This may go on the Doctrinal thread ... but here goes anyway: Folks that do not understand that the Book of Revelation applies to Israel and not to the Church of Grace to which we belong wrongly read into it that we are on Earth for the sun being darkened, the moon being turned to blood, the locusts, all the tribulations ... but the Bible's real clear on the fact that the Christian believer is "saved from the wrath which is to come" ... we'll all be gathered together with Jesus Christ in the air and with him when all this stuff is going on on Earth ... that's not just a Way doctrine ... folks that don't know any better and that are being told that by fear--mongering ministers eager to increase their congregations are the ones that promote that.
NOT being here for that stuff is a great part of what "being saved" means for us ... but yeah, I'm with you ... even if the Communists (or whoever took over), it would not be tapes and boots I would want. I thought the MAL pack was stupid when we did it in residence and I still do. (I have a "hold-over" from that time ... it's still hard for me to let my gas tank get below half full.) I remember a couple of the assistant Corps Coordinators at Emporia being very boastful about how "I wouldn't want to have you with me." I remember sitting in the Emporia Dining Room thinking, as P*t P**w**l talked, "Yeah, we're even ... I wouldn't want to go anywhere with you either." The strong feeling he and D*v* B*d**d promoted is that we were simply not spiritual enough to go with them. I remember D*v* teaching us (or more specifically, I guess, the guys) to get dogs off their trail when they were being chased -- to urinate on a tree and carry a vial of cayenne pepper to apply on top of the urine ... it would mess up the tracking dogs' sense of smell when they traced the scent of you/your urine to the tree and they would lose the scent (I am not kidding ... this happened my first year in-residence). Oh, they were *SO* spiritual ...
Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation. IMHO, I venture to suspect we have about 2-5 years left before our country and the world starts to melt down spiritually. It's already illegal to quote Bible Verses in the Malls or pray in public settings. (Praying in public settings has always seemed odd to me anyway). Our freedom of speech is all but gone and our wonderful congressional body has made sure we think it odd that anyone reads the Bible.
I was talking with a friend just today. For years I have recited, "No man knows the the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power." Actually, the verse reads,
"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth".
Several things to notice here. Jesus Christ was talking to the disciples, in their administration. Had he said, "Sorry guys, but I'm not doin' that for a few thousand years, all hell would have broken loose.
IMHO I don't believe we can know the day or even the year and month. But there are some logical indicators to observe.
1. Genesis 6 says:
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Giants are suppose to refer to people who have committed the unforgivable sin Futher examination of the next verse is indicative that the earth was over run by them. God had to clean house or the red thread would break.
2. Genesis 11:1-4
1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
It was starting up again. The entire habitation of earth were setting themselves up to saturate humanity with men born of the wrong seed. Had God not confounded them with different languages, the earth would have become overflowing with them again. God fixed that.
3. Today we have the internet and communications at the touch of a finger. Our cultures around the world are waxing worse and worse just like it says in II Tim 3:13: Just think! The Muslims we are fighting are all over 30 years old. You think their children will be Buddhist? Or even desire peace with the west?
3But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
There will come a day when no one else in the world will want to hear or allow themselves to hear the Word taught. At that point, there will be no reason for believers to be around. God does know when that time will be. We can know it won't be long. He didn't forbid that as far as I know.
Granted, it may be not be for another 1000 years but then, if it is, it won't matter a whole hexx of a lot, will it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know. Probably someone who objects to my paying attention to advanced classes I took.
I'm use to rejection..... I was married 20 years.
Now for you who love prophets of doom, this should be fun to spin on.
Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation.
The Great Day of Wrath is outlined in Revelation 6.
Are you claiming that's completely separate from any "tribulation" at that time?
Frankly, there's plenty of tribulation nowadays.
IMHO, I venture to suspect we have about 2-5 years left before our country and the world starts to melt down spiritually.
I used to suspect the Book of Revelation's countdown would start in the 1990's.
Since we're still here, I appear to have been wrong.
It's already illegal to quote Bible Verses in the Malls or pray in public settings. (Praying in public settings has always seemed odd to me anyway). Our freedom of speech is all but gone and our wonderful congressional body has made sure we think it odd that anyone reads the Bible.
During my wow year (77/78) my coordinator said she heard from corps that if more people didn't believe then the gathering together would be in the next 5 years.
Certain mind sets live by the code of "one day at a time" well it doesn't work it is part of the co-depended cycle.
AA says it alot when they are trying to explain to a drunk that just because you didn't pour alcohol into your body today life pretty a much can still suck.
Christians use it when a loved one is not getting better or healed from a serious injury. i say God is still on the throne alot.
twi used these type of predictions to motivate evangelism, to give reason to abandon all for the cause. The effect of this type of thinking we will all have to answer to Jesus tomorrow is two-fold one it allows a person to think in a fearful mode.. i better be all I can be for the ministry today to be sure I'M OK and gonna get in , and /or I got nothing to lose the world is going to end so it zaps any motivation to progress into a manner of the future of hope like normal people do.
cult heads do not plan for the future it is written we are here on a temporary amount of time and we had better use it helping the only thing that is truth as dictated by the cult.
i think of wacco jeez Louise those who got out of the fire and tell their story those who still think he was a prophet of God still believe the space ship is coming for them, thoughts of lifestyle or goals and any growth or progress just stop. I believe that is why so many will lay down life for the cause.
easy to say yeah well that is because they were brainwashed by some man who said God spoke to them about the future and predicated drama.. not me I'm a Christian i go by what the book titled the bible says !hello Christian doctrine is really filled with doom and not very pretty quite frightening actually all it needs to stop Gods beloved from seeking a blessed fun prosperous life is one thought of the future being predicated by a crazy man or woman.
they are true the revelations i believe that , i also believe we do not know when they will happen anymore than we know the hour of our death.
if we knew then satan would know, clearly that would stop any person from being born again and reaching for the kingdom.
i tried to begin a thought about God as a crutch this is a huge area i see people USE his words as a crutch to not motivate to wards a better life or education and i warn you plenty of idiots are out in the world today willing and able to take advantage of that type of thinking to their own greedy gain . do we not know this already?
it is fear motivation and it is not Gods will for any of his children to stop living life out of fear of the world ending.
and if it does end just how can any one stop it or help another by frightening another into submission of a mind set?
Jesus wants us to make HIM king because he loves us not because we are afraid of the two headed beasts on their way to town to eat us .
The Great Day of Wrath is outlined in Revelation 6.
Are you claiming that's completely separate from any "tribulation" at that time?
I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.
Frankly, there's plenty of tribulation nowadays.
I used to suspect the Book of Revelation's countdown would start in the 1990's.
Since we're still here, I appear to have been wrong.
Do you have sources for these complaints?
I've witnessed in malls and other public venues. I've been asked to refrain from teaching the Bible in these venues or the security guard would escort me out. But you're right. I should have said public expounding of the scriptures are discouraged and frowned upon.
I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.
I see what you are saying, Mr. Hamm... What the heck is the point of the doomsday predictions if we're all just going to die anyway? So we can worry and be miserable about it until it does or does not happen?
What's the point of that? Life's stressful enough without that hanging over our heads.
If the world was coming to an end I'd probably start smoking again, and eat every pastry that came in sight...
As a teen, pre-TWI, I was very pentecostal in the Jesus movement. I was convinced Jesus was going to arrive any minute. Well, soon to me and soon to God are two different things.
The things that frightned me, the most, were how bad did the tribulation get before we are gathered together with him?
I mean we used to read Revelations all the time, or books like The Late Great Planet Earth, and the blood rising to the horses neck and believers being squashed like grapes through a wine press used to keep me up at night.
(I haven't read them in YEARS - Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.)
I was happy that TWI did not focus on Revelations. I thought I would finally be able to sleep.... Then I went corps .... not much sleep there...
I still believe it is soon, I just do not know what soon is. YID, I see what you are saying.
Not to mention, drink a gallon of good beer, or so..
as quickly as one can, too. Like the pub scene in Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy..
Well, if you had an electronic thumb, we wouldn't have to worry about the end of the world... just Vogon poetry and getting our hands on some extra towels.
Hmm.. yep. I'm starting to think about carrying my towel..
I've thought about sticking out my thumb lately.. a couple of times I've found myself saying, "hey you bunch of yahoos.. I hope you don't plan to just leave me here.."
I think we need the Strange one to make a few comments on this thread..
I see what you are saying, Mr. Hamm... What the heck is the point of the doomsday predictions if we're all just going to die anyway? So we can worry and be miserable about it until it does or does not happen?
What's the point of that? Life's stressful enough without that hanging over our heads.
If the world was coming to an end I'd probably start smoking again, and eat every pastry that came in sight...
Seems to me that land in the middle of West Texas might start looking very good. I would hope and expect God would tell us when.
One of the things I've thought of in light of the book of Revelation is the two witnesses. I could be wrong, but I would expect they would have to have a real good handle on the truth of the Bible in order to be able to be willing to die. Can you imagine reading Revelation and realize you're reading about yourself? They'd better have a handle on the Bible. I think of the years and resources it required for VP to put together JCOPS. They aren't going to wake up one morning and read the Bible and say, "Hey! That could be talking about me!" I would suspect they will have to be aware of some deep stuff in the Bible in order to carry out the Word. Maybe they'll uncover a Bullinger Bible in High School and take a stand on the best they'll be able to figure out. Gee! Maybe they'll plagerize.
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DogLover
This may go on the Doctrinal thread ... but here goes anyway: Folks that do not understand that the Book of Revelation applies to Israel and not to the Church of Grace to which we belong wrongly read into it that we are on Earth for the sun being darkened, the moon being turned to blood, the locusts, all the tribulations ... but the Bible's real clear on the fact that the Christian believer is "saved from the wrath which is to come" ... we'll all be gathered together with Jesus Christ in the air and with him when all this stuff is going on on Earth ... that's not just a Way doctrine ... folks that don't know any better and that are being told that by fear--mongering ministers eager to increase their congregations are the ones that promote that.
NOT being here for that stuff is a great part of what "being saved" means for us ... but yeah, I'm with you ... even if the Communists (or whoever took over), it would not be tapes and boots I would want. I thought the MAL pack was stupid when we did it in residence and I still do. (I have a "hold-over" from that time ... it's still hard for me to let my gas tank get below half full.) I remember a couple of the assistant Corps Coordinators at Emporia being very boastful about how "I wouldn't want to have you with me." I remember sitting in the Emporia Dining Room thinking, as P*t P**w**l talked, "Yeah, we're even ... I wouldn't want to go anywhere with you either." The strong feeling he and D*v* B*d**d promoted is that we were simply not spiritual enough to go with them. I remember D*v* teaching us (or more specifically, I guess, the guys) to get dogs off their trail when they were being chased -- to urinate on a tree and carry a vial of cayenne pepper to apply on top of the urine ... it would mess up the tracking dogs' sense of smell when they traced the scent of you/your urine to the tree and they would lose the scent (I am not kidding ... this happened my first year in-residence). Oh, they were *SO* spiritual ...
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YID
Doglover,
Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation. IMHO, I venture to suspect we have about 2-5 years left before our country and the world starts to melt down spiritually. It's already illegal to quote Bible Verses in the Malls or pray in public settings. (Praying in public settings has always seemed odd to me anyway). Our freedom of speech is all but gone and our wonderful congressional body has made sure we think it odd that anyone reads the Bible.
I was talking with a friend just today. For years I have recited, "No man knows the the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power." Actually, the verse reads,
"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth".
Several things to notice here. Jesus Christ was talking to the disciples, in their administration. Had he said, "Sorry guys, but I'm not doin' that for a few thousand years, all hell would have broken loose.
IMHO I don't believe we can know the day or even the year and month. But there are some logical indicators to observe.
1. Genesis 6 says:
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Giants are suppose to refer to people who have committed the unforgivable sin Futher examination of the next verse is indicative that the earth was over run by them. God had to clean house or the red thread would break.
2. Genesis 11:1-4
1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
It was starting up again. The entire habitation of earth were setting themselves up to saturate humanity with men born of the wrong seed. Had God not confounded them with different languages, the earth would have become overflowing with them again. God fixed that.
3. Today we have the internet and communications at the touch of a finger. Our cultures around the world are waxing worse and worse just like it says in II Tim 3:13: Just think! The Muslims we are fighting are all over 30 years old. You think their children will be Buddhist? Or even desire peace with the west?
3But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
There will come a day when no one else in the world will want to hear or allow themselves to hear the Word taught. At that point, there will be no reason for believers to be around. God does know when that time will be. We can know it won't be long. He didn't forbid that as far as I know.
Granted, it may be not be for another 1000 years but then, if it is, it won't matter a whole hexx of a lot, will it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know. Probably someone who objects to my paying attention to advanced classes I took.
I'm use to rejection..... I was married 20 years.
Now for you who love prophets of doom, this should be fun to spin on.
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Deciderator
Prophets of Doom ---- good name for a band
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Deciderator
So the God of all comfort will not comfort us in all our tribulation?
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WordWolf
The Great Day of Wrath is outlined in Revelation 6.
Are you claiming that's completely separate from any "tribulation" at that time?
Frankly, there's plenty of tribulation nowadays.
I used to suspect the Book of Revelation's countdown would start in the 1990's.Since we're still here, I appear to have been wrong.
Do you have sources for these complaints?
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johniam
During my wow year (77/78) my coordinator said she heard from corps that if more people didn't believe then the gathering together would be in the next 5 years.
Oops.
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pond
Certain mind sets live by the code of "one day at a time" well it doesn't work it is part of the co-depended cycle.
AA says it alot when they are trying to explain to a drunk that just because you didn't pour alcohol into your body today life pretty a much can still suck.
Christians use it when a loved one is not getting better or healed from a serious injury. i say God is still on the throne alot.
twi used these type of predictions to motivate evangelism, to give reason to abandon all for the cause. The effect of this type of thinking we will all have to answer to Jesus tomorrow is two-fold one it allows a person to think in a fearful mode.. i better be all I can be for the ministry today to be sure I'M OK and gonna get in , and /or I got nothing to lose the world is going to end so it zaps any motivation to progress into a manner of the future of hope like normal people do.
cult heads do not plan for the future it is written we are here on a temporary amount of time and we had better use it helping the only thing that is truth as dictated by the cult.
i think of wacco jeez Louise those who got out of the fire and tell their story those who still think he was a prophet of God still believe the space ship is coming for them, thoughts of lifestyle or goals and any growth or progress just stop. I believe that is why so many will lay down life for the cause.
easy to say yeah well that is because they were brainwashed by some man who said God spoke to them about the future and predicated drama.. not me I'm a Christian i go by what the book titled the bible says !hello Christian doctrine is really filled with doom and not very pretty quite frightening actually all it needs to stop Gods beloved from seeking a blessed fun prosperous life is one thought of the future being predicated by a crazy man or woman.
they are true the revelations i believe that , i also believe we do not know when they will happen anymore than we know the hour of our death.
if we knew then satan would know, clearly that would stop any person from being born again and reaching for the kingdom.
i tried to begin a thought about God as a crutch this is a huge area i see people USE his words as a crutch to not motivate to wards a better life or education and i warn you plenty of idiots are out in the world today willing and able to take advantage of that type of thinking to their own greedy gain . do we not know this already?
it is fear motivation and it is not Gods will for any of his children to stop living life out of fear of the world ending.
and if it does end just how can any one stop it or help another by frightening another into submission of a mind set?
Jesus wants us to make HIM king because he loves us not because we are afraid of the two headed beasts on their way to town to eat us .
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YID
We wouldn't need comfort in all our tribulations if we didn't have tribulations.
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YID
I've witnessed in malls and other public venues. I've been asked to refrain from teaching the Bible in these venues or the security guard would escort me out. But you're right. I should have said public expounding of the scriptures are discouraged and frowned upon.
I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.
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Ham
It would be a first for me..
I wasn't looking for the doctrinal intricacies, but if people want to discuss them, that's OK with me.
my first thought about this though, was.. suppose a person really DOES have the inside skinny on a disaster of "biblical proportions"?
Where to go? Besides going to live on the moon, or drilling a dwelling several miles below earth's surface.. there aren't exactly very many options..
It's just not very logical.
Now if an organization can SELL mitigation for such an event.. maybe we're on to something..
"Because of our GREAT believing and faithfulness, the earth failed to fall off of it's axis, today.."
:)
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JavaJane
I see what you are saying, Mr. Hamm... What the heck is the point of the doomsday predictions if we're all just going to die anyway? So we can worry and be miserable about it until it does or does not happen?
What's the point of that? Life's stressful enough without that hanging over our heads.
If the world was coming to an end I'd probably start smoking again, and eat every pastry that came in sight...
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Ham
Not to mention, drink a gallon of good beer, or so..
as quickly as one can, too. Like the pub scene in Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy..
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Dot Matrix
As a teen, pre-TWI, I was very pentecostal in the Jesus movement. I was convinced Jesus was going to arrive any minute. Well, soon to me and soon to God are two different things.
The things that frightned me, the most, were how bad did the tribulation get before we are gathered together with him?
I mean we used to read Revelations all the time, or books like The Late Great Planet Earth, and the blood rising to the horses neck and believers being squashed like grapes through a wine press used to keep me up at night.
(I haven't read them in YEARS - Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.)
I was happy that TWI did not focus on Revelations. I thought I would finally be able to sleep.... Then I went corps .... not much sleep there...
I still believe it is soon, I just do not know what soon is. YID, I see what you are saying.
YID - for you
Look at this fome another thread:
Start Screaming
http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/cfr_p...xico_canada.htm
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/sover...overeignty.html
http://altnews.com.au/drop/node/7688
http://usa.tigblog.org/category/108
http://www.richardsyrett.com/pastshow.htm
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JavaJane
Well, if you had an electronic thumb, we wouldn't have to worry about the end of the world... just Vogon poetry and getting our hands on some extra towels.
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Ham
Hmm.. yep. I'm starting to think about carrying my towel..
I've thought about sticking out my thumb lately.. a couple of times I've found myself saying, "hey you bunch of yahoos.. I hope you don't plan to just leave me here.."
I think we need the Strange one to make a few comments on this thread..
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Ham
Coincidence of a lifetime.. my sweetie just came back from the video store.. take a guess what movie she chose for me..
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JavaJane
Oh! Let me guess!!
The Godfather?
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railroader II
Here's food for thought.....
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/PATRIOTICPAGES.HTML
Read and ponder where we are really going today.....
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YID
Seems to me that land in the middle of West Texas might start looking very good. I would hope and expect God would tell us when.
One of the things I've thought of in light of the book of Revelation is the two witnesses. I could be wrong, but I would expect they would have to have a real good handle on the truth of the Bible in order to be able to be willing to die. Can you imagine reading Revelation and realize you're reading about yourself? They'd better have a handle on the Bible. I think of the years and resources it required for VP to put together JCOPS. They aren't going to wake up one morning and read the Bible and say, "Hey! That could be talking about me!" I would suspect they will have to be aware of some deep stuff in the Bible in order to carry out the Word. Maybe they'll uncover a Bullinger Bible in High School and take a stand on the best they'll be able to figure out. Gee! Maybe they'll plagerize.
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def59
Welcome to the 20-reply club.
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Ham
well, thanks.. I think.
:)
This one actually had 74 replies..
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...olocaust+denial
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Bramble
I put doomsday predictions in the same category as hellfire--an attempt to sway peoples beliefs by scare tactics.
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Bramble
Thought you might want to see some non doomsday thoughts that are floating around pagan groups I frequent.
Recent message from the Hopi Elders:
You have been telling the people that this is the
Eleventh Hour,
now you must go back and tell the people that this is the
Hour. And there are things to be considered...
Where are you living?
What are you doing?
What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?
Know your garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.
Create your community.
Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader.
This could be a good time! There is a river flowing now very fast. It is
so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will
try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart
and will suffer greatly.
Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the
shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and
our heads above the water.
See who is in there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we
are to take nothing personally. Least of all, ourselves. For the moment
that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.
The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves!
Banish the word struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary. All
that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.
We are the ones we've been waiting for.
Oraibi, Arizona
Hopi Nation.
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Ham
Interesting. Kind of what I think sometimes.. it's the end of the world, depending on your point of view.
Sometimes I have to ask myself, "what is the worst that can happen here.." and the actual consequences aren't really THAT bad..
but I think to others, trapped in some kind of illusion of riches or materialism, what's coming might be a nightmare..
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