!" ….Yeah – I wish we saw that in the original!
Skyrider – "Was he an enemy of the cross, as well?..........drawing others unto himself?" Interesting point! The MacArthur Study Bible has this on that phrase in Philippians 3:18:
"enemies of the cross. Implied in Paul's language is that these men did not claim to oppose Christ, His work on the cross, or salvation by grace through faith alone, but they did not pursue Christlikeness in manifest godliness. Apparently, they were posing as friends of Christ, and possibly had even reached positions of leadership in the church."
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anotherDan
T-Bone
I experienced it or perceived it somewhat differently. Working in the kitchen, the dishwashing room, the grounds, did not feel demeaning to me. I learned profound lessons that remain with me to this day. On another point you made, the dignity of the individual (what some called "the priesthood of all believers," though we did not) was likewise promoted. Ideas like "the life is in the twig" and indeed, the teaching that it is Christ in you were aimed at attempting to restore things that are godly in the Christian paradigm.
That being said, and since I've come to know you somewhat through your posts, I know you won't let me get away with leaving it at that, and you would be right. Though the Way espoused good ideas, they didn't carry them out very well, at times. Honest biblical research is a biggie. Respect for the individual was another one, as was the work program, I would suppose.
But a very big one you touched on is huge: the so-called Great Mystery. "Our" exclusivism was never even scantily veiled. Sometimes I try to be kind to the memory of VPW, who taught me a lot of things that I still appreciate, I rationalize that he was living in a time when some things simply would not be heard without exaggerating them. But I've given up that rationalization. From the earliest days, even before my involvement starting in 1973, there is a palpable pride in "we know it, and nobody else does," a tradition that is still one of the hallmarks of TWI-2. The teaching of "the Great Mystery" itself is badly misguided, having been one of the Bullinger/dispensationalist ideas that Dr. Wierwille adopted. What Paul really meant in Eph 3 is totally missed in that teaching, as you indicated. (or did you?)
Your condemnation of hypocrisy is commendable. And your view regarding the Church, both "visible" and "invisible" (good theological terms) is likewise appreciated.
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Watered Garden
Dunno if this quote fits or not, but it's a doggone good one:
"NOBODY has the right to steal your individuality."
Joyce Meyer
I just had to post that someplace. In light of what TWI did/does to people who love God.
WG
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Eagle
What TWI taught on anything is not what was practiced. What a shame.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that is an oversimplification...
Many things they taught, they also practiced (ie...all the women in the kingdom belong to the king)...
...the real problem is that most of what they taught was wrong.
As far as Wierwille's teaching on the mystery...Wierwille didn't just "adopt" Bullinger's ideas on dispensationalism, he pretended that those ideas were his own...that's called lying.
I think it's the same concept as when a person wins the lottery...they didn't earn the money themselves and therefore don't really understand or appreciate it as if they worked for it themselves...they oftentimes squander it irresponsibly without a full understanding of the stewardship of it...
Wierwille "taught" that Christ was the head of the body and then promptly declared him absent and placed himself as the head of the church...he was an egotistical phoney.
AnotherDan....I'm glad that you "try to be kind to the memory of VPW", forgive me if I DON'T. He taught that it was "Christ in you" but he never believed it...otherwise he would not have set up a hierarchy that lorded over people through a chain of command...he was a counterfeit and I have absolutely no respect for his memory.
PS...why did he drug and rape young girls who had "Christ in them" also????...The man was a scourge.
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doojable
Bingo, Groucho!:
I sat in a Sunday school class for second graders today (I help in that class.) The teaching included Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.
Jesus said, "Why do you persecute ME?"
How many times did we hear that teaching, from VPW himself. He taught that session with"Christ in YOU the hope of GLO-ree!"
BUT - did he take it to heart? Did he realize that when he hurt, defamed, slandered, those his "keeds" that he was doing that to Jesus?
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skyrider
Groucho.....
Same thing with the holy spirit field.......wierwille got this info from Leonard in 1953.
More "filler" information is included in the '67 pfal class......with 14 more years of studying others' work, but the meat of the pfal class, from Session 8 - 12 is holy spirit field. YET........wierwille exemplifies one who is NOT humbled, or motivated, or empowered by holy spirit. Even his demonstration of speaking in tongues.....after claiming that he himself spoke in tongues much in his private life displayed the repetitive baby-talk of an infant.
If wierwille wasn't GENUINE.......what else did he counterfeit?
Was he an enemy of the cross, as well?..........drawing others unto himself?
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T-Bone
Another Dan – thanks for your input. A different perspective is always welcome. When you mentioned "the life is in the twig" I thought back on when I first got involved with TWI. Things were so simple, the fellowship sweet – there was a real love for God and people. As time went on, I saw TWI become more rigid…with a more pronounced centralized government….it stifled the life out of twig. This imposing system loomed large enough in areas where I served – that for me it eclipsed the simple enjoyment of loving God and people.
Watered Garden – that's a great quote!!!!! It's odd, isn't it – how individuality can be "stolen." It's like buying something counterfeit. I gave up something of great value [my uniqueness] to conform to a template of the ultimate TWI follower. I remember every time I'd write a song I could count on leadership going over every verse with a fine toothed PFAL comb making lots of changes.
Eagle – yup! I go by the old saying actions speak louder than words. A sermon is only half the message. How a preacher walks the talk can either validate the message or nullify it.
Groucho – you reminded me of one of the first things I began to see after leaving TWI in 86. I was thinking about the Way Tree and began studying any passages that provided a glimpse into church government…I saw a stark contrast between the simple, dynamic and seemingly autonomous churches of the New Testament and the overbearing leadership hierarchy of TWI trying to pump artificial life out to the twigs….Like a weird Frankenstein church – Dr. Frankenstein steals body parts [hijacks the Jesus movement, plagiarizes from real ministers/teachers], puts it all together his way – and provides a head for the monster by using his own. "It's alive! It's alive!"
Doojable – wow….that's an incredible post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In PFAL, right after vpw says "When it comes to the Word I have no friends," I picture Jesus busting onto the set and saying to him "When it comes to my sheep I have no friends!" ….Yeah – I wish we saw that in the original!
Skyrider – "Was he an enemy of the cross, as well?..........drawing others unto himself?" Interesting point! The MacArthur Study Bible has this on that phrase in Philippians 3:18:
"enemies of the cross. Implied in Paul's language is that these men did not claim to oppose Christ, His work on the cross, or salvation by grace through faith alone, but they did not pursue Christlikeness in manifest godliness. Apparently, they were posing as friends of Christ, and possibly had even reached positions of leadership in the church."
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