I'm coming out

[GarthP2000]

Perhaps what shouldn't be belittled is the person holding the beliefs, rather than the belief itself. ... Think about that distinction for a moment, Rick (and others here).

See, for a lot of us unbelievers, the concepts we now reject ARE ridiculous to us. Ie., The concept of believing in an invisible entity, and that mainly because of faith (ie., no proof), and that we would become vile, sinful, and hellbound if we don't. Or the premise of something being true simply because it is presupposed to be so, and that whatever scientific evidence that contradicts it must be rejected. ... You know, stuff like that.

There are a LOT of religious/spiritual concepts out there that we atheists/unbelievers now regard as out-to-lunch, flawed, bunk, ie., UNTRUE and, as many humans are wont to do, we consider the things that are untrue to be LIES. ... JUST as ALL of you Christians regard atheist concepts re: God as LIES (Yes you do. Yes you do!) and you folks are unapologetic in saying so, many times. I've seen that here time and time again, particularly amongst the most orthodox of Christians who often portray a malevolent attitude towards atheists/heretics. And like I said, you get a taste of that yourself, and you find it offensive.

[Abigail]

Thanks for the explanation Garth.

You know, you say this is a little taste of what you go through and that may be so, But I have never walked into a lions den dressed like a sheep wearing musk aftershave. I'm happy for him having the guts to come out but I think he chose the wrong venue to do such.

Says who? You? When did Paw die and leave you in charge????? And when was this place converted from a cafe to a lions den?????

I was at a boys Eagle Scout court of honor three years ago and at the end of his speech he came out as an athiest. Now the scouts require a belief in God, whether it be a triune, Hindu, judaic or tupperware God it makes no difference, the scouts in thier scout law have one called reverent. Well they had already given the boy his award (He lied on his application by saying yes he believed in God as he knows him) so they couldn't take that away but they did put through something on his file that he will never again be allowed to be a leader or a part of a scout organization until he can truthfully say he believes in a God. Wrong venue for coming out? i'd say so.

this aint the boy's scouts either, in case ya hadn't noticed :blink:

Perhaps what shouldn't be belittled is the person holding the beliefs, rather than the belief itself. ... Think about that distinction for a moment, Rick (and others here).

See, for a lot of us unbelievers, the concepts we now reject ARE ridiculous to us. Ie., The concept of believing in an invisible entity, and that mainly because of faith (ie., no proof), and that we would become vile, sinful, and hellbound if we don't. Or the premise of something being true simply because it is presupposed to be so, and that whatever scientific evidence that contradicts it must be rejected. ... You know, stuff like that.

There are a LOT of religious/spiritual concepts out there that we atheists/unbelievers now regard as out-to-lunch, flawed, bunk, ie., UNTRUE and, as many humans are wont to do, we consider the things that are untrue to be LIES. ... JUST as ALL of you Christians regard atheist concepts re: God as LIES (Yes you do. Yes you do!) and you folks are unapologetic in saying so, many times. I've seen that here time and time again, particularly amongst the most orthodox of Christians who often portray a malevolent attitude towards atheists/heretics. And like I said, you get a taste of that yourself, and you find it offensive.

Garth, there are also a lot of religious people around the forums who have been very respectful of your choice.

It is possible to disagree with the notion of a God and even speak of such disagreement in a respectful manner. And honestly, do you really want to stoop the the level of the very people who have so offended you? How is that in any way better?

Sheeesh, I feel like I am talking to my kids now. I am constantly reminding one of them that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Bolshevik]

. . . I am constantly reminding one of them that two wrongs don't make a right.

But three left turns make a right.

[GarthP2000]

"But M-M-o-m-m, ... he started it!!!!"

[Bluzeman]

this aint the boy's scouts either, in case ya hadn't noticed :blink:

I should say not! And if it WERE the boy scouts, just how the heck did you get in Abi? I mean, I've seen your pictures. You sure aint' no boy!

Just kiddding with ya!

Garth, you said:

JUST as ALL of you Christians regard atheist concepts re: God as LIES (Yes you do. Yes you do!) and you folks are unapologetic in saying so, many times.

No I don't! No I don't! Na-na-na-na-na! :)

But seriously, I DON'T think that what other's believe are lies. For all I know, everything that I believe could be wrong, but it's what I believe. But I'm SURE not going to call anyone else a liar for what they believe.

"But M-M-o-m-m, ... he started it!!!!"

Huh uh, HE started it!

Rick

Edited August 17, 2007 by Bluzeman

[Out There]

hey abigail, just why did you originally come to this site? are you an ex-TWIer? or is it the stimulating discussion of Judiasm that led you here?

O.K. I give up. When did PAW die and leave me in charge? I never asked to be and don't think I am

PAW if you around maybe it is time to do a complete overhaul of the site and get rid of any and all past illusions to any faith and turn it into a think tank, just a suggestion

P.S. I still speak in tongues and believe that it is absolute proof that I have holy spirit in me.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Out There

[Bluzeman]

I really thought you were just kidding around Out There, but I guess I was wrong.

Abigail has been around the ex-way forums for a LONG time. At least ever since Mog21 had HIS forum (When WAS that Abi?)

She is a very good example of someone who's belief's differ totally from mine, yet I fully respect her belief's and would NEVER belittle them, or say that my belief's are "better" than hers. She has MANY times shown her character here and has NEVER been insulting to anyone who differs from her belief system.

So be nice!

Rick

[Out There]

Ok, I'm sorry Abigail, I never should have said those things to you.

[Mister P-Mosh]

Why ya always gotta go for the insults? Where did I say ID? I'm saying there's just not enough to fully convince me in common descent and some of the reasoning for it is silly, so therefore I can't rule out the possibility of a supernatural creator.

I don't view that as an insult. The view that you had mentioned you had seemed to be in line with intelligent design. I certainly don't view people that believe in ID as idiots, even though I think it's wrong. Also, this conversation really has nothing to do with evolution. One form of ID is that Yahweh invented evolution as a process during creation. If I were a creationist, that would make sense because as a computer programmer I'd prefer to write a script to do something rather than do it myself.

Bonobos (pygmy chimps, not really chimps though) are known to have female dominated societies where the males are kept in check. Their solution to everything is sex. Have a disagreement? Sex. Saying hello? Sex. Hungry? Sex. Bored? Sex. Horny?

Males with males, girls with girls, young with old, it don't matter.

Despite how much that would benefit my views for it to be true, I've heard recently that it isn't completely true. Wild bonobos don't exhibit that behavior. Those observations were taken on bonobos in captivity instead. Perhaps it's similar to the type of behaviors exhibited in prison.

[Larry N Moore]

I've been wanting to post this for a while now, but I was busy and I was still adjusting to it. It's been about a year since I dumped the dogma, I feel cleaner and more free then I ever have, my friends even like me better!

I'm also now a humanist, a realist, and a better adjusted guy then I used to be.

I'd like to say more about it but I need to get to bed I have my therapist in the morning.

Seth

P.S. google zeitgeist movie, watch it, it will blow your mind.

Did you get your manual in the mail yet? Make sure you study it diligently (to be approved before your fellow atheists). :)

I'm just curious Seth. Why did you feel compelled to announce your "coming out of the closet" on GS? Were you looking for support or an argument or both?

[Abigail]

Ok, I'm sorry Abigail, I never should have said those things to you.

No problem Out there. I came at you with both barrells and I know it. But the point I was trying to make is no where does it say these forums are for Christians only. Not once has this place ever been promoted as that. If I thought for one second GSC was for Christians only I probably wouldn't spend much time here. Not because I have a problem with Christians, but because it wouldn't necessarily be the appropriate site for me.

There are people here from all over the spectrum - numerous branches of Christianity, pagan, jews, athiests and agnostics are the ones that come to mind. There may very well be others who aren't comfortable revealing that personal part of their lives.

I came here because this was an EX-TWI website, not a Christian websit and not a non-Christian Website. Now you can argue Wayfers were Christian, but I suspect there are some who would argue in return that what TWI taught was not Christianity but was a made-up as it went along religion.

My initial interest in this place had nothing to do with religion - it had to do with coming to understand that there were thousands of people who experienced something very similar to what I experienced while in TWI. It had to do with discovering I wasn't alone out here.

My interest in doctrinal issues came later. Over my time here, which encompasses about 7 years and I think 3 different servers/versions of Greasespot, I have considered myself Christian, agnostic, pagan, and now I have returned to my roots of Judaism. I have no idea where my path will lead me down the road. Likewise no one, not even Seth, can say for a certainty what he will believe 10 years from now.

Never, Ever, Ever do I want to see this place become one that is exclusive to one religion, one set of beliefs.

[Sudo]

Out There,

Are you getting the message now that this is not a Christian forum? As far as your comments to me I'll just let them slide for now but I'm curious as to whether or not you're going to stick around. How was it you put it?? You were offended by non-Christian viewpoints?

sudo

[Out There]

Folks, I am going to retract my posts. I fell that what I had to say and wanted to say became so convoluted (by me) that it was lost and there is no benefit to anyone, it doesn't glorify God in any way and shows what a A$$ ole I can be.;

For those that read my posts I hope you can forgive me.

[Out There]

Sudo , Yes I am going to stick around. I have retracted my posts (Deleted them really) But I don't ever recall saying I was offended by Non-Christian viewpoints

[Seth R.]

Did you get your manual in the mail yet? Make sure you study it diligently (to be approved before your fellow atheists). :)

I'm just curious Seth. Why did you feel compelled to announce your "coming out of the closet" on GS? Were you looking for support or an argument or both?

Hi Larry, LOL! I was looking for stimulating conversation, and boy did I get it. It's hard to capture my motives, but maybe to clear the air as to who I am now, why I post the opinions I do. I suppose if people read my posts assuming I'm a Christian they might be confused and think that's not very Christian of him. Of course the last 6 years I've been non-Christian here, I still think of myself as Buddhist because Buddhists don't need to believe in a god.

I'm not surprised that people came out in force, especially after I said a few inflammatory things, but I'm not going to recant. The reason is because I just said in a very blunt way what I would have said in more diplomatic terms, except I made my point allot quicker, and people did get it.

Seth

[Bluzeman]

We get it Seth. You think it's OK to insult and belittle other people's belief's. Shows what an a$$ you are.

Rick

[Bluzeman]

I'm glad you get my point, I absolutely think it's OK to belittle someone for what they believe especially on spiritual matters, because eventually the truth may come out. If it's true then no amount of belittling will matter. Why should it matter what I say? If I'm wrong then so be it I am willing to take that risk.

So many people have taken advantage of others in the name of Christianity, it boggles the mind when you see it for what it is, not what it should be. This is the essence of the problem, the followers are taught this is how it should be, the leaders do what ever they want, and the few that complain are silenced. So it perpetuates itself because the followers talk about how it should be and everyone agrees, yes it should be this way, but it isn't so we need to work towards it being that way. A couple millenniums go by and it's still not the way it should be, but let's keep working at it, after all he's watching and is coming back soon, so you know just in case we better keep trying to make it the way it should be. All the while the leaders are still doing what ever they want to do, which by now is so mysterious nobody questions it, and if they do they are excommunicated.

I guess if nobody wants me to talk about the emperors clothes or that large Pachyderm in the living room I won't, nah forget that I'll still talk about it. I'm not a lemming I don't need to blindly follow a leader over a cliff, who made that guy the leader any way? I'm not saying I'm sorry for what I said or even how I said it.

Seth

Once again, I would like to ask everyone here, do you agree with this? That it's perfectly fine to belittle others for what they believe when it comes to spiritual matters?

Rick

[Larry N Moore]

Hi Larry, LOL! I was looking for stimulating conversation, and boy did I get it. It's hard to capture my motives, but maybe to clear the air as to who I am now, why I post the opinions I do. I suppose if people read my posts assuming I'm a Christian they might be confused and think that's not very Christian of him. Of course the last 6 years I've been non-Christian here, I still think of myself as Buddhist because Buddhists don't need to believe in a god.

I'm not surprised that people came out in force, especially after I said a few inflammatory things, but I'm not going to recant. The reason is because I just said in a very blunt way what I would have said in more diplomatic terms, except I made my point allot quicker, and people did get it.

Seth

Well, at least you recognize some of your comments were inflammatory. I don't see any reason why you should recant having said them, especially if you're just being honest with yourself and those who question you. Nor do I see where Out There should have deleted the contents of his posts. Both are just opinions.

Stimulating conversation is always welcomed -- at least for me. That's probably why I've spent most of my time on atheist's boards. Not that you can't get them on theist's boards but my experience on them has usually been that theists will try to get atheists banned when they don't know how to counter their arguments.

Now you make sure you study that manual I gave you real hard. ;)

[Seth R.]

Well, at least you recognize some of your comments were inflammatory. I don't see any reason why you should recant having said them, especially if you're just being honest with yourself and those who question you. Nor do I see where Out There should have deleted the contents of his posts. Both are just opinions.

Stimulating conversation is always welcomed -- at least for me. That's probably why I've spent most of my time on atheist's boards. Not that you can't get them on theist's boards but my experience on them has usually been that theists will try to get atheists banned when they don't know how to counter their arguments.

Now you make sure you study that manual I gave you real hard. ;)

So are you inviting me to play nice with the religious people? Well I certainly think on this big giant list where all types of things are discussed my little post about being an Atheist shouldn't upset the apple cart. In the interest of balance I think I could have said it better. Instead of lies I could have said insufficient evidence, um on the point religious people being cattle fat dumb and happy grazers I should have just said consumers. Oh, and about believing the bible is the will of god, instead of stupid I should have said a dubious claim.

IF the religious people are right I'll probably end up as Rick's house servant for all of eternity, which I would do gladly if once in a while he'd let me drive his gold plated Caddi.

I get passionate about things, sometimes I shoot from the hip,

But when I get down and dirty, I might forget to bite my lip.

Seth

P.S. got the manual love it bookmarked it.

[Larry N Moore]

So are you inviting me to play nice with the religious people?

Not at all. To your own self be true. I think if anything religious people should grow a thicker skin. They can always revert to the theological stance where Jesus stated they would be persecuted and just accept it. ;)

In the interest of balance I think I could have said it better.

Sure. If you're interested I could steer you towards some fine atheists who know how to say it better.

I get passionate about things, sometimes I shoot from the hip,

But when I get down and dirty, I might forget to bite my lip.

Nothing wrong with passion. I wish I had some of it myself. :)

P.S. got the manual love it bookmarked it.

Make sure you check out the links given on the page. :)

[Mister P-Mosh]

Seth, I think it's great you made such a decision for yourself, however I don't share your belief thats fine.

I don't know if you have noticed but not only is GS a group of ex-TWIers and a few others, but most importantly it is a group of Christians. Everybody who posts here posts as a Christian. We are pretty comfortable talking and even reproving one another (ie., Jonny and Cowgirl) because we are all part of one big family of Christians. I'm glad you are comfortable without hope and without God in this world. The rest of us here are not, And we found that the "little Baby Jesus" brought us hope and gave us a way to get back to God.

If you are not a Christian I don't believe you have any reason to post here any longer except to attempt to harass or to attempt to provoke us.

Seth, do us all a favor and sign off. go find a GS that is for athiest, you'll be much happier there. Don't come back here. People don't need to discuss such idiotic ideas. You are not doing anyone any service by posting here on this Christian site (same goes for any other Athiest who posts here)

This is complete nonsense. Unless you are a different account pawtucket registered, I've never seen this defined as a Christian site. I'm pretty sure it was set up for ALL ex-TWI folks and for those considering joining. As long as we follow the rules of politeness and respect privacy, we are welcome here. At least, that's what I remember from previous topics on whether or not GSCafe is a Christian site.

If this is a Christians-only club, then I better be banned now.

[Bluzeman]

Believe me P-Mosh, MOST Christians would ban me also, as I do not fit their description of a Christian.

Rick

[Mister P-Mosh]

OK, so there you have it folks. Seth say's it perfectly acceptable to belittle others for what they believe. How many agree with that?

Rick

For me it is perfectly acceptable to attack ideas, but it is wrong to attack people in most cases. It's one thing to say that the bible is a work of fiction, but it's an entirely different matter to say that Christians are idiots, for example. I think the ideas behind all religions or lack thereof should be up for discussion, even negatively. We just have to respect the people who believe the things we think are wrong, on a human level.

[Bluzeman]

For me it is perfectly acceptable to attack ideas, but it is wrong to attack people in most cases. It's one thing to say that the bible is a work of fiction, but it's an entirely different matter to say that Christians are idiots, for example. I think the ideas behind all religions or lack thereof should be up for discussion, even negatively. We just have to respect the people who believe the things we think are wrong, on a human level.

Exactly!

Rick

[GarthP2000]

Ditto to what P-Mosh has said.