Snort...and just how much time do YOU spend here Bumpy in order to draw these conclusions on people that you have never met??? LOL
You don`t know us, and you don`t understand us, therefor it seems you must critisize and try to Bully.
Nice.
I'm sure a big girl like you could handle it if that were the case, judging by what I read ! :) But just for the record, it never crossed my mind to post, as you say a "bully" remark, just how I sometimes see what's happening? Try not to waylay the discussion too quickly!
He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.
JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.
Jimmy told me the same thing over dinner at a Mexican Place in San Diego
When I spoke with Rev. JD before he died, I asked him many questions from a historical point of view - he and several others were the main players/founders of the Jesus Movement. I wanted to know the history before the ones God called were gone.
He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.
JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.
When VP made his famous trip to SF that summer, I was astounded to learn (well.. I guess I really shouldn't have been), that VP spent his free time at the SF porno theaters. Right, really comitted to outreach he was - Not.
VP just targeted the 5 "leaders" of the movement. If he could get some of them, he figured he was on his way.
VP also earlier, fellowshipped with what later were called the Tulsa renegade preachers - all the people he knew, Stiles, Clark, Star Daily, Rufus Mosely, etc. were of this group. After WWII when the country started prospering, they all felt they could make more money if they started their own ministries. Most of them did. VP did too.
I believe it became VP's quest to find something he could market. He wasn't bright enough, or Christian enough to write his own books from his own insights and relationship with God. That's why, when he ran across BG Leonard and his class and was so excited about it, it was because - eureka - I've found my goldmine.
For most people who enjoyed twig and PFAL and the classes available, he was a wonderful old guy. And yes, the Word we heart taught saved so many and lives were healed - too bad this teaching came from BG's heart and not VP's.
I think its those of us who went in the corps who got to see his Jeckyl/Hyde personality.
I always had the dichotomy in my mind - how could the Word and God be so great and in private our "teacher" was such a prick? Cruel to his wife, those around him, drunk many times (drambuie in the coffee or morning 7-up), nasty temper, with his own harem of women, publically humiliating his wife by living in the motorcoach when he was home - not with her. Once he had various women they were tossed away or passed around to others, porno movies for the corps' "learning" - how could this be? Really, how could this be?
It was GS that allowed me to realize, simple. He taught another man's class and work as if it was his own. He hijacked it. And since, because he was "the teacher" and the "man of God for our day and time" much of this was overlooked and the people on the field had no clue.
I believe he was in it for the money. One of the reasons his first people left him, as one said, he had started getting money from the classes and went out and bought a nice new Harley. When this man found out he had done this with supposedly "non-profit" money, he told him he could no longer work with him.
How much material possessions did he amass? Motorcoach, plane, thousands in wardrobe, new cars every year - 5 Harleys (he had a couple he kept at Emporia most people didn't know about), an auditorium, a compound, buildings, land, neighboring farms, houses for his family, and so much more - whatever he wanted, he got. He built an earthly, material kingdom.
How did he do this? I worked in finance in payroll. Simple. In public, he'd show people his paycheck, but in private, we'd get the notes, I'm going shopping tomorrow, please have $500 waiting for me, or other requests. He and his top leaders were given lots of money "off the books."
The man amassed an earthly, material kingdom. Did the heavenly kingdom coming ever cross his mind?
If it did, it was at the end, when he started whining - I wish I was the man I know to be.
People always thought it was so wonderful he said that. I always thought it came from a man who knew he had blown it in this life and couldn't go back and redo it. I think he was very afraid to meet his maker. He was not looking forward to it.
In fact, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict all mankind, I cannot tell you how many testimonies I have read where the person knew, it was then or there make a decision, deathbed accounts where people literally told the people around them, as they were being urged to accept Christ, that they just couldn't do it, it was too late, and would relate specifically when in their life they had had their chance.
I don't think VP really accepted Christ, from his actions. I think he did have an "intellectual" interest in the Bible though. He had to, he had to keep up his public persona as "the man of God."
Then, in true sociopathic form, near the end, he runs off to CG and complains and bitches about everyone and everything in the ministry. Nothing was his fault - oh no... Gee, everyone had let him down, poor me. He was angry. What does he do in his last hours? Watch sports on tv. I think, if I was really concerned about my salvation at the end, I wouldn't be watching tv.
I believe he was a false prophet - and why would we marvel at this? "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." "They entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity."
I guess that just about sums up VP for me.
I think a lot of this was brought out 7 years ago
In, Did VP start out bad or become bad
I believe we had additonal contributors back then, but I agree with you
I wish Ralph D would pop in like he did on Waydale
I have a hard time saying that vpw was a "good minister with problems" simply because of the way he started TWI. He started it with stolen goods. I guess that's like starting a hospital with stolen money. Sure, some good is done - but there is so much work to cover up the original bad act that eventually all the "good" is overshadowed by the deceit.
Shoot, how many times did we hear vp say, "If you tell the truth you can forget it but if you tell a lie you have to remember it." Seems to me he knew this first hand.
:) I'm not sure what's so excellent about it. The way that "sounds" brings to mind a vision of a shark smelling blood on the water.
Actually, that's not entirely correct. The second part of the OP asked why we (who think he was a false prophet) thought he was a good minister. Which if you asked me (I know you didn't) seems a bit contradictory. Why would I (if I thought he was a false prophet) think he was a good minister? You added the "with problems." part.
Now, having read through the remainder of this thread (following your inquisitive post) I'm inclined not to bother with this subject or answering your question with any detail. No matter what opinion I have to share I really don't think most of the participants on this thread are really interested in it. Their minds are convinced that he was not only a false prophet but an evil man as well. Besides -- anotherdan pretty much expressed my thinking on this matter (with a few exceptions).
So Eyes, I'll just leave you and everyone on this thread to their own devices. Enjoy!
No Larry, I don't go around like a shark looking for blood. I was kind of "hoping" for some honest debate since the topic was worded in such a manner as to encourage such a thing. And furthermore I was just reading the topic from the line at the top of the page: False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?, wolf in sheep's clothing?
So no I did not "add" the words "with problems". I simply read what was written. Sorry if that confused anyone.
Too bad you do not wish to debate as Another Dan has. That is fine. I am learning and puting some puzzle pieces together for my own healing, I pray that you also can do the same elsewhere.
No Larry, I don't go around like a shark looking for blood. I was kind of "hoping" for some honest debate since the topic was worded in such a manner as to encourage such a thing. And furthermore I was just reading the topic from the line at the top of the page: False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?, wolf in sheep's clothing?
So no I did not "add" the words "with problems". I simply read what was written. Sorry if that confused anyone.
Too bad you do not wish to debate as Another Dan has. That is fine. I am learning and puting some puzzle pieces together for my own healing, I pray that you also can do the same elsewhere.
Another Dan I get where you are coming from although at this point I'm not in complete agreement with you. But I am willing to keep listening and learning. I for one did not have a great deal of personal contact with VP so my knowledge is limited.
So I will continue to read everyone's post and try to put pieces together. If the pieces fit what I do know I will keep them, if they do not fit in my puzzle but sound coharent then I will put them on the back burner for further consideration (or start another puzzle), if they sound like trash...well we all know where those go.
Ex 10 and Sunesis- Wow! My mind is still realing from the whole bracelet thing. What an arrogant piece of work! I wish I had known that little piece of information way back in 78. But then again that would mean that I wouldn't know any of you lovely people. So all things still work to the good for those that love God.
I was on the field when the motorcycle thing happened and my WOW sister had a friend at HQ so I heard about it. I was not moved one way or the other about it. People get into accidents so what. That is what I thought at the time. I was asked not to tell anyone including our WOW brothers. I thought that was a little strange. But now that little piece of info is fitting nicely into the puzzle.
Thanks all for the wonderful posts...please do not let me disturb further discussion....please continue... :)
Was "did vp start out bad or become bad" on GS or on Waydale? If it was here, do you have a link? If it was Waydale did you save it and can you post it?
How you respond to this information is your business.
Personally, I approach the subject as I would if we were discussing Charles Manson, immoral pyramid schemes or the corruption in politics. I find nothing "unChristian" about bringing to light evils and deceptions that hurt people...in fact, I find the information in this particular thread to be both helpful to people and consistant with the purpose of this website.
I totally agree with this.
Gee........wonder why God wanted Paul to write and reprove "the negatives and immoral conduct" in the Corinthian Church. How unChristian like of Paul to write it......and 2000 years later, I learn from it?????
Maybe, we should cut out all references in the Scriptures of evils and deceptions that hurt people. Then we could saturate our brains with flowers and puppy dogs.....and live in a state of utopia and DENIAL.
Or, maybe.......we should just sit around and sing kumbiyah around the campfire and praise wierwille's name for having slaved night and day to graciously extend the pfal class.....where every word is dipped in silver, purified seven times and spoken from his holy lips.
And, further.....why not just go back to twi and honor them with your time and 15% of your income. Why are all of the vpw-defenders here.......OUT and AWAY from twi...????
I was on the field when the motorcycle thing happened and my WOW sister had a friend at HQ so I heard about it. I was not moved one way or the other about it. People get into accidents so what. That is what I thought at the time. I was asked not to tell anyone including our WOW brothers. I thought that was a little strange. But now that little piece of info is fitting nicely into the puzzle.
Those people vpw was willing to listen to- those people chose to keep silence or to partake in the evil deeds.
There WERE those who confronted vpw and others about the evil.
vpw's response was to kick them out, ostracize them, and savage their reputations so no one would listen to them,
and try to shatter their self-esteem so they would remain silent.
That's been pretty established- it happened to more than a few women.
Word Wolf – thanks for the clarification. I should issue a correction for my post # 79 by retracting "no one ever confronted him." I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes - but did try to qualify the lack of his being confronted by the fact that he surrounded himself with people that "kissed his a$$." Anybody that crossed him was - - phffffffft - blown outta there!
... I imagine IF the kind of moral uprightness that Paul called for in I Corinthians, expecting people to submit to the moral demands of Scripture – was active during vpw's ministry – things may have turned out completely different – as we read of the good that came from Paul's reproof in II Corinthians...But no - no one ever confronted him - the people closest to him that knew of his ways - and kissed his a$$ - were in charge of covering up his sins to maintain that pristine man-o-god persona.
And my apologies to all those who had the courage to confront him.
Another Dan – everyone needs to go at their own pace processing this stuff.
This place is really interesting. The cafe I mean. Every so often, a newbie stumbles in, and chastises people for being "judgmental," just because some want to sort things out, and make as much sense of their past involvement with a questionable "christian" organization as they can.
So many people wander in here wondering "What the heck happened? in the Way." They come here looking for resolution. (Yeah, I know that because people have said it over and over again on this board.) I really don't see it as any kind of crime, or sin even, to relate the other side of the story, or even to collectively speculate on past events and the reasons they happened the way they did.
Anybody ever taken a history class, where there is enlightening discussion about events of the past, and the how and why they occurred the way they did? I never heard anybody in a history class interupt the discussion and tell everyone voicing their opinion that they were being "judgmental." Good grief.
Yet, I also understand why people object to some of the discussion here. It gets pretty emotional because we are talking about people and events that we were a part of. I really can't see anything wrong with having an opinion and verbalizing it. So with that in mind, maybe we can just cut each other a little slack, on both ends of the spectrum. End of sermon. :) Oh, except for one bible verse, for those who like such things:
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
I think that verse was written "for our learning." ;)
I dunno.. people like vic make me question the efficacy, if not the validity of the new birth and redemption. I mean.. is redemption such a SMALL thing.. and the new birth SO ineffective, that a *man* can simply carry on worse than before, but now! He can preach the bible..
At best I think they are trying to pollute the Lord's blood..
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah, and he doesn't even really believe it himself. Preposterous!
I don`t think that people who received their entire spiritual education so to speak solely at the hands of these men of the flesh are familiar enough with the walk of a genuine spirit filled christian to be able to tell the difference between genuine and one who is counterfit.
Sorry. I don't see any VPW-defenders here. His campaign has been over for at least a couple of decades. What I believe you are referring to are not VPW-defenders but all the doubting "Thomas'es" who still don't and they won't believe - in fact, they refuse to believe every: I was raped by VPW story coming down the Internet sewer pipe told by a nameless face hiding behind a screenname.
I'm sure some see those reports by faceless "victims" hiding behind a screenname as an act of bravery, but we are not sure what they are trying to prove by their cowards attack on VPW - someone whose been dead for more than 20 years now. Well - I do know of a couple who went after LCM, but I am pretty sure they had more than just another rape story to back up their claim. But that's basically all we have with VPW - just people's stories.
Sure, many people believe those stories wholeheatedly without question - people who apparently still have a personal axe to grind with VPW. Now we don't doubt he rubbed some people the wrong way when he was alive - even enough to make some people out there his enemy for life. But I figure us doubting "Thomas'es" won't put our wholehearted belief in any of those stories until we see that "stained blue dress" with VPW's DNA on it first. Produce and show us that stained blue dress with his DNA on it, then perhaps we'll believe.
I have to assume that some of these stories are correct. Even though never personally witnessed by me OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH, I still have to assume that some of these stories are true. These are powerful, internet cyber characters.
What I don't deem as true are Rascal's silly *men of the flesh* theory that VP wasn't born again because of his sins. Absolutely ridiculous! Preposterous! I have never heard of such nonsense except from Sunesis.
But Rascal has such spiritual understanding, perhaps I'm missing something.
The stories aren`t told for you to believe wth. You and your bunch have slaughtered enough innocent souls in your time. Now you try to once again visciously rend and tear people apart....it won`t work...we are older, smarter, stronger now.
The people who need to know what happened and why will...the knowledge brings strength...each of us...whether it was drugging and rape, forced abortions, broken families, loved ones dying that we suffered...we will finally know and understand finally that it wasn`t us...our lack of spirituality, God leading us there and forsaking us....some how that we blew it...
This knowledge of the spiritual putridness of these men will set us free from a life time of struggling to live up to a rediculous dogma....
I don`t know why you want these peoples crimes hidden...I don`t know if you are afraid to face the fact that you were wrong...I don`t know why you think that your venom or hatefullness is even remotely the behavior of a genuine christian.
Your nastiness wth ..your desire to rend and hurt .... is a prime example of the spiritual banruptcy of the doctrine that you embraced.
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah, and he doesn't even really believe it himself. Preposterous!
He also taught that Christ was absent and that we should never speak to him in prayer...
If Mr. Wierwille was a Christian, he wasn't leading anyone towards a relationship with Jesus Christ...not as I understand it anyway.
The difference between Wierwille and Simon the sorceror is that Peter pulled the plug on Simon...nobody pulled Vic's plug.
Me? I have never claimed *such spiritual understanding*?? I only point out what the scriptures say about the behaviors of vpw.
I am sorry that it flies in the face of what you want to believe. I can olny assume that God placed galatians in there so that we could understand...I can only surmise that Jesus chose to instruct us to look at the fruit to identify one another because it must have been difficult to tell the genuine christian from the counterfit....shrug
It makes perfect sense to me...otherwise..I have to believe that a loving God would have lead earnest young people in to be slaughtered.
You have never answered me oldies....Do you make the same argument for Jim Jones??? He ran churches and taught scriptures for as long as vpw did.
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mamouda
Quote Teach. Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the
mamouda
I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing
mamouda
Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to
Bumpy
I'm sure a big girl like you could handle it if that were the case, judging by what I read ! :) But just for the record, it never crossed my mind to post, as you say a "bully" remark, just how I sometimes see what's happening? Try not to waylay the discussion too quickly!
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Dot Matrix
Sunesis:
Jimmy told me the same thing over dinner at a Mexican Place in San Diego
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Dot Matrix
Sunesis:
I think a lot of this was brought out 7 years ago
In, Did VP start out bad or become bad
I believe we had additonal contributors back then, but I agree with you
I wish Ralph D would pop in like he did on Waydale
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doojable
Back to the topic:
I have a hard time saying that vpw was a "good minister with problems" simply because of the way he started TWI. He started it with stolen goods. I guess that's like starting a hospital with stolen money. Sure, some good is done - but there is so much work to cover up the original bad act that eventually all the "good" is overshadowed by the deceit.
Shoot, how many times did we hear vp say, "If you tell the truth you can forget it but if you tell a lie you have to remember it." Seems to me he knew this first hand.
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Ham
maybe he had a very very good memory..
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doojable
Oh I'm sure way too much energy, effort and money was spent to cover up a lot of lies...
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Eyesopen
No Larry, I don't go around like a shark looking for blood. I was kind of "hoping" for some honest debate since the topic was worded in such a manner as to encourage such a thing. And furthermore I was just reading the topic from the line at the top of the page: False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?, wolf in sheep's clothing?
So no I did not "add" the words "with problems". I simply read what was written. Sorry if that confused anyone.
Too bad you do not wish to debate as Another Dan has. That is fine. I am learning and puting some puzzle pieces together for my own healing, I pray that you also can do the same elsewhere.
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Larry N Moore
My mistake, I misread. You're right.
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Eyesopen
Another Dan I get where you are coming from although at this point I'm not in complete agreement with you. But I am willing to keep listening and learning. I for one did not have a great deal of personal contact with VP so my knowledge is limited.
So I will continue to read everyone's post and try to put pieces together. If the pieces fit what I do know I will keep them, if they do not fit in my puzzle but sound coharent then I will put them on the back burner for further consideration (or start another puzzle), if they sound like trash...well we all know where those go.
Ex 10 and Sunesis- Wow! My mind is still realing from the whole bracelet thing. What an arrogant piece of work! I wish I had known that little piece of information way back in 78. But then again that would mean that I wouldn't know any of you lovely people. So all things still work to the good for those that love God.
I was on the field when the motorcycle thing happened and my WOW sister had a friend at HQ so I heard about it. I was not moved one way or the other about it. People get into accidents so what. That is what I thought at the time. I was asked not to tell anyone including our WOW brothers. I thought that was a little strange. But now that little piece of info is fitting nicely into the puzzle.
Thanks all for the wonderful posts...please do not let me disturb further discussion....please continue... :)
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now I see
Dot,
Was "did vp start out bad or become bad" on GS or on Waydale? If it was here, do you have a link? If it was Waydale did you save it and can you post it?
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skyrider
I totally agree with this.
Gee........wonder why God wanted Paul to write and reprove "the negatives and immoral conduct" in the Corinthian Church. How unChristian like of Paul to write it......and 2000 years later, I learn from it?????
Maybe, we should cut out all references in the Scriptures of evils and deceptions that hurt people. Then we could saturate our brains with flowers and puppy dogs.....and live in a state of utopia and DENIAL.
Or, maybe.......we should just sit around and sing kumbiyah around the campfire and praise wierwille's name for having slaved night and day to graciously extend the pfal class.....where every word is dipped in silver, purified seven times and spoken from his holy lips.
And, further.....why not just go back to twi and honor them with your time and 15% of your income. Why are all of the vpw-defenders here.......OUT and AWAY from twi...????
You're welcome.
:)
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T-Bone
Word Wolf – thanks for the clarification. I should issue a correction for my post # 79 by retracting "no one ever confronted him." I shouldn't have spoken in absolutes - but did try to qualify the lack of his being confronted by the fact that he surrounded himself with people that "kissed his a$$." Anybody that crossed him was - - phffffffft - blown outta there!
And my apologies to all those who had the courage to confront him.
Another Dan – everyone needs to go at their own pace processing this stuff.
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oldiesman
What do you mean by "good"? I think Dr. Wierwille was a born again Christian.
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ex10
This place is really interesting. The cafe I mean. Every so often, a newbie stumbles in, and chastises people for being "judgmental," just because some want to sort things out, and make as much sense of their past involvement with a questionable "christian" organization as they can.
So many people wander in here wondering "What the heck happened? in the Way." They come here looking for resolution. (Yeah, I know that because people have said it over and over again on this board.) I really don't see it as any kind of crime, or sin even, to relate the other side of the story, or even to collectively speculate on past events and the reasons they happened the way they did.
Anybody ever taken a history class, where there is enlightening discussion about events of the past, and the how and why they occurred the way they did? I never heard anybody in a history class interupt the discussion and tell everyone voicing their opinion that they were being "judgmental." Good grief.
Yet, I also understand why people object to some of the discussion here. It gets pretty emotional because we are talking about people and events that we were a part of. I really can't see anything wrong with having an opinion and verbalizing it. So with that in mind, maybe we can just cut each other a little slack, on both ends of the spectrum. End of sermon. :) Oh, except for one bible verse, for those who like such things:
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
I think that verse was written "for our learning." ;)
Peace out.
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Ham
I dunno.. people like vic make me question the efficacy, if not the validity of the new birth and redemption. I mean.. is redemption such a SMALL thing.. and the new birth SO ineffective, that a *man* can simply carry on worse than before, but now! He can preach the bible..
At best I think they are trying to pollute the Lord's blood..
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ex10
Sounds like a great topic for a new thread, Ham.
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rascal
I believe that to be an assumption on your part oldies...one that evidence to date doesn`t support...shrug
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oldiesman
A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah, and he doesn't even really believe it himself. Preposterous!
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rascal
False prophets don`t teach those things???
Genuine christians just don`t rape the flock.
I don`t think that people who received their entire spiritual education so to speak solely at the hands of these men of the flesh are familiar enough with the walk of a genuine spirit filled christian to be able to tell the difference between genuine and one who is counterfit.
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What The Hey
Sorry. I don't see any VPW-defenders here. His campaign has been over for at least a couple of decades. What I believe you are referring to are not VPW-defenders but all the doubting "Thomas'es" who still don't and they won't believe - in fact, they refuse to believe every: I was raped by VPW story coming down the Internet sewer pipe told by a nameless face hiding behind a screenname.
I'm sure some see those reports by faceless "victims" hiding behind a screenname as an act of bravery, but we are not sure what they are trying to prove by their cowards attack on VPW - someone whose been dead for more than 20 years now. Well - I do know of a couple who went after LCM, but I am pretty sure they had more than just another rape story to back up their claim. But that's basically all we have with VPW - just people's stories.
Sure, many people believe those stories wholeheatedly without question - people who apparently still have a personal axe to grind with VPW. Now we don't doubt he rubbed some people the wrong way when he was alive - even enough to make some people out there his enemy for life. But I figure us doubting "Thomas'es" won't put our wholehearted belief in any of those stories until we see that "stained blue dress" with VPW's DNA on it first. Produce and show us that stained blue dress with his DNA on it, then perhaps we'll believe.
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oldiesman
I have to assume that some of these stories are correct. Even though never personally witnessed by me OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH, I still have to assume that some of these stories are true. These are powerful, internet cyber characters.
What I don't deem as true are Rascal's silly *men of the flesh* theory that VP wasn't born again because of his sins. Absolutely ridiculous! Preposterous! I have never heard of such nonsense except from Sunesis.
But Rascal has such spiritual understanding, perhaps I'm missing something.
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rascal
The stories aren`t told for you to believe wth. You and your bunch have slaughtered enough innocent souls in your time. Now you try to once again visciously rend and tear people apart....it won`t work...we are older, smarter, stronger now.
The people who need to know what happened and why will...the knowledge brings strength...each of us...whether it was drugging and rape, forced abortions, broken families, loved ones dying that we suffered...we will finally know and understand finally that it wasn`t us...our lack of spirituality, God leading us there and forsaking us....some how that we blew it...
This knowledge of the spiritual putridness of these men will set us free from a life time of struggling to live up to a rediculous dogma....
I don`t know why you want these peoples crimes hidden...I don`t know if you are afraid to face the fact that you were wrong...I don`t know why you think that your venom or hatefullness is even remotely the behavior of a genuine christian.
Your nastiness wth ..your desire to rend and hurt .... is a prime example of the spiritual banruptcy of the doctrine that you embraced.
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GrouchoMarxJr
He also taught that Christ was absent and that we should never speak to him in prayer...
If Mr. Wierwille was a Christian, he wasn't leading anyone towards a relationship with Jesus Christ...not as I understand it anyway.
The difference between Wierwille and Simon the sorceror is that Peter pulled the plug on Simon...nobody pulled Vic's plug.
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rascal
Me? I have never claimed *such spiritual understanding*?? I only point out what the scriptures say about the behaviors of vpw.
I am sorry that it flies in the face of what you want to believe. I can olny assume that God placed galatians in there so that we could understand...I can only surmise that Jesus chose to instruct us to look at the fruit to identify one another because it must have been difficult to tell the genuine christian from the counterfit....shrug
It makes perfect sense to me...otherwise..I have to believe that a loving God would have lead earnest young people in to be slaughtered.
You have never answered me oldies....Do you make the same argument for Jim Jones??? He ran churches and taught scriptures for as long as vpw did.
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