Just like most everything in twi, it was up to the individual to decide for themselves what possessions they wanted and not wanted. This of course didn't always apply to the Corps or WOW which were special training programs.
Seeing earthly family... was an individual decision.
Same with movies. I can remember some very fond memories of all my WOW family enjoying "The Empire Strikes Back" first time at the movies, back in 1979.
I was encouraged by VP, personally, that after the WOW program to go back to my area in the Bronx and teach them what I learned. I didn't follow his advice, instead I thought I knew better, went in the Corps, and screwed up.
Regarding "visiting earthly family" , I would readily admit that having one's entire family in twi which I did made things a whole lot easier.
Not innie families, were body and soul empties....spiritual life suckers....conduits for satan...
Making it easier??? That was what made it possible period. You didn`t have contact with non ministry family unless you wanted to chance contamination.
Like I said...no outside reading ..no outside family and friends, no news papers, no tv, worldly education was harshly critisized and discouraged.....
Yeah I`d say that we became pretty wierd in our isolation from all outside input.
If you isolated yourself, that was your choice; but these issues were predominantly up to the individual. or, the mindset of the individual making the decision.
You do not know what you are talking about oldies....How could you?? You family were all innies. I have told you what it was like if your family wasn`t....I can because I know what I was told concerning my non twi family...shrug...you wouldn`t have any experience to base your understanding on.
I keep trying to tell you that the rules that were applied to you and your innie family ...one with people that were way up on the food chain were entirely different than that for a run of the mill believer.
There was a difference in our treatment and experiences....Why must you discredit mine because they were not yours as part of the elite and privileged of twi?
What could you possibly klnow about whether or not we were permitted to associate with our families??
Because I fellowshipped with people just like you for 19 years, who did not necessarily have their entire family involved in twi; and while I believe you for what YOU went through, I do not believe your every remark when you think you speak for everyone else. You don't speak for everyone else. Why can't you get that?
In my first year of WOW, my sister's unbelieving family visited us, out on the field. It was her decision. She wasn't isolated. That's just one example of why you don't speak for everyone else...
Why oldies, you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth spiritually speaking....you yourself constantly point out that your treatment was entirely different than most of the rest of the people on these boards.....I can only surmise that the status that your family brought, had bearing on the way you were treated.
I know what I was told, I know what standard I was held to, I know whom I was allowed contact and what I was allowed to read, view, and participate in. I had no family members in...
It is the only answere I can come up with to explain the discrepancy.
I thought of another great read of a person overcoming a lot of obstacles Dot...
*Against all odds*...Chuck Norris` auto biograghy. You don`t have to like Karate to enjoy this book and get a lot out of it.
I read out loud to my family on the trip north and got so tickled at some points...that it would be 5 miniutes before I could stop laughing hard enough to resume reading...:)
He had a difficult child hood made bearable by the prayers and efforts of a strong Christian mother.
Very inspirational to see how God can work in a persons life in spite of how difficult the circumstances are. A powerfull testimony to the faithfullness of God,
...I can only surmise that the status that your family brought, had bearing on the way you were treated.
Well you surmise wrong. I invited you to discuss this point privately with me in the past; i.e., if you have any knowledge or facts that I was treated better than anyone else because of my family members involvement ... then I would concede the point with you. But you have no specific knowledge or facts, just destructive conjecture where that's concerned.
I just want to reiterate that I do believe you when you talk about yourself and your own experiences. I respect that. However I tend to doubt you when you think you speak for everyone else's experience...
A great book ...not exactly christian that helped me a lot in realising that we can go far ...
Dot you would love it....*The man who listened (s?) to horses. It is the auto biograghy of Monty Roberts,,,the REAL horse whisperer.
He overcame viscious child hood abuse and managed to turn the entire horse world on its ear ...changing the understanding and training methods that have been in place since man and horse began their partnership.
quote: I know what I was told, I know what standard I was held to, I know whom I was allowed contact and what I was allowed to read, view, and participate in. I had no family members in...
You must've been a real sucker. WHO held you to this standard? A twig leader? Branch leader? Really pushy brothers and sisters in Christ? NOBODY would have gotten away with telling me not to see my earthly family or gotten away with ordering me to get rid of albums or not see movies. I had no family members in either, but all 4 of us in my wow family had all living parents visit them (us) on the wow field.
Just because you personally were too weak to stand up to some people you should've stood up to doesn't mean TWI made you that way. You were like that before. Oldies is right; you don't speak for all of us.
Weak? Maybe, but I THOUGHT I was being obediant. I was taught that was what was required for me to grow spiritually, to show my love for God....to be a doulos.
Weak...yeah I guess my desire to love and serve God was what made me weak.
Based on the information you've given, I'm wondering if your earthly family really WAS especially toxic and leadership knew it and told you personally to stay away from them for awhile until you got stronger in the word, NOT because that was what they told everybody, but because that advice was for you because of the specifics of your situation, and that ONLY for a temporary period of time.
You took the same advanced class I did (Emp '84). Even if that wasn't your first one, they wouldn't have let you take it if they didn't feel you were strong enough for it. I just can't believe that every single leader you ever had was totally obsessive in laying down the law about communicating with family, reading books, etc.
.. You must've been a real sucker. WHO held you to this standard? A twig leader? Branch leader? Really pushy brothers and sisters in Christ? NOBODY would have gotten away with telling me not to see my earthly family or gotten away with ordering me to get rid of albums or not see movies. I had no family members in either, but all 4 of us in my wow family had all living parents visit them (us) on the wow field.
Thanks for sharing that Johniam. Kind of adds some light on the twi- isolationism propaganda, doesn't it? Imagine, glassy-eyed neon eyed cult followers under mind control bondage for a whole year being allowed visits from their parents!
Come to think of it, the night we were commisioned as wows they gave us a stamped post card with instructions to send them to our parents telling them where we got sent.
Well, one thing I am pretty sure of is that Oldies and Johniam were never in Fellowlaborers.
Rascal's description is MUCH closer to the reality that existed there.(Mid 1970s, BTW)
There was no time to sit and read books.
There was scarcely even time to read the Bible!
There was no time for scholastic study of The Word.
There was no time to take in a movie unless it was part of the program. When Rocky was released we HAD to go into town on a Saturday night( which should have been considered a rare treat) and watch it so we could pick out "spiritual" principles at work.
Yeah, like that made it enjoyable.
Sure, Oldies, I know we could have "walked away" any time we wanted to.(even though we were in the middle of Podunk, USA)
Maybe we could have hung signs around our necks that said"copped out loser" and gone back to our home towns to announce our unfitness for service to God's people while we were at it, huh?
It's obvious to me when someone says "you had the freedom to do this or that" that they could not have been in the same program I was in. They "owned" us 24/7.
You didn't go anywhere, do anything, say anything, discuss anything or even consider anything unless they said so.
Isolationism was a reality, not some *propaganda* that lives in someone's imagination.
(And, that was in the so-called "good old days".)
Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of people taking a legitimate topic and derailing it to serve their own agenda which may or may not have a blasted thing to do with the topic at hand.
NOW!!
Can we get back to discussing "other" Christian books?
I had what twi called an 'unbelieving believer' husband and the leadership very nicely discouraged me spending time with HIM, MY HUSBAND!
I was also discouraged from spending time with his mom and dad, as well as my siblings and non-twi friends and neighbors. I had no parents, but if I had, I believe I'd been told about them being 'empty shells' and other uncomplimentary terms too.
It was all about fellowshipping only with likeminded believers.
I was in from '79-'94.
Books on my shelf awaiting my reading them:
They Shall Expel Demons by Derek Prince
Blessing or CUrse by Derek Prince
On Experiencing God's Power by Derek Prince
Believing God by Beth Moore
The D.L. Moody Collection, edited and compiled by James S. Bell, Jr.
I also have a couple Joyce Meyers books, as well as Dale Sides that I have yet to read.
quote: Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of people taking a legitimate topic and derailing it to serve their own agenda which may or may not have a blasted thing to do with the topic at hand.
Excuse me, Waysider, but Rascal is the one who did this. Reread the thread.
quote: Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of people taking a legitimate topic and derailing it to serve their own agenda which may or may not have a blasted thing to do with the topic at hand.
Excuse me, Waysider, but Rascal is the one who did this. Reread the thread.
O RLY?
(snip)
In 70s/80s TWI they didn't discourage reading material from other authors.
(snip)
Oh come on. If you really wanna break out of a rut, why not try out something like "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, or "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan? Sagan was a brilliant guy but without any trace of animosity that Dawkins often betrays. Both are/were really smart guys, scary smart in Sagan's case.
Either of those will definitely get some different wheels spinning...
Actually, I just picked up "the Dawkins Delusion" by Alister Mc Grath and Jonanna Collicutt Mc Grath.
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oldiesman
Just like most everything in twi, it was up to the individual to decide for themselves what possessions they wanted and not wanted. This of course didn't always apply to the Corps or WOW which were special training programs.
Seeing earthly family... was an individual decision.
Same with movies. I can remember some very fond memories of all my WOW family enjoying "The Empire Strikes Back" first time at the movies, back in 1979.
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rascal
Seeing earthly family was highly discouraged...Satan would use them to attack you....Don`t trust them, they would talk you out of the word....
Don`t go back to them after your wow year because you would die spiritually....shrug...
Didn`t seem like there was any decision to make other than did you want to live or die.
Movies?? Yeah I guess I do remember being permited to go to a movie that we were to spiritually critique.
Rocky Horror picture show....lol
I suppose seeing earthly family was permitted if they were innies.
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oldiesman
I was encouraged by VP, personally, that after the WOW program to go back to my area in the Bronx and teach them what I learned. I didn't follow his advice, instead I thought I knew better, went in the Corps, and screwed up.
Regarding "visiting earthly family" , I would readily admit that having one's entire family in twi which I did made things a whole lot easier.
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rascal
Whole lot easier??? It was permitted.
Not innie families, were body and soul empties....spiritual life suckers....conduits for satan...
Making it easier??? That was what made it possible period. You didn`t have contact with non ministry family unless you wanted to chance contamination.
Like I said...no outside reading ..no outside family and friends, no news papers, no tv, worldly education was harshly critisized and discouraged.....
Yeah I`d say that we became pretty wierd in our isolation from all outside input.
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oldiesman
If you isolated yourself, that was your choice; but these issues were predominantly up to the individual. or, the mindset of the individual making the decision.
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rascal
You do not know what you are talking about oldies....How could you?? You family were all innies. I have told you what it was like if your family wasn`t....I can because I know what I was told concerning my non twi family...shrug...you wouldn`t have any experience to base your understanding on.
I keep trying to tell you that the rules that were applied to you and your innie family ...one with people that were way up on the food chain were entirely different than that for a run of the mill believer.
There was a difference in our treatment and experiences....Why must you discredit mine because they were not yours as part of the elite and privileged of twi?
What could you possibly klnow about whether or not we were permitted to associate with our families??
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oldiesman
Because I fellowshipped with people just like you for 19 years, who did not necessarily have their entire family involved in twi; and while I believe you for what YOU went through, I do not believe your every remark when you think you speak for everyone else. You don't speak for everyone else. Why can't you get that?
In my first year of WOW, my sister's unbelieving family visited us, out on the field. It was her decision. She wasn't isolated. That's just one example of why you don't speak for everyone else...
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rascal
Why oldies, you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth spiritually speaking....you yourself constantly point out that your treatment was entirely different than most of the rest of the people on these boards.....I can only surmise that the status that your family brought, had bearing on the way you were treated.
I know what I was told, I know what standard I was held to, I know whom I was allowed contact and what I was allowed to read, view, and participate in. I had no family members in...
It is the only answere I can come up with to explain the discrepancy.
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rascal
I thought of another great read of a person overcoming a lot of obstacles Dot...
*Against all odds*...Chuck Norris` auto biograghy. You don`t have to like Karate to enjoy this book and get a lot out of it.
I read out loud to my family on the trip north and got so tickled at some points...that it would be 5 miniutes before I could stop laughing hard enough to resume reading...:)
He had a difficult child hood made bearable by the prayers and efforts of a strong Christian mother.
Very inspirational to see how God can work in a persons life in spite of how difficult the circumstances are. A powerfull testimony to the faithfullness of God,
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oldiesman
Well you surmise wrong. I invited you to discuss this point privately with me in the past; i.e., if you have any knowledge or facts that I was treated better than anyone else because of my family members involvement ... then I would concede the point with you. But you have no specific knowledge or facts, just destructive conjecture where that's concerned.
I just want to reiterate that I do believe you when you talk about yourself and your own experiences. I respect that. However I tend to doubt you when you think you speak for everyone else's experience...
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rascal
A great book ...not exactly christian that helped me a lot in realising that we can go far ...
Dot you would love it....*The man who listened (s?) to horses. It is the auto biograghy of Monty Roberts,,,the REAL horse whisperer.
He overcame viscious child hood abuse and managed to turn the entire horse world on its ear ...changing the understanding and training methods that have been in place since man and horse began their partnership.
Truly inspirational.
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johniam
quote: I know what I was told, I know what standard I was held to, I know whom I was allowed contact and what I was allowed to read, view, and participate in. I had no family members in...
You must've been a real sucker. WHO held you to this standard? A twig leader? Branch leader? Really pushy brothers and sisters in Christ? NOBODY would have gotten away with telling me not to see my earthly family or gotten away with ordering me to get rid of albums or not see movies. I had no family members in either, but all 4 of us in my wow family had all living parents visit them (us) on the wow field.
Just because you personally were too weak to stand up to some people you should've stood up to doesn't mean TWI made you that way. You were like that before. Oldies is right; you don't speak for all of us.
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rascal
Weak? Maybe, but I THOUGHT I was being obediant. I was taught that was what was required for me to grow spiritually, to show my love for God....to be a doulos.
Weak...yeah I guess my desire to love and serve God was what made me weak.
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johniam
Based on the information you've given, I'm wondering if your earthly family really WAS especially toxic and leadership knew it and told you personally to stay away from them for awhile until you got stronger in the word, NOT because that was what they told everybody, but because that advice was for you because of the specifics of your situation, and that ONLY for a temporary period of time.
You took the same advanced class I did (Emp '84). Even if that wasn't your first one, they wouldn't have let you take it if they didn't feel you were strong enough for it. I just can't believe that every single leader you ever had was totally obsessive in laying down the law about communicating with family, reading books, etc.
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rascal
What really WAS especially toxic was twi John.
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oldiesman
Thanks for sharing that Johniam. Kind of adds some light on the twi- isolationism propaganda, doesn't it? Imagine, glassy-eyed neon eyed cult followers under mind control bondage for a whole year being allowed visits from their parents!
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johniam
Come to think of it, the night we were commisioned as wows they gave us a stamped post card with instructions to send them to our parents telling them where we got sent.
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WordWolf
Man, I wish we ALL had been in the twi you two were in.
It sounds like such a great place.
I mean, I was spared all the REAL damage, and it still sounds like the twi I was in sucked eggs compared to the
one you guys were in.
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johniam
Well, the only thing I have to compare twi with is the dope culture and twi was better all around.
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waysider
Well, one thing I am pretty sure of is that Oldies and Johniam were never in Fellowlaborers.
Rascal's description is MUCH closer to the reality that existed there.(Mid 1970s, BTW)
There was no time to sit and read books.
There was scarcely even time to read the Bible!
There was no time for scholastic study of The Word.
There was no time to take in a movie unless it was part of the program. When Rocky was released we HAD to go into town on a Saturday night( which should have been considered a rare treat) and watch it so we could pick out "spiritual" principles at work.
Yeah, like that made it enjoyable.
Sure, Oldies, I know we could have "walked away" any time we wanted to.(even though we were in the middle of Podunk, USA)
Maybe we could have hung signs around our necks that said"copped out loser" and gone back to our home towns to announce our unfitness for service to God's people while we were at it, huh?
It's obvious to me when someone says "you had the freedom to do this or that" that they could not have been in the same program I was in. They "owned" us 24/7.
You didn't go anywhere, do anything, say anything, discuss anything or even consider anything unless they said so.
Isolationism was a reality, not some *propaganda* that lives in someone's imagination.
(And, that was in the so-called "good old days".)
Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of people taking a legitimate topic and derailing it to serve their own agenda which may or may not have a blasted thing to do with the topic at hand.
NOW!!
Can we get back to discussing "other" Christian books?
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bowtwi
I had what twi called an 'unbelieving believer' husband and the leadership very nicely discouraged me spending time with HIM, MY HUSBAND!
I was also discouraged from spending time with his mom and dad, as well as my siblings and non-twi friends and neighbors. I had no parents, but if I had, I believe I'd been told about them being 'empty shells' and other uncomplimentary terms too.
It was all about fellowshipping only with likeminded believers.
I was in from '79-'94.
Books on my shelf awaiting my reading them:
They Shall Expel Demons by Derek Prince
Blessing or CUrse by Derek Prince
On Experiencing God's Power by Derek Prince
Believing God by Beth Moore
The D.L. Moody Collection, edited and compiled by James S. Bell, Jr.
I also have a couple Joyce Meyers books, as well as Dale Sides that I have yet to read.
Vacation's coming...
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johniam
quote: Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of people taking a legitimate topic and derailing it to serve their own agenda which may or may not have a blasted thing to do with the topic at hand.
Excuse me, Waysider, but Rascal is the one who did this. Reread the thread.
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bowtwi
Books on my shelf awaiting my reading them:
They Shall Expel Demons by Derek Prince
Blessing or CUrse by Derek Prince
On Experiencing God's Power by Derek Prince
Believing God by Beth Moore
The D.L. Moody Collection, edited and compiled by James S. Bell, Jr.
I also have a couple Joyce Meyers books, as well as Dale Sides and a few others that I have yet to read.
Vacation's coming...
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WordWolf
O RLY?
Actually, I just picked up "the Dawkins Delusion" by Alister Mc Grath and Jonanna Collicutt Mc Grath.
It's got some wheels spinning.
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