About the time I think I’ve really gotten to the bottom of what was wrong with twi, I realize there is yet another layer. I see now the “knowledge” trip was just a symptom. As much as I would like to finally put this all to rest and behind me, I just can’t yet. I get really tired of Gs sometimes. I tell myself I am done and won’t be back. Then I come back because I am just not done. Something isn’t.
It's that bloody onion again! The smell got you right out of that hallway didn't it? Heee ehehhheee
So if I'm reading you correctly then knowledge would be a symptom of spiritual abuse? I look at it more like knowledge was one of the baseball bats of spiritual abuse. If I were to say "God told me...." then yes I am using the Lords name in vain but I am also using my knowledge that puffed me up to batter the poor fool that has the displeasure of listening to me at the time. Mind you although I have in the past been guilty of using said bat against someone I felt filthy doing it. I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything. I felt that way then and do now. But the difference is that "then" I was immersed in the lake of dangola that twi spewed. So I did it anyway.
It was the knowledge that puffed me up and made me seem smarter and more "spiritual" than I really was. Anyone can use little known scriptures or a good combination of well known ones and sound like a true megaphone prophet of God Almighty. We've all seen it done, some of us to our shame...have done it.
I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you or agreeing just looking at it from my perspective. Let me go sit on the couch and think for a few.
I wasn’t very clear Eyes, was I? What I meant was the regular inappropriate use of knowledge indicates disrespect for God and people in the same manner that any abuse is disrespectful. Logically, the disrespect must be there first. Yes, of course, then the knowledge becomes the tool or vehicle for how the attitude is expressed. Attaching to it that it is God’s will and the fact that the knowledge is about God, then indirectly and directly God is used for a baseball bat also.
So taking the Lord’s name in vain is the state for lack of a better word, and the means is knowledge. Knowledge isn’t a problem, the inappropriate use of it is.
Thus I conclude, the root of the problem isn’t just the fact that knowledge was elevated above all else. Or even that fact that it was misused. I am merely pointing out the disrespect is an issue.
I’m really not looking at this from the point of view of us individuals so much as the organization itself. I think very few of us ever had any intention of disrespecting God. Far from it. I surely have no intention of condemning anyone. It’s in the past, what can we do about it now except try to understand it so we don’t inadvertently keep up the stuff? We were caught up in something that wasn’t what it appeared to be, imo.
It took going to a tiny little church in a Podunk town to find out after all these years what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain. Kinda important information, I think.
My husband and I were just talking about this subject in the kitchen before I sat down and pulled up this thread... funny how things work.
This has got to be the ULTIMATE taking of the name of the Lord in vain. To use Him as a weapon against others, to hurt them, to bind them, to put them in bondage, to manipulate and use His own children for your own personal gain.
II Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
It made Jesus Christ mad enough to overturn tables in the temple when he saw that place of worship turned into a place to make money.
John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
The "knowledge" of the "Word" was used against people. It hurt them. It was used as bait for the unwary.
Thanks you guys, I am really glad you got something from it. I was just thinking about some recent threads is all…I enjoyed your post, JJ.
“I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything.” –Eyes. Me too…
Some other things: I think about vp claiming to fool someone he was speaking in tongues and interpreting in Greek, yet he was not at all fluent in Greek, well, just all the things he lied about to support the idea that he was the mog and a Bible expert. How about all the claims of revelation? “This is the guidance…” I could give many examples you guys are familiar with.
Twi was in essence built on vp’s premise that it was ok to take the Lord’s name in vain. He lived it as a lifestyle. On top of this premise he stacked a mountain of “knowledge.” It isn’t surprising to me he went that route. It doesn’t surprise me he collected a bunch of stuff that didn’t address that sin isn’t OK and treated God like a genie in a bottle, heavy focus on the spirit realm, fear motivation, etc.
In that light, I made the statement on another thread that it is interesting that the first thing so many exwayfers turn to is love God love your neighbor, almost instinctively…which leads me to believe twi was a thing we put on for awhile that caused us to behave strangely but I don’t think it was the real us.
While I understand all this, I still don’t understand what it is in a person that makes them think abuse is OK. I don’t think disrespect for God and others completely explains it. What causes the disrespect? Or am I trying to dig too far?
Why do I care? Because part of recovery is understanding the abuser. Because I lived in this mess for 20 yrs. and I still don’t fully understand how it affected me and why.
Wow...Love God and Love your neighbor WAS what God brought me back to.
I was in crisis....I was in the car screaming..I litterally told God to eff himself (accompanied with finger gesture and all) and told him...that at THIS point I wasn`t even sure if he existed...BUT if he did....to just stay the he11 away from me...because EVERYTHING I had ever been taught about him was a lie...
Well suddenly ...(it is hard to describe) in the midst of my emotional storm....I feel/hear? this utterly calm thought...kind of in the way of a chuckle...Well now that we finally have THAT understood..how about we start back at square one. Yeah I know...nutso...but the thought/voice was so chrystal clear...so calm in the midst of the turmoil and hurt of my own thoughts...it stopped me cold.
I got mad and said something defiantly....like ...I`ll never trust anybody or anything to ever again to tell me about God (this even included scriptures at the time)
The calm voice asked kindly...well do you think that can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a place to start??
I was at a cross roads at that point...I had to decide if he even existed...(I really wanted to believe) ...and I got a call from a man that night that has only had contact in my life a handfull of times...each time ...he told me God told him to come see me...one time he traveled with his family of 5 in a vw beetle 2000 mile and found me at a our family at our camp that required travel on 20 miles of winding unmarked logging trails and showed up unanounced....he told me the next day that God had told him he needed to come talk to me...That was when I was 14 or 15 .
I hadn`t talked to the man in a decade...and he said..h`llo Cath...this is you uncle Ron...and I interupted him n yelled...NO...you tell God that I don`t WANT to talk to him any more....he just roared with laughter...he knew that I didn`t mean it....he said I`ll be there tomorrow...um...where do you live??? (He had gotten my number from my dad..I don`t think he even knew what state I lived in...lol)
ALl it took was me acknowldeging that I knew nothing....and God went right to work...
But Love God and love your neighbor was the foundation upon which everything ele was built.
I was at a cross roads at that point...I had to decide if he even existed...(I really wanted to believe) ...and I got a call from a man that night that has only had contact in my life a handfull of times...each time ...he told me God told him to come see me...one time he traveled with his family of 5 in a vw beetle 2000 mile and found me at a our family at our camp that required travel on 20 miles of winding unmarked logging trails and showed up unanounced....he told me the next day that God had told him he needed to come talk to me.
ROFLOL - and she isn't kidding about the 20 miles of winding, unmarked logging trails. That had to have been God, because without God the man never would have found his way there!!! ROFLOL
Another spot that is what is so humbling. That he CARES enough to reach out even when we are throwing a temper tantrum like a two yr old.
I was hurt, I was angry, distraught to realize that none of the formulas or principles or action that we were taught that would keep us safe no matter how scrupulously applied ...could prevent disaster. ... and the voice was so calm...so kind
The subsequent learning...I gotta assume that it is God...(I know in my heart) because of my deep distrust of anybody wielding scriptures...and everybody else thanks to twi`s instilled out look on people outside of twi...
It is truly humbling that he appears to care enough to minister on a level that I can accept. The important issues....I am shown meticulously from three different sources...and when the dot`s are finally connected...I hear/feel this calm chuckle...and get this feeling of an elbow in my rib...yeah...I showed you here n here...but you know...it`s in the scriptures too...like our own little private joke.
Another spot I am sorry for derailing your already excellent thread...but gee whiz...to find out that this what God has to teach so many of us...whew.
Your posts have really brought a smile to my face this morning...establishing yet again (as if he needs to...lol) his willingness to care for us ...evebn when we are brats.
Rascal: I read your posts and I can almost feel it myself. No kidding, I can.
It reminds me of something else I learned in that tiny little church. (I don’t go there anymore because they starting doing the performance thing.). The Pastor mentioned often how God looks for us, calls out to us, beckoning us back to Him. It’s such a tenderhearted, non-condemning thing. The first thing God said to Adam and Eve was where are you? He knew full well where they were. And then He covered them.
It’s not a derail at all, Rascal. I think it is an important perspective on the healing aspect that no matter what we’ve been through and no matter how far off the road we get, we aren’t out of the reach of God’s love the instant the time is right. Oh well. If I say anymore I’ll just repeat you and you said so beautifully…
Whether we get it at all, He does. That’s a really comforting thought, Rascal, and it really gives me a lot of peace.
Rascal darlin' I just love that story! I know that chuckle. The first time that I heard it I thought that I was going insane. But it was clear as a bell. I also understand the temper tantrum although a chuckle was not the appropriate response at the time (I was on a mountain in Tinnie, NM. at the time on my very exciting LEAD adventure).
ASpot, ok so now I understand what you are getting at. Your comment about "disrespect" hit a cord with me. According to Romans 1 "disrespect" is one of the first things that a believer does when begins to fall away towards idolatry. I don't mean this to sound like anyone here is an idolater it is just what I have seen in Romans during my studies. TWI by the way was not even close when they taught this chapter. They violated some of their own principals to promote their own doctrine. I know that surprises some of you and probably makes some others mad. Oh well.
The thing about Romans 1 is that contrary to what twi taught it is written to standing believers about believers that have fallen away from God. In verse 21 it states "Because that when they knew (ginosko) God (clearly born again) they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful." The decline of the believer starts with disrespecting God by not thanking Him for anything and not glorifying (worshipping) Him as God (basically idolatry).
Then because they did not worship God or thank Him for anything...verse 21 continues with "but became vain (empty) in their imaginations (thoughts that had no godly substance hence "imaginations") and their foolish heart was darkened. (the seat of their commitment and love became filled with foolish thoughts and lived in darkness, as opposed to the light of God)" If that were not enough verse 22 states, "Professing themselves to be wise (arrogant) they became fools. (not so smart after all)."
This chapter has been erroneously applied to the “perished ones”, or the “lost souls”, or to the “devil’s minions on earth”. Because it is difficult for some to conceive that a born again Christian could be capable of these horrible things. But the reference is to those that “know the judgments of God”. It is written to and about those that “ginosko” literally know by intimate experience the judgments of God because they know God. Even I had difficulty believing it. But then I remembered that Jesus was sold out by one of his own disciples and when Jesus was arrested Peter denied him three times in the space of a couple of hours. These are people that spent time with the only begotten Son of God, and yet they were capable of sins of great magnitude. God would not have spent so much time correcting wrong behavior in His people if the behavior were not occurring.
When I look at it from that perspective it is not altogether difficult to imagine someone that is a member of the church of the body wandering so far off of the mark. I sometimes need to remind myself that these people think that they are correct, for in their own eyes they are wise and they will be the first ones to tell you so.
I think that it is possible to idolize yourself and to perpetrate that same idolatry. This in many ways is what twi did, they promoted the idolatry of vp. To worship idols is not in the believers "nature" but anybody can do things that are outside of their nature for any amount of time. As is easily seen and witnessed to in Romans 1. This "idolatry" was not something that most of us did willingly or even knowingly. But to keep the peace or to fit in or to just not be condemned by people that we cared about and respected many of us turned a blind eye. We were 'bewitched' (as ASpot said to me in a PM concerning this subject). I think that it is very easy to ignore this type of disrespect/idolatry and that is why God admonishes us to not eat with idolatrer, to not share feasts with idolaters, to not attend their "services" and other such stuff. Because it is too easy to just ignore it. It is very subtle.
For those that care I did an indepth study of Romans 1 for another project of mine and it was necessary to get the complete context of the verses in question. If anyone is interested in the entire study they can PM me as it is too big to put on a post or even PM to someone it has to go through regular email. Or I could just put it in my blog.
Wow…Another Spot – awesome post and thread…everyone’s posts…great!...I don’t have a blessed thing to contribute – because I just got my mind blown…like Rascal was saying – so many more pieces coming together [loved your story by the way]. I was busy buzzin’ around other threads and Tonto asked me if I checked this one out – sure glad I did…I’ve scanned The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse – will get back to it someday – right now I’m re-reading Hassan’s Combating Cult Mind Control…So much to read and think about…so little time.
Fascinating post, Eyes. I reread Romans 1 and a verse caught my attention:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The point of this verse is not that the truth isn’t known but is held in unrighteousness.
Galatians 3:1-3 NIV
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Bewitched is an interesting word. In that culture, it was understood as like an “evil eye,” and if one looked at it, a spell would be cast. Breaking the spell involved looking away. The Galatians were under legalism to carry out their relationship with God. Paul was saying they were looking at the wrong thing. As long as they did so, they were blind to the truth and caught up in their own human efforts. The Galatians were not living according to God’s standards, but the standards of men…their interpretation of proper living. It was controlling and abusive.
Using an example everyone is familiar with, believing was certainly taught in twi. In practice, it was not believing but mental human effort. The focus was not on God’s ability to do but our own mental gymnastics to get results. Our lives were judged in light of how successful we were, not according to Biblical standards, but twi’s. Such as, believe to get enough money to go to the Rock.
Abuse is about power, but it is also about control. Control is exercising more authority over another than is rightful. It can be either covert (subtle) or overt (obvious) or a mixture. I read in a post somewhere (I think it was Tonto that said it in the thread on the False prophet thread) about vp screaming about mints. That is overt. The target is expected to perform at an unreasonable level to satisfy the controller.
Spiritual abuse is also psychological and has this effect of bewitching. The spell is not only doctrinal error but emotional. When people are being abused, they tend not to see it for what it is and get caught up in trying by their human effort to meet unreasonable standards to maintain what they believe is God’s standards. The difficulty of this leads to guilt and shame and even more effort to try harder. It is much the same as an abusive marriage. If one does not know what a healthy relationship looks like, or if one is unaware of what abuse is, it was quite difficult to recognize. It starts out friendly and caring. It looks good. Slowly the abuse creeps in. More and more is expected. Boundaries are lost.
It is human nature to want to get along with others and to want to please others. Children by nature want to please their parents. We wanted to please God. It is also human nature to respond with more effort when we feel we have failed. It is an attempt to regain that sense of caring and acceptance. The twig setting put a lot of pressure on people in this regard. The level of control twi exercised would not have been possible without the frequent small group meetings with tc’s given as much authority has they had.
Exposure of oneself is difficult. To be honest I don’t feel real comfortable with it. However, I am going to put some of myself out there. I have a reason. That is, I have a great heart’s desire to make this subject understandable as possible. I am copying and pasting a section of my post from the “seizures” thread.
”As a child, I was physically and sexually abused. I don’t recall when the beatings started other than I don’t remember a time when it wasn’t going on. It was brutal and multiple times per day. I don’t remember a day I wasn’t one solid red-purple bruise from my neck down to my knees. I prayed every day for a year I would die so I could go to heaven.
During the summer after second grade, I talked to a neighbor about it. She took me to church and I got born again when I heard about Jesus. That night while taking a bubble bath I spoke in tongues. Things changed after that. I would get thoughts to say this or that when I could sense a beating about to come and say them. He would stop in his tracks. The anger I could see would disappear like flipping a switch. I weighed 55 lbs. pounds at the time and I spiritually took control of the house. I knew perfectly well I was dealing with spirits. My terror of him was not greater than my desire to protect a younger brother and sister. I really did it more for them. I lived this way for another four years day in and day out.”
As an adult, I spent 17 yrs. with an abusive husband while being in an abusive religion. I’ve read a gazillion books on the subject of abuse. However, the majority deal with it as someone who hasn’t experienced it. I can tell you I was an abused child. You can apprehend, you cannot comprehend, no matter what I say. You weren’t there, you didn’t feel the feelings, you didn’t have to deal with your mind and the situation.
I have no degrees or credentials. I have my life, the books I’ve read, and what Scripture I know. I do not ask for or need pity. I am a child of God and I am OK. More than OK. I’ve journeyed out to a great degree, but as of this date I am not completely satisfied. I simply want to pass on what I know at this point. As I do, it becomes more clear to me also.
I want to leave you with this thought: Experience does not define a person. One’s response does.
ASpot, Thank you for sharing that amazing story! What an incredibly strong and loving heart that you must have my dear! To ask for and then willingly accept that kind of responsibility at such a young age speaks volumes.
You are so right concerning the ability for someone who has not "been there done that" to truly comprehend what goes on in a persons mind and heart that has actually experienced it. I have actually met people that tell fish stories or "fake" it so that they can claim to comprehend. I am not certain what benefit they receive for their deceit.
Your explanation puts into focus why we all come here to GS. Because we have all shared the same or related abuser and abuse. That is why no-one else would understand us when we spoke to friends about it. That is why some people that were never in TWI or were not abused by TWI can ask us "Why didn't you just leave?" That is the same thing that people who live in abusive marraiges hear. Its because people that only apprehend do not understand the level of control that is exercised.
I had a Norm@n R*ckwell type of childhood so I cannot comprehend what you went through. I did endure an abusive marriage although until recently I did not realize just how abusive. And of course I had TWI abuse as well but certainly not to the extent of some folks. It's strange to me that I could avoid the majority of direct abuse in TWI only to walk out and marry someone who is 100 times worse. (shaking my head...again)
Love that stuff in Galatians, the Bible really does fit together...just not the way that twi taught us it did.
I love this thread. Thanks to all who have posted here!
I have been thinking a lot about power and control and how they relate to all types of abuse. The need to control or exert power over another is never part of any healthy relationship. So much of what we were taught by twi involved a lust for power - over our circumstances, over our emotions, and over other people. This is what led to the abuse.
We wanted to control our lives in every aspect. We were taught we had to control our every emotion (translation: do not have any) and never allow ourselves to doubt what we were taught. We were taught that we had to obey (translation: be controlled by) leadership. We (as women) were taught that we had to submit to our husbands. We were taught that being submissive was a good thing... It was all about power and control... whether it was our control or someone else's.
How human it is to want to be in control.
My husband and I were talking about some relationships we see around us where one party is only involved with the other because they can somehow have power over the other. My husband and I suddenly realized that we each knew we could never really control the other - and that we were ok with that. Control is not an issue with us. We are equals in this relationship even though we have different roles. That is what a healthy relationship should be.
God gave us the ability to choose where we want our lives to go, even though He could ultimately be in complete control over everything. He is the only one who is omnipotent. He is also love - and He does not make our decisions for us.
Control and power... this is what rape is about, this is what violent crimes are about, this is what abuse is about.
I'm learning to let go of that bondage of being controlled and being controlling. It's a real nice feeling.
I had to laugh at your last post, Eyes. I remember how awkward it was trying to explain to my parents why my ex and I couldn’t make even a minor decision without the approval of leadership.
Once again: Great post JJ!
Abuse in any form isn’t funny. It isn’t theoretical. Spiritual abuse is just as terrible as any other kind, if not more so. I’ve tried to express that it takes something quite wrong with a person to be willing to abuse others, especially on a regular basis. It is harming others without mercy or conscience. Most certainly it is the exact opposite of love God and love your neighbor.
I really use to see twi more in the sense of doctrinal error. I saw vp as someone who sinned greatly and perhaps a false prophet. I am finally getting around to looking at him in light of the fruit of his ministry. There are a lot of things I can conclude simply from having lived with abusive people, looking at what the Bible says, as well as having been in twi. I never knew him personally, but I can certainly deduce a lot without having to guess what was in his mind or his character. It is obvious.
Eyesopen’s Romans post got me thinking about people, especially leaders, who claim to know God but whose lives and ministries don’t reflect even the basics.
Tts 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Tts 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
The word “blameless” means a leader is to live righteously sets a proper example.
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
“Selfwilled” has to do with pride and stubbornness and being focused on oneself. He was not to be quick tempered, or drink a lot. A “striker” has to do with violence in words and/or actions. “Filthy lucre” is inappropriate desire for money.
Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
He thinks clearly, is proper in his behavior toward others, has a right relationship with God, and he has self control.
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
“Unruly and vain talkers” talk the Bible but it doesn’t produce godly results. The result is deceiving, and in this context, particularly true of legalism.
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
They were teaching things they shouldn’t for dishonorable gain. It could be ego or money.
Those things a leader is not to be pretty much describe twi to me…A ministry built on taking the Lord’s name in vain and legalism is obviously not going to produce godly results. I would have to put most of twi in the category of unruly and vain talking.
dooj said it nicely on another thread...something along the lines of the ministry being the shifting sands that the many of us built our houses of honest intentions on.
I butchered it pretty well there.... but I think this goes right along with understanding why there were so many many good hearted people that gave their hearts and lives in service...that are now grasping and struggling to try to figure out why our best efforts and good intentions could come crashing down around our ears.
Another Spot... I think that it is vital to understand what you have postes here...I think that untill we understand what happened, we are doomed to struggle trying to make a faulty system of belief work.
It is a tough tough thing to face...your back ground of horrendous abuse seems to equip you to recognize these things.
You are a strong person...I am sickened to read of your abuse....... but rather than destroy you...as it would have many of us...you seem to have become strong ... .
Thanks for shedding light in a way that I can understand these issues.
Rascal: That was one terrific post. You are quite right. It is a tough thing to face. I struggle with this thread daily because I really don’t particularly like thinking about it. It would be very easy to abandon the entire thing. It seriously would. What actually started the wheels turning in my head was reading about the women vp sexually abused as well as children sexually abused by leadership. I realized something is far more rotten in Denmark than I previously supposed. And, it isn’t as if I didn’t know about it. I knew this from my Waydale days. Yet until now I just wasn’t ready to examine it for what it is. How exactly does that fit into this picture? How do you reconcile this with a ministry that teaches the Bible? I am starting to understand.
In a way I am sorry about talking about my childhood. In another way, it was important to me to make it perfectly clear I am not having an intellectual or theoretical conversation with you. This isn’t something we can beat around the bush with and understand. Now let’s look at this for what it is, as hard as that may be. And as you do, please remember you are not responsible for actions that are not your own. I also want to remind you, your experiences don’t define you. Your response does.
Mentally, I so often go back to T-bone’s conscience thread. I hope you know how really important it was. Without it, I would not understand what I do today. It really was a very necessary piece of the puzzle.
In the words of my great aunt: Life isn’t for sissies.
I also go back to Eye’s backbone thread, and some synonyms I posted there: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, self-discipline.
"TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings(the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled. "
I think this goes right along with understanding why there were so many many good hearted people that gave their hearts and lives in service...that are now grasping and struggling to try to figure out why our best efforts and good intentions could come crashing down around our ears.
Great post Rascal!
This is what I have been struggling with since arriving here at the Spot. "What did I do to screw things up so much?" That was the question for too many years. But as time has gone on, I have come to the realization that I didn't screw it up. It was messed up long before I got involved with it all.
But then come the questions like, "How could I be so stupid?" or "Why didn't I see it?". Then I realize that this is also a reactionary question to abuse. Condemnation. "You" had to have done "something"....
Condemnation the true mortor in the walls that kept us in our prisons. The bricks were the false doctrines and erroneous beliefs, the bars were the the MOG's that allowed us peons to clutch onto them while we gazed at freedom beyond them and their walls.
Spot-I love that you shared your childhood with us. Your experience taught you how to truly hear God and how to receive revelation at a young age. In some ways you were raised by God and Jesus Christ. I love to hear the things that they taught you. I dont think that you were in any way weak to go from one abusive relationship to another, because you learned a lot and without you being willing to teach us what you know....well I cant speak for others, but you know my situation at home, I don't know where we would be without your counsel (and a couple of others). Probably drowning in a very large vat of pickles.
As soon as I started reading this thread, I thought of the day my family was banished from the Indiana Campus. Some of you already know the events that followed that day, ugly stuff, so I won't go there right now. But the concept of taking God's name in vain ... and this being a form of abuse ... well, that's totally accurate in describing what happened to me as an individual, that day.
To keep it brief, the MOG or "mosquito of God" (so you will know who I'm referring to) called me and my husband into his office, where none of us sat down, but simply stood there, waiting. He turned his back and paced a bit. I always thought he was pretending to be Jesus, drawing a line in the sand, as the story goes. And then he turned and faced us, and said (to ME):
"God has shown me that you are a self-willed bitch, and that you are contaminating the others here".
He went on to inform my husband that he should divorce me, keep the kids, and stay there in Rome City. But this never happened. we left, as a family.
What DID happen was that for days and weeks and months, I questioned whether this was all true. Despite my utter hatred for this man, I was programmed strongly enough to believe that he spoke for God, that it was nearly impossible to let go of this notion.
I'm really OK now, and don't mean to play the victim, at this point in my life. But at the time ...
I actually believed that God had rejected me. I remember returning to our room, to "pack our things fast", because he had ordered us to be off the property by nightfall. But all I could do was just crawl under the old chipped sink that stuck out from one wall of our room, and sit there hugging my knees, and rocking back and forth like a scared little kid. I had known since I was a child that God loved me, and I had prayed my requests and my thanks to him every day of my life, but after "Reverend" Mosquito's revelation ... FROM GOD ... it was like there was no God anymore ... and I was all alone.
Of course it was all bull sh!t It was the ultimate in taking God's name in vain. And it was abuse.
Oh Shifra. I know you are ok now. At the same time, I went through something similar. I read your post and I cried and cried. I cried for me, for you, for all who have gone through this. I know what it is to hug your knees and think God is gone and I am all alone. It is the most horrible experience I can think of. You bet it was taking God’s name in vain and you bet it was abuse.
Was this what God had in mind? I think not.
Thanks for your post. I am fairly certain it was really hard to write. It’s hard to go back there. It’s hard to remember. Let’s face it. It’s hard to face.
What courage it takes to look something like that in the eye and say, “I don’t care what you say, I am OK.” “You brought me to this degradation, but that doesn’t mean I really am.” That is YOUR opinion.
Oh geeze Shifra. I can completely relate to you. I have told the story about what happened when I was 18 ...the interim copres bc wife declared me posessed....The shame, the feeling of being contaminated, the bewilderment of not knowing how I could have become posessed when I had endeavored to do my very best to serve him and be a blessing.
I couldn`t stay in the house that I rented with these people...I left it to them along with my furniture and such...I couldn`t go home in another state..to the believers whom had so lovingly nurtured and taught me because I now believed that I was spiritual scum and I might inadvertently contaminate one of my loved ones. I couldn`t turn to God because I had become posessed.
How can you continue living when there is no one you can turn to??? I sat at the red river bridge for a long time trying to decide if I ought rid the world of spiritually filthy self. I was so afraid that I would get somebody else contaminated since I didn`t know how it had happened to me.
I almost did. I decided instead, that I would go home to my natural man family...since they were all posessed to and await the physical death that I assumed would follow my spiritual death that I had been promised would happen if I returned to the town where there were no believers.
I thought that was the safest thing because no believers would be in danger.
The depths of despair...the complete loathing of self...the utter separation from God and all whom I loved...it was the deepest and most blackest of despair...a bleakness that defies description. All this (I found out years later) because the bc `s wife was feeling ....y because SHE didn`t get the assignement that SHE had told God that SHE wanted....she was taking it out on the local believers.
SHe destroyed a heart and life :( in a single selfish mean moment
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Eyesopen
It's that bloody onion again! The smell got you right out of that hallway didn't it? Heee ehehhheee
So if I'm reading you correctly then knowledge would be a symptom of spiritual abuse? I look at it more like knowledge was one of the baseball bats of spiritual abuse. If I were to say "God told me...." then yes I am using the Lords name in vain but I am also using my knowledge that puffed me up to batter the poor fool that has the displeasure of listening to me at the time. Mind you although I have in the past been guilty of using said bat against someone I felt filthy doing it. I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything. I felt that way then and do now. But the difference is that "then" I was immersed in the lake of dangola that twi spewed. So I did it anyway.
It was the knowledge that puffed me up and made me seem smarter and more "spiritual" than I really was. Anyone can use little known scriptures or a good combination of well known ones and sound like a true megaphone prophet of God Almighty. We've all seen it done, some of us to our shame...have done it.
I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you or agreeing just looking at it from my perspective. Let me go sit on the couch and think for a few.
Love ya!
BTW that is an awsome definition!
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another spot
I wasn’t very clear Eyes, was I? What I meant was the regular inappropriate use of knowledge indicates disrespect for God and people in the same manner that any abuse is disrespectful. Logically, the disrespect must be there first. Yes, of course, then the knowledge becomes the tool or vehicle for how the attitude is expressed. Attaching to it that it is God’s will and the fact that the knowledge is about God, then indirectly and directly God is used for a baseball bat also.
So taking the Lord’s name in vain is the state for lack of a better word, and the means is knowledge. Knowledge isn’t a problem, the inappropriate use of it is.
Thus I conclude, the root of the problem isn’t just the fact that knowledge was elevated above all else. Or even that fact that it was misused. I am merely pointing out the disrespect is an issue.
I’m really not looking at this from the point of view of us individuals so much as the organization itself. I think very few of us ever had any intention of disrespecting God. Far from it. I surely have no intention of condemning anyone. It’s in the past, what can we do about it now except try to understand it so we don’t inadvertently keep up the stuff? We were caught up in something that wasn’t what it appeared to be, imo.
It took going to a tiny little church in a Podunk town to find out after all these years what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain. Kinda important information, I think.
And, love ya back!
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JavaJane
What an awesome post, ASpot!!
My husband and I were just talking about this subject in the kitchen before I sat down and pulled up this thread... funny how things work.
This has got to be the ULTIMATE taking of the name of the Lord in vain. To use Him as a weapon against others, to hurt them, to bind them, to put them in bondage, to manipulate and use His own children for your own personal gain.
II Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
It made Jesus Christ mad enough to overturn tables in the temple when he saw that place of worship turned into a place to make money.
John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
The "knowledge" of the "Word" was used against people. It hurt them. It was used as bait for the unwary.
Sick.
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rascal
Oh MAN...does THIS put the pieces in place...
Thank you another spot...wow. It explains so many difficulties.
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another spot
Thanks you guys, I am really glad you got something from it. I was just thinking about some recent threads is all…I enjoyed your post, JJ.
“I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything.” –Eyes. Me too…
Some other things: I think about vp claiming to fool someone he was speaking in tongues and interpreting in Greek, yet he was not at all fluent in Greek, well, just all the things he lied about to support the idea that he was the mog and a Bible expert. How about all the claims of revelation? “This is the guidance…” I could give many examples you guys are familiar with.
Twi was in essence built on vp’s premise that it was ok to take the Lord’s name in vain. He lived it as a lifestyle. On top of this premise he stacked a mountain of “knowledge.” It isn’t surprising to me he went that route. It doesn’t surprise me he collected a bunch of stuff that didn’t address that sin isn’t OK and treated God like a genie in a bottle, heavy focus on the spirit realm, fear motivation, etc.
In that light, I made the statement on another thread that it is interesting that the first thing so many exwayfers turn to is love God love your neighbor, almost instinctively…which leads me to believe twi was a thing we put on for awhile that caused us to behave strangely but I don’t think it was the real us.
While I understand all this, I still don’t understand what it is in a person that makes them think abuse is OK. I don’t think disrespect for God and others completely explains it. What causes the disrespect? Or am I trying to dig too far?
Why do I care? Because part of recovery is understanding the abuser. Because I lived in this mess for 20 yrs. and I still don’t fully understand how it affected me and why.
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rascal
Wow...Love God and Love your neighbor WAS what God brought me back to.
I was in crisis....I was in the car screaming..I litterally told God to eff himself (accompanied with finger gesture and all) and told him...that at THIS point I wasn`t even sure if he existed...BUT if he did....to just stay the he11 away from me...because EVERYTHING I had ever been taught about him was a lie...
Well suddenly ...(it is hard to describe) in the midst of my emotional storm....I feel/hear? this utterly calm thought...kind of in the way of a chuckle...Well now that we finally have THAT understood..how about we start back at square one. Yeah I know...nutso...but the thought/voice was so chrystal clear...so calm in the midst of the turmoil and hurt of my own thoughts...it stopped me cold.
I got mad and said something defiantly....like ...I`ll never trust anybody or anything to ever again to tell me about God (this even included scriptures at the time)
The calm voice asked kindly...well do you think that can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a place to start??
I was at a cross roads at that point...I had to decide if he even existed...(I really wanted to believe) ...and I got a call from a man that night that has only had contact in my life a handfull of times...each time ...he told me God told him to come see me...one time he traveled with his family of 5 in a vw beetle 2000 mile and found me at a our family at our camp that required travel on 20 miles of winding unmarked logging trails and showed up unanounced....he told me the next day that God had told him he needed to come talk to me...That was when I was 14 or 15 .
I hadn`t talked to the man in a decade...and he said..h`llo Cath...this is you uncle Ron...and I interupted him n yelled...NO...you tell God that I don`t WANT to talk to him any more....he just roared with laughter...he knew that I didn`t mean it....he said I`ll be there tomorrow...um...where do you live??? (He had gotten my number from my dad..I don`t think he even knew what state I lived in...lol)
ALl it took was me acknowldeging that I knew nothing....and God went right to work...
But Love God and love your neighbor was the foundation upon which everything ele was built.
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another spot
Rascal: That’s a really heartwarming, wonderful story. We really are HIS kids aren’t we?
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Abigail
ROFLOL - and she isn't kidding about the 20 miles of winding, unmarked logging trails. That had to have been God, because without God the man never would have found his way there!!! ROFLOL
((((Rascal))))
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rascal
Another spot that is what is so humbling. That he CARES enough to reach out even when we are throwing a temper tantrum like a two yr old.
I was hurt, I was angry, distraught to realize that none of the formulas or principles or action that we were taught that would keep us safe no matter how scrupulously applied ...could prevent disaster. ... and the voice was so calm...so kind
The subsequent learning...I gotta assume that it is God...(I know in my heart) because of my deep distrust of anybody wielding scriptures...and everybody else thanks to twi`s instilled out look on people outside of twi...
It is truly humbling that he appears to care enough to minister on a level that I can accept. The important issues....I am shown meticulously from three different sources...and when the dot`s are finally connected...I hear/feel this calm chuckle...and get this feeling of an elbow in my rib...yeah...I showed you here n here...but you know...it`s in the scriptures too...like our own little private joke.
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rascal
No kidding Abby...lol thats what I thought :)
Another spot I am sorry for derailing your already excellent thread...but gee whiz...to find out that this what God has to teach so many of us...whew.
Your posts have really brought a smile to my face this morning...establishing yet again (as if he needs to...lol) his willingness to care for us ...evebn when we are brats.
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another spot
Rascal: I read your posts and I can almost feel it myself. No kidding, I can.
It reminds me of something else I learned in that tiny little church. (I don’t go there anymore because they starting doing the performance thing.). The Pastor mentioned often how God looks for us, calls out to us, beckoning us back to Him. It’s such a tenderhearted, non-condemning thing. The first thing God said to Adam and Eve was where are you? He knew full well where they were. And then He covered them.
It’s not a derail at all, Rascal. I think it is an important perspective on the healing aspect that no matter what we’ve been through and no matter how far off the road we get, we aren’t out of the reach of God’s love the instant the time is right. Oh well. If I say anymore I’ll just repeat you and you said so beautifully…
Whether we get it at all, He does. That’s a really comforting thought, Rascal, and it really gives me a lot of peace.
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Eyesopen
Rascal darlin' I just love that story! I know that chuckle. The first time that I heard it I thought that I was going insane. But it was clear as a bell. I also understand the temper tantrum although a chuckle was not the appropriate response at the time (I was on a mountain in Tinnie, NM. at the time on my very exciting LEAD adventure).
ASpot, ok so now I understand what you are getting at. Your comment about "disrespect" hit a cord with me. According to Romans 1 "disrespect" is one of the first things that a believer does when begins to fall away towards idolatry. I don't mean this to sound like anyone here is an idolater it is just what I have seen in Romans during my studies. TWI by the way was not even close when they taught this chapter. They violated some of their own principals to promote their own doctrine. I know that surprises some of you and probably makes some others mad. Oh well.
The thing about Romans 1 is that contrary to what twi taught it is written to standing believers about believers that have fallen away from God. In verse 21 it states "Because that when they knew (ginosko) God (clearly born again) they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful." The decline of the believer starts with disrespecting God by not thanking Him for anything and not glorifying (worshipping) Him as God (basically idolatry).
Then because they did not worship God or thank Him for anything...verse 21 continues with "but became vain (empty) in their imaginations (thoughts that had no godly substance hence "imaginations") and their foolish heart was darkened. (the seat of their commitment and love became filled with foolish thoughts and lived in darkness, as opposed to the light of God)" If that were not enough verse 22 states, "Professing themselves to be wise (arrogant) they became fools. (not so smart after all)."
This chapter has been erroneously applied to the “perished ones”, or the “lost souls”, or to the “devil’s minions on earth”. Because it is difficult for some to conceive that a born again Christian could be capable of these horrible things. But the reference is to those that “know the judgments of God”. It is written to and about those that “ginosko” literally know by intimate experience the judgments of God because they know God. Even I had difficulty believing it. But then I remembered that Jesus was sold out by one of his own disciples and when Jesus was arrested Peter denied him three times in the space of a couple of hours. These are people that spent time with the only begotten Son of God, and yet they were capable of sins of great magnitude. God would not have spent so much time correcting wrong behavior in His people if the behavior were not occurring.
When I look at it from that perspective it is not altogether difficult to imagine someone that is a member of the church of the body wandering so far off of the mark. I sometimes need to remind myself that these people think that they are correct, for in their own eyes they are wise and they will be the first ones to tell you so.
I think that it is possible to idolize yourself and to perpetrate that same idolatry. This in many ways is what twi did, they promoted the idolatry of vp. To worship idols is not in the believers "nature" but anybody can do things that are outside of their nature for any amount of time. As is easily seen and witnessed to in Romans 1. This "idolatry" was not something that most of us did willingly or even knowingly. But to keep the peace or to fit in or to just not be condemned by people that we cared about and respected many of us turned a blind eye. We were 'bewitched' (as ASpot said to me in a PM concerning this subject). I think that it is very easy to ignore this type of disrespect/idolatry and that is why God admonishes us to not eat with idolatrer, to not share feasts with idolaters, to not attend their "services" and other such stuff. Because it is too easy to just ignore it. It is very subtle.
For those that care I did an indepth study of Romans 1 for another project of mine and it was necessary to get the complete context of the verses in question. If anyone is interested in the entire study they can PM me as it is too big to put on a post or even PM to someone it has to go through regular email. Or I could just put it in my blog.
I sure love you "guys" a lot!
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T-Bone
Wow…Another Spot – awesome post and thread…everyone’s posts…great!...I don’t have a blessed thing to contribute – because I just got my mind blown…like Rascal was saying – so many more pieces coming together [loved your story by the way]. I was busy buzzin’ around other threads and Tonto asked me if I checked this one out – sure glad I did…I’ve scanned The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse – will get back to it someday – right now I’m re-reading Hassan’s Combating Cult Mind Control…So much to read and think about…so little time.
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another spot
Fascinating post, Eyes. I reread Romans 1 and a verse caught my attention:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
The point of this verse is not that the truth isn’t known but is held in unrighteousness.
Galatians 3:1-3 NIV
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Bewitched is an interesting word. In that culture, it was understood as like an “evil eye,” and if one looked at it, a spell would be cast. Breaking the spell involved looking away. The Galatians were under legalism to carry out their relationship with God. Paul was saying they were looking at the wrong thing. As long as they did so, they were blind to the truth and caught up in their own human efforts. The Galatians were not living according to God’s standards, but the standards of men…their interpretation of proper living. It was controlling and abusive.
Using an example everyone is familiar with, believing was certainly taught in twi. In practice, it was not believing but mental human effort. The focus was not on God’s ability to do but our own mental gymnastics to get results. Our lives were judged in light of how successful we were, not according to Biblical standards, but twi’s. Such as, believe to get enough money to go to the Rock.
Abuse is about power, but it is also about control. Control is exercising more authority over another than is rightful. It can be either covert (subtle) or overt (obvious) or a mixture. I read in a post somewhere (I think it was Tonto that said it in the thread on the False prophet thread) about vp screaming about mints. That is overt. The target is expected to perform at an unreasonable level to satisfy the controller.
Spiritual abuse is also psychological and has this effect of bewitching. The spell is not only doctrinal error but emotional. When people are being abused, they tend not to see it for what it is and get caught up in trying by their human effort to meet unreasonable standards to maintain what they believe is God’s standards. The difficulty of this leads to guilt and shame and even more effort to try harder. It is much the same as an abusive marriage. If one does not know what a healthy relationship looks like, or if one is unaware of what abuse is, it was quite difficult to recognize. It starts out friendly and caring. It looks good. Slowly the abuse creeps in. More and more is expected. Boundaries are lost.
It is human nature to want to get along with others and to want to please others. Children by nature want to please their parents. We wanted to please God. It is also human nature to respond with more effort when we feel we have failed. It is an attempt to regain that sense of caring and acceptance. The twig setting put a lot of pressure on people in this regard. The level of control twi exercised would not have been possible without the frequent small group meetings with tc’s given as much authority has they had.
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another spot
Exposure of oneself is difficult. To be honest I don’t feel real comfortable with it. However, I am going to put some of myself out there. I have a reason. That is, I have a great heart’s desire to make this subject understandable as possible. I am copying and pasting a section of my post from the “seizures” thread.
”As a child, I was physically and sexually abused. I don’t recall when the beatings started other than I don’t remember a time when it wasn’t going on. It was brutal and multiple times per day. I don’t remember a day I wasn’t one solid red-purple bruise from my neck down to my knees. I prayed every day for a year I would die so I could go to heaven.
During the summer after second grade, I talked to a neighbor about it. She took me to church and I got born again when I heard about Jesus. That night while taking a bubble bath I spoke in tongues. Things changed after that. I would get thoughts to say this or that when I could sense a beating about to come and say them. He would stop in his tracks. The anger I could see would disappear like flipping a switch. I weighed 55 lbs. pounds at the time and I spiritually took control of the house. I knew perfectly well I was dealing with spirits. My terror of him was not greater than my desire to protect a younger brother and sister. I really did it more for them. I lived this way for another four years day in and day out.”
As an adult, I spent 17 yrs. with an abusive husband while being in an abusive religion. I’ve read a gazillion books on the subject of abuse. However, the majority deal with it as someone who hasn’t experienced it. I can tell you I was an abused child. You can apprehend, you cannot comprehend, no matter what I say. You weren’t there, you didn’t feel the feelings, you didn’t have to deal with your mind and the situation.
I have no degrees or credentials. I have my life, the books I’ve read, and what Scripture I know. I do not ask for or need pity. I am a child of God and I am OK. More than OK. I’ve journeyed out to a great degree, but as of this date I am not completely satisfied. I simply want to pass on what I know at this point. As I do, it becomes more clear to me also.
I want to leave you with this thought: Experience does not define a person. One’s response does.
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Eyesopen
ASpot, Thank you for sharing that amazing story! What an incredibly strong and loving heart that you must have my dear! To ask for and then willingly accept that kind of responsibility at such a young age speaks volumes.
You are so right concerning the ability for someone who has not "been there done that" to truly comprehend what goes on in a persons mind and heart that has actually experienced it. I have actually met people that tell fish stories or "fake" it so that they can claim to comprehend. I am not certain what benefit they receive for their deceit.
Your explanation puts into focus why we all come here to GS. Because we have all shared the same or related abuser and abuse. That is why no-one else would understand us when we spoke to friends about it. That is why some people that were never in TWI or were not abused by TWI can ask us "Why didn't you just leave?" That is the same thing that people who live in abusive marraiges hear. Its because people that only apprehend do not understand the level of control that is exercised.
I had a Norm@n R*ckwell type of childhood so I cannot comprehend what you went through. I did endure an abusive marriage although until recently I did not realize just how abusive. And of course I had TWI abuse as well but certainly not to the extent of some folks. It's strange to me that I could avoid the majority of direct abuse in TWI only to walk out and marry someone who is 100 times worse. (shaking my head...again)
Love that stuff in Galatians, the Bible really does fit together...just not the way that twi taught us it did.
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JavaJane
I love this thread. Thanks to all who have posted here!
I have been thinking a lot about power and control and how they relate to all types of abuse. The need to control or exert power over another is never part of any healthy relationship. So much of what we were taught by twi involved a lust for power - over our circumstances, over our emotions, and over other people. This is what led to the abuse.
We wanted to control our lives in every aspect. We were taught we had to control our every emotion (translation: do not have any) and never allow ourselves to doubt what we were taught. We were taught that we had to obey (translation: be controlled by) leadership. We (as women) were taught that we had to submit to our husbands. We were taught that being submissive was a good thing... It was all about power and control... whether it was our control or someone else's.
How human it is to want to be in control.
My husband and I were talking about some relationships we see around us where one party is only involved with the other because they can somehow have power over the other. My husband and I suddenly realized that we each knew we could never really control the other - and that we were ok with that. Control is not an issue with us. We are equals in this relationship even though we have different roles. That is what a healthy relationship should be.
God gave us the ability to choose where we want our lives to go, even though He could ultimately be in complete control over everything. He is the only one who is omnipotent. He is also love - and He does not make our decisions for us.
Control and power... this is what rape is about, this is what violent crimes are about, this is what abuse is about.
I'm learning to let go of that bondage of being controlled and being controlling. It's a real nice feeling.
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another spot
I had to laugh at your last post, Eyes. I remember how awkward it was trying to explain to my parents why my ex and I couldn’t make even a minor decision without the approval of leadership.
Once again: Great post JJ!
Abuse in any form isn’t funny. It isn’t theoretical. Spiritual abuse is just as terrible as any other kind, if not more so. I’ve tried to express that it takes something quite wrong with a person to be willing to abuse others, especially on a regular basis. It is harming others without mercy or conscience. Most certainly it is the exact opposite of love God and love your neighbor.
I really use to see twi more in the sense of doctrinal error. I saw vp as someone who sinned greatly and perhaps a false prophet. I am finally getting around to looking at him in light of the fruit of his ministry. There are a lot of things I can conclude simply from having lived with abusive people, looking at what the Bible says, as well as having been in twi. I never knew him personally, but I can certainly deduce a lot without having to guess what was in his mind or his character. It is obvious.
Eyesopen’s Romans post got me thinking about people, especially leaders, who claim to know God but whose lives and ministries don’t reflect even the basics.
Tts 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Tts 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
The word “blameless” means a leader is to live righteously sets a proper example.
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
“Selfwilled” has to do with pride and stubbornness and being focused on oneself. He was not to be quick tempered, or drink a lot. A “striker” has to do with violence in words and/or actions. “Filthy lucre” is inappropriate desire for money.
Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
He thinks clearly, is proper in his behavior toward others, has a right relationship with God, and he has self control.
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
“Unruly and vain talkers” talk the Bible but it doesn’t produce godly results. The result is deceiving, and in this context, particularly true of legalism.
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
They were teaching things they shouldn’t for dishonorable gain. It could be ego or money.
Those things a leader is not to be pretty much describe twi to me…A ministry built on taking the Lord’s name in vain and legalism is obviously not going to produce godly results. I would have to put most of twi in the category of unruly and vain talking.
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rascal
dooj said it nicely on another thread...something along the lines of the ministry being the shifting sands that the many of us built our houses of honest intentions on.
I butchered it pretty well there.... but I think this goes right along with understanding why there were so many many good hearted people that gave their hearts and lives in service...that are now grasping and struggling to try to figure out why our best efforts and good intentions could come crashing down around our ears.
Another Spot... I think that it is vital to understand what you have postes here...I think that untill we understand what happened, we are doomed to struggle trying to make a faulty system of belief work.
It is a tough tough thing to face...your back ground of horrendous abuse seems to equip you to recognize these things.
You are a strong person...I am sickened to read of your abuse....... but rather than destroy you...as it would have many of us...you seem to have become strong ... .
Thanks for shedding light in a way that I can understand these issues.
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another spot
Rascal: That was one terrific post. You are quite right. It is a tough thing to face. I struggle with this thread daily because I really don’t particularly like thinking about it. It would be very easy to abandon the entire thing. It seriously would. What actually started the wheels turning in my head was reading about the women vp sexually abused as well as children sexually abused by leadership. I realized something is far more rotten in Denmark than I previously supposed. And, it isn’t as if I didn’t know about it. I knew this from my Waydale days. Yet until now I just wasn’t ready to examine it for what it is. How exactly does that fit into this picture? How do you reconcile this with a ministry that teaches the Bible? I am starting to understand.
In a way I am sorry about talking about my childhood. In another way, it was important to me to make it perfectly clear I am not having an intellectual or theoretical conversation with you. This isn’t something we can beat around the bush with and understand. Now let’s look at this for what it is, as hard as that may be. And as you do, please remember you are not responsible for actions that are not your own. I also want to remind you, your experiences don’t define you. Your response does.
Mentally, I so often go back to T-bone’s conscience thread. I hope you know how really important it was. Without it, I would not understand what I do today. It really was a very necessary piece of the puzzle.
In the words of my great aunt: Life isn’t for sissies.
I also go back to Eye’s backbone thread, and some synonyms I posted there: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, self-discipline.
We had those things. We still do.
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Eyesopen
Dooj said:
"TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings(the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled. "
Great post Rascal!
This is what I have been struggling with since arriving here at the Spot. "What did I do to screw things up so much?" That was the question for too many years. But as time has gone on, I have come to the realization that I didn't screw it up. It was messed up long before I got involved with it all.
But then come the questions like, "How could I be so stupid?" or "Why didn't I see it?". Then I realize that this is also a reactionary question to abuse. Condemnation. "You" had to have done "something"....
Condemnation the true mortor in the walls that kept us in our prisons. The bricks were the false doctrines and erroneous beliefs, the bars were the the MOG's that allowed us peons to clutch onto them while we gazed at freedom beyond them and their walls.
Spot-I love that you shared your childhood with us. Your experience taught you how to truly hear God and how to receive revelation at a young age. In some ways you were raised by God and Jesus Christ. I love to hear the things that they taught you. I dont think that you were in any way weak to go from one abusive relationship to another, because you learned a lot and without you being willing to teach us what you know....well I cant speak for others, but you know my situation at home, I don't know where we would be without your counsel (and a couple of others). Probably drowning in a very large vat of pickles.
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Shifra
As soon as I started reading this thread, I thought of the day my family was banished from the Indiana Campus. Some of you already know the events that followed that day, ugly stuff, so I won't go there right now. But the concept of taking God's name in vain ... and this being a form of abuse ... well, that's totally accurate in describing what happened to me as an individual, that day.
To keep it brief, the MOG or "mosquito of God" (so you will know who I'm referring to) called me and my husband into his office, where none of us sat down, but simply stood there, waiting. He turned his back and paced a bit. I always thought he was pretending to be Jesus, drawing a line in the sand, as the story goes. And then he turned and faced us, and said (to ME):
"God has shown me that you are a self-willed bitch, and that you are contaminating the others here".
He went on to inform my husband that he should divorce me, keep the kids, and stay there in Rome City. But this never happened. we left, as a family.
What DID happen was that for days and weeks and months, I questioned whether this was all true. Despite my utter hatred for this man, I was programmed strongly enough to believe that he spoke for God, that it was nearly impossible to let go of this notion.
I'm really OK now, and don't mean to play the victim, at this point in my life. But at the time ...
I actually believed that God had rejected me. I remember returning to our room, to "pack our things fast", because he had ordered us to be off the property by nightfall. But all I could do was just crawl under the old chipped sink that stuck out from one wall of our room, and sit there hugging my knees, and rocking back and forth like a scared little kid. I had known since I was a child that God loved me, and I had prayed my requests and my thanks to him every day of my life, but after "Reverend" Mosquito's revelation ... FROM GOD ... it was like there was no God anymore ... and I was all alone.
Of course it was all bull sh!t It was the ultimate in taking God's name in vain. And it was abuse.
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another spot
Oh Shifra. I know you are ok now. At the same time, I went through something similar. I read your post and I cried and cried. I cried for me, for you, for all who have gone through this. I know what it is to hug your knees and think God is gone and I am all alone. It is the most horrible experience I can think of. You bet it was taking God’s name in vain and you bet it was abuse.
Was this what God had in mind? I think not.
Thanks for your post. I am fairly certain it was really hard to write. It’s hard to go back there. It’s hard to remember. Let’s face it. It’s hard to face.
What courage it takes to look something like that in the eye and say, “I don’t care what you say, I am OK.” “You brought me to this degradation, but that doesn’t mean I really am.” That is YOUR opinion.
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rascal
Oh geeze Shifra. I can completely relate to you. I have told the story about what happened when I was 18 ...the interim copres bc wife declared me posessed....The shame, the feeling of being contaminated, the bewilderment of not knowing how I could have become posessed when I had endeavored to do my very best to serve him and be a blessing.
I couldn`t stay in the house that I rented with these people...I left it to them along with my furniture and such...I couldn`t go home in another state..to the believers whom had so lovingly nurtured and taught me because I now believed that I was spiritual scum and I might inadvertently contaminate one of my loved ones. I couldn`t turn to God because I had become posessed.
How can you continue living when there is no one you can turn to??? I sat at the red river bridge for a long time trying to decide if I ought rid the world of spiritually filthy self. I was so afraid that I would get somebody else contaminated since I didn`t know how it had happened to me.
I almost did. I decided instead, that I would go home to my natural man family...since they were all posessed to and await the physical death that I assumed would follow my spiritual death that I had been promised would happen if I returned to the town where there were no believers.
I thought that was the safest thing because no believers would be in danger.
The depths of despair...the complete loathing of self...the utter separation from God and all whom I loved...it was the deepest and most blackest of despair...a bleakness that defies description. All this (I found out years later) because the bc `s wife was feeling ....y because SHE didn`t get the assignement that SHE had told God that SHE wanted....she was taking it out on the local believers.
SHe destroyed a heart and life :( in a single selfish mean moment
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