I only have a comment, Eagle. TWI was always changing stuff. It was never enough to just "read what was written."
Not two crucified, but four... That gave them a boost, so they seemed to always be setting themselves up as the source of the "real truth for what it REALLY says."
If what I believed was wrong, it would matter to me. Why did you ask that?
All others:
The topic is about the way TWI tried reading into scripture what wasn't there. Then again, E.W. Bullinger did that to some extent. VPW did take that from Bullinger.
Yes, the accuracy of the Word of God does matter to me still.
The cock crow happened several times, the first one after midnight is called the "first cock crow" and the last one at dawn is called the "second cock crow", to help along with night watches, I suppose. But Easton's Bible Dictionary gives pretty good background on it.
I guess from a scholarly, intellectual standpoint it could be interesting. But I have to wonder what bearing it has on how one lives their life today?
I wonder the same thing about 2 v 4 crucified, does it really make a difference in the grander scheme of things? Will it cause me to change the way I think or behave?
Right on Abi. The reason it's not spelled out clearly is because IT DOESN'T MATTER. The number crucified is not the point of the passage, nor is the number of denails the point of the passage. The big point is that all of those picaninny "accuracy of God's Word" studies miss the big point. That's why so many wayfers knew and know quite a bit of holy scripture but are so spiritually shallow and tepid.
The "Six Denials" and "Four Crucified" (and maybe the "Two Entries into Jerusalem") are examples of a flawed "research principle", in my opinion.
Every mention of the denials lists three. Every mention of others crucified lists two. You can't get to six and four by just reading what is written, you can only get there by assuming that differences in detail translate into a total difference.
I've found it all interesting and I do see 4 crucified when the gospels are compared. I have never heard about the 6 times Peter denied Christ -- that is new to me.
I do know there are two seperate stories about the man in the tombs which are very different yet people lump them together.
I've found it all interesting and I do see 4 crucified when the gospels are compared. I have never heard about the 6 times Peter denied Christ -- that is new to me.
I do know there are two seperate stories about the man in the tombs which are very different yet people lump them together.
No offense intended, but you (and all of us who took PFAL) see those gospel records through a PFAL colored lens. Give the same records to anyone without a doctrinal axe to grind and the number will be 2. (IMHO of course...I haven't actually performed this study ) - the 6 denials are explained in much the same manner as 4 crucified, using the supposed "key" of scripture buildup.
Assuming that God wants us to know that there was 4, not 2 crucified with Jesus, why (as Sprawled Out asked in another thread) doesn't God just say that?
I think Juedes has an alternate explanation that's quite plausible on his website, pointing out several of Wierwille's errors. We naturally, as former students of Wierwille's have internalized those errors and hardly realize they're there unless we really push to read the records objectively.
If what I believed was wrong, it would matter to me. Why did you ask that?
Abi's post (immediately following yours) touches upon my reason for asking. I would imagine, like myself and others, you have discovered on many occasions that what you believed turned out to be false. Did it really change much in the way you lived your life? Probably not.
The topic is about the way TWI tried reading into scripture what wasn't there. Then again, E.W. Bullinger did that to some extent. VPW did take that from Bullinger.
Ya know. I don't think I'll ever understand why every doctrinal/theological discussion found on GS always seems to be about what TWI taught. It doesn't matter what they taught -- what matters is what people believe is true. If I believed the Bible says there was six denials I don't have to reference what TWI says in order to discuss it. Another "Let's bash TWI!" feeding frenzy bores me. Somehow I thought the topic was about the accuracy of the Word as it relates to three or six denials. Do carry on and pardon my intrusion.
Larry, I guess what you mean to say that if something is either true or false, if it is true to a person, then it is truth to that person. Right?
Well, that's one way of looking at it. But what I was getting at is -- I'm sure you've believed something to be true only to later discover it wasn't. Did discovering that, really change the way you live your life (for Jesus)? Does accuracy on such issues (as you're presenting here) make or break you?
I still believe in six denials of Peter (as much time as I spend thinking about it, which isn't much) as well as four crucified. I guess I think it's important to demonstrate the inherent accuracy of the Bible (Word), but in the general scheme of things it doesn't affect me much, and I wouldn't find it earthshaking if it wasn't true.
I could see four crucified. That made sense when I took the time to read through it all and sort it out. It doesn't make any difference to me concerning a relationship with God, other than seeing that it's there. The six denials? Now that's a dandy! I never could figure that one out. I just couldn't "see it" as it was explained. I just figured that I was too "grammatically challenged" or whatever to see it. There was something that VP said the Word said. Something like "twice thou shalt deny me thrice", and so, "twice times thrice" equals six. And I guess six denials is worse than three because 6 is the devil's number? That would be better than 3 because 3 means "complete". Yeah, maybe that is why it was important? Never could figure that one out. Maybe VP pointed these things out to prove that there are no contradictions in the Bible, only apparent contradictions that are understood after closer scrutiny. Maybe that was the motive behind it? Dunno...
Maybe VP pointed these things out to prove that there are no contradictions in the Bible, only apparent contradictions that are understood after closer scrutiny. Maybe that was the motive behind it? Dunno...
I would agree the VPW did it for that reason, to point out no contradictions in the Bible. However, he brought forth more contradictions on his explanation. Nice try, though.
Were I a Bible-believing man, I think I'd still have a hard time accepting that Almighty God would be so anal-retentive as to require some sort of secret-decoder ring to understand His will.
Just doesn't seem to fit with an all-knowing, all loving sort of entity. Sorry...
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doojable
I only have a comment, Eagle. TWI was always changing stuff. It was never enough to just "read what was written."
Not two crucified, but four... That gave them a boost, so they seemed to always be setting themselves up as the source of the "real truth for what it REALLY says."
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Larry N Moore
Well, I suppose if that's what you believe -- that's what you believe. Would it matter if what you believe wasn't true?
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Raf
And did the cock crow once or twice?
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doojable
I wish you could read it in the original...
I wish I could read it in the original...
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Eyesopen
I wish I could read...
I wish there was an original...
Oh and the cock crowed once then his wife kicked him out of bed.
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Eagle
Larry,
If what I believed was wrong, it would matter to me. Why did you ask that?
All others:
The topic is about the way TWI tried reading into scripture what wasn't there. Then again, E.W. Bullinger did that to some extent. VPW did take that from Bullinger.
Yes, the accuracy of the Word of God does matter to me still.
The cock crow happened several times, the first one after midnight is called the "first cock crow" and the last one at dawn is called the "second cock crow", to help along with night watches, I suppose. But Easton's Bible Dictionary gives pretty good background on it.
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Abigail
I guess from a scholarly, intellectual standpoint it could be interesting. But I have to wonder what bearing it has on how one lives their life today?
I wonder the same thing about 2 v 4 crucified, does it really make a difference in the grander scheme of things? Will it cause me to change the way I think or behave?
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TheEvan
Right on Abi. The reason it's not spelled out clearly is because IT DOESN'T MATTER. The number crucified is not the point of the passage, nor is the number of denails the point of the passage. The big point is that all of those picaninny "accuracy of God's Word" studies miss the big point. That's why so many wayfers knew and know quite a bit of holy scripture but are so spiritually shallow and tepid.
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Oakspear
The "Six Denials" and "Four Crucified" (and maybe the "Two Entries into Jerusalem") are examples of a flawed "research principle", in my opinion.
Every mention of the denials lists three. Every mention of others crucified lists two. You can't get to six and four by just reading what is written, you can only get there by assuming that differences in detail translate into a total difference.
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Outfield
I've found it all interesting and I do see 4 crucified when the gospels are compared. I have never heard about the 6 times Peter denied Christ -- that is new to me.
I do know there are two seperate stories about the man in the tombs which are very different yet people lump them together.
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cman
Well, just to point out one thing about the 4 deal.
'In the midst' does not mean it's in the middle of more then two.
Nor does it even mean 'in the middle'.
The point is he was with them.
Like the tree of life 'in the midst of the garden'.
Don't mean the middle of it.
The 6, or 3, or 49, don't matter.
The point is forgiveness is never not a big deal imo.
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Oakspear
Assuming that God wants us to know that there was 4, not 2 crucified with Jesus, why (as Sprawled Out asked in another thread) doesn't God just say that?
I think Juedes has an alternate explanation that's quite plausible on his website, pointing out several of Wierwille's errors. We naturally, as former students of Wierwille's have internalized those errors and hardly realize they're there unless we really push to read the records objectively.
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Larry N Moore
Abi's post (immediately following yours) touches upon my reason for asking. I would imagine, like myself and others, you have discovered on many occasions that what you believed turned out to be false. Did it really change much in the way you lived your life? Probably not.
Ya know. I don't think I'll ever understand why every doctrinal/theological discussion found on GS always seems to be about what TWI taught. It doesn't matter what they taught -- what matters is what people believe is true. If I believed the Bible says there was six denials I don't have to reference what TWI says in order to discuss it. Another "Let's bash TWI!" feeding frenzy bores me. Somehow I thought the topic was about the accuracy of the Word as it relates to three or six denials. Do carry on and pardon my intrusion.
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TheInvisibleDan
I estimate 12 crucified with Christ - 3 crosses X 4 gospels.
Dat's riiight...
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Oakspear
Dan...stop it...you're boring Larry.
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Eagle
Oakspear,
I DO like your posts!
Dan,
That was a GOOD one! We should have brought that up in PFAL class. But then again, no one was allowed to talk, interrupt, or even take notes!
Larry, I guess what you mean to say that if something is either true or false, if it is true to a person, then it is truth to that person. Right?
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Larry N Moore
Well, that's one way of looking at it. But what I was getting at is -- I'm sure you've believed something to be true only to later discover it wasn't. Did discovering that, really change the way you live your life (for Jesus)? Does accuracy on such issues (as you're presenting here) make or break you?
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Jeaniam
I still believe in six denials of Peter (as much time as I spend thinking about it, which isn't much) as well as four crucified. I guess I think it's important to demonstrate the inherent accuracy of the Bible (Word), but in the general scheme of things it doesn't affect me much, and I wouldn't find it earthshaking if it wasn't true.
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J0nny Ling0
I could see four crucified. That made sense when I took the time to read through it all and sort it out. It doesn't make any difference to me concerning a relationship with God, other than seeing that it's there. The six denials? Now that's a dandy! I never could figure that one out. I just couldn't "see it" as it was explained. I just figured that I was too "grammatically challenged" or whatever to see it. There was something that VP said the Word said. Something like "twice thou shalt deny me thrice", and so, "twice times thrice" equals six. And I guess six denials is worse than three because 6 is the devil's number? That would be better than 3 because 3 means "complete". Yeah, maybe that is why it was important? Never could figure that one out. Maybe VP pointed these things out to prove that there are no contradictions in the Bible, only apparent contradictions that are understood after closer scrutiny. Maybe that was the motive behind it? Dunno...
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TheInvisibleDan
With 4 Jesii and a multitude of Marys amongst all 4 gospels, the possibilities are endless.
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cman
and 3 Peters in each gospel
that would make 12 disciples x 4
or 12 x 12 = 144
144 is a gross - a dozen dozen
then there's the 144000...
hmmmm it's allfitting together...lol :)
each disciple a day
a day is as a thousand years with the Lord
more...hmmmmmm
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Jeaniam
I would tend to agree with that.
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Eagle
I would agree the VPW did it for that reason, to point out no contradictions in the Bible. However, he brought forth more contradictions on his explanation. Nice try, though.
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George Aar
Were I a Bible-believing man, I think I'd still have a hard time accepting that Almighty God would be so anal-retentive as to require some sort of secret-decoder ring to understand His will.
Just doesn't seem to fit with an all-knowing, all loving sort of entity. Sorry...
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