False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?

[oldiesman]

He taught that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, our returning Lord and Saviour. For over 40 years! Never wavered from that. He remained faithful to these truths.

If Jim Jones believed in Jesus Christ, the bible says he SHALL BE SAVED.

Same for Adolph Hitler.

Now, they may be scubbing toilets for 20,000 years, but that's beside the point. :)

[rascal]

He may have taught that....but apparently that wasn`t enough to help him be a genuine christian. Jesus said that there will be those that expect entry to heaven one day....they taught in his name, etc....he will tell them *depart for I knew you not* I can`t say of vp `ll fall into that catagory....I only know that I wouldn`t want to be in vp`s shoes..knowing what HE did to the innocents whom he promised to lead to God.

VPW`s life of lying stealing, adultery, drugging and raping of women, savaging reputations, destroying families....the list goes on.....is NOT the life of a genuine christian....the fact that he could do these things without conscience tells ME that there was no genuine life impacting change of the new birth.

I think that the scriptures condemn him.

[Ham]

He taught that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, our returning Lord and Saviour. For over 40 years! Never wavered from that. Possibly.. He remained faithful to these truths. That's where I have a slight disagreement.

Faithfulness is in the details, in action, not word..

A lot of this reminds me of an old "friend".. "GRRRRRR, don't you DARE touch MY righteousness.."

not that I'm perfect either, but all I had were a few questions along the practical side of life..

I think righteousness, which should be a given for a "minister" who just MIGHT have a few problems..

isn't a cloak that can be put on, and put off..

time to teach: cloak on..

time for drambuie, young girls.. cloak off..

I think righteousness is not a cloak to be worn.. if it is real, if it makes a difference, it's a cloak which wears the individual.

A false minister can be pretty good at changing wardrobe..

[Bumpy]

Here we go again, and I haven’t even gone to bed yet! This was supposed to be read during tomorrow’s morning tea. You’re breaking the suspense!

Rascal, honey, get ahold of yourself! You’re sounding like an old scratched record. God Loves YOU...so relax, turn off the screen and the computer, take a relaxing pill and it will all work itself out. I promise! Bump :)

[rascal]

Faithfull to THOSE truths??? Ummm Jesus said that we would know them by there fruits....ok vow failed THAT test

Galatians clearly state what the fruit of a man of the flesh is and what the man of the spirit are...oh gee he falls into the man of the flesh catagory AGAIN...no matter WHAT he taught.

The truths that he taught...were just spring boards into teachings that enslaved and created great soorrow and bondage...people raped babies killed believers died....dunno sounds to me like a false prophet because his *truths* brought pain and death.

Jesus said there were two great commandments....love God and love your neighbor....he failed one miserably...I am suspect that he really knew how to do the first one either...or he just couldn`t have done what he did.

Edited August 6, 2007 by rascal

[Ham]

even for over forty years.. they get more adept, year after year..

[doojable]

A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah, and he doesn't even really believe it himself. Preposterous!

It is possible to say one thing and do another.

He himself said that it was possible to say anything with your mouth. I'd say that given that TWI was supposed to be a Christian ministry he had to say that Jesus Christ is Lord.

But his action betray his true beliefs...

How do you justify person drugging and raping women if he truly believes that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and Head of the Body?

[rascal]

Bumpy, as I told wth, you are a prime example of what embracing contaminated doctrine of a spiritually bankrupt organization.

You aren`t pleasing God, you aren`t ministering to people....you are simply trying to insult and demean.

Why? Get honest and ask yourself WHY you would want to treat people this way. What/whose purpose do you serve in interfering with the growth and healing that is happening here?

Yeah Dooj... IF he were part of the same body...it `d be like...ummm eewwww

Why would one fight so hard and dirty to hide these dirty little secrets?? Most people i know...want to know the truth.

[Bumpy]

Bumpy, as I told wth, you are a prime example of what embracing contaminated doctrine of a spiritually bankrupt organization.

You aren`t pleasing God, you aren`t ministering to people....you are simply trying to insult and demean.

Why? Get honest and ask yourself WHY you would want to treat people this way. What/whose purpose do you serve in interfering with the growth and healing that is happening here?

Yeah Dooj... IF he were part of the same body...it `d be like...ummm eewwww

Why would one fight so hard and dirty to hide these dirty little secrets?? Most people i know...want to know the truth.

Rascal, you need help, you’re suffering from delusions. Also, you don’t know what I’m doing or not doing in my life. You sound like judge and jury and I feel sorry for you.

Take the pill!

[Ham]

I don't think you can change a man's basic nature by throwing holy water on it..

I know another "minister" here.. very destructive, very abusive, chases women.. I don't know about drugs or alcohol, but that's a possibility.. I would give him a "loy" rating, in intensity and rudeness.

and you could hardly tell the difference between one of his sermons, and vics, when vic was at his "best".. he teaches about "the POWER of the name of Jesus".. "the AUTHORITY we have in his NAME.." "the VICTORY in his RESURRECTION.."

leans a hundred times as hard on the congregation to give financially..

but the people.. "but he TEACHES.. such AUTHORITY, WOWWWWWW.."

they are literally "spellbound"..

Is this guy just a wittle itty bitty lamb gone "wrong"?

Evil seems to wear Jesus' cloak rather well.

[Dot Matrix]

OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH

Oldies PM me your phone number and I will call you this week.

[skyrider]

I have to assume that some of these stories are correct. Even though never personally witnessed by me OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH, I still have to assume that some of these stories are true. These are powerful, internet cyber characters.

For the longest time, I kept wierwille on an untouchable pedestal. Even though I'd seen his outbursts of anger, his degradation of women, his porno movie, his drambuie bottles, his staying in his motorcoach while on the "wierwille blacktop," his mens'club hangout near wierwille barn, his telling a way production girl to "throw her boobs out when she moved," three major scream-fests that left those men to be scraped off the floor,.........and yet, I just refused to believe that he drugged and raped girls.

But.....about 12 years ago, I too had heard "some stories" in detail coming from a couple of my corps sisters.

And now, having distanced myself from twi....and coming into contact with many who left years ago, I run across more and more accounts.

[excathedra]

oh man another thread

.....And obviously, some who are posting here claim first-hand

of all the evidence that has been leveled against him here and otherwise, I can't convict him of sexual .....

i can and it's not slander

why is that so hard to believe ?

--

and how would anyone know if i forgive him or not ?

i don't understand

--

ps. sorry i screwed up that quote

[Out There]

I would not be the person I am today without his teaching. I will never speak anything disparingly about him. Once in life when I was at my lowest he put his arm on my shoulder and gave me words of encouragement. Yes I have heard all the stories of all the women he raped and the list is always growing. He and Wilt Chamberlain seemed to have alot in common supposedly. I can't judge him now nor did I in his life. I'll let God do all that

[doojable]

Yeah Dooj... IF he were part of the same body...it `d be like...ummm eewwww

Actually, my point when I said :

How do you justify a person drugging and raping women if he truly believes that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and Head of the Body?

I meant that a person who really and truly believes - BELIEVES - that Jesus Christ is Lord and Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body has a certain perspective.

From where I stand, a true man of God that really and truly believes this teaching does not live his life as if he can do anything as long as he isn't caught.

Maybe he felt like starting a ministry that won so many to the Word would give him enough crowns that he could buy his way out of judgement. (Yea - that's my tongue in my cheek there.)

Maybe he figured that he was heaven bound and all he!! couldn't stop him - so he might as well make it live it up while he was on earth.

Basically, I figure that if you believe that if one member of the Body hurts then we all hurt - then you don't go around drugging and raping the women in the Body of Christ.

Maybe he just mentally ascented to a lot of it - he liked that phrase anyway...

[Eagle]

VPW a false prophet? No, a self-indulging Christian minister, maybe. A false prophet would not have taught Christ at all IMHO.

He did get a lot of people involved in God's Word. Then again, the mixture, he turned a lot of people off, too.

I hope to see him at the gathering, I really do. I doubt most of his teachings now, but I had some good times with him, too. The thing I found most abhorrent? The sexual misconduct and teaching the same to LCM and Chris Geer and pretty much every other trustee at the time.

[doojable]

I'm just not getting the whole "I'm not going to judge him" angle. I mean if you were sent the following letter:

"Beware of men in red and green plaid pants who also wear orange and purple striped shirts. If you see one of these men do not talk to them because they will then be able to go into your house and steal your food while you sleep."

Granted, I know the very first thing to do is to check it out on snopes.com. ;)

But if the letter turned out to be legitimate, I don't see how it is judgemental to properly assess a man that fits this description. It's not judgement - it's awareness. God tells us to beware. He doesn't say, "Well if you see one of these wolves in sheep's clothing just love him up and wait for me to take care of it all."

We aren't to get revenge, but we also aren't supposed to leave the doors to our hearts unlocked when one of these guys comes a-knocking.

Feel free to take your shots at me... ;)

Edited August 7, 2007 by doojable

[Tom Strange]

I would not be the person I am today without his teaching. I will never speak anything disparingly about him. Once in life when I was at my lowest he put his arm on my shoulder and gave me words of encouragement. Yes I have heard all the stories of all the women he raped and the list is always growing. He and Wilt Chamberlain seemed to have alot in common supposedly. I can't judge him now nor did I in his life. I'll let God do all that

ummm... Wilt didn't drug and rape them...

[Abigail]

I have to assume that some of these stories are correct. Even though never personally witnessed by me OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH, I still have to assume that some of these stories are true. These are powerful, internet cyber characters.

What I don't deem as true are Rascal's silly *men of the flesh* theory that VP wasn't born again because of his sins. Absolutely ridiculous! Preposterous! I have never heard of such nonsense except from Sunesis.

But Rascal has such spiritual understanding, perhaps I'm missing something.

((((Oldies))))) If I weren't married I would kiss you! I think for you to have said that first paragraph is a tremendous thing, truly. If nothing else, perhaps it will help some others feel less defensive with you.

As for your second paragraph, I have no beef with you there. Whatever VPW's relationship with God is/was in the end, I am not to be a judge of that. That is between him and God.

It is sufficient for me to recognize that at least during some period of his lifetime, the fruit was bad. I cannot say his entire lifetime was bad, because I simply don't have enough information to make that kind of call. Again, I will leave that up to God.

[skyrider]

But if the letter turned out to be legitimate, I don't see how it is judgemental to properly assess a man that fits this description. It's not judgement - it's awareness.

I'm not sure I get it either.

Maybe......when vpw states in pfal, "I'd have to read it word for word and line by line BEFORE I'd ever think about calling the great apostle Paul a sex pervert."....could be it's a subconscious thing?

Besides, even if there were DNA samples......the next doubter would just say, "Yeah, and how do we know that the samples weren't switched or tainted?"

<_<

Edited August 7, 2007 by skyrider

[doojable]

Maybe......when vpw states in pfal, "I'd have to read it word for word and line by line BEFORE I'd ever think about calling the great apostle Paul a sex pervert."....could be it's a subconscious thing?

<_<

Hmmmm- could it have been foreshadowing...

The plot sickens thickens...

[Abigail]

I'm just not getting the whole "I'm not going to judge him" angle. I mean if you were sent the following letter:

"Beware of men in red and green plaid pants who also wear orange and purple striped shirts. If you see one of these men do not talk to them because they will then be able to go into your house and steal your food while you sleep."

Granted, I know the very first thing to do is to check it out on snopes.com. ;)

But if the letter turned out to be legitimate, I don't see how it is judgemental to properly assess a man that fits this description. It's not judgement - it's awareness. God tells us to beware. He doesn't say, "Well if you see one of these wolves in sheep's clothing just love him up and wait for me to take care of it all."

We aren't to get revenge, but we also aren't supposed to leave the doors to our hearts unlocked when one of these guys comes a-knocking.

Feel free to take your shots at me... ;)

Dooj, I see it as two entirely different types of judgement. Knowing what I now know about VPW, I would never give him entrance into my life, if he were still alive. Were he alive today, he would not be welcome into my home, he would not be allowed near my children, and I would shout warnings from my rooftop to every woman I could, to stay away from him.

That is dealing with the physical world, there here and now.

As for the next life - I simply refuse to play at God. What comes after his death is, IMO, God's judgment, not mine. I won't argue that VPW is born again, heaven bound and all hell can't stop him. But I likewise won't argue the opposite either. I will simply leave that to God.

[ex10]

Honestly, I don't get the idea that if you are born-again, you can't be a horrible sinner. The new birth doesn't affect our character or personality. I think it's totally possible to accept Jesus as Lord one minute, receive eternal life, and then fall back into old habits, no matter how perverted or dysfunctional.

To say that VPW wasn't a Christian is a stretch in my book. Hey, I think he was a pretty horrible one, but geeze, everything I know from the bible says that we are saved by grace. And I don't believe salvation can be lost by sinning. Sorry for the sidetrack. I don't want to load my high powered doctrine gun here, but geeze, just because someone might've been a pitiful excuse for a minister doesn't mean they were incapable of receiving Christ at one point in life. I've seen some Chrisitans do some pretty hateful and despicably mean things.

It seems pretty pointless to me to argue over whether or not he was saved, unless you wanna have a lengthy doctrinal discussion.

Another topic for another thread, I guess.

Lord, help me. I just agreed with Oldies on something. :blink:

[skyrider]

Hmmmm- could it have been foreshadowing...

The plot sickens thickens...

That thought has crossed my mind a few times too.

It would be interesting to see HOW MANY sexual innuendoes are in pfal. "All the women in the kingdom BELONG to the king" is another. "Take off my coat, and then my tie.....pretty soon we'd get down to the BARE facts" is yet another (sort of).

Any more??????????????????

[Ham]

To say that VPW wasn't a Christian is a stretch in my book. Hey, I think he was a pretty horrible one, but geeze, everything I know from the bible says that we are saved by grace. And I don't believe salvation can be lost by sinning. Sorry for the sidetrack. I don't want to load my high powered doctrine gun here, but geeze, just because someone might've been a pitiful excuse for a minister doesn't mean they were incapable of receiving Christ at one point in life. I've seen some Chrisitans do some pretty hateful and despicably mean things.

I dunno.. don't me get wrong here.. I'm not being mean or anything.. but sincerely, I can hold on to the illusion if it keeps me out of the looney bin.. I do find myself returning to some of the old beliefs, simply because sometimes there is no better explanation.

What if you woke up one morning, and found that everything you believd in, and invested in was wrong..

I'm not trying to load any "new age" thoughts on you either..

:)

Edited August 7, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni