I do remember, though, that in the early 1970s, some of us who were on the class crew(Stringing chairs, running the tape recorder, etc.) wanted to get together and listen to the class tapes in an unofficial setting.
We were quickly informed that the tapes were NEVER, EVER to be listened to outside of an official class setting.
Knowing what I do now about sales presentations, I understand the logic.
Outside of its showcase setting it might have been a bit more transparent.
Couldn't have anybody listening to it without the proper emotional hype, dontcha know!
what I understand is during FOG years folks left because Craig demanded allegiance from leadership and other problems..
why did people out on the field take classes that didnt belong to them? I have talked to many who have bootlegged copies of Adv.Class and are proud of it..
I don't understand how they justify taking these classes liked they owned them.
why didn't leadership do thier own classes...
I am just trying to understand what happened during this time.
I think many people thought that in a sense they did own them all though not technically ,having given years of time and lots of money to promote these classes. They also felt that the Way had breached it's contract with them as they were promised to be able to repeat them whenever they wanted to. Since they were not honoring their agreement they did not feel any duty to honor theirs to not duplicate them.
I know some folks who kept a copy of the 12 sessions of PFAL and have made digital copies that they make available to selected individuals. They know its illegal so they are very cagey about who gets a copy. I think their rationalization is that since TWI is no longer running the PFAL class, then there should be no copyright problem with them sharing the Word of God as it hadn't been known since the 1st century.
I know for some folks it was a little less logical. Some just didn't want to feel like they had lost "everything" so they clung to the one thing that was universal to all PFAL. That need to hang on to the past does fade with time. But for some the trauma of having TWI ripped away from them by some unfeeling MOG was just to tough to handle without "something" to take with them. By "stealing" the class they felt that they were striking back for having the twigs, the fellowships etc stolen from them.
I remember a couple of guys putting on trench coats, sneaking off, renting a hotel room for a weekend, taking all of vic's audio materials they could lay their hands on, a high speed tape duplicater, a kazillion blank cassettes, and running off as many copies as they possibly could.
This was actually PRETTY close to the truth.. maybe minus the trench coats.
the justification was that they didn't want ole vic's material to get "buried". One of the guys said they went to the hotel so they could do this a little more clandestinely, they were afraid somebody would catch them if they did it at home.. no joke.
I think their rationalization is that since TWI is no longer running the PFAL class, then there should be no copyright problem with them sharing the Word of God as it hadn't been known since the 1st century.
sudo
That jibes with what I remember of the fog years.
Remember the mindset of the twi innie- which is true to this very day:
"We are the only ones with The Truth in all the world. Other Christians just can't keep up,
and don't have what we need."
Therefore, if WE don't have it, NOBODY does. With that mindset, it's vitally important we don't
lose what WE have, because we're "it." There IS nobody else.
It's SUCH an ugly shock to meet other Christians and find resources so easy-to-get
outside of twi. Barnes & Noble along either carries or can order almost the entire
"research library" of an innie. (Everything not put out by twi itself.)
Christian bookstores can do more than that, and often have similar books alongside.
Not to mention books on subjects twi knows NOTHING on, like dreams.
Finally, don't forget that God requires a class to convey his vital doctrine.
I do remember, though, that in the early 1970s, some of us who were on the class crew(Stringing chairs, running the tape recorder, etc.) wanted to get together and listen to the class tapes in an unofficial setting.
We were quickly informed that the tapes were NEVER, EVER to be listened to outside of an official class setting.
Knowing what I do now about sales presentations, I understand the logic.
Outside of its showcase setting it might have been a bit more transparent.
Couldn't have anybody listening to it without the proper emotional hype, dontcha know!
I took PFAL three times and there was no hype.
We walked in, there was a little small talk and then we all sat down and they turned on the tv
Stealing is stealing no matter what is being taken.
I've always wondered if there is a copy of PFAL at the Library of Congress or wherever copies of copyrighted material is kept.
I bet it can be heard free of charge if one just knows where to go.
It is my understanding that copies of all copyrighted books and films are in the Library of Congress. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I did any learning on the subject.
I can understand, but not condone someone copying a class to help them study later.
I don't much like copying CDs and don't do the file-sharing thing.
(I took PFAL near as I can guess between 1988 and 1991. One class had already started and when I showed up for it, they said I needed to be at the beginning and couldn't sit in. This one was done up as sort of an "event," I guess with decorations in the house and quite a buffet laid out during breaks)
One thing that has been in my head is something my first twig coordinator said once when we were talking about research. He said we "re - search" because everything has been worked at one time or another by somebody.
I don't know who first put "Formed and Made and Created / Body and Soul and Spirit" together, I'm just glad to know it.
Same with the Mystery.
It wouldn't surprise me to find someone had put together a "history of the mystery" before Chris Geer did, and may even have done a better job, but I sure am glad to have Geer's tapes and having it written out in Future Considerations.
Same with Bible Kinds of Faith.
There are other things I could name, but that's enough to make the point....
Here's a thought, though not necessarily a brilliant one. Probably I'm just rationalizing.
Let me begin by saying that I didn't have and therefore didn't keep copies of anything other than the books which we had purchased. We didn't leave until about 10 years post-fog. However, I can understand someone in that time frame keeping tapes. I don't consider myself eligible to judge that action.
Y'see, we were PROMISED on that sacred green card, that after we had paid for and completed each PFAL class the first time, we could sit through that class as many times thereafter as we liked, free of charge. Then the great and mighty MOGFODAT declares these folks are no longer permitted that "privilege" so an individual who has just completed running a PFAL thinks, "Well, heck, I'll just keep the ones I've got and run it for grads free, and maybe others, too" I could understand that.
I don't think people "in the field" who had faithfully stood with TWI and sacrificed and spent every vacation they ever took for YEARS going to Ohio or Rome City or Gunnison or wherever to serve, usually working their rear ends off performing some menial task, donated money for gifts for the Powers that Were, FELT like they were betrayed, THEY WERE betrayed. In many ways. And I think at that point, they couldn't necessarily see that they weren't serving God they were serving a pseudo-godly bunch of people who had only their own best interests at heart, not the people they "led,"and especially at that point, headed by a man who seemed to think he himself was the second coming of Christ.
My husband was University of Life, which was not cheap. He only had one set of class tapes, which he had purchased and which were his to keep. But when he was kicked out of U of L for the heinous sin of being in debt, at least partly because of my diabetes, he was commanded to send the tape set back. Were they going to send him back his money? Of course not.
We kept them anyway. He had been told when he signed up for U of L and paid for the first class that the tapes were his to keep. He told me after a while, after the pain wore off and the healing began, that I could listen to them or do with them as I wished.
I didn't listen to them, not out of any sense of it being wrong, but because I couldn't bear to hear VPW's voice. I threw them out a few years ago, to make room in my closet for something more important.
Here's a thought, though not necessarily a brilliant one. Probably I'm just rationalizing.
Let me begin by saying that I didn't have and therefore didn't keep copies of anything other than the books which we had purchased. We didn't leave until about 10 years post-fog. However, I can understand someone in that time frame keeping tapes. I don't consider myself eligible to judge that action.
Y'see, we were PROMISED on that sacred green card, that after we had paid for and completed each PFAL class the first time, we could sit through that class as many times thereafter as we liked, free of charge. Then the great and mighty MOGFODAT declares these folks are no longer permitted that "privilege" so an individual who has just completed running a PFAL thinks, "Well, heck, I'll just keep the ones I've got and run it for grads free, and maybe others, too" I could understand that.
I'm not sure if that qualifies as breach of a verbal contract, but we were ALL told that- I know I was, and so was everyone in my neighborhood.
I don't think people "in the field" who had faithfully stood with TWI and sacrificed and spent every vacation they ever took for YEARS going to Ohio or Rome City or Gunnison or wherever to serve, usually working their rear ends off performing some menial task, donated money for gifts for the Powers that Were, FELT like they were betrayed, THEY WERE betrayed. In many ways. And I think at that point, they couldn't necessarily see that they weren't serving God they were serving a pseudo-godly bunch of people who had only their own best interests at heart, not the people they "led,"and especially at that point, headed by a man who seemed to think he himself was the second coming of Christ.
My husband was University of Life, which was not cheap. He only had one set of class tapes, which he had purchased and which were his to keep. But when he was kicked out of U of L for the heinous sin of being in debt, at least partly because of my diabetes, he was commanded to send the tape set back. Were they going to send him back his money? Of course not.
We kept them anyway. He had been told when he signed up for U of L and paid for the first class that the tapes were his to keep. He told me after a while, after the pain wore off and the healing began, that I could listen to them or do with them as I wished.
I didn't listen to them, not out of any sense of it being wrong, but because I couldn't bear to hear VPW's voice. I threw them out a few years ago, to make room in my closet for something more important.
Pond,WW,WG.EX.Mr.H ,and Deciderator. Thanks for your helpful responses..You concluded some of my own inclinations..
It must of been pure mahem in some area's because I know people left in herds and also in some groups....trying to stick together without the internet must have hard...you know how detailed we became in communicating.
I am not sure what I would have if there was no one around..
The politics of TWI have always been a simmering boiling pot of hypocrisy. They're still more concerened about everybody else's underhanded machinations other than their own.
I remember leadership asking people if they could teach the class if they had to. I think it was coming down to times of desperation for some when they thought about separating from the organization. I remember being approached to type the PFAL class so that it wouldn't be "lost". Thinking back on it now, it seems weird to think our whole spiritual life was based on the knowledge in some class. Talk about putting God in a box.
The politics of TWI have always been a simmering boiling pot of hypocrisy. They're still more concerened about everybody else's underhanded machinations other than their own.
Well, they must be ice skating in heII tonight WW, cuz I do too.
Feel the love, the sno-cone love!
WG - if there's a heaven and if it allows for replays, maybe you'll get to relive the U of L incident again and use one of my favorite lines - "they're right here. Come and get 'em." (insert sound of lonely breezes blowing through the treeses as a solitary cricket chirps in the distance...)
This is a verrrrry innerestin' topic. I have heard that any number of tapes and videos quietly made their way off the Way's grounds when no one was looking. Some of those items have surfaced, like music recordings, teachings, classes, you name it.
Stealing is stealing, as already stated. But - butt - buuuut, if a person had waited around long enough and been at the right place at the right time, a lot of that stuff could have been scarfed up from the dumpsters anyway. Some things were getting tossed out by the ever zealous Douloses of Dumbdom. Other things I know were stored away in that big building, the warehouse thing where the offices were, the "new' place they built.
Nobody even knew where some stuff was if you asked.
As for peop's on the field - man, those were tough times. Oh I know some twigs were dancing in the meadows and boiling sweet potatoes and rhubarb and rubbing melons on their heads they were so happy but others weren't quite so fortunate. So some people took what they could get their hands on or had their hands on, assuming that the ham fisted Neanderthals in charge were just a breath away from stomping through and breaking anything close to their hearts and worth keeping.
In a way it's the lesser of two evils. In many cases those who bore the Stamp of the BOT's and were promoted up from the Second Tier to "Leadership" positions to fill the many vacancies that appeared were fine with backing off and letting people go their own way. Challenged, they had all the backbone of a prawn, maybe less, but it was probably for the better and saved everyone the extreme ugliness that could have developed. It was ugly enough as it was.
I just remembered that at least for the last class I took there was someone from the Limb there standing by the VCR like one-a the Pope's Swiss Guards.
It's only a matter of time before Snoop Dog or P-Diddy or someone samples PFAL and then it's game on!
D-Derator, now that there's portable Terrabyte drives I think you're right. I think someone's already posted here at one time there were audio CD's of PFAL around. That could be totally wrong, but I could sw'ar it was stated. Someone might remember. It's probably a done-deal by now. CD's in nice little cases, stamped "The Way of Tangiers" or something, with an insert card stating "If you're blessed by this CD, let us know! All donations are tax deductible!"
I think the topic speaks to how people felt about "the Class" and how they viewed what the Way was, to them. The sense of ownership, or "being" "the ministry".
If some people felt like the whole sausage was going in the grinder they probably felt like they were doing a service to the future generations of the world by salvaging what was left of the essence of a Good Thing. Not all would agree on the goodness of the Thing salvaged, but think about it - while the Way was fine with redefining and violating any agreement based on their curent "Present Truth" they set the example for "their people".
If anyone was watching and following they would have concluded that it was fine to do anything you wanted, change the rules as you go to suit whatever bee was buzzing in your bonnet that day. Don't explain anything, explanations are for those who don't have the guts to prevail.
Now, the VPster himself would surely have taken umbrage at anyone strolling through the grounds and swiping a brick or a tree, or grabbing a duck off the pond for old times sake so I doubt he would have accepted copying PFAL or "liberating" a set or two of videos, regardless of the motivation.
On the other hand, he himself concluded that the best way to deal with a system that didn't suit your needs or recognize your vision was to give it a good attitude adjustment with a stiff 2X4 and "make your own". Take what you need and leave the rest.
What to do what to do - "ethics"...be still O throbbing spleen. It's a war out there, Dear.
When I first took the class, it was presented on cassette for classes of 7 or less and on reel- to- reel film for more.
Geeze! Louise!---Those projectors were a real pain in the butt.
If the film broke, you had to splice it right then and there.
And, they were noisy.
The tapes or film cans had to be stored in a very "secure" location per HQ.
They were never to be left at the class location which was usually a VFW or Amer. Legion hall or such, even though the rest of the eqt. could be.
Then along came those clunky Beta machines that top loaded.(playback only)
I remember shopping for a replacement for my jalopy that bit the dust and passing up some sweet deals because they didn't have enough trunk space for all the crud we had to haul.
Then, at one point, HQ let branch and twig leaders in on a special one time bulk purchase they were going to make on Beta players(pre-VCR days)
They were ONLY $800 dollars!!!!
And you thought they only sold classes and books!!!
D-Derator, now that there's portable Terrabyte drives I think you're right. I think someone's already posted here at one time there were audio CD's of PFAL around. That could be totally wrong, but I could sw'ar it was stated. Someone might remember. It's probably a done-deal by now. CD's in nice little cases, stamped "The Way of Tangiers" or something, with an insert card stating "If you're blessed by this CD, let us know! All donations are tax deductible!"
I think the topic speaks to how people felt about "the Class" and how they viewed what the Way was, to them. The sense of ownership, or "being" "the ministry".
If some people felt like the whole sausage was going in the grinder they probably felt like they were doing a service to the future generations of the world by salvaging what was left of the essence of a Good Thing. Not all would agree on the goodness of the Thing salvaged, but think about it - while the Way was fine with redefining and violating any agreement based on their curent "Present Truth" they set the example for "their people".
If anyone was watching and following they would have concluded that it was fine to do anything you wanted, change the rules as you go to suit whatever bee was buzzing in your bonnet that day. Don't explain anything, explanations are for those who don't have the guts to prevail.
Now, the VPster himself would surely have taken umbrage at anyone strolling through the grounds and swiping a brick or a tree, or grabbing a duck off the pond for old times sake so I doubt he would have accepted copying PFAL or "liberating" a set or two of videos, regardless of the motivation.
On the other hand, he himself concluded that the best way to deal with a system that didn't suit your needs or recognize your vision was to give it a good attitude adjustment with a stiff 2X4 and "make your own". Take what you need and leave the rest.
What to do what to do - "ethics"...be still O throbbing spleen. It's a war out there, Dear.
ETHICS????? your SAID ethics, didnt you bring up ethics? HAHA i thought you said ethics. oh no really really lets not go there socks .
Perhaps to some people it was a question of legal right versus moral right.
We stayed in, and have moved on. If someone offered me PFAL as "God's Word on a silver platter" today I would decline. I already have that. And I don't like the strings attached to the platter. But had we left and had we had a set of tapes, uh, I really don't know what we would have done. I would have preferred driving to HQ and finding His Majesty and inserting them retrograde (a medical term but you get the picture I'm sure.)
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waysider
Sorry, I was not around for the fog years.
I do remember, though, that in the early 1970s, some of us who were on the class crew(Stringing chairs, running the tape recorder, etc.) wanted to get together and listen to the class tapes in an unofficial setting.
We were quickly informed that the tapes were NEVER, EVER to be listened to outside of an official class setting.
Knowing what I do now about sales presentations, I understand the logic.
Outside of its showcase setting it might have been a bit more transparent.
Couldn't have anybody listening to it without the proper emotional hype, dontcha know!
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WhiteDove
I think many people thought that in a sense they did own them all though not technically ,having given years of time and lots of money to promote these classes. They also felt that the Way had breached it's contract with them as they were promised to be able to repeat them whenever they wanted to. Since they were not honoring their agreement they did not feel any duty to honor theirs to not duplicate them.
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Sudo
Likeaneagle,
I know some folks who kept a copy of the 12 sessions of PFAL and have made digital copies that they make available to selected individuals. They know its illegal so they are very cagey about who gets a copy. I think their rationalization is that since TWI is no longer running the PFAL class, then there should be no copyright problem with them sharing the Word of God as it hadn't been known since the 1st century.
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Eyesopen
I know for some folks it was a little less logical. Some just didn't want to feel like they had lost "everything" so they clung to the one thing that was universal to all PFAL. That need to hang on to the past does fade with time. But for some the trauma of having TWI ripped away from them by some unfeeling MOG was just to tough to handle without "something" to take with them. By "stealing" the class they felt that they were striking back for having the twigs, the fellowships etc stolen from them.
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excathedra
yeah kinda what white dove said (i think, not trying to put words in your post)
probably thought they were doing the will of god
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Oakspear
I would guess that some thought that they were the true spiritual successors to Wierwille & PFAL and that Martindale was illegitimate.
Kind of ironic since Wierwille stole the class in the first place
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Ham
I remember a couple of guys putting on trench coats, sneaking off, renting a hotel room for a weekend, taking all of vic's audio materials they could lay their hands on, a high speed tape duplicater, a kazillion blank cassettes, and running off as many copies as they possibly could.
This was actually PRETTY close to the truth.. maybe minus the trench coats.
the justification was that they didn't want ole vic's material to get "buried". One of the guys said they went to the hotel so they could do this a little more clandestinely, they were afraid somebody would catch them if they did it at home.. no joke.
Sounded kinda nuts to me..
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WordWolf
That jibes with what I remember of the fog years.
Remember the mindset of the twi innie- which is true to this very day:
"We are the only ones with The Truth in all the world. Other Christians just can't keep up,
and don't have what we need."
Therefore, if WE don't have it, NOBODY does. With that mindset, it's vitally important we don't
lose what WE have, because we're "it." There IS nobody else.
It's SUCH an ugly shock to meet other Christians and find resources so easy-to-get
outside of twi. Barnes & Noble along either carries or can order almost the entire
"research library" of an innie. (Everything not put out by twi itself.)
Christian bookstores can do more than that, and often have similar books alongside.
Not to mention books on subjects twi knows NOTHING on, like dreams.
Finally, don't forget that God requires a class to convey his vital doctrine.
At least in the twi paradigm.
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Deciderator
I took PFAL three times and there was no hype.
We walked in, there was a little small talk and then we all sat down and they turned on the tv
Stealing is stealing no matter what is being taken.
I've always wondered if there is a copy of PFAL at the Library of Congress or wherever copies of copyrighted material is kept.
I bet it can be heard free of charge if one just knows where to go.
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WordWolf
I've heard that's true for a number of people who took it in the 70s.
In the 80s, that was the exception rather than the rule. EVERYBODY I knew was sold on
pfal- and dedicated to selling OTHER people on taking it.
Legally, that is true. Theft is theft, regardless of the motivation, mind-set and so on.I agree with you entirely on that.
Mind you, there's some people who insist-or at least have insisted in the past-
that plagiarism in pfal was perfectly acceptable since God wanted vpw to break the law
and do so. You've missed some interesting discussions on that one, but they're still
around if you want to dig. (I wouldn't, but hey, you might be curious.)
The MINDSET of the people who copied those classes was certainly not to steal or
to defraud. That does not excuse copyright violations, but it may mitigate somewhat-
in court, it would affect the amount recovered in a lawsuit, in the court of public opinion,
they were trying to bless people and do what God wanted. You decide if that makes any
difference in viewing how they performed in breaking the law.
(I can argue that it should, and I can argue that it shouldn't.)
Either way, it is a crime.
My understanding is that twi would have to have sent-or at least have released- a copy of
the entire class to the Library of Congress.
While it's possible vpw may have sent a copy of the Orange Book and/or the White Book
to them for inclusion, for him to have even allowed a set of the tapes to end up there strikes
me as completely opposite to his policies concerning the tapes-
as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
Whether that was because only a "proper" sitting of the class is sufficient to reap the benefits,
or because he wanted their money, that's open to opinion.
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Deciderator
It is my understanding that copies of all copyrighted books and films are in the Library of Congress. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I did any learning on the subject.
I can understand, but not condone someone copying a class to help them study later.
I don't much like copying CDs and don't do the file-sharing thing.
(I took PFAL near as I can guess between 1988 and 1991. One class had already started and when I showed up for it, they said I needed to be at the beginning and couldn't sit in. This one was done up as sort of an "event," I guess with decorations in the house and quite a buffet laid out during breaks)
One thing that has been in my head is something my first twig coordinator said once when we were talking about research. He said we "re - search" because everything has been worked at one time or another by somebody.
I don't know who first put "Formed and Made and Created / Body and Soul and Spirit" together, I'm just glad to know it.
Same with the Mystery.
It wouldn't surprise me to find someone had put together a "history of the mystery" before Chris Geer did, and may even have done a better job, but I sure am glad to have Geer's tapes and having it written out in Future Considerations.
Same with Bible Kinds of Faith.
There are other things I could name, but that's enough to make the point....
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Watered Garden
Here's a thought, though not necessarily a brilliant one. Probably I'm just rationalizing.
Let me begin by saying that I didn't have and therefore didn't keep copies of anything other than the books which we had purchased. We didn't leave until about 10 years post-fog. However, I can understand someone in that time frame keeping tapes. I don't consider myself eligible to judge that action.
Y'see, we were PROMISED on that sacred green card, that after we had paid for and completed each PFAL class the first time, we could sit through that class as many times thereafter as we liked, free of charge. Then the great and mighty MOGFODAT declares these folks are no longer permitted that "privilege" so an individual who has just completed running a PFAL thinks, "Well, heck, I'll just keep the ones I've got and run it for grads free, and maybe others, too" I could understand that.
I don't think people "in the field" who had faithfully stood with TWI and sacrificed and spent every vacation they ever took for YEARS going to Ohio or Rome City or Gunnison or wherever to serve, usually working their rear ends off performing some menial task, donated money for gifts for the Powers that Were, FELT like they were betrayed, THEY WERE betrayed. In many ways. And I think at that point, they couldn't necessarily see that they weren't serving God they were serving a pseudo-godly bunch of people who had only their own best interests at heart, not the people they "led,"and especially at that point, headed by a man who seemed to think he himself was the second coming of Christ.
My husband was University of Life, which was not cheap. He only had one set of class tapes, which he had purchased and which were his to keep. But when he was kicked out of U of L for the heinous sin of being in debt, at least partly because of my diabetes, he was commanded to send the tape set back. Were they going to send him back his money? Of course not.
We kept them anyway. He had been told when he signed up for U of L and paid for the first class that the tapes were his to keep. He told me after a while, after the pain wore off and the healing began, that I could listen to them or do with them as I wished.
I didn't listen to them, not out of any sense of it being wrong, but because I couldn't bear to hear VPW's voice. I threw them out a few years ago, to make room in my closet for something more important.
WG
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WordWolf
I'm not sure if that qualifies as breach of a verbal contract, but we were ALL told that- I know I was, and so was everyone in my neighborhood.
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pond
When i was marked and avoided i cant believe it but i thought oh no i cant take the class anymore.
i cant believe it i waas so sad that my children not even born and babies at the time wouldnt be able to take the class.
those not there do not realaize what a hold that class had on our life/
wtf
i really would but my money on others feeling like i did we needed the class to live to be ok to have God love us.
it wouldnt have been stealing it would hae been saving peoples life you know!
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likeaneagle
Pond,WW,WG.EX.Mr.H
,and Deciderator. Thanks for your helpful responses..You concluded some of my own inclinations..
It must of been pure mahem in some area's because I know people left in herds and also in some groups....trying to stick together without the internet must have hard...you know how detailed we became in communicating.
I am not sure what I would have if there was no one around..
well...enuf said, I just had to ask..
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What The Hey
The politics of TWI have always been a simmering boiling pot of hypocrisy. They're still more concerened about everybody else's underhanded machinations other than their own.
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Nottawayfer
I remember leadership asking people if they could teach the class if they had to. I think it was coming down to times of desperation for some when they thought about separating from the organization. I remember being approached to type the PFAL class so that it wouldn't be "lost". Thinking back on it now, it seems weird to think our whole spiritual life was based on the knowledge in some class. Talk about putting God in a box.
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WordWolf
(I've been looking forward to saying this...)
I agree with WTH.
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socks
Well, they must be ice skating in heII tonight WW, cuz I do too.
Feel the love, the sno-cone love!
WG - if there's a heaven and if it allows for replays, maybe you'll get to relive the U of L incident again and use one of my favorite lines - "they're right here. Come and get 'em." (insert sound of lonely breezes blowing through the treeses as a solitary cricket chirps in the distance...)
This is a verrrrry innerestin' topic. I have heard that any number of tapes and videos quietly made their way off the Way's grounds when no one was looking. Some of those items have surfaced, like music recordings, teachings, classes, you name it.
Stealing is stealing, as already stated. But - butt - buuuut, if a person had waited around long enough and been at the right place at the right time, a lot of that stuff could have been scarfed up from the dumpsters anyway. Some things were getting tossed out by the ever zealous Douloses of Dumbdom. Other things I know were stored away in that big building, the warehouse thing where the offices were, the "new' place they built.
Nobody even knew where some stuff was if you asked.
As for peop's on the field - man, those were tough times. Oh I know some twigs were dancing in the meadows and boiling sweet potatoes and rhubarb and rubbing melons on their heads they were so happy but others weren't quite so fortunate. So some people took what they could get their hands on or had their hands on, assuming that the ham fisted Neanderthals in charge were just a breath away from stomping through and breaking anything close to their hearts and worth keeping.
In a way it's the lesser of two evils. In many cases those who bore the Stamp of the BOT's and were promoted up from the Second Tier to "Leadership" positions to fill the many vacancies that appeared were fine with backing off and letting people go their own way. Challenged, they had all the backbone of a prawn, maybe less, but it was probably for the better and saved everyone the extreme ugliness that could have developed. It was ugly enough as it was.
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Deciderator
I just remembered that at least for the last class I took there was someone from the Limb there standing by the VCR like one-a the Pope's Swiss Guards.
It's only a matter of time before Snoop Dog or P-Diddy or someone samples PFAL and then it's game on!
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socks
D-Derator, now that there's portable Terrabyte drives I think you're right. I think someone's already posted here at one time there were audio CD's of PFAL around. That could be totally wrong, but I could sw'ar it was stated. Someone might remember. It's probably a done-deal by now. CD's in nice little cases, stamped "The Way of Tangiers" or something, with an insert card stating "If you're blessed by this CD, let us know! All donations are tax deductible!"
I think the topic speaks to how people felt about "the Class" and how they viewed what the Way was, to them. The sense of ownership, or "being" "the ministry".
If some people felt like the whole sausage was going in the grinder they probably felt like they were doing a service to the future generations of the world by salvaging what was left of the essence of a Good Thing. Not all would agree on the goodness of the Thing salvaged, but think about it - while the Way was fine with redefining and violating any agreement based on their curent "Present Truth" they set the example for "their people".
If anyone was watching and following they would have concluded that it was fine to do anything you wanted, change the rules as you go to suit whatever bee was buzzing in your bonnet that day. Don't explain anything, explanations are for those who don't have the guts to prevail.
Now, the VPster himself would surely have taken umbrage at anyone strolling through the grounds and swiping a brick or a tree, or grabbing a duck off the pond for old times sake so I doubt he would have accepted copying PFAL or "liberating" a set or two of videos, regardless of the motivation.
On the other hand, he himself concluded that the best way to deal with a system that didn't suit your needs or recognize your vision was to give it a good attitude adjustment with a stiff 2X4 and "make your own". Take what you need and leave the rest.
What to do what to do - "ethics"...be still O throbbing spleen. It's a war out there, Dear.
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waysider
When I first took the class, it was presented on cassette for classes of 7 or less and on reel- to- reel film for more.
Geeze! Louise!---Those projectors were a real pain in the butt.
If the film broke, you had to splice it right then and there.
And, they were noisy.
The tapes or film cans had to be stored in a very "secure" location per HQ.
They were never to be left at the class location which was usually a VFW or Amer. Legion hall or such, even though the rest of the eqt. could be.
Then along came those clunky Beta machines that top loaded.(playback only)
I remember shopping for a replacement for my jalopy that bit the dust and passing up some sweet deals because they didn't have enough trunk space for all the crud we had to haul.
Then, at one point, HQ let branch and twig leaders in on a special one time bulk purchase they were going to make on Beta players(pre-VCR days)
They were ONLY $800 dollars!!!!
And you thought they only sold classes and books!!!
That was "pert near" a years pay for me.:-(
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pond
ETHICS????? your SAID ethics, didnt you bring up ethics? HAHA i thought you said ethics. oh no really really lets not go there socks .
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Watered Garden
Perhaps to some people it was a question of legal right versus moral right.
We stayed in, and have moved on. If someone offered me PFAL as "God's Word on a silver platter" today I would decline. I already have that. And I don't like the strings attached to the platter. But had we left and had we had a set of tapes, uh, I really don't know what we would have done. I would have preferred driving to HQ and finding His Majesty and inserting them retrograde (a medical term but you get the picture I'm sure.)
WG
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