Skyrider, what is your answer to who bewitched us? I'm sorry, I didn't know if you had a definitive answer. Is it the list? I didn't see a person listed per se. Maybe there isn't just one.
Anyhoo, love your list, skyrider. T-Bone asked the same question on another thread and it seemed to belong better over here:
T-Bone and others asked why we kept taking it for so long. The thing that keeps coming to mind is the lobster analogy. When they're cooking lobster, don't they start out with it in cold water (let's call this the acceptance phase or unconditional love phase with your new spiritual family)? Then, it gradually gets warm (maybe this could be the noticing inconsistencies between what is taught and practiced phase). Finally, it gets hotter and hotter and it's too late for the lobster to get out (the how did I get here and I'm very uncomfortable staying but "can't" leave phase). That's pretty much when we look back and say we were brainwashed to have ever gotten to that point. It's all so clear when we begin to compare notes here and with others.
That's my version of the lobster analogy. Someone else could probably do it justice, but you get the idea, lol.
People who were never involved with the organization (and even some who were) will sometimes have a hard time understanding why we stayed so long.
Here it is in a nut-shell(IMO)-----mind control.(*Never even consider*---Where have I heard that before?)
The media has painted a picture of mind control and brainwashing that depicts zombie like reactions in its victims.
Some will say, "well, we were never like that!"
Maybe the reason for that is because the Hollywood version is inaccurate.
The real version is more subtle and more deeply rooted.
Even today, 10, 20, 30 years after the fact, people still react in a programmed manner if the right stimuli are applied.
It reminds me of The Little Train Who Could
"I know I can, I know I can." Just say it until you have convinced yourself.
Try to suggest that in "the good old days" all that glittered might not have been gold and VOILA, someone is sure to react by saying, "I know it was, I know it was."
In my mind the thing that is so puzzling is not why we did not leave sooner but rather why people who have been removed for decades still can't come to grips with the reality that they were duped.
The only answer that makes sense to me is that pieces of the programmed information(ie: mind control) continue to float about the vast reaches of our minds like so much space junk.
Every so often, pieces of it come crashing into our world when the conditions are conducive.
Who bewitched us?
We bewitched ourselves. (With a great deal of assistance from TWI)
There was so much mind control. Like you are in the household of Zion and you can't leave the fortress or the adversary will rack and ruin your life and all that crap. What a bunch of bunk, but we were drawn slowly into it.
The excitement the hype, then you made friends and didn't want to lose your friends.
What's funny is no matter how much you know, it's still hard to talk someone out of twi. In fact others tried to talk me out. I wouldn't let them. I thought I was being a good "trooper". How dare you attack my beliefs.
They are pretty good at the control stuff. When it all comes down to it though you have to figure it our for yourself. WHen you see your life is going down the tubes that crap they were feeding us doesn't make sense.
Then the light comes on maybe they aren't what they say they are. Maybe? Hell no they aren't what they say they are.
Thanks to all those who have helped us see what a bunch of twits they are. Nothing but a shallow, power hungry
ego ecentric, money mongers if you ask me. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
OMG, After leaving twi 2000, I took a class that was 26 hrs or s0(exway), just covering Galatians..after getting into the depthness, certain things opened up to me about Twi, I broke down and started to cry during the class...it hit me front and center that I was betwixed and driven into LAW by the craftiness of men...resulting in forsaking JC as my Savior...and my brother....since..Ive had to rebuild and relearn many things...I still havent arrived
Skyrider, what is your answer to who bewitched us? I'm sorry, I didn't know if you had a definitive answer. Is it the list? I didn't see a person listed per se. Maybe there isn't just one.
Anyhoo, love your list, skyrider...
waterbuffalo,
My answer of WHO bewitched me and drew me away from truth is.....victor paul wierwille.
IMO, the corps indoctrination was wierwille's power-grab control over the soul and allegiance of God's elect. With cunning and isolation and deception, wierwille and his yes-men thundered for strict obedience to ever-changing rules, concepts, vocabulary, curriculum, and unwritten standards.
To this day, I detest the bewitching.....drawing us away from obeying truth and herding us towards wholesale idolatry, namely....wierwille reverence. A three-hour corps night teaching was not uncommon......followed by another meeting from martindale or the corps coordinator. And, when wierwille came to the stage in his pajamas and bathrobe (and holding his coffee/drambuie cup)....he declared A PAJAMA PARTY and every corps had twenty minutes to be back at top floor Wierwille Library in their pajamas. No exceptions!!!
Yikes!!!!........the more these memories surface, THE MORE I SEE WIERWILLE'S CULT.
Does this make sense.. I knew it was the biggest bunch of bull.... I'd heard to date, but I didn't have any better place to go, or at least I thought so?
It was used against those who left the ministry or said they wouldn't tithe when I was still in.
Yeah......Eagle, I remember that.
Seems like twi was always really good at re-directing the attention SOMEWHERE ELSE.
And, wasn't all this stuff in the context of that greek word "tarosso".....to be agitated with various emotions, a twisting, a perverting? Yep, that's how this whole context was addressed.
I've got a question concerning TWISTING scripture......
Wierwille utilizes the Old Testament account in Malachi to promote and illustrate THE NEED TO TITHE....or else one is stealing from God and DISOBEYING God's standard. Other Old Testament scripture concerning Abraham is also highlighted.
Question: Why didn't wierwille HEED and TEACH and PROMOTE the Old Testament account in Exodus 20:14......Thou shalt not commit adultery.
I've got a question concerning TWISTING scripture......
Wierwille utilizes the Old Testament account in Malachi to promote and illustrate THE NEED TO TITHE....or else one is stealing from God and DISOBEYING God's standard. Other Old Testament scripture concerning Abraham is also highlighted.
Question: Why didn't wierwille HEED and TEACH and PROMOTE the Old Testament account in Exodus 20:14......Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Like some of old business types in plaid suits in the sixties, sipping their martinis, ocassionally taking a hit from a joint.. real "cool" ya know.. real "hip"..
the "man" couldn't as much as say that sex outside of marriage was biblically speaking, WRONG..
I've got a question concerning TWISTING scripture......
Wierwille utilizes the Old Testament account in Malachi to promote and illustrate THE NEED TO TITHE....or else one is stealing from God and DISOBEYING God's standard. Other Old Testament scripture concerning Abraham is also highlighted.
Question: Why didn't wierwille HEED and TEACH and PROMOTE the Old Testament account in Exodus 20:14......Thou shalt not commit adultery.
To add further.........
SEE......NOW -- with 20/20 hindsight that's the problem I have with pfal.
It's NOT really a foundational class filled with keys for the more abundant life that Jesus Christ came to make available. It's an agenda-based presentation, a secular/marketing class that wierwille copied in the style and format of Rev. BG Leonard's class, sprinkled and frosted with enough truth to appear spiritually edible.
Like "wanting the cake and eating it too"......Wierwille stole the recipe, added to the ingredients, baked it way too long, added frilly frosting to cover the burnt areas, and SOLD IT FOR PROFIT.
....I try to remind myself of the Scriptures and WHAT THE REAL QUESTION IS.............WHO hath bewitched you?
And, for me.............GreaseSpot has answered THAT QUESTION time and time and time again.
Thanks.
:)
VP Wierwille taught me the accurate scriptures about receiving the spirit and getting born again thru the hearing of faith, not the works of the law. Galatians were bewitched because they went back to the law; thought they weren't justified by Christ's sacrifice but had to go back to the law to work for it. This happens today. Some get bewitched into thinking that faith isn't good enough, so they proceed to be justified by all manner of works.
The scripture is clear; it concludes that ALL have sinned, none of us are any better than another.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
OMG, After leaving twi 2000, I took a class that was 26 hrs or s0(exway), just covering Galatians..after getting into the depthness, certain things opened up to me about Twi, I broke down and started to cry during the class...it hit me front and center that I was betwixed and driven into LAW by the craftiness of men...resulting in forsaking JC as my Savior...and my brother....since..Ive had to rebuild and relearn many things...I still havent arrived
Thanks for sharing that. Despite my recent church experience, it still beats TWI.
Skyrider, you are right on "twisted and perverted". I heard Martindale using that phrase for people that wouldn't stand with him or give the "minimum" to the ministry.
Oldies, it is good to hear the good things on Wierwille. To be fair, I never heard the term "bewitched you" by VPW, but only after Martindale took over and only after Wierwille died.
Then again, that is not to say Wierwille didn't say it. I just never heard it from him.
I've got a question concerning TWISTING scripture......
Question: Why didn't wierwille HEED and TEACH and PROMOTE the Old Testament account in Exodus 20:14......Thou shalt not commit adultery.
That's an easy one. We're no longer under the Old Testament law. The New Testament says you're to love your neighbor and we all keep hearing about how VPW went to far on that.
He said he would never resort to raising money like churches do, bingos, socials, etc. No he just demanded the tithe which he had no right to do. Then he taught we are under grace (but the tithe was an exeption). Why, he didn't want to waste his time helping people or doing anything for people. I now think the holdong socials to raise money (ie. doing something for their people) is not a bad idea at all. Hey don't other organizations do this. It's called a fundraiser.
VP taught the tithe was an immutable law like gravity. Where in the world did he get this Nowhere in the word. But then he says everything I teach is backed up by the Word. Remember the Word and nothing but the Word. Bunk
VP put on the great show of the century, then spent the rest of his time womanizing. Yea Sky what about the adultry thing.
Was that an immutable law too that the mog could have any woman, even if she was married. The guy should have been put in jail.
when YOU need it , grace abounds and truly is the foundation of what being a christian is about.
when YOU need to forgive somone or yourself it takes a twist with a yes.. but... .
the people who have an issue with twi and the fact vpw is born again do not have a problem with vpw as much as they have a problem with the theory of the bible.
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waterbuffalo
Skyrider, what is your answer to who bewitched us? I'm sorry, I didn't know if you had a definitive answer. Is it the list? I didn't see a person listed per se. Maybe there isn't just one.
Anyhoo, love your list, skyrider. T-Bone asked the same question on another thread and it seemed to belong better over here:
That's my version of the lobster analogy. Someone else could probably do it justice, but you get the idea, lol.
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waysider
People who were never involved with the organization (and even some who were) will sometimes have a hard time understanding why we stayed so long.
Here it is in a nut-shell(IMO)-----mind control.(*Never even consider*---Where have I heard that before?)
The media has painted a picture of mind control and brainwashing that depicts zombie like reactions in its victims.
Some will say, "well, we were never like that!"
Maybe the reason for that is because the Hollywood version is inaccurate.
The real version is more subtle and more deeply rooted.
Even today, 10, 20, 30 years after the fact, people still react in a programmed manner if the right stimuli are applied.
It reminds me of The Little Train Who Could
"I know I can, I know I can." Just say it until you have convinced yourself.
Try to suggest that in "the good old days" all that glittered might not have been gold and VOILA, someone is sure to react by saying, "I know it was, I know it was."
In my mind the thing that is so puzzling is not why we did not leave sooner but rather why people who have been removed for decades still can't come to grips with the reality that they were duped.
The only answer that makes sense to me is that pieces of the programmed information(ie: mind control) continue to float about the vast reaches of our minds like so much space junk.
Every so often, pieces of it come crashing into our world when the conditions are conducive.
Who bewitched us?
We bewitched ourselves. (With a great deal of assistance from TWI)
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polar bear
Another great one Skyrider=
There was so much mind control. Like you are in the household of Zion and you can't leave the fortress or the adversary will rack and ruin your life and all that crap. What a bunch of bunk, but we were drawn slowly into it.
The excitement the hype, then you made friends and didn't want to lose your friends.
What's funny is no matter how much you know, it's still hard to talk someone out of twi. In fact others tried to talk me out. I wouldn't let them. I thought I was being a good "trooper". How dare you attack my beliefs.
They are pretty good at the control stuff. When it all comes down to it though you have to figure it our for yourself. WHen you see your life is going down the tubes that crap they were feeding us doesn't make sense.
Then the light comes on maybe they aren't what they say they are. Maybe? Hell no they aren't what they say they are.
Thanks to all those who have helped us see what a bunch of twits they are. Nothing but a shallow, power hungry
ego ecentric, money mongers if you ask me. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
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likeaneagle
OMG, After leaving twi 2000, I took a class that was 26 hrs or s0(exway), just covering Galatians..after getting into the depthness, certain things opened up to me about Twi, I broke down and started to cry during the class...it hit me front and center that I was betwixed and driven into LAW by the craftiness of men...resulting in forsaking JC as my Savior...and my brother....since..Ive had to rebuild and relearn many things...I still havent arrived
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skyrider
waterbuffalo,
My answer of WHO bewitched me and drew me away from truth is.....victor paul wierwille.
IMO, the corps indoctrination was wierwille's power-grab control over the soul and allegiance of God's elect. With cunning and isolation and deception, wierwille and his yes-men thundered for strict obedience to ever-changing rules, concepts, vocabulary, curriculum, and unwritten standards.
To this day, I detest the bewitching.....drawing us away from obeying truth and herding us towards wholesale idolatry, namely....wierwille reverence. A three-hour corps night teaching was not uncommon......followed by another meeting from martindale or the corps coordinator. And, when wierwille came to the stage in his pajamas and bathrobe (and holding his coffee/drambuie cup)....he declared A PAJAMA PARTY and every corps had twenty minutes to be back at top floor Wierwille Library in their pajamas. No exceptions!!!
Yikes!!!!........the more these memories surface, THE MORE I SEE WIERWILLE'S CULT.
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doojable
It does make you wonder, doesn't it Skyrider?
It occured to me once, towards the end of my tenure in TWI, that we had our own "secret language."
* SIT
* PFAL
*"I have an opportunity..."
* WOW
* "Where's your believing?"
I bet we did look and sound mighty strange to many. Not so bad when it's coming from a teen - but when grown adults talk this way....
Not good. <_<
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Eagle
That phrase "Who has bewitched you" cracks me up.
It was used against those who left the ministry or said they wouldn't tithe when I was still in.
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Ham
hmmm. Well..
Does this make sense.. I knew it was the biggest bunch of bull.... I'd heard to date, but I didn't have any better place to go, or at least I thought so?
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skyrider
Yeah......Eagle, I remember that.
Seems like twi was always really good at re-directing the attention SOMEWHERE ELSE.
And, wasn't all this stuff in the context of that greek word "tarosso".....to be agitated with various emotions, a twisting, a perverting? Yep, that's how this whole context was addressed.
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likeaneagle
tarraso- wasnt that the word for fear...like the roar of the lion..it freezes its prey..
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skyrider
I've got a question concerning TWISTING scripture......
Wierwille utilizes the Old Testament account in Malachi to promote and illustrate THE NEED TO TITHE....or else one is stealing from God and DISOBEYING God's standard. Other Old Testament scripture concerning Abraham is also highlighted.
Question: Why didn't wierwille HEED and TEACH and PROMOTE the Old Testament account in Exodus 20:14......Thou shalt not commit adultery.
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waterbuffalo
Is that a rhetorical question, lol????
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doojable
There was no money to be made ...
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Ham
Yeah.. besides.. the "old man" didn't exactly want to appear to be a fuddy duddy, did he?
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doojable
:blink: Did you SEE him in the class? :blink:
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Ham
maybe the word I was looking for was reputation.
Like some of old business types in plaid suits in the sixties, sipping their martinis, ocassionally taking a hit from a joint.. real "cool" ya know.. real "hip"..
the "man" couldn't as much as say that sex outside of marriage was biblically speaking, WRONG..
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def59
I stayed so long because TWI had convinced me there was nowhere else to go.
Since then I have found the church was a welcoming place and have a stronger faith.
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skyrider
To add further.........
SEE......NOW -- with 20/20 hindsight that's the problem I have with pfal.
It's NOT really a foundational class filled with keys for the more abundant life that Jesus Christ came to make available. It's an agenda-based presentation, a secular/marketing class that wierwille copied in the style and format of Rev. BG Leonard's class, sprinkled and frosted with enough truth to appear spiritually edible.
Like "wanting the cake and eating it too"......Wierwille stole the recipe, added to the ingredients, baked it way too long, added frilly frosting to cover the burnt areas, and SOLD IT FOR PROFIT.
<_<
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oldiesman
VP Wierwille taught me the accurate scriptures about receiving the spirit and getting born again thru the hearing of faith, not the works of the law. Galatians were bewitched because they went back to the law; thought they weren't justified by Christ's sacrifice but had to go back to the law to work for it. This happens today. Some get bewitched into thinking that faith isn't good enough, so they proceed to be justified by all manner of works.
The scripture is clear; it concludes that ALL have sinned, none of us are any better than another.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
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excathedra
awww
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Eagle
def59:
Thanks for sharing that. Despite my recent church experience, it still beats TWI.
Skyrider, you are right on "twisted and perverted". I heard Martindale using that phrase for people that wouldn't stand with him or give the "minimum" to the ministry.
Oldies, it is good to hear the good things on Wierwille. To be fair, I never heard the term "bewitched you" by VPW, but only after Martindale took over and only after Wierwille died.
Then again, that is not to say Wierwille didn't say it. I just never heard it from him.
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What The Hey
That's an easy one. We're no longer under the Old Testament law. The New Testament says you're to love your neighbor and we all keep hearing about how VPW went to far on that.
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polar bear
Yea Sky-
You hit the nail right on the head there.
VP was all about "the show".
He said he would never resort to raising money like churches do, bingos, socials, etc. No he just demanded the tithe which he had no right to do. Then he taught we are under grace (but the tithe was an exeption). Why, he didn't want to waste his time helping people or doing anything for people. I now think the holdong socials to raise money (ie. doing something for their people) is not a bad idea at all. Hey don't other organizations do this. It's called a fundraiser.
VP taught the tithe was an immutable law like gravity. Where in the world did he get this Nowhere in the word. But then he says everything I teach is backed up by the Word. Remember the Word and nothing but the Word. Bunk
VP put on the great show of the century, then spent the rest of his time womanizing. Yea Sky what about the adultry thing.
Was that an immutable law too that the mog could have any woman, even if she was married. The guy should have been put in jail.
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pond
it is a sometimes grace thing.
when YOU need it , grace abounds and truly is the foundation of what being a christian is about.
when YOU need to forgive somone or yourself it takes a twist with a yes.. but... .
the people who have an issue with twi and the fact vpw is born again do not have a problem with vpw as much as they have a problem with the theory of the bible.
it is not a if or whatever or maybe theory.
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