If God's love is unconditional we would not need saving. He would just love us all without any conditions regardless of how we acted or what we believed. Unconditional is after all totally
without any conditions. In fact then, why would we even need God to love us unconditionally? What I do believe we do need, is to understand God's word and his attributes as well as all of his conditions and his ways;
A Directive of God is to study His word in order to know Him and what His will is: 2 Tim 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I also believe God would state that His love is unconditional; if it were so.
"The use of the term, “the unconditional love of God" has roots in hyper-Calvinistic ideology. Theologians who created and espoused the man made doctrine of fatalistic predestination also infected the church with the notion that God's love has no conditions attached to it. This is a convenient doctrine, for it places all of the responsibility in God's hands, while denying that mankind has any part in his or her salvation"
"The principles of Calvinism can be summarized in the well-known acronym T.U.L.I.P:
T= Total depravity of all mankind.
U= Unconditional election (i.e. God chooses us to be saved or damned; it is His unconditional election of the redeemed).
L= Limited atonement (i.e. Salvation is limited to those God selects to be saved).
I= Irresistible grace (i.e. God's grace is supposedly so irresistible that the elect cannot help but to choose it).
P= Perseverance of the saints (i.e. The "Elect' must persevere in their predestined election).
One can easily see that the "U" representing "unconditional election" leads to the now popular phrase, "God's unconditional love."
"Those who quote Jhn 3:16 to prove the position that god loves everyone unconditionally forget the requirements placed on man by Him.
As you read Jhn 3:16-18, consider what God demands of those who want to experience His love.
Jhn 3:16-18:
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
This and Rom 10: 9 & 10 state that God set up conditions in His word for mankind. Conditions for salvation, Forgiveness, for rewards and there are many other conditions throughout the bible and all its administrations too numerous to name.
God's Love is greater and higher and more enduring that we can understand:
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
His love is one attribute of God; His love is perfect as well as all the other attributes of God because He is perfect:
1 Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness.
Attributes of God and godliness:
Exd 3:14 - I am that I am..."
Rev 1:8 — "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
God is ever present and omniscient: all knowing
Eph 1:4 —"According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
Rev 19:6 — "...saying for the Lord God omnipotent reighneth.
" Omnipotent is all powerful.
Mal 3:6 — "I [am] the lord, I change not;..."
Psa 138: 2 —"I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and thy truth for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
Rom 11:33 - "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"
An 3:16 — For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 10:4 — "Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."
These are merely a few of God's attributes that show his nature and his ways.
Attributes of God's love that we are to imitate:
Eph 5:1 — "Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children."
1 Jhn 4:18 - "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love
1 Cor 8:1-" ...charity edifieth"
1 Cor 13:1-13 & 13: 8 - "...charity never faileth"
1 Pe 4:8 — "Above all have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover a multitude of sins
God's love is perfect, edifying, enduring, never faileth, shall cover a multitude of sins. God know we are flesh he remembers our frame . He is merciful and kind; fore bearing and long suffering; wise, fair and just.
God eschews evil —
I Pe 3:11-20 (references the Flood of Genesis 6)
Psa 103:9 — "He will not always chide or keep his anger forever."
God all throughout his word does show his righteous anger (i.e. the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Where 8 souls were saved by water. And Acts 5:1-5 — concerning Ananias and Sapphira.)
Love without conditions is not perfect love; it is rather blanket acceptance.
God did not create man to hew out his own cisterns:
Jer 2:13 — For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,[and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water." Cisterns are doctrines, ideologies and religions of man.
Romans Chapter 8 states and sets some of God's conditions of his love and salvation.
Spiritually we are perfect with the condition that we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
When we walk in the flesh as we often do we still often need to come to God and ask for His forgiveness...for not meeting His conditions and His ways. God always seems to endure and
forbear us in His unsearchable love. He is merciful and kind ... slow to anger He displays His conditions throughout His word.
1 Tim 4:1 &2 — " 1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 — Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
If God's love was unconditional these scriptures and many others would not matter. If God's love is unconditional why would we need God or Christ Jesus? God surely does greatly love us, beyond our comprehension; Partly, because of what Christ Jesus has done to make us acceptable to him. He brought our eternal life and restored our spiritual connect with God. God has as well loved us before the foundation of the world; but within His own set of conditions throughout all the ages.
I don't unconditionally love my old man nature; let alone anyone Else's, and I done believe God does either. That is why I needed God; His ways His love, His conditions, His word, and His salvation. Further,I will be rewarded with crowns and rewards as in accordance to my following his ways and conditions:
1Th 2:19 —"...crown of rejoicing..."; 2 Tim 4:8 — "...crown of righteousness..."; Jam 1:12 — "...crown of life..."; 1 Pe 5:4 — "...crown of glory...".
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it not subject to the law of is God, neither indeed can be
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If God's love is unconditional it would be unconditional for saint and sinner alike because he is "not a respecter of persons" and because "He so loved the world."
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye
shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time[are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also,
Rom 8:23 which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 but if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] he mind of the Spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
We still need intercession.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified and whom he justified, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shalt he not with him also freely give us
all. things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?[it is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
I believe that In this the Age of Grace we are the born-again sons and daughters of God. We still sin in the flesh; We are still loved and forgiven, but conditionally. God is not a respecter of persons and in all his ways He is fair and just. Vengeance is His.
If we do not ask rightly for forgiveness then we are not forgiven.
1 Jhn 1:9 — "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Phil 4:8 — "Finally Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, what so ever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, if [there be] any praise think on these things."
Truth is irrefutable. There are not twenty thousand true interpretations of an individual truth. Private interpretation is the removal of God's ways and conditions and is a hewing out of cisterns...which are man made doctrines, ideologies and religions.
This is not my opinion; Neither is it my point of view. This is what I know and believe as a workman of God's word.
Yes there are many debates, many ideologies, many religions, viewpoints and opinions, many tangents to pursue; and a vast number of resources to pursue them with as well. i.e.: Wikipedia has a Great number of books that some say are lost books of the bible like Jasper and Enoch and can explain away the flood as it is stated in the bible. i.e. some believe that angels have produced prodigy with humans and on and on. I do not.
RainbowsChild is my daughter and I love Her very much! She asked to have all sides. I am sure she will get them and weigh and sift them and ultimately believe whatever she wants to. I did teacher her some of this but she never regarded it as the truth she believed a lot of things prior to and after my teaching her anything. Now she is investigating it all. I though stand before God full well knowing that I am accountable to God for anything I have ever taught anyone. I am neither ashmed nor fearful about it!
I have no doubt that anyone can proof anything they want too. They can believe anything they want to! I stated what I believe and further, I do believe God cares VERY, VERY, VERY much what we believe about Him... yet God gave us all free will to choose.
Concerning the one's who have never read the bible or died without reading it or have not been yet born: Some of them have not read it by their free will choice. I believe that God through His fore knowledge has covered that in His own ways and under His own conditions: 1Cor 13:12 -"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." They are all known to God and I trust God knows how to take care of them and us all.
Wow Rainbow - there's a lot to respond to and I will try to come back to this.
Hi Abi! Always a pleasure to see you. Just a note on something that I noticed, Rainbows Child is asking a question of the entire board because she is confused about something that she has been taught. Presumabley some of what she has been taught came from the woman known on the boards as Rainbows Girl with whom RChild has lived for the past 6 years and looks upon as a mother.
The similarity in the names may cause some readers to confuse the two and their points of view.
Hi Abi! Always a pleasure to see you. Just a note on something that I noticed, Rainbows Child is asking a question of the entire board because she is confused about something that she has been taught. Presumabley some of what she has been taught came from the woman known on the boards as Rainbows Girl with whom RChild has lived for the past 6 years and looks upon as a mother.
The similarity in the names may cause some readers to confuse the two and their points of view.
Thank you for showing me that, Eyes, I missed that completely!!!!!
I've been taught several "sides" on this topic and I have seen different things. So basically I am confused.
Did TWI teach that God's love was unconditional? If so, were they right?
I've seen both sides of the argument "proven" by using the same scriptures, so which way is it?
Can someone help me, please?
Is God's love conditional upon salvation or does He really love everyone like John 3:16 says?
Okay, back to the beginning, now that I know I am replying to one person in this post and another in the second post! LOL LOL
What TWI taught was never very clear on many issues, RChild. They often said one thing and practiced another, at least on a leadership level. They also taught things with a twist so they could justify their own bad behavior - again on a leadership level. (I specify that because the vast majority of people were good honest people).
What exactly is it you are trying to figure out - conditional love verses unconditional love?
Can you define the terms? What those terms mean to you?
Do you know why you are asking these questions at this time? Do you know what sits peacefully in your heart?
We can debate all the verses and their various meanings, but I think you will be right back to, "I've seen both sides of the argument "proven" by using the same scriptures, so which way is it?"
What exactly is it you are trying to figure out - conditional love verses unconditional love?
Can you define the terms? What those terms mean to you?
Do you know why you are asking these questions at this time? Do you know what sits peacefully in your heart?
We can debate all the verses and their various meanings, but I think you will be right back to, "I've seen both sides of the argument "proven" by using the same scriptures, so which way is it?"
That is why I ask the questions I did. :)
Conditional love to me means that you have to earn it. Do we earn God's love when we are born again? That doesn't make sense to me because He had to have loved His people in the Old Testament. And it seems pretty shallow to think that He doesn't love everyone.
But if His love is unconditional then does that mean that He loves everyone the same, saint and sinner alike? What would be the benefit in terms of God's love to be born again if He already loves you unconditionally.
Is it earned or given? I know the difference between God's grace and mercy and I know that they are given freely but is His love given freely as well or does he have conditions on His love. Can we do something wrong and lose His love? That would seem shallow as well because most parents love their children no matter what they do. They may not be happy with what they do, but they love them all the same.
I read the posts by women like Rascal when she talks about the baby that she had to give up. I can feel her pain and great sense of loss through the computer. She obviously loved that child very deeply and yet she never even saw it. If a human's love can be so great and can go so far beyond physical boundries then why can't God's love be even bigger. Someplace in the Bible it talks about God's ways being bigger than ours. Doesn't it make sense that His love would be without conditions and could not be "lost"?
I'm not sure if that is very clear, as I said I am confused.
Thanks for clarifying RChild. I understand your dilemna and I can offer my opinion, but that is all it would be, my opinion.
So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you some more questions. :)
If God's love is conditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make?
If God's love is unconditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make?
See, in my mind, that is of utmost importance. If we use God's love to justify harmful behaviors (harmful to ourselves or others), then are we really being honest? Are we really loving God? Does it matter if we are honest or loving toward God?
I guess, I am thinking that while in one sense your question is very important, in another it may be irrelevant. We can say God loves us conditionally and I already broke the conditions therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things. We can say God's love is unconditional, therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things.
OR
We can say God loves me (conditionally or unconditionally, it doesn't matter) and because I also love God, I am going to do my best to make good decisions in my life. I am going to do my best to make decisions that are good for me and/or good for those around me.
Granted, that is very oversimpified, sometimes what is good for you is not so good (at least on the surface) for someone else. But I think for now, oversimplified will do. :)
Thanks for clarifying RChild. I understand your dilemna and I can offer my opinion, but that is all it would be, my opinion.
Thanks Abi, you opinion is worth as much as anyone elses opinion and I personally value it very much.
In answer to your questions, will the outcome change the way that I make decisions in my life, no, it will not. I am not asking this to justify nor validate any of my past or future actions. But only to understand the truth and possibly to understand human love a bit better.
You are right it is important that we are honest and loving towards God. And I can respect and see the possible lack of relevance to the question and regardless of the outcome to the question it will not affect my love for God or how I make my decisions.
Knowing how God's love works towards man helps me to understand our love for God and for each other in day to day life.
And your final question, is my love for myself conditional or unconditional? Well, I'm still working on that one. There is much that I need to work on in my own life. This is one reason why I have come here to seek some help in sorting out the confusions.
Thank you for your responses they do help me to define the parameters and to see that my love for God and how I conduct my life is really an important point.
Conditional Love does not have to be earned! It is given! It merely means you have a free will choices and/or responsibilities to chose how you behave and what you believe... or accept the consequences of your choices that lie outside the boundaries of say God's conditions and ways or the families conditions or ways....or even that of any relationship; Whether it be friend, peer or acquaintance. There are obligations/conditions in all relationships. Knowing the boundaries of each one and interactive communication and mutual respect cement the love in the relationship. They make and keep it strong and growing and make it able to continue to deepen; or else the relation becomes vulnerable and then destructive forces within or without are able to tear it apart.
All of this helps explain to me why God gave us free will. If He unconditionally loved us; we may as well be puppets on a string.
The same as in any family. God still loves us and our parents and family, still love us; but dependant upon how far we drift outside of their or God's love there are consequences and their are God's conditions to restore the relationship. Just as in a family. If I had a husband and he raped and beat me I would not want to continue our relationship. To say the least! I would be angry with him and want Him to go or totally stop hurting me. Further my love for him would be conditional and diminished and perhaps not restoreable.
God chooses how He loves and what he requires and "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways": Isa 55:9. God's ability to love is perfect; I have not ever known the love of mankind to be that perfect, under any conditions... very sadly so!
If God doesn't like everything that everyone does then how can He unconditionally love everything that everyone does? Is that logical? We even as His children displease Him to limitlessly varing degrees.
I similarly do not like everything that Joshua does and I do not unconditionally love everything he does. I Love Him so I train Him up well as God says to train him and to teach him well to the best of my abilities and with all my heart.... and I still remain frail and human and so I am extremely thankful that God remembers my frame and offers me a way to be forgiven and restores my relationship with Him to its fullness; Joshua has boundaries. Yes, I Love Him more than anyone could ever imagine or understand; and you as equally as Josh. But if He were a premeditative serial killer and rapist I would no longer like or love Him very much at all. He would have chosen to act evilly and without regard to the innocent and defenseless. He could have my forgiveness and restore our relationship but I cannot blindly accept or blindly love with "Blanket acceptance" of anyway that anyone chooses to behave, act, live or believe." No one loves me that way or ever has; not even God. Should God blindly love the premeditative rapists and murderers who willfully and unrepentantly preform all their evils???
Mankind's love is very conditional. Look at the divorce rate, broken homes and murder/suicide stats in this world.
Remember God who is perfect, Say's we should be" imitators of him as dear children"...it is an imperfect world...that continually "waxes worse and worse" that we live in; we are to guard our hearts and not with "blanket acceptances" of evil. not "turn the other cheek." Blindness is not an asset whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually.
Thanks Abi, you opinion is worth as much as anyone elses opinion and I personally value it very much.
SNIP
And your final question, is my love for myself conditional or unconditional? Well, I'm still working on that one. There is much that I need to work on in my own life. This is one reason why I have come here to seek some help in sorting out the confusions.
Thank you for your responses they do help me to define the parameters and to see that my love for God and how I conduct my life is really an important point.
Awwe, thanks RChild. Love for ourselves is a tricky thing, no? I sometimes think God forgives us more readily than we forgive ourselves, though sometimes it is reversed too. :) One question I ask myself when I have to make a tough decision is, can I look myself in the mirror and still like what I see if I do this or that?
One of the reasons I am asking so many questions of you, is usually, when we have such a big question as yours, when we are searching so intently for such an important answer, it is because it is relevant to something that is currently going on in our lives.
Okay, you asked for my opinion and I will give it. My opinion isn't so different from RGirl's post previous to this one. I might use slightly different terminology in that I differentiate between love and what I will allow in my life, but the overall intent and application is the same.
I would say God loves us all unconditionally but he doesn't like the way we behave. I would say, based on the OT, that there have been times when God even "walked away" or "turned his back" when people were behaving especially evil. Then there is the flood - God killed or allowed the devil to kill (depending on your particular beliefs) the entire population of people minus Noah and his family, because of the evil they committed. I think God probably loved those people, but he had boundaries regarding what he would allow them to do - how far he would allow them to go in the evil they committed.
I have similar boundaries in my own life. There was a time when someone I loved dearly was making choices that were hurtful to her life. Those choices also negatively affected my life to the degree I allowed her into my life. Eventually I had to draw a boundary and remove her from my life for a time. I still loved her, I still worried about her, but I couldn't help her and I couldn't fix her, because she had her own free will. The only thing I could do was stop her actions from negatively affecting my own life and pray for her.
Thankfully, the natural consequences of her actions eventually caused her to recognize her own destructive choices and she learned to make better choices. At that point we were able to rebuild a relationship and today she is one of my best friends.
So yes, I believe God loves us unconditionally. But I also believe God puts in place boundaries and natural consequences that we must endure when we behave badly. Sometimes those consquences are mild like the pain of a stubbed toe, sometimes those consequences are carried with us through the rest of our lives like a lost limb, sometimes those consequences can even be deadly.
Awwe, thanks RChild. Love for ourselves is a tricky thing, no? I sometimes think God forgives us more readily than we forgive ourselves, though sometimes it is reversed too. :) One question I ask myself when I have to make a tough decision is, can I look myself in the mirror and still like what I see if I do this or that?
One of the reasons I am asking so many questions of you, is usually, when we have such a big question as yours, when we are searching so intently for such an important answer, it is because it is relevant to something that is currently going on in our lives.
Okay, you asked for my opinion and I will give it. My opinion isn't so different from RGirl's post previous to this one. I might use slightly different terminology in that I differentiate between love and what I will allow in my life, but the overall intent and application is the same.
I would say God loves us all unconditionally but he doesn't like the way we behave. I would say, based on the OT, that there have been times when God even "walked away" or "turned his back" when people were behaving especially evil. Then there is the flood - God killed or allowed the devil to kill (depending on your particular beliefs) the entire population of people minus Noah and his family, because of the evil they committed. I think God probably loved those people, but he had boundaries regarding what he would allow them to do - how far he would allow them to go in the evil they committed.
I have similar boundaries in my own life. There was a time when someone I loved dearly was making choices that were hurtful to her life. Those choices also negatively affected my life to the degree I allowed her into my life. Eventually I had to draw a boundary and remove her from my life for a time. I still loved her, I still worried about her, but I couldn't help her and I couldn't fix her, because she had her own free will. The only thing I could do was stop her actions from negatively affecting my own life and pray for her.
Thankfully, the natural consequences of her actions eventually caused her to recognize her own destructive choices and she learned to make better choices. At that point we were able to rebuild a relationship and today she is one of my best friends.
So yes, I believe God loves us unconditionally. But I also believe God puts in place boundaries and natural consequences that we must endure when we behave badly. Sometimes those consquences are mild like the pain of a stubbed toe, sometimes those consequences are carried with us through the rest of our lives like a lost limb, sometimes those consequences can even be deadly.
Thank you ((((((((((Abi,)))))))))))))
We may differ at times, but I love and respect you, for your love, wisdom, style, and diligence. I Thank You for seeing a little of my heart...it means a lot to me!
Conditional Love does not have to be earned! It is given! It merely means you have a free will choices and/or responsibilities to chose how you behave and what you believe... or accept the consequences of your choices that lie outside the boundaries of say God's conditions and ways or the families conditions or ways....or even that of any relationship; Whether it be friend, peer or acquaintance. There are obligations/conditions in all relationships. Knowing the boundaries of each one and interactive communication and mutual respect cement the love in the relationship. They make and keep it strong and growing and make it able to continue to deepen; or else the relation becomes vulnerable and then destructive forces within or without are able to tear it apart. When love is maintained by conditions then it has a cost, therefore it is earned.
All of this helps explain to me why God gave us free will. If He unconditionally loved us; we may as well be puppets on a string. What?
The same as in any family. God still loves us and our parents and family, still love us; but dependant upon how far we drift outside of their or God's love there are consequences and their are God's conditions to restore the relationship. Just as in a family. If I had a husband and he raped and beat me I would not want to continue our relationship. To say the least! I would be angry with him and want Him to go or totally stop hurting me. Further my love for him would be conditional and diminished and perhaps not restoreable. Alright I agree with the concept of "consequences" in a relationship. But if God still loves us how can we "drift" outside of His love? Either we are in it or out of it. We can drift outside of the boundries set to maintain good favor but not love.
God chooses how He loves and what he requires and "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways": Isa 55:9. God's ability to love is perfect; I have not ever known the love of mankind to be that perfect, under any conditions... very sadly so! No argument
If God doesn't like everything that everyone does then how can He unconditionally love everything that everyone does? Is that logical? We even as His children displease Him to limitlessly varing degrees. I wasnt asking about behavior. No-one can like everything that everyone does that would be ridiculous and impossible. I never said that God unconditionally loved what we did.
I similarly do not like everything that Joshua does and I do not unconditionally love everything he does. I Love Him so I train Him up well as God says to train him and to teach him well to the best of my abilities and with all my heart.... and I still remain frail and human and so I am extremely thankful that God remembers my frame and offers me a way to be forgiven and restores my relationship with Him to its fullness; Joshua has boundaries. Yes, I Love Him more than anyone could ever imagine or understand; and you as equally as Josh. But if He were a premeditative serial killer and rapist I would no longer like or love Him very much at all. He would have chosen to act evilly and without regard to the innocent and defenseless. He could have my forgiveness and restore our relationship but I cannot blindly accept or blindly love with "Blanket acceptance" of anyway that anyone chooses to behave, act, live or believe." No one loves me that way or ever has; not even God. Should God blindly love the premeditative rapists and murderers who willfully and unrepentantly preform all their evils??? Doesnt "blind" imply that you do not know about something? Similarly I do not think that "blanket acceptance" is equal to forgiveness as you imply. One other thing, if Josh were to comitt an evil then you would be most hurt by it "because" you love him.
Mankind's love is very conditional. Look at the divorce rate, broken homes and murder/suicide stats in this world. I have no argument with this statement, but I asked about God's love not man's.
Remember God who is perfect, Say's we should be" imitators of him as dear children"...it is an imperfect world...that continually "waxes worse and worse" that we live in; we are to guard our hearts and not with "blanket acceptances" of evil. not "turn the other cheek." Blindness is not an asset whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually. To love someone is not an acceptance of behavior. Consequences are based on behavior, love is based on the person. Just because a person acts like an idiot does not mean that they are an idiot.
RC is your love unconditional? Yes. I would ask you if your love was unconditional but you have already documented here that your love is conditional.
Please read my first post. What that? That was a great synopsis of a website. You are right anyone can find anything to prove their argument on a website. You proved that point well.
So yes, I believe God loves us unconditionally. But I also believe God puts in place boundaries and natural consequences that we must endure when we behave badly. Sometimes those consquences are mild like the pain of a stubbed toe, sometimes those consequences are carried with us through the rest of our lives like a lost limb, sometimes those consequences can even be deadly.
Abi thank you so much for responding and being so clear and logical in your explanations. I agree with this statement. That God's love is unconditional with boundries that we are expected to stay within makes sense to me.
dear child,
it's got to be unconditional or up i'm up sheet's creek
many hugs
Hahaha...that would make at least two of us I think...
Abi thank you so much for responding and being so clear and logical in your explanations. I agree with this statement. That God's love is unconditional with boundries that we are expected to stay within makes sense to me.
RChild, I don't think what I said was so different from what RGirl said - we just used different terminology, different phrasing.
To both of the "Girls"
I'm going to be rather bold and plain here - it appears as if there is a disagreement between the two of you that goes beyond the philisophical (sp?) question of conditional or unconditional love. Sometimes, when are emotions are high, we tend towards feeling defensive of our position/point of view. When that occurs we don't always say things the way we intend to - strong emotions can (literally) make it difficult for a person to think. The other thing that occurs is that it can be difficult to see behind the words to the heart and intent.
Sometimes we have to ask ourselves what is more important, winning the argument or preserving the relationship?
Not a question I can even begin to answer in this circumstance, but one I pose for consideration across the board. I know nothing of specifics or circumstances, but the exchange here would indicate this is something deeper than it initially appeared to be.
Conditional Love does not have to be earned! It is given! It merely means you have a free will choices and/or responsibilities to chose how you behave and what you believe... or accept the consequences of your choices that lie outside the boundaries of say God's conditions and ways or the families conditions or ways....or even that of any relationship; Whether it be friend, peer or acquaintance. There are obligations/conditions in all relationships. Knowing the boundaries of each one and interactive communication and mutual respect cement the love in the relationship. They make and keep it strong and growing and make it able to continue to deepen; or else the relation becomes vulnerable and then destructive forces within or without are able to tear it apart.
When love is maintained by conditions then it has a cost, therefore it is earned.
Love is Given by the freedom of will of each individual and in an individual way and capacity. My Love was and is given to You and is continually extended to You! It is your choice to understand that or not!Abi stated that love needs to be maintained as well; because something needs to be maintained does not mean it is not freely given.
All of this helps explain to me why God gave us free will. If He unconditionally loved us; we may as well be puppets on a string. What?
If we didn't have free will we could not choose God would simply control us...He does not...He set His requirements and conditions as in my 1st post to your thread and perhaps you didn't notice this but the reference to the Calvinistic ideology was a reference, providing back ground history of when unconditional love was introduced and why.... and all of the rest of that post I wrote from working God's word.
The same as in any family. God still loves us and our parents and family, still love us; but dependent upon how far we drift outside of their or God's love there are consequences and their are God's conditions to restore the relationship. Just as in a family. If I had a husband and he raped and beat me I would not want to continue our relationship. To say the least! I would be angry with him and want Him to go or totally stop hurting me. Further my love for him would be conditional and diminished and perhaps not restoreable.
Alright I agree with the concept of "consequences" in a relationship. But if God still loves us how can we "drift" outside of His love? Either we are in it or out of it. We can drift outside of the boundaries set to maintain good favor but not love.
I answered this and Abi stated her opinion as well. My answer stands and I have given many examples and have stated far more than you have concluded.
God chooses how He loves and what he requires and "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways": Isa 55:9. God's ability to love is perfect; I have not ever known the love of mankind to be that perfect, under any conditions... very sadly so!
No argument
If God doesn't like everything that everyone does then how can He unconditionally love everything that everyone does? Is that logical? We even as His children displease Him to limitlessly varying degrees.
I wasn't asking about behavior. No-one can like everything that everyone does that would be ridiculous and impossible. I never said that God unconditionally loved what we did.
It has a bearing in this discussion. Define God's Love and tell me how it doesn't have a bearing on how we behave.
I similarly do not like everything that Joshua does and I do not unconditionally love everything he does. I Love Him so I train Him up well as God says to train him and to teach him well to the best of my abilities and with all my heart.... and I still remain frail and human and so I am extremely thankful that God remembers my frame and offers me a way to be forgiven and restores my relationship with Him to its fullness; Joshua has boundaries. Yes, I Love Him more than anyone could ever imagine or understand; and you as equally as Josh. But if He were a premeditative serial killer and rapist I would no longer like or love Him very much at all. He would have chosen to act evilly and without regard to the innocent and defenseless. He could have my forgiveness and restore our relationship but I cannot blindly accept or blindly love with "Blanket acceptance" of anyway that anyone chooses to behave, act, live or believe." No one loves me that way or ever has; not even God. Should God blindly love the premeditative rapists and murderers who willfully and unrepentantly preform all their evils???
Doesn't "blind" imply that you do not know about something?
It can imply that contextually in a specified context
Similarly I do not think that "blanket acceptance" is equal to forgiveness as you imply. One other thing, if Josh were to commit an evil then you would be most hurt by it "because" you love him.
I did not state that..that is how you interpreted it...there is a difference. Yes I would be beyond hurt at the least: but perhaps not the most...God perhaps would hurt the most and the families and victims might hurt more than me. Josh might ultimately hurt the worst...that only would God truly know being the searcher of all hearts
Mankind's love is very conditional. Look at the divorce rate, broken homes and murder/suicide stats in this world.
I have no argument with this statement, but I asked about God's love not man's.
This is in an expressed context about God's love and mankinds love and I am not sure how to clarify this any more than I have.
Remember God who is perfect, Say's we should be" imitators of him as dear children"...it is an imperfect world...that continually "waxes worse and worse" that we live in; we are to guard our hearts and not with "blanket acceptances" of evil. not "turn the other cheek." Blindness is not an asset whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually.
To love someone is not an acceptance of behavior. Consequences are based on behavior, love is based on the person. Just because a person acts like an idiot does not mean that they are an idiot.
I stand by what I stated and it has a component of what you are saying within itand How is it that you separate a person from their behavior? Their free will choices and their actions are a part of their total make up. Love is freely given and is not a passing of judgement upon analysing a person or picking them apart.
RC is your love unconditional?
Yes. I would ask you if your love was unconditional but you have already documented here that your love is conditional.
Please read my first post.
What that? That was a great synopsis of a website. You are right anyone can find anything to prove their argument on a website. You proved that point well.
I answered this under the free will part of this post if it at all matters to you.
I Love You.............................................!
There were conditions set up in order to become born again but I still believe once born again of God's seed it is permanent. You can deny His existence until the cows come home and it doesn't change a thing.
Once born of His seed you are His child.
Being a mother I would love my son regardless of his actions although I guarantee I might not like the actions. And I would be disappointed for his personal peace of mind as much as I would be for my own as his mother. But I am not God and I have darkness in me, there are variables of shadows all about me try as I might not to be evil hearted. In God there are none!
God cannot do less than His Word, it is a guarantee. He loves me and doesn't view me through my human frailties. Being spirit he looks through that crappy layer and sees my heart and my spirit. Like those infraray machines that see heat in bodies and bypasses the bones and skin and incidentals of clothing.
If we can't win His love by works how can we lose it by works?
If we can't win His love by works how can we lose it by works?
RChild, it is good to see that you are trying to expand your understanding of God and His ways.
You know my postition on this topic. I agree with Abi, Exie and Kathy that God's love is unconditional. I am certain that you know that RBG and I have discussed this topic on the phone and that we do not agree. This disagreement does not mean that either of us is right or wrong. It just means that we disagree.
You are a responsible, intelligent 22 year old woman and perfectly capable of coming to your own conclusions concerning this and any other matter. In this light I am pleased to see that you both seek and welcome the insight, knowledge and opinions of our fellow Greasespotters as well as RBG's insight.
I hope that you got what you needed out of this thread.
I wish you well as you venture out into the world to learn how to stand on your own two feet.
It seems to me, this a semantic problem, and Rainbowschild’s confusion is coming from a nonBiblical term. “Unconditional” is an expression not found in the Bible. I propose to go back to the beginning and start with the questions.
Did TWI teach that God's love was unconditional? If so, were they right?
Yes, they taught this as a definition to agape/agapeo. However, I haven’t run across that definition in any books I have. Thayer’s online doesn’t have it either. Were they right? You could say so, but the expression I think is misleading, hence the confusion.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Part of the very essence of God is He IS love. If that is His essence, it logically follows all of His acts are loving, including His acts of justice (although I think that’s hard to understand…). How could God ever not love if that is what He is???
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
God is the source of love.
Is God's love conditional upon salvation or does He really love everyone like John 3:16 says?
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
This point is made in I John numerous times. The proof and greatness of God’s love is it was not earned.
But if His love is unconditional then does that mean that He loves everyone the same, saint and sinner alike?
According to the verses above, yes.
What would be the benefit in terms of God's love to be born again if He already loves you unconditionally.
Well, you get eternal life for one thing. Saved from the wrath…Why does there need to be more of a benefit? For God to love you more? Way-think was along that line. Somehow we were more special than everyone else on earth, and God liked us better. We were trying to earn through works greater love. I think we can trust God to do His part. Our job is to love God and our neighbor.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If Jesus taught to love your enemies, and to love every one, wouldn’t it be logical that reflects God’s nature and will? Consider Jesus is telling us humans to love even our enemies. Can we reasonably expect less of God? How much greater is God than we are?
God is love always. God is good always. God is constant, we’re not particularly.
As an exwafer, any time I get confused, I first ask myself, am I looking at a non-Scriptural term? If so, I start over. The Scripture gets much more clear if you take man's non-Scriptural expressions out of it.
Thank you so much for your response. You definitly made me think and see this topic in a much clearer, greater light than I had before. I will definitly take your advice on "whether or not I am looking up a scriptural term or man's terms and definitions " when doing any further research.
You gave me much to think on and I thank you again.
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RainbowsGirl
If God's love is unconditional we would not need saving. He would just love us all without any conditions regardless of how we acted or what we believed. Unconditional is after all totally
without any conditions. In fact then, why would we even need God to love us unconditionally? What I do believe we do need, is to understand God's word and his attributes as well as all of his conditions and his ways;
A Directive of God is to study His word in order to know Him and what His will is: 2 Tim 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I also believe God would state that His love is unconditional; if it were so.
"The use of the term, “the unconditional love of God" has roots in hyper-Calvinistic ideology. Theologians who created and espoused the man made doctrine of fatalistic predestination also infected the church with the notion that God's love has no conditions attached to it. This is a convenient doctrine, for it places all of the responsibility in God's hands, while denying that mankind has any part in his or her salvation"
"The principles of Calvinism can be summarized in the well-known acronym T.U.L.I.P:
T= Total depravity of all mankind.
U= Unconditional election (i.e. God chooses us to be saved or damned; it is His unconditional election of the redeemed).
L= Limited atonement (i.e. Salvation is limited to those God selects to be saved).
I= Irresistible grace (i.e. God's grace is supposedly so irresistible that the elect cannot help but to choose it).
P= Perseverance of the saints (i.e. The "Elect' must persevere in their predestined election).
One can easily see that the "U" representing "unconditional election" leads to the now popular phrase, "God's unconditional love."
"Those who quote Jhn 3:16 to prove the position that god loves everyone unconditionally forget the requirements placed on man by Him.
As you read Jhn 3:16-18, consider what God demands of those who want to experience His love.
Jhn 3:16-18:
For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/unconditional.htm
This and Rom 10: 9 & 10 state that God set up conditions in His word for mankind. Conditions for salvation, Forgiveness, for rewards and there are many other conditions throughout the bible and all its administrations too numerous to name.
God's Love is greater and higher and more enduring that we can understand:
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
His love is one attribute of God; His love is perfect as well as all the other attributes of God because He is perfect:
1 Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness.
Attributes of God and godliness:
Exd 3:14 - I am that I am..."
Rev 1:8 — "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
God is ever present and omniscient: all knowing
Eph 1:4 —"According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
Rev 19:6 — "...saying for the Lord God omnipotent reighneth.
" Omnipotent is all powerful.
Mal 3:6 — "I [am] the lord, I change not;..."
Psa 138: 2 —"I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and thy truth for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
Rom 11:33 - "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"
An 3:16 — For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 10:4 — "Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."
These are merely a few of God's attributes that show his nature and his ways.
Attributes of God's love that we are to imitate:
Eph 5:1 — "Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children."
1 Jhn 4:18 - "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love
1 Cor 8:1-" ...charity edifieth"
1 Cor 13:1-13 & 13: 8 - "...charity never faileth"
1 Pe 4:8 — "Above all have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover a multitude of sins
God's love is perfect, edifying, enduring, never faileth, shall cover a multitude of sins. God know we are flesh he remembers our frame . He is merciful and kind; fore bearing and long suffering; wise, fair and just.
God eschews evil —
I Pe 3:11-20 (references the Flood of Genesis 6)
Psa 103:9 — "He will not always chide or keep his anger forever."
God all throughout his word does show his righteous anger (i.e. the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Where 8 souls were saved by water. And Acts 5:1-5 — concerning Ananias and Sapphira.)
Love without conditions is not perfect love; it is rather blanket acceptance.
God did not create man to hew out his own cisterns:
Jer 2:13 — For My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,[and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water." Cisterns are doctrines, ideologies and religions of man.
Romans Chapter 8 states and sets some of God's conditions of his love and salvation.
Spiritually we are perfect with the condition that we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
When we walk in the flesh as we often do we still often need to come to God and ask for His forgiveness...for not meeting His conditions and His ways. God always seems to endure and
forbear us in His unsearchable love. He is merciful and kind ... slow to anger He displays His conditions throughout His word.
1 Tim 4:1 &2 — " 1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 — Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
If God's love was unconditional these scriptures and many others would not matter. If God's love is unconditional why would we need God or Christ Jesus? God surely does greatly love us, beyond our comprehension; Partly, because of what Christ Jesus has done to make us acceptable to him. He brought our eternal life and restored our spiritual connect with God. God has as well loved us before the foundation of the world; but within His own set of conditions throughout all the ages.
I don't unconditionally love my old man nature; let alone anyone Else's, and I done believe God does either. That is why I needed God; His ways His love, His conditions, His word, and His salvation. Further,I will be rewarded with crowns and rewards as in accordance to my following his ways and conditions:
1Th 2:19 —"...crown of rejoicing..."; 2 Tim 4:8 — "...crown of righteousness..."; Jam 1:12 — "...crown of life..."; 1 Pe 5:4 — "...crown of glory...".
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it not subject to the law of is God, neither indeed can be
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If God's love is unconditional it would be unconditional for saint and sinner alike because he is "not a respecter of persons" and because "He so loved the world."
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye
shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time[are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also,
Rom 8:23 which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 but if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] he mind of the Spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
We still need intercession.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified and whom he justified, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shalt he not with him also freely give us
all. things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?[it is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [it is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
I believe that In this the Age of Grace we are the born-again sons and daughters of God. We still sin in the flesh; We are still loved and forgiven, but conditionally. God is not a respecter of persons and in all his ways He is fair and just. Vengeance is His.
If we do not ask rightly for forgiveness then we are not forgiven.
1 Jhn 1:9 — "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Phil 4:8 — "Finally Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, what so ever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, if [there be] any praise think on these things."
Truth is irrefutable. There are not twenty thousand true interpretations of an individual truth. Private interpretation is the removal of God's ways and conditions and is a hewing out of cisterns...which are man made doctrines, ideologies and religions.
This is not my opinion; Neither is it my point of view. This is what I know and believe as a workman of God's word.
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Abigail
Wow Rainbow - there's a lot to respond to and I will try to come back to this.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear Abi,
Yes there are many debates, many ideologies, many religions, viewpoints and opinions, many tangents to pursue; and a vast number of resources to pursue them with as well. i.e.: Wikipedia has a Great number of books that some say are lost books of the bible like Jasper and Enoch and can explain away the flood as it is stated in the bible. i.e. some believe that angels have produced prodigy with humans and on and on. I do not.
RainbowsChild is my daughter and I love Her very much! She asked to have all sides. I am sure she will get them and weigh and sift them and ultimately believe whatever she wants to. I did teacher her some of this but she never regarded it as the truth she believed a lot of things prior to and after my teaching her anything. Now she is investigating it all. I though stand before God full well knowing that I am accountable to God for anything I have ever taught anyone. I am neither ashmed nor fearful about it!
I have no doubt that anyone can proof anything they want too. They can believe anything they want to! I stated what I believe and further, I do believe God cares VERY, VERY, VERY much what we believe about Him... yet God gave us all free will to choose.
Concerning the one's who have never read the bible or died without reading it or have not been yet born: Some of them have not read it by their free will choice. I believe that God through His fore knowledge has covered that in His own ways and under His own conditions: 1Cor 13:12 -"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." They are all known to God and I trust God knows how to take care of them and us all.
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Eyesopen
Hi Abi! Always a pleasure to see you. Just a note on something that I noticed, Rainbows Child is asking a question of the entire board because she is confused about something that she has been taught. Presumabley some of what she has been taught came from the woman known on the boards as Rainbows Girl with whom RChild has lived for the past 6 years and looks upon as a mother.
The similarity in the names may cause some readers to confuse the two and their points of view.
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Abigail
Thank you for showing me that, Eyes, I missed that completely!!!!!
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Abigail
Okay, back to the beginning, now that I know I am replying to one person in this post and another in the second post! LOL LOL
What TWI taught was never very clear on many issues, RChild. They often said one thing and practiced another, at least on a leadership level. They also taught things with a twist so they could justify their own bad behavior - again on a leadership level. (I specify that because the vast majority of people were good honest people).
What exactly is it you are trying to figure out - conditional love verses unconditional love?
Can you define the terms? What those terms mean to you?
Do you know why you are asking these questions at this time? Do you know what sits peacefully in your heart?
We can debate all the verses and their various meanings, but I think you will be right back to, "I've seen both sides of the argument "proven" by using the same scriptures, so which way is it?"
That is why I ask the questions I did. :)
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Diamond
Conditional love to me means that you have to earn it. Do we earn God's love when we are born again? That doesn't make sense to me because He had to have loved His people in the Old Testament. And it seems pretty shallow to think that He doesn't love everyone.
But if His love is unconditional then does that mean that He loves everyone the same, saint and sinner alike? What would be the benefit in terms of God's love to be born again if He already loves you unconditionally.
Is it earned or given? I know the difference between God's grace and mercy and I know that they are given freely but is His love given freely as well or does he have conditions on His love. Can we do something wrong and lose His love? That would seem shallow as well because most parents love their children no matter what they do. They may not be happy with what they do, but they love them all the same.
I read the posts by women like Rascal when she talks about the baby that she had to give up. I can feel her pain and great sense of loss through the computer. She obviously loved that child very deeply and yet she never even saw it. If a human's love can be so great and can go so far beyond physical boundries then why can't God's love be even bigger. Someplace in the Bible it talks about God's ways being bigger than ours. Doesn't it make sense that His love would be without conditions and could not be "lost"?
I'm not sure if that is very clear, as I said I am confused.
Thank you for asking Abi!
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Abigail
Thanks for clarifying RChild. I understand your dilemna and I can offer my opinion, but that is all it would be, my opinion.
So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you some more questions. :)
If God's love is conditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make?
If God's love is unconditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make?
See, in my mind, that is of utmost importance. If we use God's love to justify harmful behaviors (harmful to ourselves or others), then are we really being honest? Are we really loving God? Does it matter if we are honest or loving toward God?
I guess, I am thinking that while in one sense your question is very important, in another it may be irrelevant. We can say God loves us conditionally and I already broke the conditions therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things. We can say God's love is unconditional, therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things.
OR
We can say God loves me (conditionally or unconditionally, it doesn't matter) and because I also love God, I am going to do my best to make good decisions in my life. I am going to do my best to make decisions that are good for me and/or good for those around me.
Granted, that is very oversimpified, sometimes what is good for you is not so good (at least on the surface) for someone else. But I think for now, oversimplified will do. :)
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Abigail
One more question,
Is your love for yourself conditional or unconditional?
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Diamond
Thanks Abi, you opinion is worth as much as anyone elses opinion and I personally value it very much.
In answer to your questions, will the outcome change the way that I make decisions in my life, no, it will not. I am not asking this to justify nor validate any of my past or future actions. But only to understand the truth and possibly to understand human love a bit better.
You are right it is important that we are honest and loving towards God. And I can respect and see the possible lack of relevance to the question and regardless of the outcome to the question it will not affect my love for God or how I make my decisions.
Knowing how God's love works towards man helps me to understand our love for God and for each other in day to day life.
And your final question, is my love for myself conditional or unconditional? Well, I'm still working on that one. There is much that I need to work on in my own life. This is one reason why I have come here to seek some help in sorting out the confusions.
Thank you for your responses they do help me to define the parameters and to see that my love for God and how I conduct my life is really an important point.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear RC,
Conditional Love does not have to be earned! It is given! It merely means you have a free will choices and/or responsibilities to chose how you behave and what you believe... or accept the consequences of your choices that lie outside the boundaries of say God's conditions and ways or the families conditions or ways....or even that of any relationship; Whether it be friend, peer or acquaintance. There are obligations/conditions in all relationships. Knowing the boundaries of each one and interactive communication and mutual respect cement the love in the relationship. They make and keep it strong and growing and make it able to continue to deepen; or else the relation becomes vulnerable and then destructive forces within or without are able to tear it apart.
All of this helps explain to me why God gave us free will. If He unconditionally loved us; we may as well be puppets on a string.
The same as in any family. God still loves us and our parents and family, still love us; but dependant upon how far we drift outside of their or God's love there are consequences and their are God's conditions to restore the relationship. Just as in a family. If I had a husband and he raped and beat me I would not want to continue our relationship. To say the least! I would be angry with him and want Him to go or totally stop hurting me. Further my love for him would be conditional and diminished and perhaps not restoreable.
God chooses how He loves and what he requires and "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways": Isa 55:9. God's ability to love is perfect; I have not ever known the love of mankind to be that perfect, under any conditions... very sadly so!
If God doesn't like everything that everyone does then how can He unconditionally love everything that everyone does? Is that logical? We even as His children displease Him to limitlessly varing degrees.
I similarly do not like everything that Joshua does and I do not unconditionally love everything he does. I Love Him so I train Him up well as God says to train him and to teach him well to the best of my abilities and with all my heart.... and I still remain frail and human and so I am extremely thankful that God remembers my frame and offers me a way to be forgiven and restores my relationship with Him to its fullness; Joshua has boundaries. Yes, I Love Him more than anyone could ever imagine or understand; and you as equally as Josh. But if He were a premeditative serial killer and rapist I would no longer like or love Him very much at all. He would have chosen to act evilly and without regard to the innocent and defenseless. He could have my forgiveness and restore our relationship but I cannot blindly accept or blindly love with "Blanket acceptance" of anyway that anyone chooses to behave, act, live or believe." No one loves me that way or ever has; not even God. Should God blindly love the premeditative rapists and murderers who willfully and unrepentantly preform all their evils???
Mankind's love is very conditional. Look at the divorce rate, broken homes and murder/suicide stats in this world.
Remember God who is perfect, Say's we should be" imitators of him as dear children"...it is an imperfect world...that continually "waxes worse and worse" that we live in; we are to guard our hearts and not with "blanket acceptances" of evil. not "turn the other cheek." Blindness is not an asset whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually.
RC is your love unconditional?
Please read my first post.
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Abigail
Awwe, thanks RChild. Love for ourselves is a tricky thing, no? I sometimes think God forgives us more readily than we forgive ourselves, though sometimes it is reversed too. :) One question I ask myself when I have to make a tough decision is, can I look myself in the mirror and still like what I see if I do this or that?
One of the reasons I am asking so many questions of you, is usually, when we have such a big question as yours, when we are searching so intently for such an important answer, it is because it is relevant to something that is currently going on in our lives.
Okay, you asked for my opinion and I will give it. My opinion isn't so different from RGirl's post previous to this one. I might use slightly different terminology in that I differentiate between love and what I will allow in my life, but the overall intent and application is the same.
I would say God loves us all unconditionally but he doesn't like the way we behave. I would say, based on the OT, that there have been times when God even "walked away" or "turned his back" when people were behaving especially evil. Then there is the flood - God killed or allowed the devil to kill (depending on your particular beliefs) the entire population of people minus Noah and his family, because of the evil they committed. I think God probably loved those people, but he had boundaries regarding what he would allow them to do - how far he would allow them to go in the evil they committed.
I have similar boundaries in my own life. There was a time when someone I loved dearly was making choices that were hurtful to her life. Those choices also negatively affected my life to the degree I allowed her into my life. Eventually I had to draw a boundary and remove her from my life for a time. I still loved her, I still worried about her, but I couldn't help her and I couldn't fix her, because she had her own free will. The only thing I could do was stop her actions from negatively affecting my own life and pray for her.
Thankfully, the natural consequences of her actions eventually caused her to recognize her own destructive choices and she learned to make better choices. At that point we were able to rebuild a relationship and today she is one of my best friends.
So yes, I believe God loves us unconditionally. But I also believe God puts in place boundaries and natural consequences that we must endure when we behave badly. Sometimes those consquences are mild like the pain of a stubbed toe, sometimes those consequences are carried with us through the rest of our lives like a lost limb, sometimes those consequences can even be deadly.
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RainbowsGirl
Thank you ((((((((((Abi,)))))))))))))
We may differ at times, but I love and respect you, for your love, wisdom, style, and diligence. I Thank You for seeing a little of my heart...it means a lot to me!
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Abigail
Perhaps it is just as Cman said, the NT can be found within the OT too :)
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RainbowsGirl
I believe that mankind is the same in both; and that God is the same in both...just the events, conditions, names, and faces have changed.
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excathedra
dear child,
it's got to be unconditional or up i'm up sheet's creek
many hugs
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Diamond
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Diamond
Abi thank you so much for responding and being so clear and logical in your explanations. I agree with this statement. That God's love is unconditional with boundries that we are expected to stay within makes sense to me.
Hahaha...that would make at least two of us I think...
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Abigail
RChild, I don't think what I said was so different from what RGirl said - we just used different terminology, different phrasing.
To both of the "Girls"
I'm going to be rather bold and plain here - it appears as if there is a disagreement between the two of you that goes beyond the philisophical (sp?) question of conditional or unconditional love. Sometimes, when are emotions are high, we tend towards feeling defensive of our position/point of view. When that occurs we don't always say things the way we intend to - strong emotions can (literally) make it difficult for a person to think. The other thing that occurs is that it can be difficult to see behind the words to the heart and intent.
Sometimes we have to ask ourselves what is more important, winning the argument or preserving the relationship?
Not a question I can even begin to answer in this circumstance, but one I pose for consideration across the board. I know nothing of specifics or circumstances, but the exchange here would indicate this is something deeper than it initially appeared to be.
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RainbowsGirl
QUOTE(RainbowsGirl @ Aug 16 2007, 03:00 PM)
Dear RC,
Conditional Love does not have to be earned! It is given! It merely means you have a free will choices and/or responsibilities to chose how you behave and what you believe... or accept the consequences of your choices that lie outside the boundaries of say God's conditions and ways or the families conditions or ways....or even that of any relationship; Whether it be friend, peer or acquaintance. There are obligations/conditions in all relationships. Knowing the boundaries of each one and interactive communication and mutual respect cement the love in the relationship. They make and keep it strong and growing and make it able to continue to deepen; or else the relation becomes vulnerable and then destructive forces within or without are able to tear it apart.
When love is maintained by conditions then it has a cost, therefore it is earned.
Love is Given by the freedom of will of each individual and in an individual way and capacity. My Love was and is given to You and is continually extended to You! It is your choice to understand that or not! Abi stated that love needs to be maintained as well; because something needs to be maintained does not mean it is not freely given.
All of this helps explain to me why God gave us free will. If He unconditionally loved us; we may as well be puppets on a string. What?
If we didn't have free will we could not choose God would simply control us...He does not...He set His requirements and conditions as in my 1st post to your thread and perhaps you didn't notice this but the reference to the Calvinistic ideology was a reference, providing back ground history of when unconditional love was introduced and why.... and all of the rest of that post I wrote from working God's word.
The same as in any family. God still loves us and our parents and family, still love us; but dependent upon how far we drift outside of their or God's love there are consequences and their are God's conditions to restore the relationship. Just as in a family. If I had a husband and he raped and beat me I would not want to continue our relationship. To say the least! I would be angry with him and want Him to go or totally stop hurting me. Further my love for him would be conditional and diminished and perhaps not restoreable.
Alright I agree with the concept of "consequences" in a relationship. But if God still loves us how can we "drift" outside of His love? Either we are in it or out of it. We can drift outside of the boundaries set to maintain good favor but not love.
I answered this and Abi stated her opinion as well. My answer stands and I have given many examples and have stated far more than you have concluded.
God chooses how He loves and what he requires and "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways": Isa 55:9. God's ability to love is perfect; I have not ever known the love of mankind to be that perfect, under any conditions... very sadly so!
No argument
If God doesn't like everything that everyone does then how can He unconditionally love everything that everyone does? Is that logical? We even as His children displease Him to limitlessly varying degrees.
I wasn't asking about behavior. No-one can like everything that everyone does that would be ridiculous and impossible. I never said that God unconditionally loved what we did.
It has a bearing in this discussion. Define God's Love and tell me how it doesn't have a bearing on how we behave.
I similarly do not like everything that Joshua does and I do not unconditionally love everything he does. I Love Him so I train Him up well as God says to train him and to teach him well to the best of my abilities and with all my heart.... and I still remain frail and human and so I am extremely thankful that God remembers my frame and offers me a way to be forgiven and restores my relationship with Him to its fullness; Joshua has boundaries. Yes, I Love Him more than anyone could ever imagine or understand; and you as equally as Josh. But if He were a premeditative serial killer and rapist I would no longer like or love Him very much at all. He would have chosen to act evilly and without regard to the innocent and defenseless. He could have my forgiveness and restore our relationship but I cannot blindly accept or blindly love with "Blanket acceptance" of anyway that anyone chooses to behave, act, live or believe." No one loves me that way or ever has; not even God. Should God blindly love the premeditative rapists and murderers who willfully and unrepentantly preform all their evils???
Doesn't "blind" imply that you do not know about something?
It can imply that contextually in a specified context
Similarly I do not think that "blanket acceptance" is equal to forgiveness as you imply. One other thing, if Josh were to commit an evil then you would be most hurt by it "because" you love him.
I did not state that..that is how you interpreted it...there is a difference. Yes I would be beyond hurt at the least: but perhaps not the most...God perhaps would hurt the most and the families and victims might hurt more than me. Josh might ultimately hurt the worst...that only would God truly know being the searcher of all hearts
Mankind's love is very conditional. Look at the divorce rate, broken homes and murder/suicide stats in this world.
I have no argument with this statement, but I asked about God's love not man's.
This is in an expressed context about God's love and mankinds love and I am not sure how to clarify this any more than I have.
Remember God who is perfect, Say's we should be" imitators of him as dear children"...it is an imperfect world...that continually "waxes worse and worse" that we live in; we are to guard our hearts and not with "blanket acceptances" of evil. not "turn the other cheek." Blindness is not an asset whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually.
To love someone is not an acceptance of behavior. Consequences are based on behavior, love is based on the person. Just because a person acts like an idiot does not mean that they are an idiot.
I stand by what I stated and it has a component of what you are saying within it and How is it that you separate a person from their behavior? Their free will choices and their actions are a part of their total make up. Love is freely given and is not a passing of judgement upon analysing a person or picking them apart.
RC is your love unconditional?
Yes. I would ask you if your love was unconditional but you have already documented here that your love is conditional.
Please read my first post.
What that? That was a great synopsis of a website. You are right anyone can find anything to prove their argument on a website. You proved that point well.
I answered this under the free will part of this post if it at all matters to you.
I Love You.............................................!
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ChattyKathy
There were conditions set up in order to become born again but I still believe once born again of God's seed it is permanent. You can deny His existence until the cows come home and it doesn't change a thing.
Once born of His seed you are His child.
Being a mother I would love my son regardless of his actions although I guarantee I might not like the actions. And I would be disappointed for his personal peace of mind as much as I would be for my own as his mother. But I am not God and I have darkness in me, there are variables of shadows all about me try as I might not to be evil hearted. In God there are none!
God cannot do less than His Word, it is a guarantee. He loves me and doesn't view me through my human frailties. Being spirit he looks through that crappy layer and sees my heart and my spirit. Like those infraray machines that see heat in bodies and bypasses the bones and skin and incidentals of clothing.
If we can't win His love by works how can we lose it by works?
RChild, it is good to see you posting here.
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Eyesopen
RChild, it is good to see that you are trying to expand your understanding of God and His ways.
You know my postition on this topic. I agree with Abi, Exie and Kathy that God's love is unconditional. I am certain that you know that RBG and I have discussed this topic on the phone and that we do not agree. This disagreement does not mean that either of us is right or wrong. It just means that we disagree.
You are a responsible, intelligent 22 year old woman and perfectly capable of coming to your own conclusions concerning this and any other matter. In this light I am pleased to see that you both seek and welcome the insight, knowledge and opinions of our fellow Greasespotters as well as RBG's insight.
I hope that you got what you needed out of this thread.
I wish you well as you venture out into the world to learn how to stand on your own two feet.
God Bless you!
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another spot
It seems to me, this a semantic problem, and Rainbowschild’s confusion is coming from a nonBiblical term. “Unconditional” is an expression not found in the Bible. I propose to go back to the beginning and start with the questions.
Did TWI teach that God's love was unconditional? If so, were they right?
Yes, they taught this as a definition to agape/agapeo. However, I haven’t run across that definition in any books I have. Thayer’s online doesn’t have it either. Were they right? You could say so, but the expression I think is misleading, hence the confusion.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Part of the very essence of God is He IS love. If that is His essence, it logically follows all of His acts are loving, including His acts of justice (although I think that’s hard to understand…). How could God ever not love if that is what He is???
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
God is the source of love.
Is God's love conditional upon salvation or does He really love everyone like John 3:16 says?
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
This point is made in I John numerous times. The proof and greatness of God’s love is it was not earned.
But if His love is unconditional then does that mean that He loves everyone the same, saint and sinner alike?
According to the verses above, yes.
What would be the benefit in terms of God's love to be born again if He already loves you unconditionally.
Well, you get eternal life for one thing. Saved from the wrath…Why does there need to be more of a benefit? For God to love you more? Way-think was along that line. Somehow we were more special than everyone else on earth, and God liked us better. We were trying to earn through works greater love. I think we can trust God to do His part. Our job is to love God and our neighbor.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If Jesus taught to love your enemies, and to love every one, wouldn’t it be logical that reflects God’s nature and will? Consider Jesus is telling us humans to love even our enemies. Can we reasonably expect less of God? How much greater is God than we are?
God is love always. God is good always. God is constant, we’re not particularly.
As an exwafer, any time I get confused, I first ask myself, am I looking at a non-Scriptural term? If so, I start over. The Scripture gets much more clear if you take man's non-Scriptural expressions out of it.
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Diamond
Spot
Thank you so much for your response. You definitly made me think and see this topic in a much clearer, greater light than I had before. I will definitly take your advice on "whether or not I am looking up a scriptural term or man's terms and definitions " when doing any further research.
You gave me much to think on and I thank you again.
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