I could tell that woman had a sincere desire to translate. What believing! What boldness! What the he11 was she saying?!?!...Ya know...I think she was in a practice session at one of our twigs...anyway, she did better than me...
In fact, I had only just heard about TWI and the PFAL class days before I spoke in tongues,
Someone had said it was a way to express thankfulness to God and that was a big priority to me at that moment.
Then, the next day or two I gave tongues with interpretation in a believers meeting( because the leader said, "Will someone----?") and drew some wild looks from the people present.
so what about those rhetorical questions at the end of 1Corinthians 12.... are all apostles? ... do all speak with tongues? ... do all interpret?
The Greek in fact gives greater force to this figure. For this reason, the translators of the New American Standard Bible translate it like so:
All are not apostles, are they?... All do not speak with tongues, do they?
In the preface to the NASB, they explain this part of their translation paradigm under "Greek Tenses":
5. In the rendering of negative questions introduced by the particle me [anotherDan: long e] (which always expect the answer, "No.") the wording has been altered from a mere, "Will he not do this?" to a more accurate, "He will not do this, will he?"
The line of Paul's reasoning is that we are different from one another, but have the "same spirit." The Corinthian church was "puffed up" about a lot of things which are handled throughout the epistle, even in "spiritual matters." In chapter four, Paul touches on this, and it is expanded in reference to spiritual matters in chapters 12, 13, and 14
1Co 4:6,7
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to]Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. or who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?
Why would a Christian want to boast about something that is given to him? The point is that God is who causes us to differ. This is made very plain (except to followers of TWI, who were taught otherwise) when Paul writes in chapter 12
1Co 12:4ff, KJV, formatting mine:
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another [divers]kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
The spirit does not "divide to each one his own" as he (the man) wills, but as the spirit wills. Virtually the whole Christian world is agreement on this. They may be divided about whether "tongues have ceased," but only a few mavericks misread Paul to say that as a man wills to "operate the manifestations," the spirit will "divide" it to him.
Certainly, a man must be willing. But this is never a part of what Paul is attempting to address. The point is that the various people were not giving glory to God for these various gifts, administrations, operations, and manifestations of the spirit, of which there are more than nine, as I pointed out in an earlier post from Romans 12.
“The answer is: No, they do not all do all of these things in the Church. But, there is no implication or inference that these things could not be happening in the lives of all the individual Christian believers.”
This is all vp says, and it is not at all logical. First off, these are a series of rhetorical questions. The answer has to be either yes to all, or no to all. The statement implies I might be a prophet or an apostle in my individual life. That makes no sense. I am a part of the body of Christ all the time. Is he trying to say I can be an apostle at home but not at a meeting??? The REAL implication of the verses, is no, not everyone does them all at anytime.
1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts (charisma): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Verse 31 is a summary verse and concludes all the items in the rhetorical questions as gifts (charisma).
I am pointing this out because vp tries to make a distinction between charisma and manifestations, stating all nine are available to all and gifts (charisma) vary. I am not done studying this yet.
To me, part of the real emphasis of 1 Cor. 12 and Romans 12 is not so much what the charisma are, but the fact God does the energizing as He sees fit.
Dan, you mentioned ego, but I think an important piece of the puzzle is the mention of idolatry in the beginning of I Cor. 12. That seems like an odd contrast to charisma. I am working on that also.
To me, part of the real emphasis of 1 Cor. 12 and Romans 12 is not so much what the charisma are, but the fact God does the energizing as He sees fit.
Exactly, and the line of Paul's thought is brought to a grinding halt if we insert "as he [insert 'the man'] wills." Without that substitution of "the man" for the obvious "the spirit," we can now say (after also mangling "for to one..." sheesh!) that "all nine manifestations of the spirit are available to all believers."
Keep studying, bro. 1 Corinthians 12 is clear as a bell to me, now. Still having a bit of trouble with chapter 14, though!
Well I love to "dialegatol" with you all on this topic. Please bear with me i have problems seeing the text i type. I am visually impaired, so i may misspell a word of two. Please understand. I really am not sure about the Ver. you all are using. I Probably should read through this thread. I have read some It just takes me a while to read them.
If I have another View point than you all do hope you will REASON out of the Script. like in acts 17, as Paul 'dialegatol" with the Jews.
Not sure if you all are 4 it, or opposed to it. I did see someone did say they use "utterances" heavenly language"Tongues" as some believe to be a communication directly to God, as the Cor. did to there gods before accepting Christ as there God.
Let us remember we are talking about Tongues here in this context.
I would like to share on what I have learned on this topic, in the finest details, that i can. I do not claim to be a Scholar, I am learning as we all are.
Haven't had time to read through all of this, but I will get to it soon. So many threads, so little time!
But in answer to the question, yes, I speak in tongues often throughout each day. I think it's one reason I recognize the still, small voice of God more easily. And I love that in my prayer life and hear Him often, too.
Excie,
I clicked on your link and it said something like - Sorry, this YouTube is no longer available. Sorry I missed it. From the reactions, sounds like it would have been a hoot!
A young child of five asked his or her aunt to go see Santa Clas.*
His or her time in line comes
Santa ask the child what he or she wants for Christmas
The child looks up at Santa with eyes of tears and begings to tell Santa about his or her little sister or brother being sick in the hos and only his aunt could take him because his or her mom and dad are crying by his or her sister or brother bedside
than with his or her sad voice the child saids all I want is my little brother or sister to get well and come home again
this would be praying with heart with would be perfect pray
it would not matter that the child asked Santa but what matter is that the child asked with heart
now I know this is not the perfect pray the way you were taught about but it would of been perfect
I do not know if this as ever happen other than TV or if it ever happen on TV but it comes to mind
A young child of five asked his or her aunt to go see Santa Clas.*
His or her time in line comes
Santa ask the child what he or she wants for Christmas
The child looks up at Santa with eyes of tears and begings to tell Santa about his or her little sister or brother being sick in the hos and only his aunt could take him because his or her mom and dad are crying by his or her sister or brother bedside
than with his or her sad voice the child saids all I want is my little brother or sister to get well and come home again
this would be praying with heart with would be perfect pray
it would not matter that the child asked Santa but what matter is that the child asked with heart
now I know this is not the perfect pray the way you were taught about but it would of been perfect
I do not know if this as ever happen other than TV or if it ever happen on TV but it comes to mind
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Hi, Roy
That's certainly an interesting take on "perfect" prayer, that it's the essence that is to be perfect, not the technique. Even if it proved to be non-scriptural, it would still be profoundly wise advise.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
19
17
33
19
Popular Days
Aug 28
22
Aug 26
19
Feb 15
17
Sep 1
12
Top Posters In This Topic
waysider 19 posts
cman 17 posts
anotherDan 33 posts
TRIUNE_GOD 19 posts
Popular Days
Aug 28 2007
22 posts
Aug 26 2007
19 posts
Feb 15 2010
17 posts
Sep 1 2007
12 posts
Popular Posts
Sunesis
No problem RobertErasmus. I do very much enjoy your sharings. But I do like the doctrinal section here and don't want anyone to be intimidated to say what they think. Of course there are going to b
Sunesis
Well, Mr. RobertErasmus, from my study, I do not believe tongues today is what it was then. You can call my opinion "poppycock" all you want, but you have just lowered yourself to me. If you can't s
sirguessalot
i can suggest starting with a mutual consent based-process for any adult discussion ...including doctrinal.. rather ordinary...and any good marriage or friendship is based on it illustrated by ask
Posted Images
anotherDan
Shifra, you're right about that!
note to self: look up that exchange between Luther and More.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ohmygodiamheartlysorryforhavingoffended theeandidetestallmysinsbecauseofthyjustpunishment
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
Excie, ROTFL! That is hilarious!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
do you think i should move this ? i don't want to hurt anyone's feelings
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
You're so sweet.
It doesn't hurt my feelings, but makes me laugh.
And I still Speak in Tongues.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I could tell that woman had a sincere desire to translate. What believing! What boldness! What the he11 was she saying?!?!...Ya know...I think she was in a practice session at one of our twigs...anyway, she did better than me...
[edited to have universal language appeal]
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
EXC!!!! You are going to burn in hell for that!!!!
ROFLOL - that was funny, ExC!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I wasn't led into it either.
I wasn't even with anyone when I did it.
In fact, I had only just heard about TWI and the PFAL class days before I spoke in tongues,
Someone had said it was a way to express thankfulness to God and that was a big priority to me at that moment.
Then, the next day or two I gave tongues with interpretation in a believers meeting( because the leader said, "Will someone----?") and drew some wild looks from the people present.
It was a real *Kodak Moment*.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
waysider... ain't God great?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
Excathedara,
That was PERFECT!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
so what about those rhetorical questions at the end of 1Corinthians 12.... are all apostles? ... do all speak with tongues? ... do all interpret?
The Greek in fact gives greater force to this figure. For this reason, the translators of the New American Standard Bible translate it like so:
All are not apostles, are they?... All do not speak with tongues, do they?
In the preface to the NASB, they explain this part of their translation paradigm under "Greek Tenses":
The line of Paul's reasoning is that we are different from one another, but have the "same spirit." The Corinthian church was "puffed up" about a lot of things which are handled throughout the epistle, even in "spiritual matters." In chapter four, Paul touches on this, and it is expanded in reference to spiritual matters in chapters 12, 13, and 14
Why would a Christian want to boast about something that is given to him? The point is that God is who causes us to differ. This is made very plain (except to followers of TWI, who were taught otherwise) when Paul writes in chapter 12
The spirit does not "divide to each one his own" as he (the man) wills, but as the spirit wills. Virtually the whole Christian world is agreement on this. They may be divided about whether "tongues have ceased," but only a few mavericks misread Paul to say that as a man wills to "operate the manifestations," the spirit will "divide" it to him.
Certainly, a man must be willing. But this is never a part of what Paul is attempting to address. The point is that the various people were not giving glory to God for these various gifts, administrations, operations, and manifestations of the spirit, of which there are more than nine, as I pointed out in an earlier post from Romans 12.
What say ye?
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
From RHST:
“The answer is: No, they do not all do all of these things in the Church. But, there is no implication or inference that these things could not be happening in the lives of all the individual Christian believers.”
This is all vp says, and it is not at all logical. First off, these are a series of rhetorical questions. The answer has to be either yes to all, or no to all. The statement implies I might be a prophet or an apostle in my individual life. That makes no sense. I am a part of the body of Christ all the time. Is he trying to say I can be an apostle at home but not at a meeting??? The REAL implication of the verses, is no, not everyone does them all at anytime.
1Cr 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
1Cr 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts (charisma): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Verse 31 is a summary verse and concludes all the items in the rhetorical questions as gifts (charisma).
I am pointing this out because vp tries to make a distinction between charisma and manifestations, stating all nine are available to all and gifts (charisma) vary. I am not done studying this yet.
To me, part of the real emphasis of 1 Cor. 12 and Romans 12 is not so much what the charisma are, but the fact God does the energizing as He sees fit.
Dan, you mentioned ego, but I think an important piece of the puzzle is the mention of idolatry in the beginning of I Cor. 12. That seems like an odd contrast to charisma. I am working on that also.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Thanks, another spot, I appreciate that.
Exactly, and the line of Paul's thought is brought to a grinding halt if we insert "as he [insert 'the man'] wills." Without that substitution of "the man" for the obvious "the spirit," we can now say (after also mangling "for to one..." sheesh!) that "all nine manifestations of the spirit are available to all believers."
Keep studying, bro. 1 Corinthians 12 is clear as a bell to me, now. Still having a bit of trouble with chapter 14, though!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Here's Bella's take:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TRIUNE_GOD
Well I love to "dialegatol" with you all on this topic. Please bear with me i have problems seeing the text i type. I am visually impaired, so i may misspell a word of two. Please understand. I really am not sure about the Ver. you all are using. I Probably should read through this thread. I have read some It just takes me a while to read them.
If I have another View point than you all do hope you will REASON out of the Script. like in acts 17, as Paul 'dialegatol" with the Jews.
Not sure if you all are 4 it, or opposed to it. I did see someone did say they use "utterances" heavenly language"Tongues" as some believe to be a communication directly to God, as the Cor. did to there gods before accepting Christ as there God.
Let us remember we are talking about Tongues here in this context.
I would like to share on what I have learned on this topic, in the finest details, that i can. I do not claim to be a Scholar, I am learning as we all are.
Edited by TRIUNE_GODLink to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Haven't had time to read through all of this, but I will get to it soon. So many threads, so little time!
But in answer to the question, yes, I speak in tongues often throughout each day. I think it's one reason I recognize the still, small voice of God more easily. And I love that in my prayer life and hear Him often, too.
Excie,
I clicked on your link and it said something like - Sorry, this YouTube is no longer available. Sorry I missed it. From the reactions, sounds like it would have been a hoot!
Suda
Edited by SudaLink to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all my dear friends
praying perfect in tongues is like
A young child of five asked his or her aunt to go see Santa Clas.*
His or her time in line comes
Santa ask the child what he or she wants for Christmas
The child looks up at Santa with eyes of tears and begings to tell Santa about his or her little sister or brother being sick in the hos and only his aunt could take him because his or her mom and dad are crying by his or her sister or brother bedside
than with his or her sad voice the child saids all I want is my little brother or sister to get well and come home again
this would be praying with heart with would be perfect pray
it would not matter that the child asked Santa but what matter is that the child asked with heart
now I know this is not the perfect pray the way you were taught about but it would of been perfect
I do not know if this as ever happen other than TV or if it ever happen on TV but it comes to mind
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
"Triune God" (I have to put that in quotes, since I don't feel comfortable calling anyone that -- not even anyOne!)
Thanks for dropping in. I'd be delighted to hear what you think about the subject.
Dan
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hi, Roy
That's certainly an interesting take on "perfect" prayer, that it's the essence that is to be perfect, not the technique. Even if it proved to be non-scriptural, it would still be profoundly wise advise.
Holy hugs, Bro.
Welcome, TG
Have you perused some of the articles and such?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved waysider
God loves us all my dear friend
I am glad you like it and thanks for the hugs
you asked me "Have you perused some of the articles and such?"
do you mean have keep up with this tread if so yes some what
or if you mean did I come up with a ending if so sure God heals the child
I think I understand now what your asking
Are you asking if it was like
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
if so yes I perceived it
if you mean did I use it before not that I know of
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Edited by year2027Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hello, Roy
No, nothing quite that deep in my question.
I was just asking TG if he/she has had a chance to peek into some of the other rooms here besides the forums.
I really like that concept of "perfect" prayer being prayer that is selfless in motivation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.