It makes me sad too.....To overcome this blindness it takes the same deliberate act of the will that succumbed to the blindness....Vision begins to restore as one looks at all things TWI - OUTSIDE the context of TWI.
Our Father in heaven, may your Name be honored here. May the cult that gives Christianity a bad name be exposed for the hypocrites that they are.
May your kingdom be my priority now. Please give me a wake-up call if I ever let some two-bit outfit run my life again.
May your moral will be done, I intend to love my neighbor as myself. Help me to be a true friend to those who have been hurt. Now that I’ve come to my senses - I will never again support a self-serving organization that has no qualms ravaging innocent sheep. May their evil will be undone!
Please give me the strength and opportunity to work and provide basic things for my family. I am ashamed of how I used to think of you as my Sugar Daddy, dropping off my “want list” and gave no thought to my relationship with you.
Forgive me for unknowingly supporting predators. I will never do that again! And I will forgive those who criticize me – even though they may still be in that cult and unknowingly serve wolves. Give me the courage and strength to speak up for your righteousness, and grant me patience and love to encourage cult-sympathizers to think.
Please don’t ever let me get tricked again by false teachers – I love freedom too much and that would just kill me. Help me to discern the real issues in the heat of a battle. I thank you for delivering me from such an evil group. I am blown away every time I think of how you orchestrated their meltdown in 86. That was just as miraculous as the Exodus of old!
I want to talk about feelings. In twi I learned my feelings had no value. I had retemory cards for anger, fear, and other emotions I can’t remember. These feelings weren’t regarded as proper (or in fact sin) and were supposed to go away by repeating these verses often enough. It was a form of denial, and as I exercised this denial I gave away a big part of myself and lost some of my individuality. I disconnected from my feelings because I didn’t see them as trustworthy.
Reality is feelings are important. If I touch a hot object, my finger hurts and alerts me I am getting burnt. It helps me to avoid further harm. Feelings have a similar function. The emotion of guilt (conscience) alerts me I may be hurting others or myself. The emotion of anger or pain alerts me something is amiss I need to look at, often before it registers in my reason. It is an internal “ouch.”
I can examine those feelings and learn from them. I can use reason and conscience to make decisions that don’t hurt my self esteem, such as lashing out. In doing this, I accept responsibility for my own feelings and take care of myself. I am not requiring someone else fix it or blaming others for my feelings.
Since twi, I’ve learned my feelings are just as important as anyone else’s. I don’t have to cater to someone else’s anger. I expect others to deal with their own anger feelings toward me.
In this light, I recognize a lot of error in twi. I don’t blame any feelings I have about it on twi. I look at them to rediscover my true self, my true value, and any other unfinished business I may have within. As I recognize my feelings, understand and absorb the twi experience on me personally, I empower myself to move on to a richer and better life.
It doesn’t matter to me how long this journey taken, how many mistakes I made (or continue to make). It only matters to me that I do it.
Just my thoughts and opinions on this subject.
P. S. I wonder how much abuse occurred in twi purely on the basis of “There is therefore no condemnation.” We weren’t supposed to feel guilt or condemnation (emotional). Doing that ignores and disconnects conscience…Guess what? I just looked this up. The word for condemnation has nothing to do with emotion, but judicial sentence, or judgment in relationship to the law of sin and death. Is my memory right? Wasn’t this taught as if it were an emotion? As in, we shouldn’t condemn ourselves but recognize our freedom in Christ? If so, then freedom in Christ was equal to freedom from conscience, and skips recognition and repentance of sin (if sin is present) or any “ouch” signal to look at.
As I recall, “Release From Your Prisons” was based on Jesus setting us free and a formula, how you mentally picture yourself. In essence, we were to mentally will ourselves out of our feelings, not address them or identify causes. From that, emotions that go for a period of time is defined as a prison. I disagree with that completely.
Jhn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
These verses are not saying to observe a formula, it is really making the point that it isn’t just knowing the truth that sets a person free, but the performing of it. If memory serves, vp skipped that part and focused on mental gymnastics instead.
From T-bone’s initial post on “Twi’s Sedative to the Conscience.”
I've been reviewing a few threads lately and usually the same thought crosses my mind at some point while reading – how much my conscience was anesthetized while in TWI. Sometimes that thought leads me into analyzing the delivery system and the drug that quiets this inner voice. The delivery system is their modeling of "Christian living" by TWI leadership and the sedative to the still small voice is of course TWI's interpretation of the Bible….
The following is from The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur, page 36:
"In 1984 an Avianca Airlines jet crashed in Spain. Investigators studying the accident made an eerie discovery. The black box cockpit recorders revealed that several minutes before impact a shrill, computer-synthesized voice from the plane's automatic warning system told the crew repeatedly in English, "Pull up! Pull up!"
The pilot, evidently thinking the system was malfunctioning snapped, "Shut up, Gringo!" and switched off the system. Minutes later the plane plowed into the side of a mountain. Everyone on board died.
When I saw the tragic story on the news shortly after it happened, it struck me as a perfect parable of the way modern people treat the warning messages of their consciences."—T-bone.
I don’t remember us talking about specific doctrines that led to this. I remember talking more about defining conscience. (I don’t want to take the time right now to read the entire thread.) Either way, most assuredly, the doctrines encouraged sedating conscience. These are doctrines coming from someone who did not reflect much conscience his life, and who had a willingness to commit all manner of abuse without any apparent (to me) remorse. The question was asked earlier how vp could do what he did. Evidently, his belief system was worked around making it ok, even Scripturally. Then he presented it to us as knowledge not known since the first century. I’m pretty sure they knew what sin was in the first century. What he taught us was his own feel good rationalization. How to sin and not feel bad about it. How to avoid accepting responsibility for your thoughts, feelings and actions by playing with your own head. How to accept that kind of behavior from others…(obey your leadership and submit), and if you have a problem with it, play with your own head to cope with it. A big part of this system was called “dealing with the adversary.” So if you have guilt and condemnation, resist the adversary and he will flee. The emotions of conscience was identified as coming from the devil and not thinking according to “the Word.”
As to why we put up with spiritual abuse so long, it was because our belief system taught us to ignore all warning signals until we could no longer hear them, and when we did, we thought they came from the adversary.
You`re welcome shifra, as have your posts and those of the participants on this thread been to me. Thank you all for contributing enough of the pieces of the puzzle for me to finally get a glimpse of the over all picture.
I think this thread was the final piece of the puzzle....I get it...I understand now that you guys have put into words that communicate why things felt so wrong.....
Thank you all. That seems so little to say for what has been recognised and finally understood....the freedom for me. I can finally say without reservation...I GET it!!
I posted this on the abortion thread....but it mirrors my feelings hear as well.
How many have been sacrificed indeed sad.gif
All in the name of God.
I keep wondering how God felt when We brokenly complied with something that we believed so wrong...submitted ourselves to the most brutal of treatment...required to turn our backs on our fallen brethren....turned out family members in need...even throwing children to the streets...
How did God feel watching us suffer because HIS name was invoked??
Do you think he was applauding? Do you think that he even cared?? Was he there crying with us at the betrayal?
I wonder if God grieved with us as we brokenly complied with what was demanded in his name?
I remember speaking in tongues like crazy and running scriptures through my mind frantically to shut up the voice that was screaming inside while I forced myself to do that which was required.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 [such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
Psa 139:9 [if] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
God will deal with all injustice done to us. Anything we know we did wrong we repent of and ask forgiveness for. And forgive ourselves. We just give it to Him and keep going. That is trusting God. IMO.
The pain of twi we can look at, understand how it happened, absorb and finally accept that it did (we don’t ever have to like it), own our own participation, so we can move on and not repeat the past. At our own pace, not someone else’s. IMO.
Rascal: A conscience that can recognize and abhor evil is a good one, I think. I wasn’t in the wc. I didn’t personally experience some of the things you describe. I still understand the level of pain of it though. In any case, good for you that you thought it was terrible.
You’re right about the betrayal. It was betrayal to teach us things that resulted in hurt in our lives and require us to do it.
Another Spot, bringing up TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread gets me thinking about how it empowered the spiritual abuser and left the spiritually abused defenseless. vpw's personalized twist of "renewing the mind" was egocentric – based upon what pleased him! Similar to his interpretation of the two great commandments – as long as you love God and neighbor you could do as you full well pleased. It's a love not based on moral standards but on one's own idea of what love is.Combine that with the erroneous assumption that you could "renew" your mind to something and it wouldn't "bother" you anymore – and you have a potent recipe for a sedative to the conscience. That is contrary to the process found in Romans 12 – where it shows that real transformation by the renewed mind is preceded by offering ourselves to God as a living sacrifice.
Romans 12:1, 2 NIV
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
How do I offer my body to Him as a living sacrifice? I'm thinking it revolves around what I do with my body – in other words, my actions…my behavior! I tend to think things like the Golden Rule [do unto others as you would have them do unto you – which is another way of saying "love your neighbor as yourself"] would qualify as " holy and well pleasing to God" and would be a "spiritual act of worship.".....Interesting you mentioned how TWI taught people to ignore feelings. We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
~~
vpw misapplied the law of liberty on non-moral issues covered in Romans 14. A famous saying of his was something along the lines of, "what I may allow in my life you wouldn't allow in yours and visa versa." That could cover a lot of ground – when you don't put it in the context of moral or non-moral issues. When this idea dominates a group of folks it becomes a green light for predators to have a field day – and wreaks havoc on the faith of their victims who think they're not spiritual enough to handle it. It's training someone to violate their own conscience – " just renew your mind, baby!"
Romans 14:1-8, 13-23 NIV
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Did you notice a key phrase in the opening verse – "disputable matters." Is adultery a disputable matter? Is stealing a disputable matter? Is there any question as to whether adultery or stealing is wrong, a sin? Of course not! But what was a matter of opinion? The importance and relevance of Old Testament dietary restrictions and ceremonial laws that were no longer in effect – in other words…non-moral issues.
Another Spot, bringing up TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread gets me thinking about how it empowered the spiritual abuser and left the spiritually abused defenseless.
That’s right. Once the relevance of sin is taken out of the picture, there is nothing to go to. You can’t say, ahem, adultery is wrong…you can’t say screaming at me is wrong…you can’t say treating me as valueless is wrong. You can’t say what is important to me has no value is wrong. To top it all off, sin was defined as “missing the mark.” I have books that say that, but the fact remains, sin is wrong. Add to that no degree of sin….you can’t even say something is WRONG. Furthermore, you are supposed to obey and submit. Even if you were to stand up for yourself, there is nothing to fall back on, and the nature of the teaching eliminated even the thought of it. Any emotional difficulty on either part is dealt with nicely just by identifying those emotions as a front of the adversary (yourself) and here’s your retemory. Feelings are further identified as something that come and go, but the truth abides forever. So they aren’t trustworthy anyway. The result is one’s own natural defense systems are broken down that would normally kick in even with no Scriptural knowledge at all.
vpw's personalized twist of "renewing the mind" was egocentric – based upon what pleased him! Similar to his interpretation of the two great commandments – as long as you love God and neighbor [according to YOUR standard of loving God and neighbor] you could do as you full well pleased.
That idea still bothers me. In general, it is like lawlessness.
Combine that with the erroneous assumption that you could "renew" your mind to something and it wouldn't "bother" you anymore – and you have a potent recipe for a sedative to the conscience.
You’re right.
That is contrary to the process found in Romans 12 – where it shows that real transformation by the renewed mind is preceded by offering ourselves to God as a living sacrifice.
vpw misapplied the law of liberty on non-moral issues covered in Romans 14. A famous saying of his was something along the lines of, "what I may allow in my life you wouldn't allow in yours and visa versa." That could cover a lot of ground – when you don't put it in the context of moral or non-moral issues. When this idea dominates a group of folks it becomes a green light for predators to have a field day – and wreaks havoc on the faith of their victims who think they're not spiritual enough to handle it. It's training someone to violate their own conscience – " just renew your mind, baby!"
Absolutely. The end result is a feel good theology (rationalization imo) that favors the abuser. The abused tries to feel good with it but can’t. The shoe just never fits, thus begins never ending effort to try and feel comfortable and OK.
An interesting twist to the thing: during lcm’s reign of m&a, folks were being accused of things, told to correct their error, etc. However, I remember when I was in this situation I was so totally, completely confused as to what to do. Dumbfounded really. The guidance was the section on godly sorrow. Ok fine. I’m sorry. Now what??? How in the world am I supposed to prove I have it? I had zero understanding of sin, or what to do about it. Not to mention there was no Scriptural back up to define I had done something wrong for me to go to. I was accused of being at fault for my husband’s actions. Sorry, I can’t do a thing with that. I couldn’t find one single verse that dealt with that subject. After awhile, I decided no can do this one. I’ve gone as far as I can go. I cannot go any further. After this, I started to wake up. And thank goodness for Waydale, because I discovered it about this time.
So here we have a very complicated theology that does not in any form or fashion handle even basic understanding of right and wrong.
T-bone, truly outstanding post. Your first post on your thread on conscience has never left my mind for long. At the time, I hadn’t progressed in my thought process on twi to understand the real impact of it. I did understand it was pivotal, the key to the mystery so to speak. It has taken me all this time to even start seeing how it all fit together, but for me it was the first thing I really needed to think about in terms of being able to look at the picture as whole, or myself in particular. Again I am going to tell you, I hope you know how really important that was to me personally. It was important to me in regaining a sense of internal balance and going back to fundamentals. If your foundation is muzzy, how can you build anything solid on it?
Interesting you mentioned how TWI taught people to ignore feelings. We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
Did you notice a key phrase in the opening verse – "disputable matters." Is adultery a disputable matter? Is stealing a disputable matter? Is there any question as to whether adultery or stealing is wrong, a sin? Of course not! But what was a matter of opinion? The importance and relevance of Old Testament dietary restrictions and ceremonial laws that were no longer in effect – in other words…non-moral issues.
Great points T-Bone!
It is interesting that we were taught to ignore our feelings. I saw lots of "spiritual anger" and "blessed" folks but any emotion in between or any emotion that even remotely looked like you were having an independant thought was squashed like a cockroach.
Funny how many times I heard that section of verse used to justify someones reprehensible actions and never saw those two words. It didn't stop me from tell the offending individual that they were without a doubt completely out of their mind and no amount of tortured scripture was going to redeem them.
You have all given me food for thought. Thank you.
We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
Yes. So we couldn't even hear God…. He might be yelling and screaming through the crap in our heads, but we were taught to use our brains and not anything else. Disregard it all except the intellectual logic of twi. And the whole time we thought God was working in us constantly. Or wanted to think so. Back to taking the Lord's name in vain thing.
We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
Yes. So we couldn't even hear God…. He might be yelling and screaming through the crap in our heads, but we were taught to use our brains and not anything else. Disregard it all except the intellectual logic of twi. And the whole time we thought God was working in us constantly. Or wanted to think so. Back to taking the Lord's name in vain thing.
Just popped my head in here and I saw this post. I said something to this effect when I discussed how TWI taught us to take a Left-brain approach to revelation. It's on a podcast somewhere...
Just popped my head in here and I saw this post. I said something to this effect when I discussed how TWI taught us to take a Left-brain approach to revelation. It's on a podcast somewhere...
Wow! Either great minds think alike or crazy people all drink the same water or something like that.... :blink:
I was thinking this morning on similar stuff dontcha know. In fact I think I said something about left brain thinking being all formulas and such to ASpot (I think) in a PM when we were talking about emotions. Wierd how all this stuff is starting to straighten out the cobwebs in the "Attic of my Mind". Ya'll remember that song? Just came to my thoughts. Seems like we are having to rearrange that attic yet again doesn't it?
Staff Meeting at The Way International Headquarters on 04/14/1996
L. Craig Martindale
“About emotions and not letting them run you: We don't mean that it's wrong to have emotions. We mean that what becomes wrong is to allow that emotion to become a state of mind and then that state of mind colors and valances and sets the values to all your decisions. Then you're wrong. And that's so often what happens to people that become adamantly adamant when they're confronted. It shocks them because they've been so stupid. They might become embar- rassed because they're confronted in front of two or three or the Church. And so they take that attitude of shock and embarrassment and then they turn it into anger. And that becomes not just an emotion that they get hit with that they should deal with and get rid of before they make any decisions, but that becomes their mental state. And when an emotion becomes a chronic mental state, you're talking pretty much possession. Because the human mind and body is not made to maintain emotional states. Anger eventually dissipates. Circumstantial hilarity eventually dis- sipates. When an emotion becomes a state of mind, you're in deep doo doo by your own willingness. And they want to hang on to their hurt, anger, embarrassment as a state of mind--you got to have help to maintain that intensity, and that's spirit.
I cannot be in a high state of emotional upheaval and be able to think in depth. You can't do that. That's why you got to get on stuff when it comes up so it doesn't fester to some soap opera emotional-type state. You have to get over negative emotions quickly. You got to use the positive emotions to think soundly. Remember Peter's emotional state of happiness almost led him to baptizing those people. But "then I remembered the words of the Lord Jesus," remember? Emotions always should be fleeting. Sometimes you'd like for them to last. If you're angry for a good reason, it feels good; happy, etc. Emotions are fleeting. Can't be in a state of emotional upheaval constantly or chronically, or you cannot think the Word, make sound spiritual decisions.
You have to maintain a spiritual equilibrium, mental sobriety, and you can't live in a state of emotional upheaval. People try to live that way and they get contaminated. You can't do it at any level. Whether it's a positive or negative emotional state. You have to have the Word of God in your mind, which requires in-depth thinking. You cannot think in depth when you're in an agitated emotional state.”
____________________
I read this several times. The first thing I noticed, these confrontation sessions (which typically were screaming sessions) were not to produce anger in the recipient. Anger is a very normal response to verbal abuse. If that was the response, lcm defines it something that is willfully done (not) and an improper response. Taken all together, he is defining emotions at two extremes where it is either fleeting or mental state (possession). Those are the only two choices. We were supposed to be almost emotionless or we couldn’t think “the Word.”
I remember being taught this. The end result of course, was to deal out the abuse without feeling much of anything and take it without feeling much of anything. At least that’s how he thought it should work…if not, well you’re possessed. At the same time, it ruled the emotions of conscience.
Grrrrrrrrr….there's a lot of hellfire-power in lcm's words…Just like the unrealistic "positive thinking" crap they pushed – we're also told to have "positive emotions"…..yeah, dream on in happy Way World...
Regarding emotions, I read something interesting in a book - The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousnessby Antonio Damasio. I read it a few years ago – so I'm a little fuzzy on the details…but anyway…the book talks about something doctors noticed in patients that had trauma to the portion of the brain that handles emotions. They found it was extremely difficult for these patients to make rational decisions….
The way I take it – we were DESIGNED to USE our emotions in the decision-making process….It's part of our make up….what makes us human…it's dumb to think we can turn off portions of our brain like it's a machine with fully articulated control switches….What'll they think of next "you can't go beyond what you're taught"?.....oh wait, vpw already came up with that. That's where you turn off the switches to Critical Thinking and Creative Thinking…..alright, just forget this whole post. It's based on negative emotions. I wrote it out of anger over lcm's words. [but then again – I could replace my opening "Grrrrrrrrr" with the smiley face emoticon :) and I bet this post could sneak by TWI's thought-police] [note to self: from now on preface any criticisms of TWI with a smiley face :) ]
[***Test, test, this is only a test***trying out new criticism technique: :) "What really gets me so fired-up angry is thinking about the twofold destruction wrought by these predators – ravaging people in the name of Christianity."]
I remember being taught this. The end result of course, was to deal out the abuse without feeling much of anything and take it without feeling much of anything. At least that’s how he thought it should work…if not, well you’re possessed. At the same time, it ruled the emotions of conscience.
Hence it ruled out emotions that would make you feel guilty or remorseful and in turn would allow you to bear no responsibility for your actions. It is obvious that twi was good at teaching this concept. I always heard it as "We live in grace, not the law". So it was ok to just do whatever you wanted to do because God would forgive us our sins.
This implies several things on the part of the "sinner". The first of which is that he / she knew before hand that what they were doing or going to do was a sin.
Romans 6:1 & 2:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Christ died so that we could be free of sin. We have Christ in us to fight the inherent sin nature of man. It is an incredible insult to God and Jesus Christ when we who are "dead" to sin make a conscious choice to sin and then have the huevos to ask God to forgive us for it! To receive God's forgiveness for sin one must be repentant. Do not mock God! That's what the scripture tells us. I cannot subscribe to the school of thought that absolves a habitual sinner from just consequences simply because he "invoked" God's grace.
In my mind it takes incredible arrogance to believe that God Almighty would be at your beck and call like some trollop or tail kissing fool. The unmitigated gaul and pride that it takes to expect God to forgive a premeditated sin that one intends to commit again! The common saying, "Better to ask forgiveness than ask permission" should never be applied to God as if He were some camp follower that can be summoned like a personal fix-it slave.
Yet that was the attitude of many in twi. The concept of personal responsibilty never entered their minds. God forbid one should ever feel genuine remorse for consciously sinning against their God. We wouldn't want to dwell upon a negative now would we? That would be a certain road to possession...what a bunch of hoowie!
The more I look at it the more I see how most of the major teachings in twi were designed to further entrench a person into the abuse. They would heap false and skewed doctrines upon us that would cause the listener to switch off the gut emotions that could protect us, doctrines that would fill us with a false sense of superiority, doctrines that seperated us from Christ, doctrines that made us rulers over God's will, doctrines that made hurting our fellow brothers and sisters in deplorable ways and doctrines that absolved us of the consequences for our sins. All of them designed to keep us chained to their legs and feeding the coffers. All of them abusive. But they built upon each other in such a subtle way that most of us didnt see it until much later.
I forgot in my post to say this was excerpts from a GS document.
To tell you the truth, I was quite hesitant to post it. However, I think it is really important to understand the problem with twi is much bigger than doctrinal error. It didn’t just mess us up in our relationships with God and each other from a Biblical point of view. It isn’t enough to simply say it was abusive.
The organization in its teaching literally stripped away our basic humanity, conscience, feelings, all the God-given things that we were born with. Normal defense mechanisms gone. And yes, Eyes, no personal responsibility. And this coming from a psych. major…
Going back to an earlier post of mine. It really is important in recovery from twi to reconsider emotion and conscience. I also think it is very important to reconsider personal responsibility in light of this. It isn’t just a matter of separating out doctrinal/practical error.
And yes, this is lcm. But just consider who taught him. Even in vpw days emotions/feelings had no respect. Some emotions were assigned devil spirits (spirit of depression and fear spring to mind). Feelings come and go, it’s the truth that abides, as I posted earlier. Here’s your retemory. Drive your natural defense mechanisms and conscience out of your mind…Fear was always wrong. Guilt and condemnation are wrong (conscience). Sometimes fear is a very good and healthy warning sign. All the things that told us “don’t touch that stove, it’s hot,” were worked out of us. Not only to ourselves, but our dealings with others.
Even without critical thinking skills in play, the very things that would have warned us, such as emotion and conscience, were driven out.
Now ask me again, why did we stay so long…there was no gun to your head. Yes there was. It was a spiritual gun. And the bullets were: do it or get possessed. You will be a grease spot by midnight. God won’t spit in your direction.
All the time teaching the truth will set you free. How much freedom was in twi? Virtually none. The more than abundant life? I think we lost our most precious possessions. Ourselves, tops the list.
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T-Bone
It makes me sad too.....To overcome this blindness it takes the same deliberate act of the will that succumbed to the blindness....Vision begins to restore as one looks at all things TWI - OUTSIDE the context of TWI.
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T-Bone
Our Father in heaven, may your Name be honored here. May the cult that gives Christianity a bad name be exposed for the hypocrites that they are.
May your kingdom be my priority now. Please give me a wake-up call if I ever let some two-bit outfit run my life again.
May your moral will be done, I intend to love my neighbor as myself. Help me to be a true friend to those who have been hurt. Now that I’ve come to my senses - I will never again support a self-serving organization that has no qualms ravaging innocent sheep. May their evil will be undone!
Please give me the strength and opportunity to work and provide basic things for my family. I am ashamed of how I used to think of you as my Sugar Daddy, dropping off my “want list” and gave no thought to my relationship with you.
Forgive me for unknowingly supporting predators. I will never do that again! And I will forgive those who criticize me – even though they may still be in that cult and unknowingly serve wolves. Give me the courage and strength to speak up for your righteousness, and grant me patience and love to encourage cult-sympathizers to think.
Please don’t ever let me get tricked again by false teachers – I love freedom too much and that would just kill me. Help me to discern the real issues in the heat of a battle. I thank you for delivering me from such an evil group. I am blown away every time I think of how you orchestrated their meltdown in 86. That was just as miraculous as the Exodus of old!
A-okay!
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another spot
I want to talk about feelings. In twi I learned my feelings had no value. I had retemory cards for anger, fear, and other emotions I can’t remember. These feelings weren’t regarded as proper (or in fact sin) and were supposed to go away by repeating these verses often enough. It was a form of denial, and as I exercised this denial I gave away a big part of myself and lost some of my individuality. I disconnected from my feelings because I didn’t see them as trustworthy.
Reality is feelings are important. If I touch a hot object, my finger hurts and alerts me I am getting burnt. It helps me to avoid further harm. Feelings have a similar function. The emotion of guilt (conscience) alerts me I may be hurting others or myself. The emotion of anger or pain alerts me something is amiss I need to look at, often before it registers in my reason. It is an internal “ouch.”
I can examine those feelings and learn from them. I can use reason and conscience to make decisions that don’t hurt my self esteem, such as lashing out. In doing this, I accept responsibility for my own feelings and take care of myself. I am not requiring someone else fix it or blaming others for my feelings.
Since twi, I’ve learned my feelings are just as important as anyone else’s. I don’t have to cater to someone else’s anger. I expect others to deal with their own anger feelings toward me.
In this light, I recognize a lot of error in twi. I don’t blame any feelings I have about it on twi. I look at them to rediscover my true self, my true value, and any other unfinished business I may have within. As I recognize my feelings, understand and absorb the twi experience on me personally, I empower myself to move on to a richer and better life.
It doesn’t matter to me how long this journey taken, how many mistakes I made (or continue to make). It only matters to me that I do it.
Just my thoughts and opinions on this subject.
P. S. I wonder how much abuse occurred in twi purely on the basis of “There is therefore no condemnation.” We weren’t supposed to feel guilt or condemnation (emotional). Doing that ignores and disconnects conscience…Guess what? I just looked this up. The word for condemnation has nothing to do with emotion, but judicial sentence, or judgment in relationship to the law of sin and death. Is my memory right? Wasn’t this taught as if it were an emotion? As in, we shouldn’t condemn ourselves but recognize our freedom in Christ? If so, then freedom in Christ was equal to freedom from conscience, and skips recognition and repentance of sin (if sin is present) or any “ouch” signal to look at.
As I recall, “Release From Your Prisons” was based on Jesus setting us free and a formula, how you mentally picture yourself. In essence, we were to mentally will ourselves out of our feelings, not address them or identify causes. From that, emotions that go for a period of time is defined as a prison. I disagree with that completely.
Jhn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
These verses are not saying to observe a formula, it is really making the point that it isn’t just knowing the truth that sets a person free, but the performing of it. If memory serves, vp skipped that part and focused on mental gymnastics instead.
From T-bone’s initial post on “Twi’s Sedative to the Conscience.”
I've been reviewing a few threads lately and usually the same thought crosses my mind at some point while reading – how much my conscience was anesthetized while in TWI. Sometimes that thought leads me into analyzing the delivery system and the drug that quiets this inner voice. The delivery system is their modeling of "Christian living" by TWI leadership and the sedative to the still small voice is of course TWI's interpretation of the Bible….
The following is from The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur, page 36:
"In 1984 an Avianca Airlines jet crashed in Spain. Investigators studying the accident made an eerie discovery. The black box cockpit recorders revealed that several minutes before impact a shrill, computer-synthesized voice from the plane's automatic warning system told the crew repeatedly in English, "Pull up! Pull up!"
The pilot, evidently thinking the system was malfunctioning snapped, "Shut up, Gringo!" and switched off the system. Minutes later the plane plowed into the side of a mountain. Everyone on board died.
When I saw the tragic story on the news shortly after it happened, it struck me as a perfect parable of the way modern people treat the warning messages of their consciences."—T-bone.
I don’t remember us talking about specific doctrines that led to this. I remember talking more about defining conscience. (I don’t want to take the time right now to read the entire thread.) Either way, most assuredly, the doctrines encouraged sedating conscience. These are doctrines coming from someone who did not reflect much conscience his life, and who had a willingness to commit all manner of abuse without any apparent (to me) remorse. The question was asked earlier how vp could do what he did. Evidently, his belief system was worked around making it ok, even Scripturally. Then he presented it to us as knowledge not known since the first century. I’m pretty sure they knew what sin was in the first century. What he taught us was his own feel good rationalization. How to sin and not feel bad about it. How to avoid accepting responsibility for your thoughts, feelings and actions by playing with your own head. How to accept that kind of behavior from others…(obey your leadership and submit), and if you have a problem with it, play with your own head to cope with it. A big part of this system was called “dealing with the adversary.” So if you have guilt and condemnation, resist the adversary and he will flee. The emotions of conscience was identified as coming from the devil and not thinking according to “the Word.”
As to why we put up with spiritual abuse so long, it was because our belief system taught us to ignore all warning signals until we could no longer hear them, and when we did, we thought they came from the adversary.
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rascal
Amen Tbone....sigh
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rascal
You`re welcome shifra, as have your posts and those of the participants on this thread been to me. Thank you all for contributing enough of the pieces of the puzzle for me to finally get a glimpse of the over all picture.
I think this thread was the final piece of the puzzle....I get it...I understand now that you guys have put into words that communicate why things felt so wrong.....
Thank you all. That seems so little to say for what has been recognised and finally understood....the freedom for me. I can finally say without reservation...I GET it!!
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rascal
I posted this on the abortion thread....but it mirrors my feelings hear as well.
How many have been sacrificed indeed sad.gif
All in the name of God.
I keep wondering how God felt when We brokenly complied with something that we believed so wrong...submitted ourselves to the most brutal of treatment...required to turn our backs on our fallen brethren....turned out family members in need...even throwing children to the streets...
How did God feel watching us suffer because HIS name was invoked??
Do you think he was applauding? Do you think that he even cared?? Was he there crying with us at the betrayal?
I wonder if God grieved with us as we brokenly complied with what was demanded in his name?
I remember speaking in tongues like crazy and running scriptures through my mind frantically to shut up the voice that was screaming inside while I forced myself to do that which was required.
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another spot
I’m sure He grieved with us.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 [such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
Psa 139:9 [if] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
God will deal with all injustice done to us. Anything we know we did wrong we repent of and ask forgiveness for. And forgive ourselves. We just give it to Him and keep going. That is trusting God. IMO.
The pain of twi we can look at, understand how it happened, absorb and finally accept that it did (we don’t ever have to like it), own our own participation, so we can move on and not repeat the past. At our own pace, not someone else’s. IMO.
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another spot
Rascal: A conscience that can recognize and abhor evil is a good one, I think. I wasn’t in the wc. I didn’t personally experience some of the things you describe. I still understand the level of pain of it though. In any case, good for you that you thought it was terrible.
You’re right about the betrayal. It was betrayal to teach us things that resulted in hurt in our lives and require us to do it.
I’m still thinking about your post…
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T-Bone
Another Spot, bringing up TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread gets me thinking about how it empowered the spiritual abuser and left the spiritually abused defenseless. vpw's personalized twist of "renewing the mind" was egocentric – based upon what pleased him! Similar to his interpretation of the two great commandments – as long as you love God and neighbor you could do as you full well pleased. It's a love not based on moral standards but on one's own idea of what love is.Combine that with the erroneous assumption that you could "renew" your mind to something and it wouldn't "bother" you anymore – and you have a potent recipe for a sedative to the conscience. That is contrary to the process found in Romans 12 – where it shows that real transformation by the renewed mind is preceded by offering ourselves to God as a living sacrifice.
Romans 12:1, 2 NIV
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
How do I offer my body to Him as a living sacrifice? I'm thinking it revolves around what I do with my body – in other words, my actions…my behavior! I tend to think things like the Golden Rule [do unto others as you would have them do unto you – which is another way of saying "love your neighbor as yourself"] would qualify as " holy and well pleasing to God" and would be a "spiritual act of worship .".....Interesting you mentioned how TWI taught people to ignore feelings. We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
~~
vpw misapplied the law of liberty on non-moral issues covered in Romans 14. A famous saying of his was something along the lines of, "what I may allow in my life you wouldn't allow in yours and visa versa." That could cover a lot of ground – when you don't put it in the context of moral or non-moral issues. When this idea dominates a group of folks it becomes a green light for predators to have a field day – and wreaks havoc on the faith of their victims who think they're not spiritual enough to handle it. It's training someone to violate their own conscience – " just renew your mind, baby!"
Romans 14:1-8, 13-23 NIV
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Did you notice a key phrase in the opening verse – "disputable matters." Is adultery a disputable matter? Is stealing a disputable matter? Is there any question as to whether adultery or stealing is wrong, a sin? Of course not! But what was a matter of opinion? The importance and relevance of Old Testament dietary restrictions and ceremonial laws that were no longer in effect – in other words…non-moral issues.
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another spot
Another Spot, bringing up TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread gets me thinking about how it empowered the spiritual abuser and left the spiritually abused defenseless.
That’s right. Once the relevance of sin is taken out of the picture, there is nothing to go to. You can’t say, ahem, adultery is wrong…you can’t say screaming at me is wrong…you can’t say treating me as valueless is wrong. You can’t say what is important to me has no value is wrong. To top it all off, sin was defined as “missing the mark.” I have books that say that, but the fact remains, sin is wrong. Add to that no degree of sin….you can’t even say something is WRONG. Furthermore, you are supposed to obey and submit. Even if you were to stand up for yourself, there is nothing to fall back on, and the nature of the teaching eliminated even the thought of it. Any emotional difficulty on either part is dealt with nicely just by identifying those emotions as a front of the adversary (yourself) and here’s your retemory. Feelings are further identified as something that come and go, but the truth abides forever. So they aren’t trustworthy anyway. The result is one’s own natural defense systems are broken down that would normally kick in even with no Scriptural knowledge at all.
vpw's personalized twist of "renewing the mind" was egocentric – based upon what pleased him! Similar to his interpretation of the two great commandments – as long as you love God and neighbor [according to YOUR standard of loving God and neighbor] you could do as you full well pleased.
That idea still bothers me. In general, it is like lawlessness.
Combine that with the erroneous assumption that you could "renew" your mind to something and it wouldn't "bother" you anymore – and you have a potent recipe for a sedative to the conscience.
You’re right.
That is contrary to the process found in Romans 12 – where it shows that real transformation by the renewed mind is preceded by offering ourselves to God as a living sacrifice.
vpw misapplied the law of liberty on non-moral issues covered in Romans 14. A famous saying of his was something along the lines of, "what I may allow in my life you wouldn't allow in yours and visa versa." That could cover a lot of ground – when you don't put it in the context of moral or non-moral issues. When this idea dominates a group of folks it becomes a green light for predators to have a field day – and wreaks havoc on the faith of their victims who think they're not spiritual enough to handle it. It's training someone to violate their own conscience – " just renew your mind, baby!"
Absolutely. The end result is a feel good theology (rationalization imo) that favors the abuser. The abused tries to feel good with it but can’t. The shoe just never fits, thus begins never ending effort to try and feel comfortable and OK.
An interesting twist to the thing: during lcm’s reign of m&a, folks were being accused of things, told to correct their error, etc. However, I remember when I was in this situation I was so totally, completely confused as to what to do. Dumbfounded really. The guidance was the section on godly sorrow. Ok fine. I’m sorry. Now what??? How in the world am I supposed to prove I have it? I had zero understanding of sin, or what to do about it. Not to mention there was no Scriptural back up to define I had done something wrong for me to go to. I was accused of being at fault for my husband’s actions. Sorry, I can’t do a thing with that. I couldn’t find one single verse that dealt with that subject. After awhile, I decided no can do this one. I’ve gone as far as I can go. I cannot go any further. After this, I started to wake up. And thank goodness for Waydale, because I discovered it about this time.
So here we have a very complicated theology that does not in any form or fashion handle even basic understanding of right and wrong.
T-bone, truly outstanding post. Your first post on your thread on conscience has never left my mind for long. At the time, I hadn’t progressed in my thought process on twi to understand the real impact of it. I did understand it was pivotal, the key to the mystery so to speak. It has taken me all this time to even start seeing how it all fit together, but for me it was the first thing I really needed to think about in terms of being able to look at the picture as whole, or myself in particular. Again I am going to tell you, I hope you know how really important that was to me personally. It was important to me in regaining a sense of internal balance and going back to fundamentals. If your foundation is muzzy, how can you build anything solid on it?
Thanks so much T-bone!!!
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Eyesopen
Great points T-Bone!
It is interesting that we were taught to ignore our feelings. I saw lots of "spiritual anger" and "blessed" folks but any emotion in between or any emotion that even remotely looked like you were having an independant thought was squashed like a cockroach.
Funny how many times I heard that section of verse used to justify someones reprehensible actions and never saw those two words. It didn't stop me from tell the offending individual that they were without a doubt completely out of their mind and no amount of tortured scripture was going to redeem them.
You have all given me food for thought. Thank you.
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another spot
We often hear people say "I've got a bad feeling about this" or "my gut just tells me this is wrong." "This just doesn't feel right" ......Interesting....
Yes. So we couldn't even hear God…. He might be yelling and screaming through the crap in our heads, but we were taught to use our brains and not anything else. Disregard it all except the intellectual logic of twi. And the whole time we thought God was working in us constantly. Or wanted to think so. Back to taking the Lord's name in vain thing.
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doojable
Just popped my head in here and I saw this post. I said something to this effect when I discussed how TWI taught us to take a Left-brain approach to revelation. It's on a podcast somewhere...
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Eyesopen
Wow! Either great minds think alike or crazy people all drink the same water or something like that.... :blink:
I was thinking this morning on similar stuff dontcha know. In fact I think I said something about left brain thinking being all formulas and such to ASpot (I think) in a PM when we were talking about emotions. Wierd how all this stuff is starting to straighten out the cobwebs in the "Attic of my Mind". Ya'll remember that song? Just came to my thoughts. Seems like we are having to rearrange that attic yet again doesn't it?
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another spot
Staff Meeting at The Way International Headquarters on 04/14/1996
L. Craig Martindale
“About emotions and not letting them run you: We don't mean that it's wrong to have emotions. We mean that what becomes wrong is to allow that emotion to become a state of mind and then that state of mind colors and valances and sets the values to all your decisions. Then you're wrong. And that's so often what happens to people that become adamantly adamant when they're confronted. It shocks them because they've been so stupid. They might become embar- rassed because they're confronted in front of two or three or the Church. And so they take that attitude of shock and embarrassment and then they turn it into anger. And that becomes not just an emotion that they get hit with that they should deal with and get rid of before they make any decisions, but that becomes their mental state. And when an emotion becomes a chronic mental state, you're talking pretty much possession. Because the human mind and body is not made to maintain emotional states. Anger eventually dissipates. Circumstantial hilarity eventually dis- sipates. When an emotion becomes a state of mind, you're in deep doo doo by your own willingness. And they want to hang on to their hurt, anger, embarrassment as a state of mind--you got to have help to maintain that intensity, and that's spirit.
I cannot be in a high state of emotional upheaval and be able to think in depth. You can't do that. That's why you got to get on stuff when it comes up so it doesn't fester to some soap opera emotional-type state. You have to get over negative emotions quickly. You got to use the positive emotions to think soundly. Remember Peter's emotional state of happiness almost led him to baptizing those people. But "then I remembered the words of the Lord Jesus," remember? Emotions always should be fleeting. Sometimes you'd like for them to last. If you're angry for a good reason, it feels good; happy, etc. Emotions are fleeting. Can't be in a state of emotional upheaval constantly or chronically, or you cannot think the Word, make sound spiritual decisions.
You have to maintain a spiritual equilibrium, mental sobriety, and you can't live in a state of emotional upheaval. People try to live that way and they get contaminated. You can't do it at any level. Whether it's a positive or negative emotional state. You have to have the Word of God in your mind, which requires in-depth thinking. You cannot think in depth when you're in an agitated emotional state.”
____________________
I read this several times. The first thing I noticed, these confrontation sessions (which typically were screaming sessions) were not to produce anger in the recipient. Anger is a very normal response to verbal abuse. If that was the response, lcm defines it something that is willfully done (not) and an improper response. Taken all together, he is defining emotions at two extremes where it is either fleeting or mental state (possession). Those are the only two choices. We were supposed to be almost emotionless or we couldn’t think “the Word.”
I remember being taught this. The end result of course, was to deal out the abuse without feeling much of anything and take it without feeling much of anything. At least that’s how he thought it should work…if not, well you’re possessed. At the same time, it ruled the emotions of conscience.
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T-Bone
Grrrrrrrrr….there's a lot of hellfire-power in lcm's words…Just like the unrealistic "positive thinking" crap they pushed – we're also told to have "positive emotions"…..yeah, dream on in happy Way World...
Regarding emotions, I read something interesting in a book - The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness by Antonio Damasio. I read it a few years ago – so I'm a little fuzzy on the details…but anyway…the book talks about something doctors noticed in patients that had trauma to the portion of the brain that handles emotions. They found it was extremely difficult for these patients to make rational decisions….
The way I take it – we were DESIGNED to USE our emotions in the decision-making process….It's part of our make up….what makes us human…it's dumb to think we can turn off portions of our brain like it's a machine with fully articulated control switches….What'll they think of next "you can't go beyond what you're taught"?.....oh wait, vpw already came up with that. That's where you turn off the switches to Critical Thinking and Creative Thinking…..alright, just forget this whole post. It's based on negative emotions. I wrote it out of anger over lcm's words. [but then again – I could replace my opening "Grrrrrrrrr" with the smiley face emoticon :) and I bet this post could sneak by TWI's thought-police] [note to self: from now on preface any criticisms of TWI with a smiley face :) ]
[***Test, test, this is only a test***trying out new criticism technique: :) "What really gets me so fired-up angry is thinking about the twofold destruction wrought by these predators – ravaging people in the name of Christianity."]
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Eyesopen
Hence it ruled out emotions that would make you feel guilty or remorseful and in turn would allow you to bear no responsibility for your actions. It is obvious that twi was good at teaching this concept. I always heard it as "We live in grace, not the law". So it was ok to just do whatever you wanted to do because God would forgive us our sins.
This implies several things on the part of the "sinner". The first of which is that he / she knew before hand that what they were doing or going to do was a sin.
Romans 6:1 & 2:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Christ died so that we could be free of sin. We have Christ in us to fight the inherent sin nature of man. It is an incredible insult to God and Jesus Christ when we who are "dead" to sin make a conscious choice to sin and then have the huevos to ask God to forgive us for it! To receive God's forgiveness for sin one must be repentant. Do not mock God! That's what the scripture tells us. I cannot subscribe to the school of thought that absolves a habitual sinner from just consequences simply because he "invoked" God's grace.
In my mind it takes incredible arrogance to believe that God Almighty would be at your beck and call like some trollop or tail kissing fool. The unmitigated gaul and pride that it takes to expect God to forgive a premeditated sin that one intends to commit again! The common saying, "Better to ask forgiveness than ask permission" should never be applied to God as if He were some camp follower that can be summoned like a personal fix-it slave.
Yet that was the attitude of many in twi. The concept of personal responsibilty never entered their minds. God forbid one should ever feel genuine remorse for consciously sinning against their God. We wouldn't want to dwell upon a negative now would we? That would be a certain road to possession...what a bunch of hoowie!
The more I look at it the more I see how most of the major teachings in twi were designed to further entrench a person into the abuse. They would heap false and skewed doctrines upon us that would cause the listener to switch off the gut emotions that could protect us, doctrines that would fill us with a false sense of superiority, doctrines that seperated us from Christ, doctrines that made us rulers over God's will, doctrines that made hurting our fellow brothers and sisters in deplorable ways and doctrines that absolved us of the consequences for our sins. All of them designed to keep us chained to their legs and feeding the coffers. All of them abusive. But they built upon each other in such a subtle way that most of us didnt see it until much later.
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another spot
I forgot in my post to say this was excerpts from a GS document.
To tell you the truth, I was quite hesitant to post it. However, I think it is really important to understand the problem with twi is much bigger than doctrinal error. It didn’t just mess us up in our relationships with God and each other from a Biblical point of view. It isn’t enough to simply say it was abusive.
The organization in its teaching literally stripped away our basic humanity, conscience, feelings, all the God-given things that we were born with. Normal defense mechanisms gone. And yes, Eyes, no personal responsibility. And this coming from a psych. major…
Going back to an earlier post of mine. It really is important in recovery from twi to reconsider emotion and conscience. I also think it is very important to reconsider personal responsibility in light of this. It isn’t just a matter of separating out doctrinal/practical error.
And yes, this is lcm. But just consider who taught him. Even in vpw days emotions/feelings had no respect. Some emotions were assigned devil spirits (spirit of depression and fear spring to mind). Feelings come and go, it’s the truth that abides, as I posted earlier. Here’s your retemory. Drive your natural defense mechanisms and conscience out of your mind…Fear was always wrong. Guilt and condemnation are wrong (conscience). Sometimes fear is a very good and healthy warning sign. All the things that told us “don’t touch that stove, it’s hot,” were worked out of us. Not only to ourselves, but our dealings with others.
Even without critical thinking skills in play, the very things that would have warned us, such as emotion and conscience, were driven out.
Now ask me again, why did we stay so long…there was no gun to your head. Yes there was. It was a spiritual gun. And the bullets were: do it or get possessed. You will be a grease spot by midnight. God won’t spit in your direction.
All the time teaching the truth will set you free. How much freedom was in twi? Virtually none. The more than abundant life? I think we lost our most precious possessions. Ourselves, tops the list.
Excellent, terrific posts, T-bone, and Eyes.
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