Speaking in tongues

[waysider]

Hi TG

You don't seem at all harsh to me.

I don't personally get too hung up about doctrinal differences any more.

Before I got involved with TWI, it was my belief that God could convey a message to you through a sunset or the sound of a songbird or the aroma of ocean spray. Not a word-for-word kind of message, of course, just a kind of awareness or even an emotional sensation.

Then, when I got involved with The Way, I found out you're supposed to put Him in a box where you can talk to Him by SIT and He answers if you meet all the right conditions.(cough)

You don't need SIT to talk to God and He doesn't need it to talk to you.

That doesn't mean SIT is not real or that you shouldn't do it.

It just isn't the end-all answer to communicating with God that TWI taught us it was.

When you witness a baby being born, the sights, the sounds, the smells all combine to send some sort of wordless message to an innermost region of your being.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not "Oh Shanta's".

[TRIUNE_GOD]

trigodguy,

This forum has a long and ignoble history as a cruel and unusual town without pity.

Thank you for crying uncle.

Good luck on the forum.

I do not know about the past here, But I must say EVERYONE has been very nice to me.

With all due respect, I have had nothing but things said to me in a loving way here in this thread. And WE (in this Thread) all do not all agree on this, but we still come together and share what we think about this topic. They say like "I disagree" or "I do not see it that way" And anotherdan said to me "I would like to see what you got to say about the subject" after i told him i had another view point. That is love/Meekness manifesting (to me).

This is very biblical what we are doing here. There is so much of the Word on here WOW no matter what side you agree with, there is meat in this thread for all growth levels . Maybe God put all of here on this thread, for others to learn from. Or that we can disagree, and still love EA other NO MATTER WHAT.

"Come let us reason together"

Put yourself in my shoes how would you take someone that says to you

1) Your Wrong

2) Thank you for crying uncle.

So am I to take your word that it is "THEM" in this thread.

[TRIUNE_GOD]

Hi TG

You don't seem at all harsh to me.

I don't personally get too hung up about doctrinal differences any more.

Before I got involved with TWI, it was my belief that God could convey a message to you through a sunset or the sound of a songbird or the aroma of ocean spray. Not a word-for-word kind of message, of course, just a kind of awareness or even an emotional sensation.

Then, when I got involved with The Way, I found out you're supposed to put Him in a box where you can talk to Him by SIT and He answers if you meet all the right conditions.(cough)

You don't need SIT to talk to God and He doesn't need it to talk to you.

That doesn't mean SIT is not real or that you shouldn't do it.

It just isn't the end-all answer to communicating with God that TWI taught us it was.

When you witness a baby being born, the sights, the sounds, the smells all combine to send some sort of wordless message to an innermost region of your being.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not "Oh Shanta's".

Hi wayslider glad you wrote. I see you have a good head to think with lol lol Wow you have truly grew a bunch WOW

Before I got involved with TWI, it was my belief that God could convey a message to you through a sunset or the sound of a songbird or the aroma of ocean spray. Not a word-for-word kind of message, of course, just a kind of awareness or even an emotional sensation.

You say this it brings ROM. 1:20 to mind. And I think "God could convey a message by other means " by looking at that Verse it says just that.

And I have been what they call "prophesied to" many times over and over, in a group or single, and cannot remember but only a few. But when God tells me something IT STICKS and he has used a Semi truck, Radios, bird, Chickens, and ministers just teaching on a program or at a Church service.

God richly bless you my friend. Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and the Lord Christ Jesus.

[brideofjc]

You should look in your Greek closer, I see several problems. You said "Straight from the Greek" Imposable you left out a Def. Art. before the word "theon" in Sect b. And added another "the" in Sect A, and scrambled up

Sect. C.

When you are trans, you don't need to trans every article, otherwise it would become redundant in the English. Greek grammar requires that all nouns have an article before it, this is what provides the inflection within the language. The article and the noun must agree in tense, mood and gender. If you translated every single article it would be so boring you wouldn't be able to stand to read it in the English.

Ex: In (article added for clarity here) "the" beginning was THE word, and THE word was with THE God, and THE word was God.

Other verses are even worse than this one if you trans every article into English. Therefore, sometimes for clarity they are left out. It doesn't mean that you are ignoring them.

1) where is your word support for "the" in "in beginning" ?

clarity in the English. See above.

2) Why did you leave out the word "the" in " with THE God" ?

I just covered that above. Putting it into English is redundant, this is why it is left out by translators.

3) Why did you scramble up the words [you quoted] "and the Word was God" ?

They are not scrambled. "logos" has the article, while "theos" does not. Therefore, it is the primary noun and must come first in the trans.

4) Why did you put the word "een" [has always been] in the past tense ?

I didn't, John did via the HS. "nv (AIN)" is an imperfect active indicative 3rd sing. It is trans as a past tense without any definitive time. If the word had a definitive time then you would trans as "I was eating...WHEN" This would put a time marker on the word. Imperfect tense has no time markers. It only describes something that happened but doesn't tell you when."

If it is so easy why add, and scramble, and subtract, place in the wrong case, these words ??

Add and subtract for clarity on the articles. The Greek language because of its beauty and tendencies toward poetry often times required the so-called scrambling of it's words by its writers. The Greeks placed a weighty importance on the "hearing" of their language and so they would "scramble" if you will the words. They sometimes also put the most important aspect at the back of a sentence for "effect". Here, the last two words are THE WORD. When you know that John was arguing against gnosticism all of this makes sense.

here it is "from the Greek" putting "een" in the present tense, because we see it in past with your rendering and it is not either past or present in Greek.

In Beginning is the Word and the Word is with the God and God is the Word

This makes as much science as putting that word "een" in the past to me.

I'm going down your post, again read above. Imperfect is a "past". There is no such tense in the Greek that leaves it nebulous as to present and/or past. The Greek is a highly inflected language and it will either be in the present, past, future, perfect, pluperfect etc.

the reason this is so important because the inspired Dialect of the NT. is pure and spotless "Holy" "ios". in Set C, it makes the Word a Person. Therefore it is not a "written word" or a "word of speech", but "a person". Some sects has tried to dance around this for years and the word is very clear that "ho logos" in JN 1 is a person, the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. But this is another debate.

This verse "paraphrased" to ENG for a clear understanding of what is seen in the Greek, therefore It is not a Translation at all.

paraphrased would be something like this: "In the beginning was Jesus Christ and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." This is a paraphrase where you completely add entirely new words not in the Greek to make your point.

"BEFORE ANY BEGINNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WORD AND THE WORD HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH THEE GOD AND GOD HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WORD THIS PERSON HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN THE BEGINNING WITH THEE GOD."

Just what I see here. look at your Greek in this Verse, see what is going on here. You are a wise man and I really enjoy talking to you, Hope to hear form you after the Holidays. You should look this up in the Greek.

I know we got off topic here sorry :(

I did look at my Greek in my UBS4 edition, and I translated it the way it should be translated.

PS, I'm a woman.

God Bless

[TRIUNE_GOD]

Imperfect is a "past". There is no such tense in the Greek that leaves it nebulous as to present and/or past. The Greek is a highly inflected language and it will either be in the present, past, future, perfect, pluperfect etc.

In the Complete Word study New Testament With Greek Parallel PG 865 #44

"The Imperfect Tense is used only in the indicative mood. and refers to CONTINIUOS or linear action in past time. it is distinguished from the aorist indicative which conceives of an action in past time as simply having taking place, without further defining it: kia hoi ochloi ezetoun auton "and the people sought [ie., were continuously seeking] him"(Luke 4:42) see also 45, 95.

So English is not going to carry what is here unless you add words.

I asked myself a question if the "Word is God" then when is God not eternal"

Look again at this tense on the word "een" in JN 1:1

In fact is is said to be derived from the word "EIMI" in the I AM.

Greek grammar requires that all nouns have an article before it,

This is not how I understand it. The Def Art. has nothing to do with a word being a noun or a verb, the Art. makes the Subject sometimes. But not always because when the Subject and predicate both have Def. Art. they are interchangeable. look at our verse here.

JN 1:1B

"kia ho logos een pros ton theon " we can switch out the subject with the predicate here. "kia ton theon een ho logos"

The Def. Art does not determine a noun

Further look here in sect C

"kia theos een ho logos"

Is not 'theos' God. Is he not a noun this section, where is the ART. here??

Look the ART. modifies a noun lets look again here in Sect B

"and the Word was toward the God"

This word 'theon" has a ART. before it, and therefore modifies "theon" it is 'ton theon" or, "tou theou".

The Bible is saying in Sect b: "GOD" no, "a God" no, but "THEE God", Yes

Because the Word (logos) is not "Thee God" in this Section, but the Word (logos) is God in sect C. So "tou" [Art.] is needed for the word to Fit with no contradictions. The word is saying to me here in a paraphrase:

"and the Word has always been toward the Father"

Now It would be wise to look at this too:

"when a word does not have a DEF Art.in front of it, it brings forth the person or thing spoken about, general character".

This is why in section C, the logos is 'theos", not "ton theon". Here we see "theos" meaning "God in his fullness"

And from my position I see God in his fullness means "Father Son Spirit" these all three make up 'theos"/"elohim"

Just what I see here.

Glad we brought this out to look at Def. Art. a bit and wow I do know it takes a very skilled Grammarian here and I take a back seat and learn, as the elders of the holy Catholic [universial] Church teaches.

The Greek is a highly inflected language and it will either be in the present, past, future, perfect, pluperfect etc.

So true and you know what here it does even more. Changes form to indicate distinctions in case, tense, mood, number, voice, and others

in its pronouns, they change form to show whether they are used as subjects, this Dialect is very complex.

Hay God bless

Edited November 15, 2007 by TRIUNE_GOD

[brideofjc]

In the Complete Word study New Testament With Greek Parallel PG 865 #44

So English is not going to carry what is here unless you add words.

I asked myself a question if the "Word is God" then when is God not eternal"

Yes, it does, you translate it with the word "was." You're making it more difficult than it need be.

Look again at this tense on the word "een" in JN 1:1

In fact is is said to be derived from the word "EIMI" in the I AM.

This is not how I understand it. The Def Art. has nothing to do with a word being a noun or a verb, the Art. makes the Subject sometimes. But not always because when the Subject and predicate both have Def. Art. they are interchangeable. look at our verse here.

The subject in 1:1a,b,c is "Ho logos" The Word.

JN 1:1B

"kia ho logos een pros ton theon " we can switch out the subject with the predicate here. "kia ton theon een ho logos"

NO, YOU CAN'T!Ho Logos is in the nominative and therefore it is the subject. Period. You cannot switch it around to suit you or any denominational leanings. "Tov Theon" is in the Accusative and therefore it is THE DIRECT OBJECT.Period!

The Def. Art does not determine a noun

Further look here in sect C

"kia theos een ho logos"

Is not 'theos' God. Is he not a noun this section, where is the ART. here??

Yes, theos is a noun. The article is left out (my mistake earilier) because John is highlighting Ho logos which is the subject of 1:1c. Just because theos comes first in the Greek wording does not make it the subject. The nominative is the subject and if you look carefully, The Word is in the nom. case in all three sections.

Look the ART. modifies a noun lets look again here in Sect B

"and the Word was toward the God"

This word 'theon" has a ART. before it, and therefore modifies "theon" it is 'ton theon" or, "tou theou".

It is not "Tou theou" elsewise God would have had John write it as such. I cannot CAUTION you enough to not attempt to change the Greek so that it reads the way that you want it to read.

The Bible is saying in Sect b: "GOD" no, "a God" no, but "THEE God", Yes

Because the Word (logos) is not "Thee God" in this Section, but the Word (logos) is God in sect C. So "tou" [Art.] is needed for the word to Fit with no contradictions. The word is saying to me here in a paraphrase:

"and the Word has always been toward the Father"

The correct trans: "and the Word was with God." Again, it is not "tou", it is "ton" in the accusative, not the genitive.

Now It would be wise to look at this too:

"when a word does not have a DEF Art.in front of it, it brings forth the person or thing spoken about, general character".

This is why in section C, the logos is 'theos", not "ton theon". Here we see "theos" meaning "God in his fullness"

And from my position I see God in his fullness means "Father Son Spirit" these all three make up 'theos"/"elohim"

Just what I see here.

Glad we brought this out to look at Def. Art. a bit and wow I do know it takes a very skilled Grammarian here and I take a back seat and learn, as the elders of the holy Catholic [universial] Church teaches.

So true and you know what here it does even more. Changes form to indicate distinctions in case, tense, mood, number, voice, and others

in its pronouns, they change form to show whether they are used as subjects, this Dialect is very complex.

Hay God bless

[TRIUNE_GOD]

Wow amazing how you differ with William Edward Jelf, Dr Z, and many more in some areas . I am forced to go with them on what they teach here.

Yes, it does, you translate it with the word "was." You're making it more difficult than it need be.

Agreed we do not even need a bible to go to heaven !! (we was just looking into it) I was just showing how accurate the Greek was remember now.

The subject in 1:1a,b,c is "Ho logos" The Word.

Aman and HE is also could be the Subject in Verse two, glad you see this because when you get to verse three it makes the Word creator of all things :)

NO, YOU CAN'T!Ho Logos is in the nominative and therefore it is the subject. Period. You cannot switch it around to suit you or any denominational leanings. "Tov Theon" is in the Accusative and therefore it is THE DIRECT OBJECT.Period!

You will have a hard time to prove that the Subject and the Predicate CANNOT be switched in Sect b

See was Christ God audio on Sect B in Verse one. hummmm sorry but i also see this in William E Jelfs works as well . see A.T. Robersons "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in light of Historical Research"

If you are correct, can you document WHO you get this from that we cannot switch out The Subject with the Pred. when both have a Def. Art. in the same clause. ??

It is not "Tou theou" elsewise God would have had John write it as such. I cannot CAUTION you enough to not attempt to change the Greek so that it reads the way that you want it to read.

Thanks for your concern here sorry I should have said 'tov" just use to writing as it sounds. But it does say

"thee God" pointing to the Father.

The correct trans: "and the Word was with God.".

Wow not what i see at all. It is very important to see this (to me). Ok i looked again here on this section rather than tell you "I" come up with all this, it would be a lie and I just learn as the Elders teach. Seems you are disagreeing with a well known scholar here

Complete Word Study New Test page #305 "thee God " in Sect B also see Was Christ God audio in Sect B

Hay i like how we are both learning here I have no denomination I do not even go to Church at all, or fellowship (in person) with anyone so how can I push a Denom.

Am I going with a Group when The bible shows no details that "Jesus hung on a Cross with a cross beam" in it (that i see)??

Could it be so if I use Dr Lamsa, Taz Russel, Dr Wierwill, and many more. These cult like leaders I use there works to look at another view point. I am open here very much and I see a lot of people doing a lot of stuff to 'not accept Christ as God". And when I thought Christ was just a a Creature I could say the same about guys like me lol lol So we are forced to go with truth if we want it. Here is what I take as truth

"the Word has always been toward The Father" And the Greek proves it lock stock and barrel.

We are just going to spin our wheels unless you start documenting stuff, by well known and reliable scholars, so i could examine them. Otherwise i am like you and need statements here.

Do you have any AT Roberson, or Jelfs works, What about Dr Z you should have him.

GOD BLESS YOU

[Preacher]

Here's the history report of the first day of this administation of grace.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The believer is to really make Jesus Lord. We

gladly accept many other points, but this final step is

difficult. For when we do make Him Lord, we have

to change so much of our thinking and action; and

this renewing of the mind is certainly difficult.

Many times “unbelieving believers” have said to me

that it is possible to curse God when speaking in

tongues since the speaker ,does not understand what

he speaks. This is absolutely not true. The third verse

of this chapter(1 Corinthians 12) plainly states that no one can call

Jesus accursed when speaking by the spirit of (from)

God. Since it is impossible to speak in tongues except

one has received the gift from the Holy Spirit, we can

be fully confident that this manifestation absolutely

can never be perverted to the unthinkable end of

cursing God. When a man is born again of the Spirit

and speaks in tongues, the language and the subject

matter which he speaks originate with God and can

do nothing other than glorify His name. Furthermore,

“And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord”

(the Amplified New Testament) except by way of the

pneuma hagion, which is the gift in manifestation.

RTHST Page 165

[brideofjc]

Wow amazing how you differ with William Edward Jelf, Dr Z, and many more in some areas . I am forced to go with them on what they teach here.

What are they teaching? Sorry, I never even heard of them. What books do they have? I follow Mounce, this is what was taught to me by my Greek professors. A.T. Robertson, I've heard of.

Agreed we do not even need a bible to go to heaven !! (we was just looking into it) I was just showing how accurate the Greek was remember now.

Aman and HE is also could be the Subject in Verse two, glad you see this because when you get to verse three it makes the Word creator of all things :)

You will have a hard time to prove that the Subject and the Predicate CANNOT be switched in Sect b

Really? Can you prove that it can? When you translate it into English, the Nominative case comes first and then the Direct Object, sometimes a Genitive and/or Dative are inserted inbetween. But it's always in that order. Please list the text book that you're getting this idea from, page and author. I'm curious to see it.

See was Christ God audio on Sect B in Verse one. hummmm sorry but i also see this in William E Jelfs works as well . see A.T. Robersons "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in light of Historical Research"

If you are correct, can you document WHO you get this from that we cannot switch out The Subject with the Pred. when both have a Def. Art. in the same clause. ??

The Greek is being translated into English, therefore you must abide by English Grammar as well. If you are referring to the order that the Greeks wrote, they wrote for poetry as I said before and yes sometimes in Greek, the order may come different, but you still must translate it into English and use the proper Grammar rules for our language as well. I can see that you are hung up on the Definite article, TG let me say it again, it is not the article that makes it, it is the CASE that it was written in, this is how you determine word order.

Thanks for your concern here sorry I should have said 'tov" just use to writing as it sounds. But it does say

"thee God" pointing to the Father.

Most translators do not render the article because it is a an Accusative and not the main subject noun.

Wow not what i see at all. It is very important to see this (to me). Ok i looked again here on this section rather than tell you "I" come up with all this, it would be a lie and I just learn as the Elders teach. Seems you are disagreeing with a well known scholar here

SO??? <_<

Complete Word Study New Test page #305 "thee God " in Sect B also see Was Christ God audio in Sect B

Author?? Could you type it out please?

Hay i like how we are both learning here I have no denomination I do not even go to Church at all, or fellowship (in person) with anyone so how can I push a Denom.

Am I going with a Group when The bible shows no details that "Jesus hung on a Cross with a cross beam" in it (that i see)??

Could it be so if I use Dr Lamsa, Taz Russel, Dr Wierwill, and many more. These cult like leaders I use there works to look at another view point. I am open here very much and I see a lot of people doing a lot of stuff to 'not accept Christ as God". And when I thought Christ was just a a Creature I could say the same about guys like me lol lol So we are forced to go with truth if we want it. Here is what I take as truth

"the Word has always been toward The Father" And the Greek proves it lock stock and barrel.

"Pros" is rendered with the nearest noun and it is the Accusative, therefore you must translate it accordingly. The proper preposition of "Pros" can be translated as such:

Genitive of Advantage = "IN"

Locative of Place = "AT"

Adverbial Accus. of Measure = "WITH"

Accus. of Purpose = "SO THAT, FOR THE PURPOSE OF

Accus. of Comparison = "WITH"

Accus of Relationship = "WITH, AGAINST"

There are TWO possible options (please don't choose another just to be contrary ) and that is Comparison or Relationship, which should be translated as "WITH" not TOWARD as you list it.

We are just going to spin our wheels unless you start documenting stuff, by well known and reliable scholars, so i could examine them. Otherwise i am like you and need statements here.

Do you have any AT Roberson, or Jelfs works, What about Dr Z you should have him.

I have Mounce, Mantey. Never heard of Dr. Z or Jelfs. You need to document too, just don't list a book and a page # that I have no access to, type it out or something or if there's an online version or something....

GOD BLESS YOU

[TRIUNE_GOD]

Sorry so long have been busy working i will have some time here soon. I am visually impaired ant it takes me hours to just type one Art. sheww But i am loving our Talk here you are meek i see and i really thank you for that.

I am also glad you have a different view on things too as the bible says "IRON SHARPENS IRON" lol I will give you the documented statements on what i have as soon as i get a day off here. I did get a lot from DR.Z He is a Greek. Look up AMG Intl. I have a audio form (was Christ God) with permission to post it (from AMG) on a web site...looking forward to getting it on the Internet. You will admire it if you like Greek. We all are on different plains of understanding and I see that now after 10 Years lol lol

God bless

[TRIUNE_GOD]

Here's the history report of the first day of this administation of grace.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The believer is to really make Jesus Lord. We

gladly accept many other points, but this final step is

difficult. For when we do make Him Lord, we have

to change so much of our thinking and action; and

this renewing of the mind is certainly difficult.

Many times “unbelieving believers” have said to me

that it is possible to curse God when speaking in

tongues since the speaker ,does not understand what

he speaks. This is absolutely not true. The third verse

of this chapter(1 Corinthians 12) plainly states that no one can call

Jesus accursed when speaking by the spirit of (from)

God. Since it is impossible to speak in tongues except

one has received the gift from the Holy Spirit, we can

be fully confident that this manifestation absolutely

can never be perverted to the unthinkable end of

cursing God. When a man is born again of the Spirit

and speaks in tongues, the language and the subject

matter which he speaks originate with God and can

do nothing other than glorify His name. Furthermore,

“And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord”

(the Amplified New Testament) except by way of the

pneuma hagion, which is the gift in manifestation.

RTHST Page 165

Wow the Day of Pent. 'EVERY ONE HEARD THEM'

In Cor 'NO ONE HEARS THEM"

in Acts 2 'Dialectos' the root word is 'LEGO' and we see this root in THE LOGOS

in Cor.14: "glossolalia"-= The root is Lalia which means JUST A NOISE not understood. see 1COR 13:1

sorry I am short on time .....lol lol

that book you got it is full of problems dude .

Check out that word Lord "YHWH" = GOD, not "adoni"

Check out that word Lord "YHWH" = GOD, not "adoni" in many of these New test verses. CF Phlip 2:10 to the quote it comes from. In the old Testament I see that Jesus is "YHWH" of the old covenant . And this is why "so many" think unless you see Christ as God you cannot be Christian.

Not here to argue just to show you what i see here from the other side of this dispute.

Got to go to work sorry so short.

God bless.

Edited November 26, 2007 by TRIUNE_GOD

[brideofjc]

Sorry so long have been busy working i will have some time here soon. I am visually impaired ant it takes me hours to just type one Art. sheww But i am loving our Talk here you are meek i see and i really thank you for that.

I am also glad you have a different view on things too as the bible says "IRON SHARPENS IRON" lol I will give you the documented statements on what i have as soon as i get a day off here. I did get a lot from DR.Z He is a Greek. Look up AMG Intl. I have a audio form (was Christ God) with permission to post it (from AMG) on a web site...looking forward to getting it on the Internet. You will admire it if you like Greek. We all are on different plains of understanding and I see that now after 10 Years lol lol

God bless

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving and all of the trimmings. Hopefully, you will have some time pretty soon. Do you have the capability of voice to text on your computer? If not, you should look into either buying the program or upgrading your older computer to Vista Home Premium. I saw something on there that said something about voice to text. This would help you greatly.

Blessings

[soul searcher]

Another familiar example of Mystical Manipulation. . . . IMO. . . . was SIT. It was not set up to be spontaneous, however, we were led into it. . . . either during the last session of the class, by way of RTHS book, or by someone who had taken the class.

.

.

.

Look at it from a biblical perspective if it helps. . . . .

.

.

.

It can be induced. . . I led people into SIT while I was a WOW. . . . a few of them unsure there was a God. Fence sitters. If you set people up and the conditions are right. . . . anyone can do it.

Other religions, that have nothing to do with Christianity, SIT. . . does that mean it is their proof of the new birth as well? Wasn't it suppose to be a special gift for Christians to know that they know?

.

.

.

http://bible.org/art...peaking-tongues

I think the 1 Corinthians verses are pretty strong support in and of themselves for the argument of "to each, his or her own gift." It's pretty clear to me that not everyone manifests all the gifts of holy spirit. Even common sense tells me that -- anyone can see that individuals in this world have various talents and gifts.

Also, consider Romans 8:

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

(All quotes from NIV, bold is mine)

So a "groan" here seems to serve a similar function as SIT: prayer that is uttered when one's native language is insufficient to convey the desired meaning to God.

And think about the "ommmm" mantra that some eastern religions use during meditation to achieve mental clarity and enlightment. Can't SIT can be considered a form of this type of vocalizing? Why does SIT have to sound like the flowery, glossolalic mix of French and Portugese that my ex-Way friend speaks?

[waysider]

Why does SIT have to sound like the flowery, glossolalic mix of French and Portugese that my ex-Way friend speaks?

Well, some people may not like the answer to this question.

It has to sound exotic so that it will tickle the ears of new recruits. ("babes" in TWI lingo) In fact, a big part of the Intermediate Class (the class that specifically deals with tongues, interpretation and prophesy) is consumed with what we called "excellor sessions". These are, for all intents and purposes, sessions that are dedicated to enhancing the public presentation of the "utterance manifestations". In these sessions, we did things like start our tongues with specific or sequential letters of the alphabet so they would sound like they had variety. (Amakala Boshenta Colisto Devetzo------) And, we did things like making sure our "tongue" portion was relatively equal to the "interpretation" portion of the message. We sang in tongues. We had mock conversations in tongues. We did exercises where we varied the dynamics. All this was done so that it would have flash and excitement when done in a "believer's meeting". You won't find "excellor sessions" in any version of the Bible.

Edited January 6, 2010 by waysider

[waysider]

Now here's an idea that's crossed my mind more than once over the years.

If, indeed, the record in Acts 2 is historically true, perhaps we have it all bass ackwards. In other words, maybe they spoke their own native tongue but people who were unfamiliar with that language were somehow able to understand them. Honestly, I never "researched" it or anything like that. It's just one of those things that crossed my mind now and then. But, if there is any reality to that scenario, we sure wasted a lot of time and energy on something that was misinterpreted from the get-go.

[kimberly]

I have to laugh about the flowery romantic languages (French/Italian/Portugese)....anybody ever hear John Hendricks speak in tongues?..?..yippy skippy, whatever....

[Sunesis]

The 12 Apostles' "Great Commission" given them by Christ was to go, preach the Kingdom of Heaven. Their goal was for Israel to repent and accept that Jesus truly was the Messiah. If Israel had repented, there would have been no "age of grace" that we live in now. It was God's goal for Israel, under Christ to be the conduit for God's blessings on earth to the Gentiles.

In order to spread this gospel, they needed to be able to tell folks in the people's own tongues.

That's why I believe the miracle was that they spoke in languages other people understood. The Apostles were able to use this "gift" of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Kingdom that was coming to all people in all languages.

Sadly, Israel did not repent, as Peter commanded, and over a span of time rejected their Messiah.

The Kingdom of Heaven is in "abayance" (doncha love those old TWI terms? - not!) now.

Thus, tongues is no longer needed.

I think that what we did in TWI was not biblical speaking in tongues.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Sunesis

[cman]

That's why I believe the miracle was that they spoke in languages other people understood.

Good point, and it still occurs today as well. Not only was it in their language, those that heard, some of them understood it as Words that magnify (make bigger) God. Others missed it totally....

I believe tongues and interpretation are in one's own language, interacting spirit....along with all that the spirit manifests is present, if it's manifestation of spirit why would any aspect of it be left out.

[geisha779]

I think the 1 Corinthians verses are pretty strong support in and of themselves for the argument of "to each, his or her own gift." It's pretty clear to me that not everyone manifests all the gifts of holy spirit. Even common sense tells me that -- anyone can see that individuals in this world have various talents and gifts.

Also, consider Romans 8:

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

(All quotes from NIV, bold is mine)

So a "groan" here seems to serve a similar function as SIT: prayer that is uttered when one's native language is insufficient to convey the desired meaning to God.

And think about the "ommmm" mantra that some eastern religions use during meditation to achieve mental clarity and enlightment. Can't SIT can be considered a form of this type of vocalizing? Why does SIT have to sound like the flowery, glossolalic mix of French and Portugese that my ex-Way friend speaks?

My opinion here

We are speaking of two distinct things here. . . . .in TWI SIT pretty much was a mantra or form of one. . . . and you are right, it is not all 9 all the time.

I think the groan the HS intercedes with is much deeper than SIT via TWI. . . it is God speaking to God. The Spirit of God. . . . knows and communes within the trinity too deeply for our comprehension. We don't have the words or know how to express that deep longing, desire and need for complete restoration, so He Himself intercedes. It is beyond words.

Those verses in Romans are dealing with our present unglorified state. . . . the context is glorification, like it says. . . . we are waiting for the redemption of our body, just as the creation is waiting for the lifting of the curse. That is why a couple verses later it says no, we are more than conquerors in all these things that happen in our body. . . . because even though in our present state there may be suffering, famine, persecution. . . there is a future glory awaiting us. Nothing will separate us from this love of God.

They are not the same thing as TWI taught. It is two separate experiences. Genuine tongues. . . . and the HS interceding with groanings which cannot be uttered.

But, then we have to confront what it is we were probably doing in TWI. That is not really popular around here with people who still practice SIT or follow in some manner TWI theology. However, Kimberly's post below illustrates the point I want to make. Some of these people were exactly what scripture reveals. . . brute beasts and they treated others shamefully. They are the false teachers scripture so perfectly describes.

False teachers among you introducing destructive heresies. Nothing is more wicked than someone claiming to speak for God when he is really batting for Satan. That is who we were listening to. . . . those who claimed to speak for God. . . . but were not. They are described as self-willed, reviling where they have no knowledge, stains and blemishes, eyes full of adultery, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, forsaking the right way, springs without water, mist driven by a storm, speaking arrogant words of vanity, enticed by fleshly desires, promising freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption. Unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, counting it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. . . .

They prey on the weak, unstable, and those young in the faith. Any of this sound familiar? These guys. . . . at some point, do want to escape the moral corruption of the world and seek religion. . . even seek Jesus, but it is on THEIR terms. . . not His. They are bred within the church and have access to true teachings, but they are half in and half out, and eventually they reject the truth and try to entice others. That is exactly who VP was. . . .they identify with Jesus outwardly, they know the lingo. . . but, they reject His Lordship. . . .their characteristics are arrogance and lust.

It also says, God knows how to rescue the Godly from temptation.

So, in Corinthians, Paul is speaking to a church who he calls unaware. . . infiltrated by these false teachers. . . . he says. . . these guys you bear beautifully, but you won't listen to me.

He is confronting them on mixing Paganism into their church service. . . . it says they were carried away(ecstatic) and actually calling Jesus accursed. He keeps drawing a distinction between what the Corinthians were doing and genuine gifts. In seeking showy demonstrations or abilities. . . . they were vulnerable to counterfeited gifts. There were Corinthians within the church who had true gifts. . . that made it more confusing. The gift the Corinthians prized the most was SIT. It was the one abused greatly and counterfeited the most.

Look back to Acts 8 and Simon the Sorcerer asking to pay for power that whoever he lays hands on might SIT. . . .Simon Magus. . . the father of Simony. . . of gnostics.

The people in Corinth were listening to false teachers. Paul told them. . . "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

It is no different than what happened to us in TWI. We followed a false teacher, we were led astray and we sought a outward show of our faith. . . . the PROOF. We were vulnerable to counterfeit gifts and a false gospel with another Jesus and a different spirit. A false sense of security, a false sense of salvation, and if it was all so true. . . . why didn't we all remain?

I could keep going. . . it gets uglier, but it usually ends with someone biting my head off. . . or accusing me of biting and devouring my brethren. . . it is in reality. . . quite the opposite.

I have to laugh about the flowery romantic languages (French/Italian/Portugese)....anybody ever hear John Hendricks speak in tongues?..?..yippy skippy, whatever....

Edited January 6, 2010 by geisha779

[soul searcher]

Thanks geisha, great post.

In a class from CES/STF that my ex-Way friend sent me, the instructors demonstrated their tongues, gave instruction on how to do it, and even told us to call the STF if we needed "technical support" (my term) on SIT. They said that God wants us all to speak in tongues all the time. (Incidentally, my EWF speaks in a very pleasant, flowing, nice-sounding language -- although I think is completely meaningless since she doesn't know what she's saying.)

So I gave this SIT business a try and I must say that what came out of my mouth was fairly impressive. Once I got going, it was easy. That is to say, it was easy to utter fairly articulate nonsense syllables that bore little or no resemblance to any language that I know of. But although it had a calming effect on me I saw little purpose in continuing to do it on a daily basis -- I wasn't getting anything out of it. At least when I pray in english, I know what I said. I may not always be praying for the "right" thing but so be it -- I'll fgure that out down the road.

Just for fun: a minister who writes in the "Faith" section of our local newspaper likes to say (somewhat jokingly) that there are basically four types of prayer: 1) Thanks, 2) Oops, 3) Gimme and 4) Wow. Which category would SIT fall into?

Edited January 6, 2010 by soul searcher

[geisha779]

Here is some advice from a qualified Pastor who is very familiar with TWI. He has a website posted under links here. Pastor John Juedes.

http://www.precastco...

You can contact him with questions. I would not go to any Way offshoot or any ex-way teacher. . . or member. . . including ME. . . for any spiritual matters. Remember, this was the outward manifestation of the inward reality of the New Birth, but these guys lived lives of debauchery! It might just be. . . . we were led into something else. . . not good.

If there is a genuine. . . . there is a counterfeit. . . and Pagan's also SIT. Does that make it Christian? (Not a slam on my Pagan friends. . . it is just different)

Q. I have discovered several errors in The Way and have begun to discard some of its practices. The Way emphasizes speaking in tongues so heavily that I wonder if I should stop this, but I believe the Bible does not condemn it. What should I do?

A. There is room for difference of opinion on this question, but consider this: Most Way members were committed believers before they were led astray. The Apostle Paul presents an excellent description of this in his second letter to the Corinthian church:

"I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough... Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" (II Corinthians 11:1-4, 11-13).

Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not.

[Sunesis]

What Geisha said!

How do I get rid of this stripe with fonts, etc., in the middle of the area to post in?

[soul searcher]

How do I get rid of this stripe with fonts, etc., in the middle of the area to post in?

I have that problem, too. I thought it was my stupid workstation.

On top of that, none of those formatting icons work on this computer.

[waysider]

d.

Just for fun: a minister who writes in the "Faith" section of our local newspaper likes to say (somewhat jokingly) that there are basically four types of prayer: 1) Thanks, 2) Oops, 3) Gimme and 4) Wow. Which category would SIT fall into?

Good question, soul searcher

Here is the TWI answer to it from session #12 of PFAL

*************************************************************

Speaking in Tongues. What it is for:

1. To edify you. I Corinthians 14:4. Jude 20.

2. To speak to God divine secrets. I Corinthians 14:2

3. To speak the wonderful works of God. Acts 2:11

4. To magnify God. Acts 10:46

5. To pray perfectly. Romans 8:26,27.

----a. No selfishness in praying in tongues.

6. To give thanks well. I Corinthians 14:17

7. To have the spirit bearing witness with our spirit. Romans 8:16

8. To know that you are a joint heir with Christ Romans 8:17

9. To strengthen you with might in the inner man. Ephesians 3:16. II Corinthians 4:16

10. To be a sign to unbelievers. I Corinthians 14:22. Mark 16:17.

11. It is rest to the soul. Isaiah 28:11,12. I Corinthians 14:21.

12. To bring a message from God or for God to the people. Must then be interpreted for it would be in public. I Corinthians 14:4,13,27,28.

[waysider]

soul searcher

Here's some more to chew on. It can get a bit "gristly" at times.

It's my personal opinion that what we called speaking in tongues in The Way was really nothing more than glossolalia.

When a person is practicing glossolalia, silently, to their self, it "anesthetizes", so to speak, the portion of the brain that allows the mind to process critical/conflicting thoughts. This has been shown by valid scientific studies.

So, why is that relevant? Well, one of the big things that was heavily promoted in The Way was something called "the lift list". We were supposed to start and end our days with lift lists and squeeze them in where ever else possible. For example, a traffic jam was welcomed because it gave you an opportunity to run through your lift list. The lift list is a list of things you want to pray about. ("believe for" in wayspeak) The way it works is that you first select an item on the list. Next, you try to close out all distracting thoughts. For example, if you are "believing for" a new car, you might picture yourself driving down the street, on a beautiful day, in the very car you desire. You are supposed to be very specific and positive about the details. While you are doing this, you close out all thoughts and speak in tongues silently to yourself. If you are "believing for" healing from an ailment, you would, of course, picture yourself in a healthy state.

Here's where it gets a bit sticky. The first item on your lift list was always supposed to be your "leadership". So, if you lifted, for example, VP Wierwille, you pictured him in prime health, speaking dynamically in front of large receptive crowds, etc. You always pictured him in a positive light. Meanwhile your mind was in a state that did not allow for any conflicting or uncomplimentary assessments of Wierwille. In other words, you were actively deluding yourself with a false image of the REAL VP Wierwille. Now, if you do that many times a day, every day for weeks, months, years and decades, it can be awfully hard to allow your mind to accept that VPW was, in reality, a very sick man who was in an almost constant state of inebriation, sexually preyed on hundreds of unsuspecting young women, (sometimes with the aid of date rape drugs) and siphoned huge sums of money from the ministry to fuel a hedonistic lifestyle.

Cutting to my point, by speaking in tongues in the TWI prescribed manner, we were abstaining from healthy thoughts that should have led us to question and challenge what was really going on in the ministry.