Just a brief timeline.......Wierwille received this motorcycle and sidecar in 1982. With this gift from the believers, vpw and mrs. wanted to do a few short trips to visit fellowships, get away from hq, etc.
I was working on hq staff during these years and this motorcycle was brought into the warehouse where it was tucked away behind a spray booth enclosure. Five or six guys -- mostly the Flight Services guys, the ones with detailing and spray painting/coating experience -- were involved in this extremely tight-lipped task to restore this motorcycle back to its original condition, or better. I saw vp's motorcycle in this booth and eye-witnessed that it had so damage (just in case someone here thinks its hearsay).
Apparently, wierwille was in Ontario and at a slow rate of speed laid the motorcycle over at an intersection. With the weight and all, it crumpled up the front fender and scuffed up the side and gas tank area. Again, no major damage.....but certainly, it needed repair and paint work.
Why such secrecy??? Why the cover-up??? IMO, .....again, it was just one of image and perception. Wierwille got what wierwille wanted.......and he must have sworn his aides and staff workers to silence.
I certainly found out in secret.......and was told to do likewise.
I think that a lot of what goes on here can be categorized as "processing."
Coming to an understanding of what we did and why we did it comes in layers. This is complicated by the fact that for a lot of us, we got in TWI because we were seeking God and His will - and that journey hasn't come to an end.
For myself, I sometimes wonder how much more I could have done for Him had I not had the detour. I find myself asking forgiveness of those who I got in TWI - especially those that had a particularly rough time while in.
Perhaps if I had said, "Screw it all. I'm going fishing...." then I'd be happy as a clam right now. (no pun intended ;)) The truth is that I find myself holding my own feet to the fire with each and every thing that I find that I missed. I have mourned the times I could have helped a Corps sister or brother if I had only known what was bugging them.
Yeah.....this understanding comes in layers, like peeling off the outer layers of an onion. And, the more one keeps peeling the layers away, the stronger the odor as one gets to its core.
Another thing about processing this information...........some of us corps invested DECADES into twi, moving here and there, taking corps assignments to help "move God's Word" and strengthen the ministry work. But when the cloak of wierwille's "ministry" and his personal life is viewed FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF TIME AND DISTANCE, it is disturbing to see the lies and deception.
THEN.........to see that once we've removed ourselves from this cult allegiance, our endeavors to reconnect with our parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc. More than likely, our grandparents died and we didn't even go to the funerals.....since we followed the mog's rules.
Yeah.........it's MY life now.
Sometimes, I'm reminded of that song.......where the lyrics go, "He can't even run his own life, be d@mned if he'll run MINE.
...You go on and do what you've gotta do. I don't like it, I don't think it's helping as much as you might think, and yet I have to leave you for the Lord to judge, just as I do with VPW. He is the one that knows the thoughts and intents of the hearts. He'll lay open the motivations of mortal men. He judges righteously. I do NOT accept the judgements pronounced upon him so often in these threads. I do not think it is godly or healthy to do so. (If we're going to be doing what the scriptures say, how about trying this on for size: "judge not, lest ye be judged.")
The context of Matthew 7: 1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged" does not indicate a blanket prohibition on all judging – just self-righteous, hypocritical judging. For as you read on you'll find we're expected to use good judgment in a few situations: use honest criteria for self-evaluation and in counseling others [verses 2-5], know the difference between those who are antagonistic to the gospel and those who are receptive [verse 6], know when to ask, seek, and knock [verses 7-11], evaluate how you treat others by the Golden Rule [verse 12], know difference between the wide and narrow gate [verses 13,14], identify false prophets and false brethren [verses 15-27].
Judgment of someone's heart, intentions or destiny is God's job. But the exercise of good moral judgment is definitely a responsibility of Christians – as evident in the case of the Corinthians who allowed blatant immorality to defile their church – Paul had to exhort them to judge those inside the church – those outside God judges . vpw and TWI would always expect people to sever the connection between the eyeballs and the conscience – get people to doubt their own powers of discernment. I imagine IF the kind of moral uprightness that Paul called for in I Corinthians, expecting people to submit to the moral demands of Scripture – was active during vpw's ministry – things may have turned out completely different – as we read of the good that came from Paul's reproof in II Corinthians...But no - no one ever confronted him - the people closest to him that knew of his ways - and kissed his a$$ - were in charge of covering up his sins to maintain that pristine man-o-god persona.
Hey Another Dan, you should be thankful that VP was not into sex with other men and decided to drug you and rape you, then discredit you and sent you off into your own private hell of shame and condemnation, friendless, with no means of support. I believe that very thing has happened to some of "sisters" here.
Maybe if that had happened to you, you might feel differently about this topic. Could you imagine being a shy, soft hearted woman and these things happening to you, how quickly would you get over it, if ever.
Maybe the good of the few, outweighs the benefits toward the image of the organization of TWI and VP, the perpetrator, in contrast to whatever logic you seem to apply here in efforts to silence and censure us, but instead you scold and mock us! If there was no deceit there would be no reason to unveil it here.
How dare you claim we here are being judgmental when some of hearts were ripped out because of the way we were treated or from things done to us. Shame on you! Some of us have been carrying burdens for almost 20 years, you should consider yourself lucky you are not named among them, rather, you should do all you can to shepherd and heal the flock.
How smug you are to think that what you experienced and feel is what everyone else has, how convenient
for you.
Don't be throwing God's name or scriptures around until you comprehend and understand what God's heart for an individual really is, the people here are God's, they deserve answers and the truth.
Great point bnis..I have often wondered if those proclaiming vpw`s praises the loudest had been bent over a chair...or one of their sons whom reported to the mog expecting to learn great spiritual insight.....had been degraded and thrown away.... if their opinion of him might be different.
Dooj, I appreciate your courtesy, and want to extend the same to you. I want it to be authentic compassion, not just rhetorical device. I want to join WITH you against evil. I suppose I "processed" in my sleep last night, because although I have a work week to begin, I’m typing over my first cup of coffee, having awoken with a burden.
"Processing" is a cool postmodern (and I would guess post-Freudian) word. Our friends locally have been lately on a certain "processing" kick that is quite a different "process." It has to do with the visitation of memories; I would call it "brutal visitation." That is, they dare to go fully to their pain, whether it is child abuse, sexual abuse, or whatever. The idea is that we tend to repress memories that make us uncomfortable, and thereby accept the conclusions we reached about it as a child. In other words, in a vulnerable state, we are traumatized, and never revisit the situation once we are a little more grown up. And we then live out our lives in sometimes outrageously disfunctional ways as a result. The "friend" (not a technical term… it just sounds more correct to call them that rather than "subject" or "the one being worked on") is encouraged to really feel what they are feeling. They might be asked, "how did you feel when this was occurring?" "If that feeling could cry out, what would it say?" Believe me, some of these "fellowships" with people taking the time to support one another, not challenge or marginalize the other’s feelings, etc., can be extremely distressing. Distress is not the goal, of course. Healing is. God is "invited" (I know, as if He needs an invitation… and yet how often we "process" without Him!) into that memory. What would God have us know about that situation? Where was God, what was God "feeling" when it occurred to us? That type of thing. Their may be some waiting for the answer. It may not come in that session, or only in small ways. Sometimes it comes very very powerfully, and provides profound resolution. God being sovereign, and obviously beyond us, may say the unexpected.
From a merely psychological point of view, this type of honest revisitation seems potentially profitable to me. It allows the person to examine events and their childhood reactions and possibly lifelong convictions that shaped them and made them who they are today. The value lies in being willing, with our "adult" minds, to reconsider the situation. Example: a person may have been deeply wounded by the fact that their mother worked nights, slept during the day, and neglected them when they were a child.
A good introduction to this kind of ministry is The Life Model: Living with the heart Jesus gave you, by Wilder. He distinguishes "Type 1 trauma" from "Type 2." One is a passive trauma, such as neglect, whereas the other is actual infliction of trauma. Either can be devastating.
But from a spiritual point of view, "allowing" God in the process opens it up to even greater results, and we have seen them. The supporting roles of friends who simply care and who are willing to "go there with you" can be a time-consuming sacrifice, but what are friends for? Care is taken not to "correct" the friend, and pains are taken not to be "the mouthpiece" of God for that person, to analyze, diagnose, or otherwise interfere with their own receiving from God "the answer," or His wisdom. This is done with an authentic belief that God is quite capable of reaching us in the deepest hell. It has the significant benefit of real progress (healing), because if someone hears it from me, they may only "be convinced." But if they themselves hear it from God, well, "that settles it."
Not long ago, I would scoff at such an exercise. (Being honest here!) The results have sometimes been dramatic, sometimes progressive. I am, however, an unfinished work, and my harsher, less compassionate former stance is softening. WordWolf’s long post, just above, seems detestable to me – character assassination, pure and simple, finely honed over years and thousands of posts at the GSC. I also suspect lying spirits to be among us. But it is possible that this form of revisiting certain pain can have positive benefits, I suppose. Honestly, I don’t know. Trying to be fair and open-minded in a good sense, maybe this "process" will help and has helped some people. I suppose another 20 years will pass, and WordWolf or his/her successor will have the story more finely tuned and filled out as others add what they "saw," and as others come forward with new details and anecdotes. Will that be helpful?
It’s been suggested here and there by the anti-anti’s that if the most venomous accusers’ lives were as open to scrutiny as his was, they would probably not compare favorably to him. I can’t help suspecting that to be true, too. The reply usually runs, "yeah, but I didn't (blah blah... citing the worst sins that have been proven to their satisfaction.)" Those who reply that way are unlikely to be moved by Jesus' words about being angry with a brother, which is akin to murder. Like other religious people, they will reply that they are angry for a reason (not "without a cause.")
My suggestion is definitely to authentically "invite God" into "the process." There are as many ways to do this as there are post-ers here, I suppose, but here is a walk-through of one concrete method.
Go back to the beginning and read all these posts again (this is a short thread, comparatively!) Don’t bother judging others, but allow their words to serve as a context for your own. When you get to your posts, stop and ask your Father what He thinks about your post. Ask Him to reveal your own heartstrings to you. Just ask for His input, and then wait on Him. Authentically listen. He may surprise you and show up.
Some of you still confess Jesus as your Lord, and have no problem asking him directly, while others feel it doesn’t work that way, and have to "ask God directly." Either way is fine. Others deny God altogether, and yet, even you can do the exercise and ask yourself, "is this who I really am, or do I desire to change?" or even, "is this the reality I choose to represent?"
On one level, I agree with ex10 that the beauty of this place is the liberty to think for ourselves, to hold our own convictions and not be pressured by others into conforming with their belief system. (I hope I’m representing you fairly, Ex!) As more of an anti-anti, I’ve been given latitude and courtesy, and I thank you and the folks as GSC for it. I truly hope that each of you can enter into the kind of rest that God has offered in Jesus Christ, and if in some way I can be there for you, please let me know.
Wilder’s book is based on the theme of growing up with one another, and encourages a community of faith that lives with the heart Jesus gave it. It’s a good model, but not the only one. In my opinion, it’s definitely worth a look, especially for you, Dooj. Such a community could be encouraged online as well as locally. You seem to be a person who wants to "get" another. I’m with you on that. We treasure the friends that "get" us, don’t we? They show up when we don’t "want" them to, but when we need them to! They don’t argue with what we’re feeling; they understand. They love us. Good stuff!
got to find the lyrics of that song, "Seen Enough."
I see several of us are up together, this morning. T-Bone, I appreciate the context you pointed out. Good of you to add to the conversation.
"But Now I See" I'm sorry that I appear that way to you; I certainly don't intend to be the kind of person you view me to be. But the "shame on you" is not working. As I said before, I took a risk. Now I have to accept the results of that risk, and I am OK with that. Will you accept my recommendation above, and revisit the thread with a view to inviting God to teach you something about yourself?
Hey Another, I just read your post stating you think I was starting rumors, I'm not, my sources are:
1) A 3rd Corps person sent on the field in '78 from a life at HQ's for the very reason I stated; I got the info from their own mouth, plus it was substanciated by others.
2) I read that info here, from a reliable source, someone who eye witnessed it.
3) I only backed down because I did not want to reveal my source, but since you are accusing me of rumor mongering, the source was from someone at the Trustee level at TWI, who had at least the same status as Geer probably more, who does have an inflated ego of himself, but I do believe it was accurate. No rumors here, just didn't tell all I knew.
Dan, that is only fair.....might I respectfully ask of you the same thing? That there is a possibly God is at work on a number of different levels here for people :)
I think that is one of the traps we (all of us) tend to fall into post twi....expecting to all be on the same page ...that if someone isn`t seeing things the way we do....they are dead wrong.
Dan your imput is of value, your persective apreciated.
Just read your next comment, you offend me, you are insufferable in your ignorance, I am done with argueing with you, thanks for derailing this thread.
I offer the following without endorsing all the views of Stephen Stills, as a humorous respite from the serious issue at hand, and to demonstrate that I'm not just a bibleverse slinging Wordhead. It never got any airtime, but it's musically and lyrically powerful. You've got to hear him sing it!
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Seen Enough Lyrics
(Stephen Stills)
I lost my innocence over intolerance
All the indignities heaped on the black man
We went to church they all prayed for the white man
OK, I've GOT to go to work! Rascal, thank you. Yes, I concede that without reservation. I have a LOT of difficulty with your posts, sometimes, as you can imagine, but I'm also convinced that you are a sister who is doing her best to work out her own wholeness, and to assist others to do the same. I would gladly take your hand and pray with you. You're a compassionate person, and I admire you for that.
"But Now I See", if you don't see that some of the stuff you've posted qualify as rumors, you need a dictionary or something. Put me on Ignore.
edit: derailing this thread? I'm obviously not posting what you as the thread starter wants to hear, but I'm perfectly ON TOPIC, in my opinion. I'll leave if you request. It's your thread.
Yeah but aren`t we all at some point bnis?? At some point we change because a somebody cares enough to gently point us in the direction towards understanding???
That was an awfully nice thing to say Dan :) Because I can see that you are a caring person (not just cause you were nice to me lol) Your attempts to be gentle alow me to consider your pov without being offended.
How about though.... we comment on the topic at hand dan....whether or not vpw was a false prophet or a minister gone bad?
See it is vitally important for some of us to understand in order to heal...in order to regain that which was stolen from us. There is a whole issue about being able to trust God at stake wrapped up for us in understanding this.
If you want to start a thread on how wrong it is for us to annalyze the fruit in vp`s life, that would be apropriate and I would gladly debate you on that subject rather than to further derail a fruitfull discussion on THIS one :)
I was serious when I said that we all hold a piece of the puzzle and can help one another understand.
It's nice that you've found something that works for you anotherDan... really... and your posts are well constructed and well thought out... they're very reminicent of the structure and type that we learned in residence in "Christian Motivational Techniques"... (which (IMO) had very little to do with 'Christian')... I certainly wouldn't take you to task for having your own opinions on all of this but I do have a problem with all of your inference and innuendo of where folks are coming from or what spirit they might be influenced by...
I suppose that I could take your posts and point that out one by one but that would take a lot more time because there's so much... anyway, they are very slick posts, I'll give my two cents worth on just this one point though...
WordWolf’s long post, just above, seems detestable to me – character assassination, pure and simple, finely honed over years and thousands of posts at the GSC. I also suspect lying spirits to be among us. But it is possible that this form of revisiting certain pain can have positive benefits, I suppose. Honestly, I don’t know. Trying to be fair and open-minded in a good sense, maybe this "process" will help and has helped some people. I suppose another 20 years will pass, and WordWolf or his/her successor will have the story more finely tuned and filled out as others add what they "saw," and as others come forward with new details and anecdotes. Will that be helpful?
I think it will. There are folks who come here who have spent years and years in "the TWI mindset" (whether they're in or out), folks who live in a dreamworld constructed and built by TWI that have no idea that this stuff went on. I think if TWI spent 50 years "branding" peoples minds and hearts we can spend a few lines of bandwidth exposing what went on in the dark underbelly of TWI that many never knew existed. Sure... none of us are without fault(s) and sin(s)... but then none of us set up an entire ministry to feed our lusts... (at least I don't think so) ...and I think that's a big difference between us and veepee...
I risk being a two-faced judgmental person (or just mental!) by advancing what I did. I'm aware of that. But I do it in good faith, and with the hope that y'all might consider that it represents what others may think as they "lurk," but perhaps are not willing to jump and and be odd-man-out. Maybe, too, a non-poster will have something else to think about than all this other (sigh!) stuff... it's about possibilities, and yes, about discussion. My email address is available to anyone who views my profile. If anyone wants to have a non-public conversation, I would welcome that. I'm also "here" to discuss the issues in this forum, at least for a while. ("sickness of heart" rung a bell with me!)
fine with me, Ex10, like I said, you gotta do what you gotta do
Heck, how do you spell judgemental? Judgmental? That can't be right.
OK, I’ll play the “Gap” role of the straight man. Anotherdan #70, you indeed won’t find too many supporters willing to push anything positive here because that involves risk. The risk of having to defend a position which may not be worth the effort of defending. I am sure there will be little new info. in my words, but I just thought I would jump in...the shark tank!
If you try and think of GreaseSpot as a hospital like in my posting #302865, you might come to the following conclusions:
@ This site is simply a retirement zone of former cult inmates, of people who basically hate (until the day they die!) Weirwelle and his Cult Business, The Way. If you don’t go along with that theology it’s either the “ignore” button, (formerly known by ex-cultists as mark & avoid) or they will do their best to destroy your argument by picking apart various parts of your response. It’s always the same and there is little tolerance for way brain detours.
* Many of these people appear to suffer from addictive/compulsive behavior. This site is not just a “home”, it’s almost their entire life outside of whatever else they do? (& don’t forget those sinister phantoms lurking in cyberland!) It’s a little like the “usual suspects” . You always know who is going to be there to attack, defend, quote a verse here and there, and finally, to give a response and get in the last rascal “word”. That’s very important, the last word. Hit on one of the ‘02’s or 03’s as an “outsider” and another will run to their emotional rescue. A little like cat and mouse soap opera.
# Sharks in a cesspool, again the usual sharks spewing the usual benefits of why they need to be here. That is answered by...”to help another poor unwitting soul who needs us to put his life back together” after having been exposed to (or thinking about going in) the evil The Way. In short, they are psychologists in their spare time, always ready to give a reassuring pat on the back...until they later bite your head off! (that comment is going to really drive some of them crazy!!)
% Mood Swingers are also very interesting to observe. In the morning over here, I watch the previous night’s blood bath between them & who has been ravaged by whom. (Mind you these are “christians”!) That’s fun! Another image is to think of the cesspool being a fish tank. First you are baptized at the counter, then the questions begin...AND the sharks are always curious and suspicious of anyone who is entering THEIR cult territorial waters! They want to know EVERYTHING! The mood swings are finally best visible in the aftermath of the carnage when feeding time is over, the bones have been licked, and they can get around to “hugging”, crying, and kissing each other!~ That’s fun to watch too!
& Never forget in the back of all this is always the hatred of VP & The Way. He is the DEVIL incarnate and the Way, His Ship of Commerce! (He may actually be more alive in death than he was walking around!!) Also any new “tidbits” of information no matter how bizarre or moronic, is food for the fish and vital for consumption and continued discussion (think of peeling an onion!). Cooking, Baseball, the Funnies, all of that is not front page news! Just another segment of the program to keep people entertained. Doctrine is reserved for life’s major problems, where people actually have to pray and seek out the god they say they have always been looking for. That’s the “serious” department!
$ So to wrap up this little sandwich, if you look at it maybe from God’s perspective, those avatar’s might just represent middle aged people, disguised as grease spots, trying to resolve their problems in the usual fashion of group therapy, and quoting bits and pieces of scripture along...the way! The Way for sure damaged many, and some good is being done with help on the table, but for the most part it’s just a cult re-hash of the corps past in a closed community box. A sad past of people who lost their dreams in a bible business which ground them up. And for some, Grease Spot maybe all they have, until possible they move on to a more productive way of spending their time.
^ And so the circus must go on with the usual suspects, trashing & bashing, analyzing TWI history of past details & experiences, hugging & crying, a few laughs & smilies, and all the rest. But when the lights go down & the music goes quiet, not much new will have been said or done. (Few will believe that statement)
(Conditioned Response again: Bumpy, why are you here? Answer: Entertainment, a laugh, (what’s more healthy in life than laughter?), a little interesting reading, some interaction & maybe meeting a few smart people who aren’t completely hung up on their “ill spent youth”!) Bless You All and again thanks for listening! :)
We now return you to normal Cyberspace soap opera operating mode and the “search” for the evil Mr. Geer...
For what it's worth, I didn't see Dan trying to give Dr. a free pass.
He seemed respectful, and willing to consider. I don't expect everyone to totally agree with everything I say or do here. If we all agreed - this would be a very boring and useless place.
It's the meeting of the minds here that has value. The processing of opinions and divergent views is how we grow.
I see several of us are up together, this morning. T-Bone, I appreciate the context you pointed out. Good of you to add to the conversation.
"But Now I See" I'm sorry that I appear that way to you; I certainly don't intend to be the kind of person you view me to be. But the "shame on you" is not working. As I said before, I took a risk. Now I have to accept the results of that risk, and I am OK with that. Will you accept my recommendation above, and revisit the thread with a view to inviting God to teach you something about yourself?
I suppose at this point it should be mentioned that the GreaseSpot cafe is NOT a Christian website.
Every poster in free to express their opinions (within the framework of the rules), and certainly Christian thought is appropriate within the context off these various threads...as are secular and non religious views.
That being said, it should be understood that many here are approaching this topic with a view of historical accuracy to the end of exposing factual information. Each person will respond differently to this information and understandably, emotions, passion and belief systems will come into play.
I am sure that many here will have an appreciation of "anotherDan"'s evangelical exortations with regards to this subject...as I am equally sure that others will not.
How you respond to this information is your business.
Personally, I approach the subject as I would if we were discussing Charles Manson, immoral pyramid schemes or the corruption in politics. I find nothing "unChristian" about bringing to light evils and deceptions that hurt people...in fact, I find the information in this particular thread to be both helpful to people and consistant with the purpose of this website.
If you believe that forgiving Mr. Wierwille for his behavior is the right thing to do...then do it...but the question that I pose is:
How can you forgive someone for something they did if you do not know about it?...In other words, the suppression of facts does not lend itself to making an informed decision in regards to your response to the actions of Mr. Wierwille and twi. If you keep your head buried in the sand under the idea of "judge not"...you are not being honest and "religious ideas" replace honest evaluation.
So many people have been hurt by twi...so many blaming themselves for what was not their fault, so many buying into deception...if God judges me for what I say on this website, I am willing to "take my lumps"...sometimes the truth is unpleasant but is important to be told if people are to learn and to recover.
and what was it that Peter said to Simon the sorceror when he tried to facilitate a false ministry?...or should we comment on Jesus' remarks to the pharisees?
Bumpy! you better be careful there... not all will get "where you're coming from"...
BTW, where are you coming from? ...which hemisphere are you in this week?
Hey Tom! Office hours are closing over here, so I thought I would help out a fellow poster who looked like he was being a bit way laid? Just trying to add a little to the thread! :)
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
39
28
46
60
Popular Days
Aug 6
89
Aug 5
64
Aug 7
52
Sep 5
42
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 39 posts
ex10 28 posts
Ham 46 posts
Larry N Moore 60 posts
Popular Days
Aug 6 2007
89 posts
Aug 5 2007
64 posts
Aug 7 2007
52 posts
Sep 5 2007
42 posts
Popular Posts
mamouda
Quote Teach. Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the
mamouda
I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing
mamouda
Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to
skyrider
dmiller.....yep, its true.
Just a brief timeline.......Wierwille received this motorcycle and sidecar in 1982. With this gift from the believers, vpw and mrs. wanted to do a few short trips to visit fellowships, get away from hq, etc.
I was working on hq staff during these years and this motorcycle was brought into the warehouse where it was tucked away behind a spray booth enclosure. Five or six guys -- mostly the Flight Services guys, the ones with detailing and spray painting/coating experience -- were involved in this extremely tight-lipped task to restore this motorcycle back to its original condition, or better. I saw vp's motorcycle in this booth and eye-witnessed that it had so damage (just in case someone here thinks its hearsay).
Apparently, wierwille was in Ontario and at a slow rate of speed laid the motorcycle over at an intersection. With the weight and all, it crumpled up the front fender and scuffed up the side and gas tank area. Again, no major damage.....but certainly, it needed repair and paint work.
Why such secrecy??? Why the cover-up??? IMO, .....again, it was just one of image and perception. Wierwille got what wierwille wanted.......and he must have sworn his aides and staff workers to silence.
I certainly found out in secret.......and was told to do likewise.
:unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah.....this understanding comes in layers, like peeling off the outer layers of an onion. And, the more one keeps peeling the layers away, the stronger the odor as one gets to its core.
Another thing about processing this information...........some of us corps invested DECADES into twi, moving here and there, taking corps assignments to help "move God's Word" and strengthen the ministry work. But when the cloak of wierwille's "ministry" and his personal life is viewed FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF TIME AND DISTANCE, it is disturbing to see the lies and deception.
THEN.........to see that once we've removed ourselves from this cult allegiance, our endeavors to reconnect with our parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc. More than likely, our grandparents died and we didn't even go to the funerals.....since we followed the mog's rules.
Yeah.........it's MY life now.
Sometimes, I'm reminded of that song.......where the lyrics go, "He can't even run his own life, be d@mned if he'll run MINE.
That's how I feel today.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
The context of Matthew 7: 1 "Judge not, lest ye be judged" does not indicate a blanket prohibition on all judging – just self-righteous, hypocritical judging. For as you read on you'll find we're expected to use good judgment in a few situations: use honest criteria for self-evaluation and in counseling others [verses 2-5], know the difference between those who are antagonistic to the gospel and those who are receptive [verse 6], know when to ask, seek, and knock [verses 7-11], evaluate how you treat others by the Golden Rule [verse 12], know difference between the wide and narrow gate [verses 13,14], identify false prophets and false brethren [verses 15-27].
Judgment of someone's heart, intentions or destiny is God's job. But the exercise of good moral judgment is definitely a responsibility of Christians – as evident in the case of the Corinthians who allowed blatant immorality to defile their church – Paul had to exhort them to judge those inside the church – those outside God judges . vpw and TWI would always expect people to sever the connection between the eyeballs and the conscience – get people to doubt their own powers of discernment. I imagine IF the kind of moral uprightness that Paul called for in I Corinthians, expecting people to submit to the moral demands of Scripture – was active during vpw's ministry – things may have turned out completely different – as we read of the good that came from Paul's reproof in II Corinthians...But no - no one ever confronted him - the people closest to him that knew of his ways - and kissed his a$$ - were in charge of covering up his sins to maintain that pristine man-o-god persona.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Just a clarification:
Those people vpw was willing to listen to- those people chose to keep silence or to partake in the evil deeds.
There WERE those who confronted vpw and others about the evil.
vpw's response was to kick them out, ostracize them, and savage their reputations so no one would listen to them,
and try to shatter their self-esteem so they would remain silent.
That's been pretty established- it happened to more than a few women.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Hey Another Dan, you should be thankful that VP was not into sex with other men and decided to drug you and rape you, then discredit you and sent you off into your own private hell of shame and condemnation, friendless, with no means of support. I believe that very thing has happened to some of "sisters" here.
Maybe if that had happened to you, you might feel differently about this topic. Could you imagine being a shy, soft hearted woman and these things happening to you, how quickly would you get over it, if ever.
Maybe the good of the few, outweighs the benefits toward the image of the organization of TWI and VP, the perpetrator, in contrast to whatever logic you seem to apply here in efforts to silence and censure us, but instead you scold and mock us! If there was no deceit there would be no reason to unveil it here.
How dare you claim we here are being judgmental when some of hearts were ripped out because of the way we were treated or from things done to us. Shame on you! Some of us have been carrying burdens for almost 20 years, you should consider yourself lucky you are not named among them, rather, you should do all you can to shepherd and heal the flock.
How smug you are to think that what you experienced and feel is what everyone else has, how convenient
for you.
Don't be throwing God's name or scriptures around until you comprehend and understand what God's heart for an individual really is, the people here are God's, they deserve answers and the truth.
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Great point bnis..I have often wondered if those proclaiming vpw`s praises the loudest had been bent over a chair...or one of their sons whom reported to the mog expecting to learn great spiritual insight.....had been degraded and thrown away.... if their opinion of him might be different.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Dooj, I appreciate your courtesy, and want to extend the same to you. I want it to be authentic compassion, not just rhetorical device. I want to join WITH you against evil. I suppose I "processed" in my sleep last night, because although I have a work week to begin, I’m typing over my first cup of coffee, having awoken with a burden.
"Processing" is a cool postmodern (and I would guess post-Freudian) word. Our friends locally have been lately on a certain "processing" kick that is quite a different "process." It has to do with the visitation of memories; I would call it "brutal visitation." That is, they dare to go fully to their pain, whether it is child abuse, sexual abuse, or whatever. The idea is that we tend to repress memories that make us uncomfortable, and thereby accept the conclusions we reached about it as a child. In other words, in a vulnerable state, we are traumatized, and never revisit the situation once we are a little more grown up. And we then live out our lives in sometimes outrageously disfunctional ways as a result. The "friend" (not a technical term… it just sounds more correct to call them that rather than "subject" or "the one being worked on") is encouraged to really feel what they are feeling. They might be asked, "how did you feel when this was occurring?" "If that feeling could cry out, what would it say?" Believe me, some of these "fellowships" with people taking the time to support one another, not challenge or marginalize the other’s feelings, etc., can be extremely distressing. Distress is not the goal, of course. Healing is. God is "invited" (I know, as if He needs an invitation… and yet how often we "process" without Him!) into that memory. What would God have us know about that situation? Where was God, what was God "feeling" when it occurred to us? That type of thing. Their may be some waiting for the answer. It may not come in that session, or only in small ways. Sometimes it comes very very powerfully, and provides profound resolution. God being sovereign, and obviously beyond us, may say the unexpected.
From a merely psychological point of view, this type of honest revisitation seems potentially profitable to me. It allows the person to examine events and their childhood reactions and possibly lifelong convictions that shaped them and made them who they are today. The value lies in being willing, with our "adult" minds, to reconsider the situation. Example: a person may have been deeply wounded by the fact that their mother worked nights, slept during the day, and neglected them when they were a child.
A good introduction to this kind of ministry is The Life Model: Living with the heart Jesus gave you, by Wilder. He distinguishes "Type 1 trauma" from "Type 2." One is a passive trauma, such as neglect, whereas the other is actual infliction of trauma. Either can be devastating.
But from a spiritual point of view, "allowing" God in the process opens it up to even greater results, and we have seen them. The supporting roles of friends who simply care and who are willing to "go there with you" can be a time-consuming sacrifice, but what are friends for? Care is taken not to "correct" the friend, and pains are taken not to be "the mouthpiece" of God for that person, to analyze, diagnose, or otherwise interfere with their own receiving from God "the answer," or His wisdom. This is done with an authentic belief that God is quite capable of reaching us in the deepest hell. It has the significant benefit of real progress (healing), because if someone hears it from me, they may only "be convinced." But if they themselves hear it from God, well, "that settles it."
Not long ago, I would scoff at such an exercise. (Being honest here!) The results have sometimes been dramatic, sometimes progressive. I am, however, an unfinished work, and my harsher, less compassionate former stance is softening. WordWolf’s long post, just above, seems detestable to me – character assassination, pure and simple, finely honed over years and thousands of posts at the GSC. I also suspect lying spirits to be among us. But it is possible that this form of revisiting certain pain can have positive benefits, I suppose. Honestly, I don’t know. Trying to be fair and open-minded in a good sense, maybe this "process" will help and has helped some people. I suppose another 20 years will pass, and WordWolf or his/her successor will have the story more finely tuned and filled out as others add what they "saw," and as others come forward with new details and anecdotes. Will that be helpful?
It’s been suggested here and there by the anti-anti’s that if the most venomous accusers’ lives were as open to scrutiny as his was, they would probably not compare favorably to him. I can’t help suspecting that to be true, too. The reply usually runs, "yeah, but I didn't (blah blah... citing the worst sins that have been proven to their satisfaction.)" Those who reply that way are unlikely to be moved by Jesus' words about being angry with a brother, which is akin to murder. Like other religious people, they will reply that they are angry for a reason (not "without a cause.")
My suggestion is definitely to authentically "invite God" into "the process." There are as many ways to do this as there are post-ers here, I suppose, but here is a walk-through of one concrete method.
Go back to the beginning and read all these posts again (this is a short thread, comparatively!) Don’t bother judging others, but allow their words to serve as a context for your own. When you get to your posts, stop and ask your Father what He thinks about your post. Ask Him to reveal your own heartstrings to you. Just ask for His input, and then wait on Him. Authentically listen. He may surprise you and show up.
Some of you still confess Jesus as your Lord, and have no problem asking him directly, while others feel it doesn’t work that way, and have to "ask God directly." Either way is fine. Others deny God altogether, and yet, even you can do the exercise and ask yourself, "is this who I really am, or do I desire to change?" or even, "is this the reality I choose to represent?"
On one level, I agree with ex10 that the beauty of this place is the liberty to think for ourselves, to hold our own convictions and not be pressured by others into conforming with their belief system. (I hope I’m representing you fairly, Ex!) As more of an anti-anti, I’ve been given latitude and courtesy, and I thank you and the folks as GSC for it. I truly hope that each of you can enter into the kind of rest that God has offered in Jesus Christ, and if in some way I can be there for you, please let me know.
Wilder’s book is based on the theme of growing up with one another, and encourages a community of faith that lives with the heart Jesus gave it. It’s a good model, but not the only one. In my opinion, it’s definitely worth a look, especially for you, Dooj. Such a community could be encouraged online as well as locally. You seem to be a person who wants to "get" another. I’m with you on that. We treasure the friends that "get" us, don’t we? They show up when we don’t "want" them to, but when we need them to! They don’t argue with what we’re feeling; they understand. They love us. Good stuff!
got to find the lyrics of that song, "Seen Enough."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I see several of us are up together, this morning. T-Bone, I appreciate the context you pointed out. Good of you to add to the conversation.
"But Now I See" I'm sorry that I appear that way to you; I certainly don't intend to be the kind of person you view me to be. But the "shame on you" is not working. As I said before, I took a risk. Now I have to accept the results of that risk, and I am OK with that. Will you accept my recommendation above, and revisit the thread with a view to inviting God to teach you something about yourself?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Hey Another, I just read your post stating you think I was starting rumors, I'm not, my sources are:
1) A 3rd Corps person sent on the field in '78 from a life at HQ's for the very reason I stated; I got the info from their own mouth, plus it was substanciated by others.
2) I read that info here, from a reliable source, someone who eye witnessed it.
3) I only backed down because I did not want to reveal my source, but since you are accusing me of rumor mongering, the source was from someone at the Trustee level at TWI, who had at least the same status as Geer probably more, who does have an inflated ego of himself, but I do believe it was accurate. No rumors here, just didn't tell all I knew.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Dan, that is only fair.....might I respectfully ask of you the same thing? That there is a possibly God is at work on a number of different levels here for people :)
I think that is one of the traps we (all of us) tend to fall into post twi....expecting to all be on the same page ...that if someone isn`t seeing things the way we do....they are dead wrong.
Dan your imput is of value, your persective apreciated.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Just read your next comment, you offend me, you are insufferable in your ignorance, I am done with argueing with you, thanks for derailing this thread.
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I offer the following without endorsing all the views of Stephen Stills, as a humorous respite from the serious issue at hand, and to demonstrate that I'm not just a bibleverse slinging Wordhead. It never got any airtime, but it's musically and lyrically powerful. You've got to hear him sing it!
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Seen Enough Lyrics
(Stephen Stills)
I lost my innocence over intolerance
All the indignities heaped on the black man
We went to church they all prayed for the white man
The cops and the preachers
Were most of 'em in the Klan
What's a kid s'posed to think when the adults
Are all such hypocrites impossibly smug
I have seen enough
I have seen enough of this
Had enough
Quite enough, I swear
The next generation, the woodstock nation
A little bit flaky, but no hesitation
Stop the war, it wasn't worth dyin' for
The paranoia of the cold warriors
Arrogant old men with domino theories
Fractured fairy tales tryin' to kill me
I have seen enough
I have seen enough of this
I have read enough
History to see right through this
You got outcast upset
People you never met
Locked in the basement
Hot-wired to the net
Isolated, infuriated
The punchline to the joke
Is how they are gonna smoke
Every last stuck-up snob ever dissed them
Look in their eyes how could you miss them
Ain't you seen enough
I have seen enough of this
I've had quite enough
Seen enough
We got dead-eyed, dead drunk
Dead stupid cyberpunks
Fed-up killer geeks
Gigabyte meth freaks
Home alone in a world of their own
Up all night in the thick of the fight
Fantasy combat, veteran psychos
Removed from reality by silicon diodes
Seen enough
I have seen enough of this
Have you read enough
So, you don't know nothin' about it
You got powerbook potentates
Pointedly obviate
Every opinion
They have about anything
Even if they don't know [expletive]
Stay in the limelight
Got your own website
Got all the answers, ain't got a lick of sense
Practicing psychiatry without a license
Ain't you seen enough
Had enough of this
I have had enough
Ain't it bad enough for you yet
So you got overfed
Talking heads on television
Ignoring the obvious with pained expressions
Ask the ones that sell the damn guns
By the truckload every day
Fast as they can make 'em
What's a kid s'posed to think
When the adults
Refuse all accountability
When they [expletive] up
Ain't you seen enough
Ain't you had enough of this
Goddam tired enough
Have we done enough about this
I have seen enough
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
OK, I've GOT to go to work! Rascal, thank you. Yes, I concede that without reservation. I have a LOT of difficulty with your posts, sometimes, as you can imagine, but I'm also convinced that you are a sister who is doing her best to work out her own wholeness, and to assist others to do the same. I would gladly take your hand and pray with you. You're a compassionate person, and I admire you for that.
"But Now I See", if you don't see that some of the stuff you've posted qualify as rumors, you need a dictionary or something. Put me on Ignore.
edit: derailing this thread? I'm obviously not posting what you as the thread starter wants to hear, but I'm perfectly ON TOPIC, in my opinion. I'll leave if you request. It's your thread.
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yeah but aren`t we all at some point bnis?? At some point we change because a somebody cares enough to gently point us in the direction towards understanding???
That was an awfully nice thing to say Dan :) Because I can see that you are a caring person (not just cause you were nice to me lol) Your attempts to be gentle alow me to consider your pov without being offended.
How about though.... we comment on the topic at hand dan....whether or not vpw was a false prophet or a minister gone bad?
See it is vitally important for some of us to understand in order to heal...in order to regain that which was stolen from us. There is a whole issue about being able to trust God at stake wrapped up for us in understanding this.
If you want to start a thread on how wrong it is for us to annalyze the fruit in vp`s life, that would be apropriate and I would gladly debate you on that subject rather than to further derail a fruitfull discussion on THIS one :)
I was serious when I said that we all hold a piece of the puzzle and can help one another understand.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I really should bow out. Of all of it. Maybe hang out in "doctrine" a little, when I can. I wish you all well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Dan, doctrine is great. Enjoy :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
It's nice that you've found something that works for you anotherDan... really... and your posts are well constructed and well thought out... they're very reminicent of the structure and type that we learned in residence in "Christian Motivational Techniques"... (which (IMO) had very little to do with 'Christian')... I certainly wouldn't take you to task for having your own opinions on all of this but I do have a problem with all of your inference and innuendo of where folks are coming from or what spirit they might be influenced by...
I suppose that I could take your posts and point that out one by one but that would take a lot more time because there's so much... anyway, they are very slick posts, I'll give my two cents worth on just this one point though...
I think it will. There are folks who come here who have spent years and years in "the TWI mindset" (whether they're in or out), folks who live in a dreamworld constructed and built by TWI that have no idea that this stuff went on. I think if TWI spent 50 years "branding" peoples minds and hearts we can spend a few lines of bandwidth exposing what went on in the dark underbelly of TWI that many never knew existed. Sure... none of us are without fault(s) and sin(s)... but then none of us set up an entire ministry to feed our lusts... (at least I don't think so) ...and I think that's a big difference between us and veepee...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
OK, I’ll play the “Gap” role of the straight man. Anotherdan #70, you indeed won’t find too many supporters willing to push anything positive here because that involves risk. The risk of having to defend a position which may not be worth the effort of defending. I am sure there will be little new info. in my words, but I just thought I would jump in...the shark tank!
If you try and think of GreaseSpot as a hospital like in my posting #302865, you might come to the following conclusions:
@ This site is simply a retirement zone of former cult inmates, of people who basically hate (until the day they die!) Weirwelle and his Cult Business, The Way. If you don’t go along with that theology it’s either the “ignore” button, (formerly known by ex-cultists as mark & avoid) or they will do their best to destroy your argument by picking apart various parts of your response. It’s always the same and there is little tolerance for way brain detours.
* Many of these people appear to suffer from addictive/compulsive behavior. This site is not just a “home”, it’s almost their entire life outside of whatever else they do? (& don’t forget those sinister phantoms lurking in cyberland!) It’s a little like the “usual suspects” . You always know who is going to be there to attack, defend, quote a verse here and there, and finally, to give a response and get in the last rascal “word”. That’s very important, the last word. Hit on one of the ‘02’s or 03’s as an “outsider” and another will run to their emotional rescue. A little like cat and mouse soap opera.
# Sharks in a cesspool, again the usual sharks spewing the usual benefits of why they need to be here. That is answered by...”to help another poor unwitting soul who needs us to put his life back together” after having been exposed to (or thinking about going in) the evil The Way. In short, they are psychologists in their spare time, always ready to give a reassuring pat on the back...until they later bite your head off! (that comment is going to really drive some of them crazy!!)
% Mood Swingers are also very interesting to observe. In the morning over here, I watch the previous night’s blood bath between them & who has been ravaged by whom. (Mind you these are “christians”!) That’s fun! Another image is to think of the cesspool being a fish tank. First you are baptized at the counter, then the questions begin...AND the sharks are always curious and suspicious of anyone who is entering THEIR cult territorial waters! They want to know EVERYTHING! The mood swings are finally best visible in the aftermath of the carnage when feeding time is over, the bones have been licked, and they can get around to “hugging”, crying, and kissing each other!~ That’s fun to watch too!
& Never forget in the back of all this is always the hatred of VP & The Way. He is the DEVIL incarnate and the Way, His Ship of Commerce! (He may actually be more alive in death than he was walking around!!) Also any new “tidbits” of information no matter how bizarre or moronic, is food for the fish and vital for consumption and continued discussion (think of peeling an onion!). Cooking, Baseball, the Funnies, all of that is not front page news! Just another segment of the program to keep people entertained. Doctrine is reserved for life’s major problems, where people actually have to pray and seek out the god they say they have always been looking for. That’s the “serious” department!
$ So to wrap up this little sandwich, if you look at it maybe from God’s perspective, those avatar’s might just represent middle aged people, disguised as grease spots, trying to resolve their problems in the usual fashion of group therapy, and quoting bits and pieces of scripture along...the way! The Way for sure damaged many, and some good is being done with help on the table, but for the most part it’s just a cult re-hash of the corps past in a closed community box. A sad past of people who lost their dreams in a bible business which ground them up. And for some, Grease Spot maybe all they have, until possible they move on to a more productive way of spending their time.
^ And so the circus must go on with the usual suspects, trashing & bashing, analyzing TWI history of past details & experiences, hugging & crying, a few laughs & smilies, and all the rest. But when the lights go down & the music goes quiet, not much new will have been said or done. (Few will believe that statement)
(Conditioned Response again: Bumpy, why are you here? Answer: Entertainment, a laugh, (what’s more healthy in life than laughter?), a little interesting reading, some interaction & maybe meeting a few smart people who aren’t completely hung up on their “ill spent youth”!) Bless You All and again thanks for listening! :)
We now return you to normal Cyberspace soap opera operating mode and the “search” for the evil Mr. Geer...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Bumpy! you better be careful there... not all will get "where you're coming from"...
BTW, where are you coming from? ...which hemisphere are you in this week?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
For what it's worth, I didn't see Dan trying to give Dr. a free pass.
He seemed respectful, and willing to consider. I don't expect everyone to totally agree with everything I say or do here. If we all agreed - this would be a very boring and useless place.
It's the meeting of the minds here that has value. The processing of opinions and divergent views is how we grow.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I suppose at this point it should be mentioned that the GreaseSpot cafe is NOT a Christian website.
Every poster in free to express their opinions (within the framework of the rules), and certainly Christian thought is appropriate within the context off these various threads...as are secular and non religious views.
That being said, it should be understood that many here are approaching this topic with a view of historical accuracy to the end of exposing factual information. Each person will respond differently to this information and understandably, emotions, passion and belief systems will come into play.
I am sure that many here will have an appreciation of "anotherDan"'s evangelical exortations with regards to this subject...as I am equally sure that others will not.
How you respond to this information is your business.
Personally, I approach the subject as I would if we were discussing Charles Manson, immoral pyramid schemes or the corruption in politics. I find nothing "unChristian" about bringing to light evils and deceptions that hurt people...in fact, I find the information in this particular thread to be both helpful to people and consistant with the purpose of this website.
If you believe that forgiving Mr. Wierwille for his behavior is the right thing to do...then do it...but the question that I pose is:
How can you forgive someone for something they did if you do not know about it?...In other words, the suppression of facts does not lend itself to making an informed decision in regards to your response to the actions of Mr. Wierwille and twi. If you keep your head buried in the sand under the idea of "judge not"...you are not being honest and "religious ideas" replace honest evaluation.
So many people have been hurt by twi...so many blaming themselves for what was not their fault, so many buying into deception...if God judges me for what I say on this website, I am willing to "take my lumps"...sometimes the truth is unpleasant but is important to be told if people are to learn and to recover.
and what was it that Peter said to Simon the sorceror when he tried to facilitate a false ministry?...or should we comment on Jesus' remarks to the pharisees?
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
Hey Tom! Office hours are closing over here, so I thought I would help out a fellow poster who looked like he was being a bit way laid? Just trying to add a little to the thread! :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Snort...and just how much time do YOU spend here Bumpy in order to draw these conclusions on people that you have never met??? LOL
You don`t know us, and you don`t understand us, therefor it seems you must critisize and try to Bully.
Nice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.