Since Jesus didn’t stop everything and go on a literal fast before he cast out the spirit, I assume it’s figurative. In general, from the verses below, I understand fasting as a heart thing, and humility.
Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Seems to me what Jesus was saying the requirement for casting out the spirit was a mind focused on God and humility.
The context of the record:
Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
Mar 9:22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
I think Jesus was perfectly capable of casting this spirit out whether the man believed and got humble or not. I think he said these things to teach him where and how the deliverance comes from. That is the same lesson he later teaches the disciples.
Very interesting. When I heard Ch@rles Stanley teach it, he went on to teach that fasting was not just a food thing but stopping a behavior we may do everyday. When praying for deliverance here, I tried to keep secular music out of the house as it had been a big deal here.
I forget all he taught at this point. But that verse always baffled me. Like why can't this one come out with just prayer? I assumed after hearing Stanley, that a behavior left the door open and it also had to close.
Also is it that the praying person needs to "pray and fast" or the person being delivered needs to "pray and fast" And Jesus didn't say he would pray and fast, but told them about prayer and fasting.
I never got this whole thing and that may have lead to my fear, that "this kind" didn't come out unless prayer AND FASTING was involved.... And never being clear on fasting, I guess I didn't get the formula right
Also is it that the praying person needs to "pray and fast" or the person being delivered needs to "pray and fast" And Jesus didn't say he would pray and fast, but told them about prayer and fasting.
Just going from this account, here's what I see.
A) Person needs deliverance, and has no control over themself.
B) Jesus just goes and casts out a demon almost instantly, sorta "from the hip".
C) the demon is successfully cast out
D) Jesus said the only way to cast out this type of demon is "prayer and fasting".
Since we saw neither Jesus nor the demonaic praying nor fasting before the deliverance,
I see that Jesus-unless lying- was saying that he prayed and fasted
BEFORE THERE WAS A CRISIS.
Jesus REGULARLY prayed and fasted,
and as a result, was able to cast out the demon pretty fast and without ceremony.
That's not the part I'm wondering about, though.
I'm wondering if "and fasting" belongs in the accpunt at all,
or if it was added by a well-meaning Christian who came along later.
having reviewed all the evidence I have convenient access to,
I'm prepared to state what conclusions I have at this time,
pending any new information overriding current considerations.
Forgive me for rambling- this doesn't warrant a bland statement "and this is what it is."
=========
Concerning the usage of fasting at the time of Jesus, indisputably, it was done.
Jesus said that hypocrites made sure others knew they were fasting, as a display of how pious they were.
Matthew 6:16-18
16" Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
17"But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face
18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."
So, we know some people fasted, for whatever reason.
We also know the disciples(students) of John the Baptist fasted.
Mark 2:18-19
"18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
19And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast."
I believe it's safe to say their motives were good. (Matthew 9:14 makes the same point.)
After Pentecost, the disciples of Jesus fasted.
Acts 13:2-3.
" 2While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."
Acts 14:23.
"23When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed."
Jesus himself fasted, we also know.
Matthew 4:2.
"2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry."
The same incident is described in Luke 4:2 as well.
Obviously, if Jesus did it, the reasons were sound. What the SPECIFIC reasons were at the time would need to
be determined, however.
An argument can be made that he fasted regularly- but it's not in Scripture.
An argument can be made that he only fasted rarely- which is why it's not in Scripture.
If he did NOT fast, it's not in Scripture because he didn't do it. Same, say, as the verses that don't exist where he
didn't smoke cigarettes. He didn't do it, so there's no verses addressing it.
If he DID fast, and there are no regular references to it, then the regular fasting was not critical to the Gospel accounts.
The disciples seem to have fasted at specific times, when praying for a specific purpose, and each occurrence was with prayer.
(Luke 2:36-38 and I Corinthians 7:5 seem to make the same case.)
I conclude the following, so far:
Fasting was not considered critical by Jesus for the everyday walk of the Christian. He DID, however, consider it important
at specific times, and criticized those who fasted only to use it as a display of their supposed piety.
The disciples did fast, and when they did, there were specific purposes, and in each they prayed during their fast,
each of which was before action taken. Was it specifically to focus for revelation, or was it for the efficacy of the prayer
Now then, what about the specific verses we are talking about?
KJV
Matthew 17:21
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
KJV
Mark 9:29
And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
This is anomalous in Scripture. Fasting and prayer are steady, ongoing activities.
In these 2 instances-and ONLY these 2 instances- are they connected with an instant activity.
Someone needs deliverance from a demon, and Jesus commands the demon to leave, and it leaves.
KJV
Matthew 17:14-21.
"14And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
KJV
Mark 9:14-29
"14And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
15And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
16And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."
=====
What literally happened in the verses?
Judging from the verses preceeding and following, they describe the same incident.
We know (Matthew 10:1) that the 12, at least, had authority to cast out demons.
In this PARTICULAR case, they tried to, and were unable to.
We know this was an extreme case- the boy was unable to speak, and tried to kill himself when he was under demonic influence.
This looks like full-blown possession, where the boy was unable to make any choices during the incidents.
This oppressed him for a number of years (since he was a child).
Jesus is very matter-of-fact about this, and seems to be frustrated his disciples didn't cast him out.
The boy had some sort of seizure or attack when he was brought to Jesus.
There's an interesting comment, which sounds like Jesus is instructing the boy's father, then cuts it short when
the crowd begins approaching.
Jesus commands the demon to exit the boy, and to never return to him.
The results are dramatic and instant- the demon leaves within seconds, trying not to, apparently.
Immediately after that, the boy collapses.
There's no lengthy ceremony, no ritual, no somatic or material components.
An instant of "zap" and whammo! the demon is dragged out reluctantly.
The disciples ask how he could do that, when their best efforts didn't bring results.
His reply is the verse under contention, in each case.....
"In the NIV, Matthew 17:21 (kjv) is entirely missing. Why? To answer that question we should first turn to Mark 9:29. There Jesus is reported as saying to his disciples: “This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting” (kjv). I once heard a godly missionary say, “If you don’t get the answer to your prayer, then fast, and God will have to answer your petition.” But that is magic—manipulating God—not true religion.
The fact is that “and fasting” is not found in our two fourth-century manuscripts (cf.niv). It apparently was added in the fifth century, when much emphasis was being given to Gnostic asceticism and to monasticism. Then the whole of Mark 9:29 was inserted in Matthew. But Matthew 17:21 is not found in our two earliest manuscripts, as well as in the best ninth-century codex. At best it is doubtful whether these words are genuine, and so they should not be emphasized."
Up this thread, theInvisibleDan gave a specific reference for this same point.
Now, I'm aware that some people are quite reactionary when someone approaches the idea that THEIR version might have
an incorrect verse that was inserted long ago. Often, the response is how the student doesn't like the Bible, or doesn't
like the verse and doesn't respect the Bible enough to treat it honestly when faced with inconvenient truths.
To that, I'll quote the end of the page on that IBS link.
"All these facts that we have been rehearsing may seem rather disconcerting to the average reader. But, as we noted before, with thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament now at our disposal, we can reach a high degree of certainty with regard to the probability of the best text. It should be added that comparative statistical studies indicate that all Greek manuscripts are in essential agreement on at least 95 percent of the New Testament text. Significant differences exist, then, in less than 5 percent of the total text. And it must be said emphatically that none of these variant readings poses any problem as to the basic doctrines of the Bible. They are intact! We should like to add that all the members of the Committee on Bible Translation are devout Evangelicals, believing in the infallibility of the Bible as God’s Word. We have all sought earnestly to represent as accurately as possible what seems to be, as nearly as we can determine, the original text of the New Testament."
Therefore,
pending some compelling textual proof,
I find it highly unlikely that the original texts had EITHER verse,
and any doctrine based ENTIRELY on them is NOT based on The Word of God as given by God.
Therefore, the difficulty of casting out demonaics being overcome by fasting, in and of itself,
that's something man invented.
The discipline of prayer-and of fasting- certainly would do no harm to the praying Christian,
and may well help. However, our Lord did not himself state fasting was necessary when
casting out demons.
Again, fasting-when done carefully- is not a bad thing, and there are verses showing it is of use-
You have no idea how trapped I was thinking -- well my prayers did not work as I am not doing the right fast, or doing it long enough, or do both of us have to fast, or just him?
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another spot
Since Jesus didn’t stop everything and go on a literal fast before he cast out the spirit, I assume it’s figurative. In general, from the verses below, I understand fasting as a heart thing, and humility.
Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Seems to me what Jesus was saying the requirement for casting out the spirit was a mind focused on God and humility.
The context of the record:
Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
Mar 9:22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
I think Jesus was perfectly capable of casting this spirit out whether the man believed and got humble or not. I think he said these things to teach him where and how the deliverance comes from. That is the same lesson he later teaches the disciples.
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Dot Matrix
WW
Very interesting. When I heard Ch@rles Stanley teach it, he went on to teach that fasting was not just a food thing but stopping a behavior we may do everyday. When praying for deliverance here, I tried to keep secular music out of the house as it had been a big deal here.
I forget all he taught at this point. But that verse always baffled me. Like why can't this one come out with just prayer? I assumed after hearing Stanley, that a behavior left the door open and it also had to close.
I am interested to see how this goes...
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Dot Matrix
Also is it that the praying person needs to "pray and fast" or the person being delivered needs to "pray and fast" And Jesus didn't say he would pray and fast, but told them about prayer and fasting.
I never got this whole thing and that may have lead to my fear, that "this kind" didn't come out unless prayer AND FASTING was involved.... And never being clear on fasting, I guess I didn't get the formula right
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WordWolf
Just going from this account, here's what I see.
A) Person needs deliverance, and has no control over themself.
B) Jesus just goes and casts out a demon almost instantly, sorta "from the hip".
C) the demon is successfully cast out
D) Jesus said the only way to cast out this type of demon is "prayer and fasting".
Since we saw neither Jesus nor the demonaic praying nor fasting before the deliverance,
I see that Jesus-unless lying- was saying that he prayed and fasted
BEFORE THERE WAS A CRISIS.
Jesus REGULARLY prayed and fasted,
and as a result, was able to cast out the demon pretty fast and without ceremony.
That's not the part I'm wondering about, though.
I'm wondering if "and fasting" belongs in the accpunt at all,
or if it was added by a well-meaning Christian who came along later.
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TheInvisibleDan
Many mss. omit altogether this line of Matt.17:21, "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
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WordWolf
That's interesting.
Can I look this up anywhere you have handy? (I like to corroborate this stuff.)
It looks like there's suspicion on BOTH of the only 2 mentions of "prayer and fasting"
in the Bible.
(The other may simply say "prayer".)
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Dot Matrix
I hope you guys get it figured cause it has really bothered me.
Like that particular spirit was more difficult than others or something. It has always puzzled me.
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WordWolf
Give me a week.
Today isn't a good day for me to dig into this, but I raised the question so that others can address it as well.
(I like to learn from many sources whenever possible, rather than few.)
This has been bugging me since about 1990, and I think NOW is when I'm finally going to get some sort of answers
on this one.
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TheInvisibleDan
Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine , 27th edition, 1984, 1997, Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft;
p.48 (Greek text), p.49 (Latin text).
In the case of Matt.17:21, it's left out in both the Greek and Latin critical texts, and consequently popular
English translations omit it (RSV, NIV) as well as the not-so-popular ( New World Translation, Concordant, Schonfield
'Original NT').
Danny
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Eagle
The verse appears to be a later addition to that gospel and not supposed to be in there.
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Dot Matrix
WW
It has been a week....
Dan
So, all this time I thought I had to do something "extra" for this kind
It was an added error?
Boy, that miffs and delivers me.
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WordWolf
Ok,
having reviewed all the evidence I have convenient access to,
I'm prepared to state what conclusions I have at this time,
pending any new information overriding current considerations.
Forgive me for rambling- this doesn't warrant a bland statement "and this is what it is."
=========
Concerning the usage of fasting at the time of Jesus, indisputably, it was done.
Jesus said that hypocrites made sure others knew they were fasting, as a display of how pious they were.
Matthew 6:16-18
16" Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
17"But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face
18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."
So, we know some people fasted, for whatever reason.
We also know the disciples(students) of John the Baptist fasted.
Mark 2:18-19
"18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
19And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast."
I believe it's safe to say their motives were good. (Matthew 9:14 makes the same point.)
After Pentecost, the disciples of Jesus fasted.
Acts 13:2-3.
" 2While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."
Acts 14:23.
"23When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed."
Jesus himself fasted, we also know.
Matthew 4:2.
"2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry."
The same incident is described in Luke 4:2 as well.
Obviously, if Jesus did it, the reasons were sound. What the SPECIFIC reasons were at the time would need to
be determined, however.
An argument can be made that he fasted regularly- but it's not in Scripture.
An argument can be made that he only fasted rarely- which is why it's not in Scripture.
If he did NOT fast, it's not in Scripture because he didn't do it. Same, say, as the verses that don't exist where he
didn't smoke cigarettes. He didn't do it, so there's no verses addressing it.
If he DID fast, and there are no regular references to it, then the regular fasting was not critical to the Gospel accounts.
The disciples seem to have fasted at specific times, when praying for a specific purpose, and each occurrence was with prayer.
(Luke 2:36-38 and I Corinthians 7:5 seem to make the same case.)
I conclude the following, so far:
Fasting was not considered critical by Jesus for the everyday walk of the Christian. He DID, however, consider it important
at specific times, and criticized those who fasted only to use it as a display of their supposed piety.
The disciples did fast, and when they did, there were specific purposes, and in each they prayed during their fast,
each of which was before action taken. Was it specifically to focus for revelation, or was it for the efficacy of the prayer
at the time? Uncertain from the verses.
As for the specific verses we're asking about...
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WordWolf
Now then, what about the specific verses we are talking about?
KJV
Matthew 17:21
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
KJV
Mark 9:29
And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
This is anomalous in Scripture. Fasting and prayer are steady, ongoing activities.
In these 2 instances-and ONLY these 2 instances- are they connected with an instant activity.
Someone needs deliverance from a demon, and Jesus commands the demon to leave, and it leaves.
KJV
Matthew 17:14-21.
"14And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
KJV
Mark 9:14-29
"14And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
15And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
16And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."
=====
What literally happened in the verses?
Judging from the verses preceeding and following, they describe the same incident.
We know (Matthew 10:1) that the 12, at least, had authority to cast out demons.
In this PARTICULAR case, they tried to, and were unable to.
We know this was an extreme case- the boy was unable to speak, and tried to kill himself when he was under demonic influence.
This looks like full-blown possession, where the boy was unable to make any choices during the incidents.
This oppressed him for a number of years (since he was a child).
Jesus is very matter-of-fact about this, and seems to be frustrated his disciples didn't cast him out.
The boy had some sort of seizure or attack when he was brought to Jesus.
There's an interesting comment, which sounds like Jesus is instructing the boy's father, then cuts it short when
the crowd begins approaching.
Jesus commands the demon to exit the boy, and to never return to him.
The results are dramatic and instant- the demon leaves within seconds, trying not to, apparently.
Immediately after that, the boy collapses.
There's no lengthy ceremony, no ritual, no somatic or material components.
An instant of "zap" and whammo! the demon is dragged out reluctantly.
The disciples ask how he could do that, when their best efforts didn't bring results.
His reply is the verse under contention, in each case.....
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WordWolf
Now then, what COULD be meant?
Obviously, Jesus did not fast AT THAT MOMENT when casting the demon out.
Fasting is an activity that takes time.
Therefore, if Jesus fasted in relation to this instance, it was long before it.
IF Jesus meant prayer and fasting was needed for casting out demons of this difficulty,
he meant that one had to pray and fast some previous time, probably REGULARLY.
Why would this be relevant?
Judging from the Acts accounts, there's a certain amount of discipline in connection with
prayer and fasting. This would appear to affect the "punch" of his effectiveness.
At least, that's what he's saying here.
A more fundamental question, however, is- did Jesus say this at all?
I've been looking over different responses to this question, raised by myself and by others.
The responses seem to fall into 2 camps.
(If I wanted, there would be 3 camps, with the 3rd saying
"the Bible is all wrong, don't bother to be a Christian." I'm skipping that in general but including
it in the interest of completeness.)
Camp 1 says
"These verses have been used for centuries, and many manuscripts use them."
Personally, I detect a distinct scent of "how dare you question the traditional versions!" in them.
A fine example of that is here:
http://www.tyndale.org/TSJ/13/thiede.html
In admitting that 2 of the main codexes show this missing (Mark 9:29), the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus,
it still insists that "well, Tyndale didn't include it centuries ago, and that's just fine with us."
In the latter 1/2 of the 20th century, a large number of parchments have shed light on textual problems that
were impenetrable centuries ago, and most of the ones I've seen were the result of ADDED verses.
In this page, the arguer ended by saying that some texts obviously DELETED verses, but that's far, far, FAR less
common than ADDING verses. Occasionally, a translator meant well and added something-either from another gospel,
or to add a dramatic and "appropriate" flourish, but rarely did a translator just remove a verse.
Statistically, that alone would get me suspicious.
A number of us are familiar with the fact that LATER works on original texts get progressively more accurate,
as more documents are compared, and translators get closer and closer to the original texts in their own attempts
to overcome Zeno's Paradox. (I'm highly in favour of this effort, of course.) That's why even the KJV has been
tweaked over the centuries, and versions from the 2nd 1/2 of the 20th century are held as more accurate than
versions from before the 20th century. (Unless you're of the camp that your denomination has THE version,
in which case whatever year that one was made is THE year.)
The International Bible Society- which is a legitimate organization that's been around for a while-
said this about BOTH verses:
http://www.ibs.org/niv/mct/4.php
"In the NIV, Matthew 17:21 (kjv) is entirely missing. Why? To answer that question we should first turn to Mark 9:29. There Jesus is reported as saying to his disciples: “This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting” (kjv). I once heard a godly missionary say, “If you don’t get the answer to your prayer, then fast, and God will have to answer your petition.” But that is magic—manipulating God—not true religion.
The fact is that “and fasting” is not found in our two fourth-century manuscripts (cf.niv). It apparently was added in the fifth century, when much emphasis was being given to Gnostic asceticism and to monasticism. Then the whole of Mark 9:29 was inserted in Matthew. But Matthew 17:21 is not found in our two earliest manuscripts, as well as in the best ninth-century codex. At best it is doubtful whether these words are genuine, and so they should not be emphasized."
Up this thread, theInvisibleDan gave a specific reference for this same point.
Now, I'm aware that some people are quite reactionary when someone approaches the idea that THEIR version might have
an incorrect verse that was inserted long ago. Often, the response is how the student doesn't like the Bible, or doesn't
like the verse and doesn't respect the Bible enough to treat it honestly when faced with inconvenient truths.
To that, I'll quote the end of the page on that IBS link.
"All these facts that we have been rehearsing may seem rather disconcerting to the average reader. But, as we noted before, with thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament now at our disposal, we can reach a high degree of certainty with regard to the probability of the best text. It should be added that comparative statistical studies indicate that all Greek manuscripts are in essential agreement on at least 95 percent of the New Testament text. Significant differences exist, then, in less than 5 percent of the total text. And it must be said emphatically that none of these variant readings poses any problem as to the basic doctrines of the Bible. They are intact! We should like to add that all the members of the Committee on Bible Translation are devout Evangelicals, believing in the infallibility of the Bible as God’s Word. We have all sought earnestly to represent as accurately as possible what seems to be, as nearly as we can determine, the original text of the New Testament."
Therefore,
pending some compelling textual proof,
I find it highly unlikely that the original texts had EITHER verse,
and any doctrine based ENTIRELY on them is NOT based on The Word of God as given by God.
Therefore, the difficulty of casting out demonaics being overcome by fasting, in and of itself,
that's something man invented.
The discipline of prayer-and of fasting- certainly would do no harm to the praying Christian,
and may well help. However, our Lord did not himself state fasting was necessary when
casting out demons.
Again, fasting-when done carefully- is not a bad thing, and there are verses showing it is of use-
just not THIS use.
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You have no idea how trapped I was thinking -- well my prayers did not work as I am not doing the right fast, or doing it long enough, or do both of us have to fast, or just him?
I have been spinning over this
Thank you
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