this is good news,,,,,but,,,, i can tell you that i and many vets saluted the flag wether those people in washington want us to or not,,,but i do salute the senator who went foward with this
when going to a vets funeral or at a parade i cant imagine not saluting the flag and i salute you now for the info thanks
What about civilians or relatives of those in the military? Can we salute the flag if we love it just as much? While I always do in my head and heart, doing it for real, would feel so much better. Does anyone know the answer to this?
My daddy was Air Force, my cousin was a Seal who didn't make it back from Nam, my daughter's father was Army and her husband today is in the military, so I consider myself as having a son in, who's going to Afghanistan in 8 months for a year or more. I have a very close friend (he's ex Way in fact) who's going to Iraq very soon. So yes, I also would love to salute our flag openly at the appropriate times, but am not sure if that's considered something the public are to do if they are not a vet personally and only related to many.
I'd surely appreciate it if one of you know the answer, so I know how to act the next time such an occasion would arise. If it's not something for non vets, then I will continue to put my hand over my heart as the flag passes.
When my son was in Scouts, it used to rub me the wrong way when leaders who were not in full uniform (Sneakers, ball cap , shirt not tucked, etc.) would salute for the pledge. Ironically, it was not because of the heart of the law but because of the letter of the law. Now that the letter of the law has changed, maybe this won't seem so bad. Just a thought.
It seems to me that the law as it formerly stood (vets - not in uniform, no salute) was primarily symbolic. Who, at a ballgame especially, is going to arrest a veteran for saluting? I would hope the answer properly is NOone.
Likewise, I see this newly enacted law as essentially symbolic. As such, it would (for veterans aware of it) encourage them to salute.
Further, BB, I can't imagine anyone really giving you a hard time for saluting the flag.
For myself, I also had not been aware of the prior prohibition... and now, when I remember, will salute.
As a Senior member in the Navy I can speak with some autority on this subject.
Placing your hand over your heart and standing at attention is the ONLY appropriate way for civilians and Vets to honor the flag.
Active duty military members are required, per regulation, to stand at attention (no salute) when not in uniform at the playing of the National Anthem, Parading of the Colors, and when reciting the Pledge of Alliegence.
Today, you must be covered in order to render a salute. (Wearing your uniform hat) Therefore, when in civlian clothes at a ball game or parade, the appropriate thing to do is stand at attention.
I don't agree with the good senator. While the salute is regarded as a symbol of respect, it should be left for those currently in uniform. There are better things the senator could be doing with his time. Namely ensuring our Vets are properly taken care of...
Fun knowldge: The history of the Salute dates back to the Renaissance period when knights used to raise the face shield of their armor when addressing a competitor.
As a Senior member in the Navy I can speak with some autority on this subject.
With all due respect, sir, you are making a statement of opinion rather than authority.
The legal code is the authority and I'm troubled by the concept of a senior member of the military that might not know the difference between that and his personal opinion.
Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that maybe the LDO part of the poster's handle are just his initials and not a statement of rank.
Just tryin' to give the benefit of a doubt here.
That could well have been my mistake.
Being a servicemember of the US Navy, the phrase LDO is a very common phrase and designates a small section of lower ranking commissioned officers. So when I read 'LDO USN' I just assumed as much.
For years, I have commonly signed things ET1(SS), since that was my title among fellow servicemembers. And I have spent a lot of time being called 'ET1'.
Likewise I have known men who were commonly called: "LDO", generally not on subs though, mostly on target ships [you know the ones that float up on the surface and make lots of noise in the water as they stir it up].
Wow, I didn't think that I'd have to do this but here goes:
I am Senior Chief (E-8) currenly stationed in Washington D. C. Most would consider this to be senior as this is the second to the hightest rank in the Enlisted force. My handle (LDO USN) does in fact refer to "Limited Duty Officer", as I was selected for this Commission right around the time I registered here on GSC a few year ago. However, I was also selected and promoted to Chief the same year and I opted to remain enlisted as being a Navy Chief had always been my goal. I just never went back and changed the handle. I will eventually reapply for the commission.
I never refered to myself as a "senior officer" as Galen says; rather a senior member. However, to refer to an LDO as not senior really is incorrect. Only those enlisted members E7 eligible and up are allowed to apply for this commission. Yes, once commissioned they are considered a Junior Officer, but that is ONLY in rank. They are the technical experts and far from junior in they eyes of the Chain of Command.
I'm sure that the many Limited Duty Officer (LDO) members who are Luitenant Commander (O-4), Commander (O-5) and
Captain (O-6), would greatly disagree with you, Galen. (...and you would NEVER call an LDO, "LDO". You address them by their rank or sir or ma'am) Your misinformation is suprising as you were "a lowly E6 with 20+ years active duty".
Now, regarding the Hand Salute and Jim's comments:
The rules that govern active duty Navy members, called Navy Regulations, specifically Paragraph 1207.3 states: "...Service members not in uniform are to stand at attention."
U.S. Flag Code Title 4, Chapter 1, Sec. 4 (which the senator is trying to change) states "Military members in uniform are to stand at attention and render a hand salute. Veterans, Civlilans and others are to stand at attention and place their right hand over their heart."
I could have been more specific in what I disagree with. The idea of an Active duty Sailor rendering a hand salute while in uniform is bothersome (my opinion) and against regulation (the Navy's opinion). I am not necessarily against Veterans saluting, but it seems to me that they should follow the regulations that current active duty members follow. However, I believe that the Senator should be focusing on the lack of medical care, VA benefits and other like things rather than working on their right to salute. The VA has much more important troubles worth his effort.
We have very few LDOs on subs. My understanidng was that the target fleet had set limits on how high an LDO can advance in rank.
As to beards, I have wore a beard for the majority of my active duty career. [1976 to 1983, and 1987 to 2001]
During both of my shore duty tours working Law Enforcement, I shaved. However once back onboard subs, obviously I wore a beard as has been the norm on subs.
I retired wearing a beard. Wonderful photos of my ceremony.
Yes I do wear a beard today. It is currently longer than Navy regs actually calls for, and I do wear it when I am in dress unifrom. Just as I did while I was still serving on active duty. Granted when I was on active duty, I maintained it to the proscribed length. :)
... I am Senior Chief (E-8) currenly stationed in Washington D. C. Most would consider this to be senior as this is the second to the hightest rank in the Enlisted force. ...
One question for you Senior, what about the MCPON? Isn't there one enlisted rank or position above a regular Master chief?
... I'm sure that the many Limited Duty Officer (LDO) members who are Luitenant Commander (O-4), Commander (O-5) and Captain (O-6), would greatly disagree with you, Galen. (...and you would NEVER call an LDO, "LDO". You address them by their rank or sir or ma'am) Your misinformation is suprising as you were "a lowly E6 with 20+ years active duty".
I have never served in a Division or Department on any sub, that had a LDO in it. The only LDOs onboard that I recall were the Supply Officers, and they insisted on being called 'Chop'. To call them by their rank, was only done when they were bieng 'dressed down', or being chewed out by a line officer.
I have served at two Navy Base Police Departments that each had an LDO serving in the position as 'Base Security Officer', they were commonly called 'Security Officer' or 'LDO' [rather than 'JG', or 'LT'].
'sir' implies that you dont know their proper title, or that you are upset with them and refusing to use their proper title.
... I believe that the Senator should be focusing on the lack of medical care, VA benefits and other like things rather than working on their right to salute. The VA has much more important troubles worth his effort.
There was a time when LDOs were limited in rank to LCDR (O4). That changed in the late 1990s or early 2000s. I don't recall when. There are now many O6/CAPT LDOs. In the past few years regulations have changed and there are now many Commanding Officers who are LDOs. They can't command a vessel, but squadrons, bases and reserve centers are full of them
Commissioned Officers, Line or "Mustang" (wheather LDO or Warrant (a whole different topic)) have no difference in entitlements. However, an LDO Ensign who was previously a Chief would certainly be the expert to turn to as apposed to the 22 year old college graduate of equal rank.
BTW: Thanks for your service. Still don't agree with the beard... I'll never understand you Bubbleheads. :)
There was a time when LDOs were limited in rank to LCDR (O4). That changed in the late 1990s or early 2000s. I don't recall when. There are now many O6/CAPT LDOs. In the past few years regulations have changed and there are now many Commanding Officers who are LDOs. They can't command a vessel, but squadrons, bases and reserve centers are full of them
Commissioned Officers, Line or "Mustang" (wheather LDO or Warrant (a whole different topic)) have no difference in entitlements. However, an LDO Ensign who was previously a Chief would certainly be the expert to turn to as apposed to the 22 year old college graduate of equal rank.
Thank you, I did not know that such had changed. I suppose that time does march on.
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coolchef
this is good news,,,,,but,,,, i can tell you that i and many vets saluted the flag wether those people in washington want us to or not,,,but i do salute the senator who went foward with this
when going to a vets funeral or at a parade i cant imagine not saluting the flag and i salute you now for the info thanks
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Eagle
Thank you! I can treat the Flag with even better respect! Well, just like I proudly did in uniform! Love that! Same for all vets here at G.S.
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BikerBabe
What about civilians or relatives of those in the military? Can we salute the flag if we love it just as much? While I always do in my head and heart, doing it for real, would feel so much better. Does anyone know the answer to this?
My daddy was Air Force, my cousin was a Seal who didn't make it back from Nam, my daughter's father was Army and her husband today is in the military, so I consider myself as having a son in, who's going to Afghanistan in 8 months for a year or more. I have a very close friend (he's ex Way in fact) who's going to Iraq very soon. So yes, I also would love to salute our flag openly at the appropriate times, but am not sure if that's considered something the public are to do if they are not a vet personally and only related to many.
I'd surely appreciate it if one of you know the answer, so I know how to act the next time such an occasion would arise. If it's not something for non vets, then I will continue to put my hand over my heart as the flag passes.
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Galen
As retired military, I usually salute.
But then I wear a dress uniform in parades too :)
I attend VFW meetings [where I am the post chaplain], and all vets there salute the flag.
I was not aware that any such law existed to direct us not to salute.
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waysider
When my son was in Scouts, it used to rub me the wrong way when leaders who were not in full uniform (Sneakers, ball cap , shirt not tucked, etc.) would salute for the pledge. Ironically, it was not because of the heart of the law but because of the letter of the law. Now that the letter of the law has changed, maybe this won't seem so bad. Just a thought.
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Kit Sober
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Rocky
It seems to me that the law as it formerly stood (vets - not in uniform, no salute) was primarily symbolic. Who, at a ballgame especially, is going to arrest a veteran for saluting? I would hope the answer properly is NOone.
Likewise, I see this newly enacted law as essentially symbolic. As such, it would (for veterans aware of it) encourage them to salute.
Further, BB, I can't imagine anyone really giving you a hard time for saluting the flag.
For myself, I also had not been aware of the prior prohibition... and now, when I remember, will salute.
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likeaneagle
I will tell this to my daughter who volunteered for "Operation Iraqi Freedom"!
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coolchef
bb i believe the proper way for a non vet to salute is placing your hand over your heart
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LDO USN
As a Senior member in the Navy I can speak with some autority on this subject.
Placing your hand over your heart and standing at attention is the ONLY appropriate way for civilians and Vets to honor the flag.
Active duty military members are required, per regulation, to stand at attention (no salute) when not in uniform at the playing of the National Anthem, Parading of the Colors, and when reciting the Pledge of Alliegence.
Today, you must be covered in order to render a salute. (Wearing your uniform hat) Therefore, when in civlian clothes at a ball game or parade, the appropriate thing to do is stand at attention.
I don't agree with the good senator. While the salute is regarded as a symbol of respect, it should be left for those currently in uniform. There are better things the senator could be doing with his time. Namely ensuring our Vets are properly taken care of...
Fun knowldge: The history of the Salute dates back to the Renaissance period when knights used to raise the face shield of their armor when addressing a competitor.
Regards,
LDO
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Jim
With all due respect, sir, you are making a statement of opinion rather than authority.
The legal code is the authority and I'm troubled by the concept of a senior member of the military that might not know the difference between that and his personal opinion.
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Galen
LOL
I was rather scratching my head over that too :)
An LDO and a Senior Officer are entirely two different things.
LDOs by the nature of their commission could never even become a senior officer.
At least that is my understanding, being a lowly E-6 of 20+ years active duty.
ET1(SS) USN (retired) Galen Young
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waysider
Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that maybe the LDO part of the poster's handle are just his initials and not a statement of rank.
Just tryin' to give the benefit of a doubt here.
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Galen
That could well have been my mistake.
Being a servicemember of the US Navy, the phrase LDO is a very common phrase and designates a small section of lower ranking commissioned officers. So when I read 'LDO USN' I just assumed as much.
For years, I have commonly signed things ET1(SS), since that was my title among fellow servicemembers. And I have spent a lot of time being called 'ET1'.
Likewise I have known men who were commonly called: "LDO", generally not on subs though, mostly on target ships [you know the ones that float up on the surface and make lots of noise in the water as they stir it up].
:)
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LDO USN
Wow, I didn't think that I'd have to do this but here goes:
I am Senior Chief (E-8) currenly stationed in Washington D. C. Most would consider this to be senior as this is the second to the hightest rank in the Enlisted force. My handle (LDO USN) does in fact refer to "Limited Duty Officer", as I was selected for this Commission right around the time I registered here on GSC a few year ago. However, I was also selected and promoted to Chief the same year and I opted to remain enlisted as being a Navy Chief had always been my goal. I just never went back and changed the handle. I will eventually reapply for the commission.
I never refered to myself as a "senior officer" as Galen says; rather a senior member. However, to refer to an LDO as not senior really is incorrect. Only those enlisted members E7 eligible and up are allowed to apply for this commission. Yes, once commissioned they are considered a Junior Officer, but that is ONLY in rank. They are the technical experts and far from junior in they eyes of the Chain of Command.
I'm sure that the many Limited Duty Officer (LDO) members who are Luitenant Commander (O-4), Commander (O-5) and
Captain (O-6), would greatly disagree with you, Galen. (...and you would NEVER call an LDO, "LDO". You address them by their rank or sir or ma'am) Your misinformation is suprising as you were "a lowly E6 with 20+ years active duty".
Now, regarding the Hand Salute and Jim's comments:
The rules that govern active duty Navy members, called Navy Regulations, specifically Paragraph 1207.3 states: "...Service members not in uniform are to stand at attention."
U.S. Flag Code Title 4, Chapter 1, Sec. 4 (which the senator is trying to change) states "Military members in uniform are to stand at attention and render a hand salute. Veterans, Civlilans and others are to stand at attention and place their right hand over their heart."
I could have been more specific in what I disagree with. The idea of an Active duty Sailor rendering a hand salute while in uniform is bothersome (my opinion) and against regulation (the Navy's opinion). I am not necessarily against Veterans saluting, but it seems to me that they should follow the regulations that current active duty members follow. However, I believe that the Senator should be focusing on the lack of medical care, VA benefits and other like things rather than working on their right to salute. The VA has much more important troubles worth his effort.
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LDO USN
Galen,
One more thing. Please tell me you shave your beard when donning your Dess uniform in parades... Although, looking at the length of it, probably not.
Regards,
Senior Chief
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Galen
:)
We have very few LDOs on subs. My understanidng was that the target fleet had set limits on how high an LDO can advance in rank.
As to beards, I have wore a beard for the majority of my active duty career. [1976 to 1983, and 1987 to 2001]
During both of my shore duty tours working Law Enforcement, I shaved. However once back onboard subs, obviously I wore a beard as has been the norm on subs.
I retired wearing a beard. Wonderful photos of my ceremony.
Yes I do wear a beard today. It is currently longer than Navy regs actually calls for, and I do wear it when I am in dress unifrom. Just as I did while I was still serving on active duty. Granted when I was on active duty, I maintained it to the proscribed length. :)
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Galen
One question for you Senior, what about the MCPON? Isn't there one enlisted rank or position above a regular Master chief?
:)
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LDO USN
The MCPON is an appointment, not a promotion. He is in fact an E9.
Regards,
Senior
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Galen
I have never served in a Division or Department on any sub, that had a LDO in it. The only LDOs onboard that I recall were the Supply Officers, and they insisted on being called 'Chop'. To call them by their rank, was only done when they were bieng 'dressed down', or being chewed out by a line officer.
I have served at two Navy Base Police Departments that each had an LDO serving in the position as 'Base Security Officer', they were commonly called 'Security Officer' or 'LDO' [rather than 'JG', or 'LT'].
'sir' implies that you dont know their proper title, or that you are upset with them and refusing to use their proper title.
I agree.
:)
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coolchef
ldo usn is my son
hi j
greasespotters take every thing he has to say to the bank he is a sharp young man.
i am so proud of him
love ya kid!! call soon ok?
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LDO USN
Galen,
There was a time when LDOs were limited in rank to LCDR (O4). That changed in the late 1990s or early 2000s. I don't recall when. There are now many O6/CAPT LDOs. In the past few years regulations have changed and there are now many Commanding Officers who are LDOs. They can't command a vessel, but squadrons, bases and reserve centers are full of them
Commissioned Officers, Line or "Mustang" (wheather LDO or Warrant (a whole different topic)) have no difference in entitlements. However, an LDO Ensign who was previously a Chief would certainly be the expert to turn to as apposed to the 22 year old college graduate of equal rank.
BTW: Thanks for your service. Still don't agree with the beard... I'll never understand you Bubbleheads. :)
R/
Senior
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Galen
Thank you, I did not know that such had changed. I suppose that time does march on.
I stand corrected.
I was not aware that LDOs could go beyond LCDR.
Thank you for your service as well.
May God bless you and keep you. :)
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Rocky
Well, Senior, you forget one very important thing. You forget that WE really don't care what rank you hold or how you got there.
And while your insight as a member of the Navy is useful, it doesn't necessarily translate to civilian life at this point.
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