I'm not giving up my OT studies, though someone suggested a thread doing some comparisons between Christianity and Judaism. I've been thinking about taking a peek at the gospels in that light anyway. But I don't want to derail this thread, so onward we go. :D
It seems clear to me that some of the verses you quoted are talking about physical death (sleep): 1 Cor. 11:30, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:10; and others are talking about sleep in the sense of not being vigilant: Rom. 13:11, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:7. No doubt there are other references as well.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
how about die? what is it talking about?
KJV: Ro 14:8
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
KJV: 1 Co 15:22
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
KJV: 1 Co 15:31
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
KJV: 1 Co 15:36
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
KJV: 2 Co 7:3
3I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.
KJV: Php 1:21
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Yes, to sleep in the sense of not being awake or alert either physically or mentally. It still seems clear just in the verses you have quoted that in most cases that the word 'sleep' is being used firuratively; either as a metaphor for lack of mental alertness or death.
Jesus won't be bringing "dead" people. He will be bringing those born again "new bodies." When you are born again you receive a new "creature" so to speak -- that's what is perfect and blameless before God. Our physical bodies will remain -- it's our holy spirit bodies that will go to heaven.
Jesus won't be bringing "dead" people. He will be bringing those born again "new bodies." When you are born again you receive a new "creature" so to speak -- that's what is perfect and blameless before God. Our physical bodies will remain -- it's our holy spirit bodies that will go to heaven.
People will never live in heaven, we will live in the kingdom on earth, ruled by Jesus christ as KIng.
this earth will be restored to the type God created before the fall.
no it isnt going to be a butch of ghosts riding in the sky. it will be us who we are today and unbelievers(natural people as twi called them) they will be born and they will die and they will be given the oppurtunity to believe in the KIng as LORD, They will be in the kingdom! until death will be destroyed after the thousand years reign of Jesus Christ.
then it will be his people us as we are today living forever with jobs and positions and the temple will be there in Jerusalem, yes the same city that is here today.
much is written about our future and heaven is used ONLY for God and Jesus Christ.
their will be a period of time when He calls us up to the AIR, but not heaven.. then we will come down with HIM to this earth restored to paradise .
we will know one another , we will recognize one another , it will be us the very ones people bodies personalities God created before the foundation of the earth.
I recommend reading a paperback book called The Blessed Hope. Subtitle: "A biblical study of the Second Advent and the Rapture"
It's by George Eldon Ladd
The idea of a pre-Tribulation "secret" coming, or Rapture, is a dispensationalist teaching. Quite recent. Christ coming FOR his saints and then WITH them. Doesn't hold water. Good discussion on parousia, etc.
I think the term "heaven" conveys the meaning of "that which is above us." In that sense, we will "go to heaven," where there will be no sun, for God Himself will be our light. But this heaven will be on earth. Paradise restored. Redemption complete. Justice and mercy administered, God's way. It's a happy thought.
I recommend reading a paperback book called The Blessed Hope. Subtitle: "A biblical study of the Second Advent and the Rapture"
It's by George Eldon Ladd
The idea of a pre-Tribulation "secret" coming, or Rapture, is a dispensationalist teaching. Quite recent. Christ coming FOR his saints and then WITH them. Doesn't hold water. Good discussion on parousia, etc.
Okay. Ask yourself then how a Marcionite living in the second century - who held that Jesus was not a representative of the Old Testament God, but believed that He originated from a new God unforeseen and unprophesied of the Hebrew scriptures - might have construed these Pauline passages in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor.15:50f.
Last year, I had slapped together a brief outline considering how Marcion might have interpreted 1 Thess. 4 in context of his teaching on "two messiahs",
Though concerning the different 'comings' of the Lord.
1. As a thief in the night
2. My first post, taking into consideration this article.
It seems that most of these people think it is for the whole world at once.
Thus ending this present world and beginning a new one for all.
I do believe this happens on an individual basis. Not everyone at once.
And we will have this dead old man to deal with.
As expressed in Matthew. An individual occurrence
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
the one shall be taken, and the other left
Doesn't mean that the other is left out forever. It doesn't say this.
Nor does it say where the one taken is taken to.
Or that this is a world wide event including all people.
Enter 1 Thess 4 or as a thief. Either one.
And the new will be seen, yet there is more to see then at first glance.
Considering the mount of transfiguration can be enlightening if it's real.
And not some kind of movie made for those that saw it.
Both 'as a thief' and 'in the air' do not designate any kind of time interval between them nor does it say that both will not happen to the same person.
Concerning the wrath to come. There will be wrath to deal with and escape. We have escaped the wrath to come, does not mean we will not be involved. It is coming. Written plain as day. It says we have escaped it and been delivered from it. But it doesn't say we will not witness this wrath. Our appointment is not with wrath, nor is it something to be afraid of. The spiritual eye seeing the 'flesh and blood' receive this wrath and the enmity, the carnal mind, being abolished before the eye. And the inheritance that is ours and yours that has been promised. Why can it be promised? Because it is already there waiting for the eyes to open to it with new eyes and new ears that can hear and see what Jesus was talking about when he said having eyes and ears you see not nor hear.
I think this is John the baptist praising these people rather then reproving them here in Luke.
7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Which is exactly what is, has and will continue to happen, stones being raised as children.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son 'that would be the individual' also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
-bold print and words put in by me. Italics to point it out...
-that God may be all in all-
He already is but now it is being seen..............
Even after being awake, one can fall asleep.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
This one reason I don't think it's talking about graveyard dead, waiting for some 'return'.
In 1 Thess 4.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Yeah 'appear'...can continue to appear more and more, magnifying God. Even on and off. At the Lords will, and even as we seek it, we will find. Getting all things new.
Physical Death has been defeated, so I don't think It's talking about physical death which is simply changing...again.
A mountain of scriptures start piling up I believe.
This one reason I don't think it's talking about graveyard dead, waiting for some 'return'.
In 1 Thess 4.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Yeah 'appear'...can continue to appear more and more, magnifying God. Even on and off. At the Lords will, and even as we seek it, we will find. Getting all things new.
Physical Death has been defeated, so I don't think It's talking about physical death which is simply changing...again.
Thank you for the kind words Clay.
When my parents passed away these past couple years, their leaving was so sudden, "in a twinkling of an eye" - as if their spirits had been snatched out of their worn-out bodies.
Did they completely die , or were they instantaneously transported into a different world or dimension?
One second you're in this world, and at the batting of an eyelid - you and everything around you has changed.
No problem , Danny many that are still living have seen this very spiritual life. Though it won't be on TV or broadcasted to the general public. They would of course think it's nuts. To be able to see, though not as clearly as one would like, that which we are in truth without all this temporal carnal baggage.
To search for this, one must look outside of the 'normal' thinking of religion and philosophy and into words that don't appear to be saying much of anything. But they do, right there in plain sight. And when the time comes, either here or after this present life, we will see, and continue to see more.
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Abigail
Very cool CMan. I just may have to dig out a NT and start reading again :)
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cman
lol..Abi..Don't be goin gospel on me now!..lol
I love the input you have been giving.
I need it, that's for sure.
The NT is in the OT as well.
And the OT is in the NT.
Heck we got it all.
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Abigail
LOL - Okay, twist my arm! hehehehe
I'm not giving up my OT studies, though someone suggested a thread doing some comparisons between Christianity and Judaism. I've been thinking about taking a peek at the gospels in that light anyway. But I don't want to derail this thread, so onward we go. :D
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Jeaniam
It seems clear to me that some of the verses you quoted are talking about physical death (sleep): 1 Cor. 11:30, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:10; and others are talking about sleep in the sense of not being vigilant: Rom. 13:11, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:7. No doubt there are other references as well.
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cman
how about sleep in the sense of not being awake?
in all the verses
what is death anyway? whether living or dead
what is dead?
what does it mean to die?
KJV: Ro 6:4
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
how about die? what is it talking about?
KJV: Ro 14:8
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
KJV: 1 Co 15:22
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
KJV: 1 Co 15:31
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
KJV: 1 Co 15:36
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
KJV: 2 Co 7:3
3I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.
KJV: Php 1:21
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
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Jeaniam
Yes, to sleep in the sense of not being awake or alert either physically or mentally. It still seems clear just in the verses you have quoted that in most cases that the word 'sleep' is being used firuratively; either as a metaphor for lack of mental alertness or death.
Death is the state of not being alive.
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cman
Yes, and if so, why would Jesus bring a bunch of dead people with him when he comes?
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Outfield
Jesus won't be bringing "dead" people. He will be bringing those born again "new bodies." When you are born again you receive a new "creature" so to speak -- that's what is perfect and blameless before God. Our physical bodies will remain -- it's our holy spirit bodies that will go to heaven.
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cman
I think you become a new creation, being born again, as a process.
Who Jesus brings, when he comes, are those that are dead to this world, but not to the new one.
It's not one day your not born again and the next you are.
Passing from death to life. The word 'passing' implies a journey or progression.
Can be fast or slow, depends on you and the Lord.
But all will pass.
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pond
People will never live in heaven, we will live in the kingdom on earth, ruled by Jesus christ as KIng.
this earth will be restored to the type God created before the fall.
no it isnt going to be a butch of ghosts riding in the sky. it will be us who we are today and unbelievers(natural people as twi called them) they will be born and they will die and they will be given the oppurtunity to believe in the KIng as LORD, They will be in the kingdom! until death will be destroyed after the thousand years reign of Jesus Christ.
then it will be his people us as we are today living forever with jobs and positions and the temple will be there in Jerusalem, yes the same city that is here today.
much is written about our future and heaven is used ONLY for God and Jesus Christ.
their will be a period of time when He calls us up to the AIR, but not heaven.. then we will come down with HIM to this earth restored to paradise .
we will know one another , we will recognize one another , it will be us the very ones people bodies personalities God created before the foundation of the earth.
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cman
Well that sucks, if it's true.
But I don't think it is.
Have you ever seen 'heaven' pond to know if anyone is there now?
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anotherDan
I recommend reading a paperback book called The Blessed Hope. Subtitle: "A biblical study of the Second Advent and the Rapture"
It's by George Eldon Ladd
The idea of a pre-Tribulation "secret" coming, or Rapture, is a dispensationalist teaching. Quite recent. Christ coming FOR his saints and then WITH them. Doesn't hold water. Good discussion on parousia, etc.
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cman
^^
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anotherDan
I think the term "heaven" conveys the meaning of "that which is above us." In that sense, we will "go to heaven," where there will be no sun, for God Himself will be our light. But this heaven will be on earth. Paradise restored. Redemption complete. Justice and mercy administered, God's way. It's a happy thought.
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TheInvisibleDan
Okay. Ask yourself then how a Marcionite living in the second century - who held that Jesus was not a representative of the Old Testament God, but believed that He originated from a new God unforeseen and unprophesied of the Hebrew scriptures - might have construed these Pauline passages in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor.15:50f.
Last year, I had slapped together a brief outline considering how Marcion might have interpreted 1 Thess. 4 in context of his teaching on "two messiahs",
http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/1Thess2lords.htm
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cman
I believe it says heaven is in us. But not limited to in us.
Plenty of scriptures, too many to post.
J. the C. pointing it out a few times.
Thanks Danny,
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Must be something more. And I do not believe anyone is left out.
Spirit is there from the 'beginning'.
For some it sleeps within, Dead but full of life awaiting to be awakened.
One does not have to die as in graveyard dead to see it.
Some will have to thou......
And many things must die in order to see it. Even Now.
The temporal that is seen opposed to that which is not seen.
But when seen it flows together.
"And there appeared" doesn't mean that it wasn't always there.
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cman
I like that article Danny, just caught that edit before I head to work.
Thanks.
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cman
Made it through the article.
Though concerning the different 'comings' of the Lord.
1. As a thief in the night
2. My first post, taking into consideration this article.
It seems that most of these people think it is for the whole world at once.
Thus ending this present world and beginning a new one for all.
I do believe this happens on an individual basis. Not everyone at once.
And we will have this dead old man to deal with.
As expressed in Matthew. An individual occurrence
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Doesn't mean that the other is left out forever. It doesn't say this.
Nor does it say where the one taken is taken to.
Or that this is a world wide event including all people.
Enter 1 Thess 4 or as a thief. Either one.
And the new will be seen, yet there is more to see then at first glance.
Considering the mount of transfiguration can be enlightening if it's real.
And not some kind of movie made for those that saw it.
Both 'as a thief' and 'in the air' do not designate any kind of time interval between them nor does it say that both will not happen to the same person.
Concerning the wrath to come. There will be wrath to deal with and escape. We have escaped the wrath to come, does not mean we will not be involved. It is coming. Written plain as day. It says we have escaped it and been delivered from it. But it doesn't say we will not witness this wrath. Our appointment is not with wrath, nor is it something to be afraid of. The spiritual eye seeing the 'flesh and blood' receive this wrath and the enmity, the carnal mind, being abolished before the eye. And the inheritance that is ours and yours that has been promised. Why can it be promised? Because it is already there waiting for the eyes to open to it with new eyes and new ears that can hear and see what Jesus was talking about when he said having eyes and ears you see not nor hear.
I think this is John the baptist praising these people rather then reproving them here in Luke.
7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Which is exactly what is, has and will continue to happen, stones being raised as children.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son 'that would be the individual' also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
-bold print and words put in by me. Italics to point it out...
-that God may be all in all-
He already is but now it is being seen..............
Even after being awake, one can fall asleep.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
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cman
This one reason I don't think it's talking about graveyard dead, waiting for some 'return'.
In 1 Thess 4.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Col 3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Yeah 'appear'...can continue to appear more and more, magnifying God. Even on and off. At the Lords will, and even as we seek it, we will find. Getting all things new.
Physical Death has been defeated, so I don't think It's talking about physical death which is simply changing...again.
A mountain of scriptures start piling up I believe.
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TheInvisibleDan
Thank you for the kind words Clay.
When my parents passed away these past couple years, their leaving was so sudden, "in a twinkling of an eye" - as if their spirits had been snatched out of their worn-out bodies.
Did they completely die , or were they instantaneously transported into a different world or dimension?
One second you're in this world, and at the batting of an eyelid - you and everything around you has changed.
Danny
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cman
No problem , Danny many that are still living have seen this very spiritual life. Though it won't be on TV or broadcasted to the general public. They would of course think it's nuts. To be able to see, though not as clearly as one would like, that which we are in truth without all this temporal carnal baggage.
To search for this, one must look outside of the 'normal' thinking of religion and philosophy and into words that don't appear to be saying much of anything. But they do, right there in plain sight. And when the time comes, either here or after this present life, we will see, and continue to see more.
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