I'm coming out

[bulwinkl]

either Sour Cream or Cottage Cheese but not both I made that mistake once LOL

Edited August 18, 2007 by bulwinkl

[doojable]

either Sour Cream or Cottage Cheese but not both I made that mistke once LOL

Then it wasn't pizza - it was some concoction that resembled pizza in shape only. Some mutation devised by the enemy to lull you into a state of acceptance... <_<

[bulwinkl]

either Sour Cream or Cottage Cheese but not both I made that mistake once LOL

I was tring to impress the wife when I was dating her. So I bought a large with everything including pineapple, alfafa sprouts, Sour Cream , and cottage Cheese. wasn't too tasty to say the least.

[doojable]

I was tring to impress the wife when I was dating her. So I bought a large with everything including pineapple, alfafa sprouts, Sour Cream , and cottage Cheese. wasn't too tasty to say the least.

<_< She must be very forgiving....

That, or she has a great sense of humor...

[bulwinkl]

My foibles (what a great word) does keep her laughing.

[Seth R.]

Thanks for the lively discussion, I'd love to continue to talk off this board with those who are free-thinkers, I'll be in touch.

You maybe interested in www.ted.com an awesome site. Also "What the *bleep* do we know?" is a great DVD worth buying.

Here's an interesting interview.

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/acharayas.html

Seth

[Bramble]

Well, that pizza doesn't sound too bad to me.

But then I once had sauerkraut & sausage pizza, and I liked it.

Seth--a long time ago on a different GSC board there was a long discussion-- the Agnostics at the back table. It was a lively discussion that really got me thinking. Maybe something like that will happen again someday.

[Bluzeman]

Hey, I used to love the Agnostic table. I thought it was called the Athiest table though. I enjoyed the discussions except for the posters who had to act like jerks. On BOTH sides, not just the Christian side and not just the A* side.

Rick

[J0nny Ling0]

"free-thinkers"

Edited August 23, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[wrdsandwrks]

I was in a Barnes and Noble store with my (15 year old) son last June and we were both browsing. He came over to me and said, “Mom, look, there’s the Atheist’s Bible on a table labeled “Gifts for grads””.

I said something like, “What a great graduation gift for some young person just starting out on the road to where?, Here’s something to help you along. By the way, there’s no God, nothing to live for, no absolutes to help you make decisions about what’s right and wrong, no hope for the world. Oh yeah, “Have a nice life.” What a great gift.”

Not trying to put anyone down here, I’m just thankful that I have something better than that to give to my son.

[Mister P-Mosh]

By the way, there’s no God, nothing to live for, no absolutes to help you make decisions about what’s right and wrong, no hope for the world. Oh yeah, “Have a nice life.

Atheists don't believe in gods. The rest of your post is describing sociopathy, a trait that isn't specific to any religion or lack of religion. I've known plenty of atheists with strong morals and plenty of Christians that only pretend to have morals.

[Bluzeman]

I was in a Barnes and Noble store with my (15 year old) son last June and we were both browsing. He came over to me and said, “Mom, look, there’s the Atheist’s Bible on a table labeled “Gifts for grads””.

I said something like, “What a great graduation gift for some young person just starting out on the road to where?, Here’s something to help you along. By the way, there’s no God, nothing to live for, no absolutes to help you make decisions about what’s right and wrong, no hope for the world. Oh yeah, “Have a nice life.” What a great gift.”

Not trying to put anyone down here, I’m just thankful that I have something better than that to give to my son.

That was such a messed up post I don't even know where to start. So you have to believe in God to be a good person and treat other people right? You have to believe in God to raise your children to be good people? I think not.

See, I'm a Christian but it's those kind of attitudes that give's ALL Christians a bad name.

And I realize you said you weren't trying to put anyone down. As I am not trying to put YOU down. Just stating an opinion.

Rick

[GarthP2000]

Wrdsandwrks,

Not trying to put anyone down here, ...

Oh like hell you weren't. You evidently believe that atheists don't have anything to live for, have morals, ethics, yadayada. Yet you can bet your bottom dollar that if any atheist have said something similar about Christians, you would have been offended. <_<

Edited August 23, 2007 by GarthP2000

[Seth R.]

I was in a Barnes and Noble store with my (15 year old) son last June and we were both browsing. He came over to me and said, “Mom, look, there’s the Atheist’s Bible on a table labeled “Gifts for grads””.

I said something like, “What a great graduation gift for some young person just starting out on the road to where?, Here’s something to help you along. By the way, there’s no God, nothing to live for, no absolutes to help you make decisions about what’s right and wrong, no hope for the world. Oh yeah, “Have a nice life.” What a great gift.”

Not trying to put anyone down here, I’m just thankful that I have something better than that to give to my son.

Hi, I wonder if you ever *really* thought about how you would live your life if you found out irrefutable proof there is no god. O.K. now think, this a hypothetical scenario, there are no right or wrong answers, you just have to answer for yourself not any one else. Would you change how you live today? Some of us have changed our attitudes about what we think really is important, and found comfort in what we can experience today, rather then the promise of future rewards.

The picture painted by fundamentalists of Atheists is worse then the one they paint for Muslims, Jews and even satan worshipers. The mind boggles over the facts of the matter, but for most fundies facts never matter, it's only how they feel, and a lot of the time the hair on the back of their neck stands up when confronted by people who don't believe in god.

Seth

[T-Bone]

That is very interesting thought, Seth! It makes me wonder about a lot of things. What would I change about the way I live and interact with people? I dunno…That’s a tough one for me to ferret out. I believe I’m basically a good person – but that’s just my opinion ….How much of what motivates me, what is important to me is intrinsic to my being and how much did I assimilate? Geez, I’m not a psyche or philosophy major and wouldn’t know where to begin. I will say this for any religion – because I fall prey to it myself many times – it seems like religious folks have more of a tendency to be hypocrites – which I see as one is not being true to their own stated beliefs….Great post, Seth!!!!!!

[wrdsandwrks]

Hi, I wonder if you ever *really* thought about how you would live your life if you found out irrefutable proof there is no god. O.K. now think, this a hypothetical scenario, there are no right or wrong answers, you just have to answer for yourself not any one else. Would you change how you live today? Some of us have changed our attitudes about what we think really is important, and found comfort in what we can experience today, rather then the promise of future rewards.

Hi Seth, That's a good and fair question. It's not too far of stretch for me to imagine this because at one point in my life I was a committed atheist. Thank you for asking this question, I had to stop and really think back because I hadn't thought about this for years. At the time I wasn't much older than my son. I had my favorite Shakespeare quote posted on the wall of my room where I could look at it every day, it was a perfect statement of my worldview:

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,

Creeps in this petty pace from day to day

To the last syllable of recorded time,

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

And then is heard no more: it is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

Really, I hadn't thought about this for years and years, but I remember staring at this post on my wall and thinking about how all the people in this world are nothing more than rats scurrying around like parasites on this earth and how it would be better for all involved if they had never evolved. I wanted to die.

I went from being a straight A+ student in High School to being expelled for drug use.

I had an abusive boyfriend and I had no idea how to stand up to him or to get out of the relationship.

My mother had cancer and I had no idea what to do about it.

My brother was suffering from schizophrenia and all I could do to help him was to "drop acid" with him. Trust me it didn't help.

I started selling drugs to my friends, neighbors were telling my parents that there were narcotics agents watching my house.

I had a friend who was teaching me the best way to shoplift.

I sold a stolen bicycle to a friend, her parents called the cops. While my mom was recovering from surgery she had to come out of bed and talk to the police detectives who were investigating a bicycle theft ring.

I could go on but I'm getting sick just thinking about how awful that time in my life was. Shortly after the bicycle thing I got born again and my life changed drastically. I can truly cry tears of thankfulness right now because God didn't leave me alone in my despair, but He so graciously reached down and brought me up and out of every wrong thing, and put me on a path of life. My life became an adventure and worth living. I no longer felt like a parasite with no purpose. I got out of that abusive relationship. I quit drugs and stealing.

I'm certainly not saying that all atheists are drug users, law-breakers, depressed etc. Don't even mean to imply it, because I don't believe that, but you asked my to imagine what my life would be like as an atheist. That's the way it was. I can't even imagine where I would be today if God hadn't graciously touched me and rescued when He did.

I came to my atheistic beliefs through reading. I was a prolific reader and I started reading philosophy. I read Wm. James, Castaneda, Darwin, Alduous Huxley... I think this is why I reacted so strongly when I saw The Atheist Bible being promoted as a graduation gift. Don't tell me that atheists aren't proseletyzing.

I WAS REALLY thankful that I have the gift of faith to give to my son. If that offends people well so be it.

Again Seth, thanks for the question. It really did make me think.

The picture painted by fundamentalists of Atheists is worse then the one they paint for Muslims, Jews and even satan worshipers. The mind boggles over the facts of the matter, but for most fundies facts never matter, it's only how they feel, and a lot of the time the hair on the back of their neck stands up when confronted by people who don't believe in god.

Seth

[Seth R.]

A little thought provoking media: http://www.truthbeknown.com/Zeitgeist-Rense.mp3

Seth

[Bramble]

There are many people in many faiths that go through downward spirals in life, depression, drugs etc. I personally went through a pretty grim time after my TWI born again experience was part of my life for many years. I'm in a good place now, and very thankful.

*Shrug*--people do not all have the same spiritual/non spiritual experiences in life. What motivates one person to become a Christian, might motivate another to choose a different belief or no belief system.

I don't think making your own experience with spiritual matters the model for what all other people will experience works at all.

[Oakspear]

Good point Bramble...although Seth asked folks to imagine if they found irefutable proof that there is no God, not imagine if you were an atheist, slightly different things. It would be a hard thing to do IMHO, because even the atheists among us don't have irefutable proof.

People tend to take their own experiences and points of view and project them outward. A committed theist might be able to imagine life as an atheist, but imagine that life without God would be empty and therefore full of bad and depressing things; an atheist might imagine that life as a theist would be one of blindly following myths and legends, unable to think for oneself...both because that's how they believe that the other side thinks and feels.

For those like wrdsandwrks who turned their life around through a faith in God: while I have no problem believing that religion can be a factor in turning someone's life around, and consider it very unlikely that such a person would go back to atheism, I also consider it unlikely that in the hypothetical situation that Seth described, that a happy, well-adjusted, moral, loving person would suddenly revert to a depressed druggie with no will to love. (Of course that's just my opinion, since we'll never know...we'll never prove or disprove the existance of God or gods, will we?)

People who decide to improve their lot often associate what they surrounded themselves with during the bad times with the bad times, i.e. an atheist turned Christian might associate atheism with their sad lot pre-conversion; a religious person turned atheist might blame religion for their previous problems, it's all in the perspective.

[Seth R.]

People who decide to improve their lot often associate what they surrounded themselves with during the bad times with the bad times, i.e. an atheist turned Christian might associate atheism with their sad lot pre-conversion; a religious person turned atheist might blame religion for their previous problems, it's all in the perspective.

There is also a third perspective, those of us who were happy before someone told us there is a God to follow, we then tried to the best of our ability to follow that God. Wallowed in self-pity for a number of years because we just didn't seem to be believing strong enough, turned to another tradition that was shunned by our old god, found it agreed with our old god's world view. Then out of frustration remembered how happy we were (before we were told how unhappy we were) without God, and decided to become Atheist "again".

Something else wonderful happens, no god, then no devil, no heaven to hope for, but no hell to fear of. Ethics become less complicated, if a person does bad things they are a bad person, if a person does good things they are a good person, no more confusing ideas like if a person does good works but isn't born again then the good works don't count, or a murderer who is born again still is going to heaven. A whole bunch of logically weird and contradictory ideas just become invalid.

At least that's my perspective in a nutshell, I'm not interested in converting people, that's to much work I'd have followers then and I don't have time for that. I'm only interested in offering things for people to think about, I mean I spent so much of my time defending the faith blindly, I wonder how many others do the same.

I remember one day deciding to look up the biblical references to the red-thread you know what Jesus was suppose to be in each book of the bible. To my frustration I couldn't find all the references either in the Strong's or the Young's so the books I didn't see an obvious reference I began reading to see if there was a theme, I couldn't find one. This was the beginning of my dissolution, and that was 12-15 years ago. There were also many other topics I found near impossible to find that VPW taught. In my opinion there is a great amount of cognitive dissonance in the fundamentalist Christian mind because there is in my experience an overwhelming amount of internalized tension between what I as a Christian felt should be and the way things really are, it was maddening. I know I'm not unique, so in some sense I'm speaking to those who feel it, but are having trouble putting a finger on it. My message is "it's OK to question authority, even God's authority".

BTW, I actually developed a problem with alcohol while I was in TWI, go figure.

Thanks,

Seth

Edited August 27, 2007 by Seth R.

[bulwinkl]

Found an interesting article/interview on Salon. It's with Freeman Dyson which some of the science fiction afficiando's might realize was the originator of the Dyson Sphere.

the URL is

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/09...s&aim=salon

it's a little OT but only a little.