False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?

[Dot Matrix]

I can understand becoming wealthy AFTER you sell the farm, but most farmers are not VERY WEALTHY.

It just caught my attention.

Okay, so his Dad sent him to the school of the church denomination of which they belonged...

[Dot Matrix]

IMHO

If his family WAS VERY WEALTHY and he had opportunities available to him, and made a choice to be a minister, when other lucrative avenues were available, then maybe he did NOT start out evil but became corrupt.

Because he could have been a lawyer, or a shrink or anything that made money. He could have gone into politics which would have given him power, maybe becoming a minister was a noble desire, maybe becoming a poor minister is what broke him. Giving up the rich life for the Lord then becoming poor....

Then, imho, he was just very weak, easily led away from God to his own lusts and perversions. If he had MANY choices, then I do not think he was evil from the concept of his ministry but rather fell.

That is of course, if he was VERY WEALTHY

I had thought, and seen argued here, that there were not many opportunities for a young man so he became a minister, kinda like a thing to do rather than a choice among many other great choices that would have been available to the VERY WEALTHY.

I never read he was a VERY WEALTHY farm boy.

Now, if that was not true, if he was not VERY WEALTHY, then it adds to my vision of him as a liar, and I believe it is another brick in the lie and he started evil to lure people into his "money" snare and perversions.

I just find this interesting.

Again, IMHO

Edited for clarity

Edited September 9, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[WordWolf]

Seriously, doesn't this bother anyone?

Yes, but I don't log in every 20 minutes, and thus can often need to wait up to 24 hours to find something,

let alone reply to it.

He says be gentle

Then exhorts himself and calls people who do not "get" his teachings -- stupid

This is so typical of the TWI mind screw

Like when I went to him to confront him about the adultry, free sex, sex with leaders is okay because you are sevicing them -- CRAP

He told me, "whatsoever things are pure think on those things--"

Like I did not get it

"To the pure all things are pure"

As if I was not pure because I thought the "antics" and "practices" were NOT pure therefore I was stupid and unpure... Otherwise, I would embrace his "ideas" He could not be corrected.

Afterall, if you did not get his teachings YOU ARE STUPID.

Yes, I can see how gentle you were with people who questioned you --- Geez

This was also the same man who said THE WORST THING you can do after

he's taught is to go up and ask him a question.

That's because he's not "apt to teach."

When I teach, I can go for hours. I can use up all my allotted time, and announce

we're stopping only because we ran out of time to go any further-

and have some of the people stay for further discussion with me until I announce we

have to leave. After I teach, I have no problem being asked a question.

(Providing, of course, it's an honest question, and not someone just throwing

something in to be difficult, to amuse themself.) I may not be the best teacher

in the world, but, apparently, I'm more "apt to teach" than vpw was.

And he was getting paid to do it- generally I teach for the joy of it, and to educate

others eager to learn.

[WordWolf]

"Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach

that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the subject I’ve taught.

And I expect everybody here to understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach. "

vpw didn't UNDERSTAND teaching. vpw was not TRAINED to teach. vpw was trained in

HOMILETICS. In homiletics, yo get up on the pulpit, tell stories and convey morals,

and everyone's supposed to sit and agree with them. There's no blackboard, there's

no bullet-points, there's no note-taking. Just "this one talks, and those ones nod and

agree."

In teaching, there's a dialogue. Sometimes the TEACHER learns as well. It's been said that

one of the best ways to learn something is to attempt to teach it. There can be surprises,

there can be disagreements, but there's a 2-way process. Otherwise, how do you know

they're actually thinking and learning rather than memorizing and regurgitating?

I had a pair of exchanges with a professor back in college. Once, he was covering something

on weather, and said that hurricanes north of the equator spin in one direction

(counter-clockwise?) and south of the equator they spin in the other direction (clockwise?),

and that the toilets drain in the same direction- spinning one way north of the equator,

and south they spun the other way. I immediately raised my hand, and asked about toilets

placed ON the equator. He replied that the just break down and don't spin.

He then admitted the toilet comments were not true-I beat him to the punchline.

Hurricanes DO spin that way, but toilets, being smaller, all spin in the same direction due to

the mechanics of plumbing overriding weather patterns when on that small a scale.

However, apparently, I was the only student who raised his hand at that point, which said

something about the rest of the class was at that moment.

Another time, he made a dry joke, and there was the requisite groaning among the students.

He mumbled a note to himself not to make bad jokes. I ran up to him afterwards, and pointed

out the groaning meant the students were WITH him and understood what he was saying-

and that's a good sign. Whether the joke was laughed at or groaned was secondary to

them following the lecture.

Sometimes, a good teacher has to note when he or she is pushing too HARD, since humans

can only learn so much, so fast before it's just sounds and syllables to them.

(Their brain is full.)

vpw, however, expected the students to always be ready to learn everything, even if he

worked them short of sleep and exhausted from manual labour.

Sometimes, something has been phrased to form a specific problem for a student, even

one paying close attention. A long time ago, I overheard a teacher attempt to explain

something involving decimals while teaching fraction conversions. The effect was to cause

me to think the comment was germane to fraction conversions, which meant I followed

incorrect instructions to perform the operations. But I was following what that same teacher

said. Poor communication for a moment led to a misunderstanding.

I had a similar problem when beginning the "Listening with a Purpose" questions in pfal.

I understood session 1 completely, and had even taken notes all across the session.

However, I found the first question awkwardly phrased, and I was unclear what was meant.

We had 3 types of believing, so when asked about the "2 types", I wasn't sure.

However, when the person running it rephrased the question and asked about the

"2 SIDES" of believing, I understood what was being asked. Again, was that me

being a poor student? I think miscommunication can be honest, and still be an impediment

to any lesson of any kind.

========

On the other hand,

"no questions" may be an acceptable goal with a homily, but with any lesson of consequence,

there can be many questions-often perfectly legitimate ones.

In the case of my lecture as a student, I posed a perfectly-legitimate question about

exactly what the professor was teaching about. Another time, I was in a Psychology class

discussing "the 3 Jesuses of Ypsilanti", where 1 Psychologist found 3 men who had the

delusion that they were Jesus Christ himself, and brought them together in the same room.

The professor picked that moment to change subjects. At the next chance to ask a question,

I asked what the result was when the 3 men were brought together.

(Nothing-each one remained convinced HE was the REAL Jesus.) It was a fair question,

and how GOOD the professor was (and he was pretty good) had nothing to do with me

having a question. Personally, I'm disappointed nobody else had wanted to know.

vpw lacked understanding of that- how questions can illuminate aspects not discussed,

and bring in new insights, new observations, new questions for further study not

previously raised. As such, some of the most apt STUDENTS may have the MOST

questions-because they DID understand the teacher.

Why was vpw loathe to entertain questions?

Was it laziness, or isinterest in the individual students?

Did it cover up a lack of sufficient understanding to discuss outside of the homiletic format?

Sadly, we'll never know for sure.

We know there are no POSITIVE reasons to stifle and suppress questions categorically...

"So, when I teach, I expect people t understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid."

Nice "False Dilemma".

If you have any questions, then it's because you didn't understand. (Sometimes false.)

P -> Q.

If you "didn't understand" what he's teaching,then you're stupid.

Q-> R.

Therefore,

if you have any questions when he teaches, then you're stupid.

P -> R.

Since the initial conclusion is false, the entire logic equation is faulty, however.

Then again, whether or not he was actually RIGHT was of less concern to vpw than if he

was AGREED WITH.

[WordWolf]

It seems that, as usual, vpw's story of who he was and what he told people

changed over the years and with who he was telling it to.

As of 1970/1971 (the way:living in love),

vpw grew up on a farm and was assigned chores (which he avoided doing).

According to Uncle Harry, they all walked a mile to the same schoolhouse.

(No "family drove them there in 5 minutes", which is one sign of conspicuous

wealth.) pg-77.

Uncle Harry, pg-79, on growing up on the farm.

"But that's the way we were brought up years ago. Our German people were not afraid of work.

I guess that stays with you."

vpw himself, pg-174, on his plans as a youngster.

"First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer; but by my junior year in college, I had

my heart set on the ministry."

Interesting how he later told some of the corps here that he had originally considered

the business field, and the entertainment field, then later decided on the ministry.

From "Born Again to Serve", pg-36.

""I'd had the best education money could buy; but with all that I knew, I just could not help people. I was discouraged the first year in the ministry, 1941-42. I thought, 'Had my dad spent all that money to educate a fool?' "

I'm having trouble laying my hands on the exact quote this minute of what his dad said

about school, and which one they supported.

Maybe someone can beat me to it.

We know that vpw commonly referred to anything HE did as either the FIRST or the BEST.

Thus, his education was the BEST, and so on.

"Uncle Harry" went into the furniture/ upholstery business.

VP's brother Reuben became a hog farmer.

There is nothing wrong with either of these vocations but they are a bit unusual pursuits for someone who grew up "wealthy".

Seems vpw grew up on a family farm, the entire family had chores,

and he decided that he preferred to go to school rather than inherit the farm.

How rich COULD this farm have been?

In the early 70s, they supposedly grew up working hard on a farm,

and that's how they knew these students with their reluctance to perform manual labor,

were off.

In the 80s, he grew up affluent, almost-rich.

vpw's life just got bigger and bigger with each retelling.

If he was still alive today, he probably would now be saying he was born in a log cabin,

and angels periodically brought portents he was going to be special....

[Dot Matrix]

Yes, but I don't log in every 20 minutes, and thus can often need to wait up to 24 hours to find something,

let alone reply to it.

WW

:)

[Dot Matrix]

Thanks WW for your posts.

I was not born into great wealth but my Dad's friends were. Their kids and I would ski together and hangout at the parties.

ALL of THEM went to private schools and then on to expensive top of the line colleges. Their high school graduation gifts were things like Porsches.

One girl and I have stayed friendly. She graduated from the best schools and married a cardiologist. She got a great start on life.

In all of those parties, and with all the wealthy people I met, the rich gave their children a great start in life with a GREAT education.

VP's life does NOT fit with what I have known.

So, if he told us he was a hard-working farm kid, then he was not VERY WEALTHY, or his very wealthy family was very different than the ones I knew/know

I also thought I heard him say in the early 70's he was born into a hard working farm family.

I did not know about the two teaching styles other than "preaching" was always different than "teaching".

So, even in this post, by his own words:

THE SEVEN CHARACTERISTICS

OF A FAITHFUL MINISTER

we can see contradictions, exaggerations and/or lies.

[Oakspear]

WW, I think the quote from Wierwille's dad about school was in TW:LIL - something about sending him to Lakland/Mission House because that's the school whose missionary program they supported.

[Dot Matrix]

Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid.

Look at the above here he connects he teacing is GOD's (teaching)

So if God gave him the enablements, and I have a question, I am challanging GOD AND I am stupid

Oh, and so many people here still think he did not LEAD us into "cult like" lemming thinking --

Pretty obviously he did, and this is just ONE of his little ole teachings....

Just like the twisting, making people afraid to leave TWI, because then we are living outside the will of GOD

If I question VP, I am stupid afterall he gets his stuff from God, so if I do not think it is right -- I am going against God and his special enabled teacher...

[waysider]

There is a place in Piffle where he uses essentially the same technique.

It may be the "new birth" session but I'm not sure.

He says something like, "If a man wants to be STUPID it's his prerogative.", implying that if you are in disagreement with what he is saying at that point, you must be "STUPID!"

I am pretty sure it is also in the PFAL book as well.

Perhaps one of the posters who is more familiar with the intricacies of piffle can offer more detailed information.

[Larry N Moore]

There is a place in Piffle where he uses essentially the same technique.

It may be the "new birth" session but I'm not sure.

He says something like, "If a man wants to be STUPID it's his prerogative.", implying that if you are in disagreement with what he is saying at that point, you must be "STUPID!"

I am pretty sure it is also in the PFAL book as well.

Perhaps one of the posters who is more familiar with the intricacies of piffle can offer more detailed information.

Actually waysider it's in the manifestation section. He quotes verse 38 of 1 Corinthians 14 and then says: Paul says, in effect, "I have certainly, and by commandment of the Lord, clearly set forth the character and use of the manifestations from the Holy spirit within the Church, the fellowship of believers, and in one's own personal life. Now, if any man still wants to be ignorant after all of this, in spite of the fact that God has said we are not to be ignorant of spiritual things, let the man be ignorant." So what he was doing is paraphrasing what Paul said in that verse. Would you say he was wrong (in the paraphrasing)?

[Ham]

hmm. was he technically wrong? I don't know if I can answer that..

but.. I think "if any man be ignorant (of vic's interpretation of Paul's writings) let him be forever the ignoramus he was destined to be" to be what he was really saying.

[Larry N Moore]

hmm. was he technically wrong? I don't know if I can answer that..

Say no more. If you don't know if he was technically wrong anything else would be wasted bandwidth.

[skyrider]

We know that vpw commonly referred to anything HE did as either the FIRST or the BEST.

Thus, his education was the BEST, and so on.

Seems vpw grew up on a family farm, the entire family had chores,

and he decided that he preferred to go to school rather than inherit the farm.

How rich COULD this farm have been?

In the early 70s, they supposedly grew up working hard on a farm,

and that's how they knew these students with their reluctance to perform manual labor,

were off.

In the 80s, he grew up affluent, almost-rich.

vpw's life just got bigger and bigger with each retelling.

If he was still alive today, he probably would now be saying he was born in a log cabin,

and angels periodically brought portents he was going to be special....

As I remember it.......the wierwille homestead was 147 acres.

That is LESS than 1/4 section of land.....or 160 acres. When someone farms 1 mile by 1 mile, that is equivalent of 640 acres or a section of land. I personally know a couple of farmers out west (farming operations) where the farmer owns OVER 50 sections of land ( 50 X 640 acres).

Yeah.....the wierwille farm was in the 1920s/30s..........but I wouldn't call that affluent.

I mean, yeah.....the wierwilles might have been one of the bigger farmers in the New Knoxville area, when one looks across fence after fence at the neighbors. But clearly, that doesn't come anywhere near the vicinity of wealthy.

Just seems like everything out of wierwille's mouth has to be taken with a grain of salt, or dirt. <_<

And, yeah......bragging and exaggerating seems to have run deep in the wierwille gene pool.

[waysider]

Actually waysider it's in the manifestation section. He quotes verse 38 of 1 Corinthians 14 and then says: Paul says, in effect, "I have certainly, and by commandment of the Lord, clearly set forth the character and use of the manifestations from the Holy spirit within the Church, the fellowship of believers, and in one's own personal life. Now, if any man still wants to be ignorant after all of this, in spite of the fact that God has said we are not to be ignorant of spiritual things, let the man be ignorant." So what he was doing is paraphrasing what Paul said in that verse. Would you say he was wrong (in the paraphrasing)?

I believe you may be confusing VPW's sarcastic, derogatory barbs with the process of paraphrasing.

[Larry N Moore]

I believe you may be confusing VPW's sarcastic, derogatory barbs with the process of paraphrasing.

How so?

[waysider]

How so?

You never quit with this question nonsense, do you?

[Ham]

Say no more. If you don't know if he was technically wrong anything else would be wasted bandwidth.

actually, the thought was.. it isn't exactly relevant whether he was "right" at any given point or not..

I've had my share of being beaten over the head with "rightness"..

[Larry N Moore]

You never quit with this question nonsense, do you?

Well, dude you made an unsupported assertion. If you don't want to elaborate on it then that's fine with me.

[Dot Matrix]

When I spoke with Rev. JD before he died, I asked him many questions from a historical point of view - he and several others were the main players/founders of the Jesus Movement. I wanted to know the history before the ones God called were gone.

He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.

JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.

When VP made his famous trip to SF that summer, I was astounded to learn (well.. I guess I really shouldn't have been), that VP spent his free time at the SF porno theaters. Right, really comitted to outreach he was - Not.

VP just targeted the 5 "leaders" of the movement. If he could get some of them, he figured he was on his way.

VP also earlier, fellowshipped with what later were called the Tulsa renegade preachers - all the people he knew, Stiles, Clark, Star Daily, Rufus Mosely, etc. were of this group. After WWII when the country started prospering, they all felt they could make more money if they started their own ministries. Most of them did. VP did too.

I believe it became VP's quest to find something he could market. He wasn't bright enough, or Christian enough to write his own books from his own insights and relationship with God. That's why, when he ran across BG Leonard and his class and was so excited about it, it was because - eureka - I've found my goldmine.

For most people who enjoyed twig and PFAL and the classes available, he was a wonderful old guy. And yes, the Word we heart taught saved so many and lives were healed - too bad this teaching came from BG's heart and not VP's.

I think its those of us who went in the corps who got to see his Jeckyl/Hyde personality.

I always had the dichotomy in my mind - how could the Word and God be so great and in private our "teacher" was such a prick? Cruel to his wife, those around him, drunk many times (drambuie in the coffee or morning 7-up), nasty temper, with his own harem of women, publically humiliating his wife by living in the motorcoach when he was home - not with her. Once he had various women they were tossed away or passed around to others, porno movies for the corps' "learning" - how could this be? Really, how could this be?

It was GS that allowed me to realize, simple. He taught another man's class and work as if it was his own. He hijacked it. And since, because he was "the teacher" and the "man of God for our day and time" much of this was overlooked and the people on the field had no clue.

I believe he was in it for the money. One of the reasons his first people left him, as one said, he had started getting money from the classes and went out and bought a nice new Harley. When this man found out he had done this with supposedly "non-profit" money, he told him he could no longer work with him.

How much material possessions did he amass? Motorcoach, plane, thousands in wardrobe, new cars every year - 5 Harleys (he had a couple he kept at Emporia most people didn't know about), an auditorium, a compound, buildings, land, neighboring farms, houses for his family, and so much more - whatever he wanted, he got. He built an earthly, material kingdom.

How did he do this? I worked in finance in payroll. Simple. In public, he'd show people his paycheck, but in private, we'd get the notes, I'm going shopping tomorrow, please have $500 waiting for me, or other requests. He and his top leaders were given lots of money "off the books."

The man amassed an earthly, material kingdom. Did the heavenly kingdom coming ever cross his mind?

If it did, it was at the end, when he started whining - I wish I was the man I know to be.

People always thought it was so wonderful he said that. I always thought it came from a man who knew he had blown it in this life and couldn't go back and redo it. I think he was very afraid to meet his maker. He was not looking forward to it.

In fact, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict all mankind, I cannot tell you how many testimonies I have read where the person knew, it was then or there make a decision, deathbed accounts where people literally told the people around them, as they were being urged to accept Christ, that they just couldn't do it, it was too late, and would relate specifically when in their life they had had their chance.

I don't think VP really accepted Christ, from his actions. I think he did have an "intellectual" interest in the Bible though. He had to, he had to keep up his public persona as "the man of God."

Then, in true sociopathic form, near the end, he runs off to CG and complains and bitches about everyone and everything in the ministry. Nothing was his fault - oh no... Gee, everyone had let him down, poor me. He was angry. What does he do in his last hours? Watch sports on tv. I think, if I was really concerned about my salvation at the end, I wouldn't be watching tv.

I believe he was a false prophet - and why would we marvel at this? "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." "They entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity."

I guess that just about sums up VP for me.

By the way, I also knew Rev. Jimmy Dopp. And over dinner he told me the same things he told you, Sunesis.

VPW was a creep, looking for a way to teach that God thought having porn type sex with anyone was okay, he wanted a sex empire, he wanted an empire, power and money. May he rot in hell.

And I do not think he was ever born again either. I think he memorized a "tongue"

I only wish I had found out about BG Leonard back in 1972 instead of VPW

Imagine if the net were around in the 70's?

Edited September 15, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[mamouda]

On 9/9/2007 at 1:11 PM, Dot Matrix said:

Look at the above here he connects he teacing is GOD's (teaching)

So if God gave him the enablements, and I have a question, I am challanging GOD AND I am stupid

Oh, and so many people here still think he did not LEAD us into "cult like" lemming thinking --

Pretty obviously he did, and this is just ONE of his little ole teachings....

Just like the twisting, making people afraid to leave TWI, because then we are living outside the will of GOD

If I question VP, I am stupid afterall he gets his stuff from God, so if I do not think it is right -- I am going against God and his special enabled teacher...

  Quote

Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid.

*************

That's called double constraint in psychology description of a perverse narcissistic manipulator. They say one thing, turn it around to say another that is opposite like he says to be gentle, patient and calm while saying you are stupid if you ask a question. If you ask a question, you question MY perfect ability to teach and you question my ego, therefore it's best to put you down IN ADVANCE to protect my image and if you dare ask it means you are stupid. So the crowd understands the message : "If I ask a question, it means I'm stupid"! In the end, the person is frustrated and instead of being lifted, feels like he's/she's not worth it.

They are masters at manipulating words and seduction!

 

[Rocky]

29 minutes ago, mamouda said:

  Quote

Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid.

*************

That's called double constraint in psychology description of a perverse narcissistic manipulator. They say one thing, turn it around to say another that is opposite like he says to be gentle, patient and calm while saying you are stupid if you ask a question. If you ask a question, you question MY perfect ability to teach and you question my ego, therefore it's best to put you down IN ADVANCE to protect my image and if you dare ask it means you are stupid. So the crowd understands the message : "If I ask a question, it means I'm stupid"! In the end, the person is frustrated and instead of being lifted, feels like he's/she's not worth it.

They are masters at manipulating words and seduction!

 

You nailed it! 

Yes, that's what Wierwille often did.

[mamouda]

Just now, Rocky said:

You nailed it! 

Yes, that's what Wierwille often did.

I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing this research.

[mamouda]

Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to the people who have answers then tells me if it's correct :) 

One thing though is I never bought into some teachings... I thought they were weird. 

[Rocky]

11 minutes ago, mamouda said:

Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to the people who have answers then tells me if it's correct :) 

One thing though is I never bought into some teachings... I thought they were weird. 

I understand. And looking back, I now believe many of their teachings are weird.