If we let whether or not you're willing to listen limit our posting, it would get pretty quiet on threads you post on around here.
And the problem with that is what? :)
WW -- re-read what I said. I specifically stated I couldn't stop you from defending John if that's what you want to do. But if you're going to respond to the questions I asked John don't expect me to address your response. My questions weren't directed towards you.
You said if anyone besides Juedes responded, there's little point because you won't read it.
"let him speak for himself. Even though I know I can't stop you from doing so I'll tell you now -- it will be wasted on me 'cause I won't bother responding to it."
My response of
"If we let whether or not you're willing to listen limit our posting, it would get pretty quiet on threads you post on around here."
reflected an understanding of what you wrote,
thus, no re-reading is necessary.
Neither was rephrasing necessary, I understood you the first time.
You said if anyone besides Juedes responded, there's little point because you won't read it.
"let him speak for himself. Even though I know I can't stop you from doing so I'll tell you now -- it will be wasted on me 'cause I won't bother responding to it."
My response of
"If we let whether or not you're willing to listen limit our posting, it would get pretty quiet on threads you post on around here."
reflected an understanding of what you wrote,
thus, no re-reading is necessary.
Neither was rephrasing necessary, I understood you the first time.
I'm sure you think so but, obviously you couldn't have because you've changed what I actually said into what you THOUGHT I said.
So far, we're at 1 promise not to respond if we post about Juedes,
and 2 posts responding to not responding if we post about Juedes.
Sheesh! And you have the audacity to call your self WordWolf! One thing is certain -- you have the ability to obscure what someone actually says with your wordiness.
Dude -- a simple acknowledgment that you did indeed mis-read what I said would suffice. I know it might be difficult to admit but trust me on this -- you'll get over it. :)
* It would be nice if those of you who feel compelled to defend John to just this once -- let him speak for himself. Even though I know I can't stop you from doing so I'll tell you now -- it will be wasted on me 'cause I won't bother responding to it.
Well, it IS rather humorous that you can't keep your word.
I am laughing my arse off over here. You're just mad that WordWolf called you on it and continuing to make it even more hilarious the more you post.
Well, it IS rather humorous that you can't keep your word.
I am laughing my arse off over here. You're just mad that WordWolf called you on it and continuing to make it even more hilarious the more you continue.
That's nice. I've always felt that if you can't educate someone you might as well entertain them. Obviously you fall into the second group.
Are you a student of WordWolf? You have my sympathy.
You know, if you all cuold give each other a little breathing room. If you could all stop being quite so literal and hard on each other, you might find you have more in common than you realize.
The term "ministry" was, in The Way, used of five church offices only. We all know what they are. The rest of the Christian world, properly, does not limit it to that. Neither do the scriptures.
I think an authentic "ministry" can come to a person's heart in a flash, or it can grow in ones heart. It is evident that DrW's snow pumps story describes something that occured in DrW's heart as a calling and an ordination. I believe he lived the rest of his life in answer to that perceived call, not that he did it perfectly (hence, the tombstone -- that saying is an irony and I respect him for having the courage to insist his feeling of regret went on there, and a testament to his humility, knowing his own pride, perhaps).
A calling or empowerment of God can take many forms. You have "a ministry," you know. Everyone does who is a child of God. JohnJ has expressed his belief of what God has called him to do (he may have other callings, as well) on his website. Proof of ministry is in the fruit, as Paul wrote the Corinthians that he might not be an apostle to others, but he was to them. They were, in fact, the proof of his apostleship. It follows, in my mind, that JohnJ perceives that his work has helped people who were (in his view) harmed by TWI. Maybe some people have actually said to him (something like), "Your work has helped me a great deal. I was badly hurt by some of the things that happened to me in the Way Ministry, and your writings helped me recover myself from the snare of the devil."
I happen to think TBone and Socks have ministries. They might not be to others, but they are to me. Others around here, I think, have ministries to those who have been sexually abused, and the people they have loved and helped are the proof of their ministry. I'm quite sure Wrds has a ministry, but again, that's just me.
A few years ago I didn't expect to hear what I heard from some posters. Words of wisdom and the heart of the spirit coming out of their mouths. Still happens today.
Though they never knew it, their words were moving right along with what I was being shown.
We all lead and follow, we are not to be exercising lordship over another.
Nor stifling freedom to express one's heart.
Picking apart posts is a waste of energy, when what they actually are trying to communicate may not be in the right words for another to understand.
A calling or empowerment of God can take many forms. You have "a ministry," you know. Everyone does who is a child of God. JohnJ has expressed his belief of what God has called him to do (he may have other callings, as well) on his website. Proof of ministry is in the fruit, as Paul wrote the Corinthians that he might not be an apostle to others, but he was to them. They were, in fact, the proof of his apostleship. It follows, in my mind, that JohnJ perceives that his work has helped people who were (in his view) harmed by TWI. Maybe some people have actually said to him (something like), "Your work has helped me a great deal. I was badly hurt by some of the things that happened to me in the Way Ministry, and your writings helped me recover myself from the snare of the devil."
Well, I for one was helped by JohnJ's website. His was one of the first I found on TWI when I began to search for understanding regarding what was going on in my life at that time. His was where I first began to get a glimmering of an understanding that I wasn't the only one experiencing what I was experiencing.
I am not a JohnJ defender or follower. I haven't been to his website in many years now, for reasons that may be obvious to those who know me a bit - lol. But, I will always be thankful for what his work did to help me personally and I have no doubt he has helped others as well.
This is exactly the way I feel about VPW but some say he wasn't qualified to help me.
HE DID IT, HE GOT THE JOB DONE. Qualified or no.
I hear you Oldies. I can't say VPW helped me directly, but my early days with TWI did. I can look back and say I paid a high price for that help. I can also look back and see I may have paid a higher price without that help. In the end I will never know because it was a road not taken.
So, I get your perspective on this and I am glad to see you are not above recognizing that VPW may have had some error and done some wrong, while at the same time you cannot forget how he helped you.
The term "ministry" was, in The Way, used of five church offices only. We all know what they are. The rest of the Christian world, properly, does not limit it to that. Neither do the scriptures.
Dan......while twi highlighted the five gift ministries [Eph. 4:11] in teachings and publications and the newly-revamped corps logo in 1978/79 (?)......I was around wierwille on several occasions where he elaborated on ministries that were beyond that scope. And, within a few of these teachings / sharings.....wierwille spoke openly that a few 3rd corps clergy and 4th corps clergy fit into the categories of helps & organization.
The Scripture reference of these other ministries:
I Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that, miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues....
After wierwille's death, I cannot recall martindale ever addressing this issue.
Discussing twi and its evolvement is very much like trying to focus on a moving target.
It talks about the "Able Minister's" in the Epistles...so, how are they sorted by gifts? if God says we are all able minister's. Why just the few type's listed above?
I think there are alot of folks who would have awesome minister's..but Craig casted a huge stumbling block...that is a awful way to hurt the Body of Christ.
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WordWolf
If we let whether or not you're willing to listen limit our posting, it would get pretty quiet on threads you post on around here.
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Larry N Moore
And the problem with that is what? :)
WW -- re-read what I said. I specifically stated I couldn't stop you from defending John if that's what you want to do. But if you're going to respond to the questions I asked John don't expect me to address your response. My questions weren't directed towards you.
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WordWolf
I read you fine.
You said if anyone besides Juedes responded, there's little point because you won't read it.
"let him speak for himself. Even though I know I can't stop you from doing so I'll tell you now -- it will be wasted on me 'cause I won't bother responding to it."
My response of
"If we let whether or not you're willing to listen limit our posting, it would get pretty quiet on threads you post on around here."
reflected an understanding of what you wrote,
thus, no re-reading is necessary.
Neither was rephrasing necessary, I understood you the first time.
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Larry N Moore
I'm sure you think so but, obviously you couldn't have because you've changed what I actually said into what you THOUGHT I said.
Shall we continue this little game?
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WordWolf
If you want.
So far, we're at 1 promise not to respond if we post about Juedes,
and 2 posts responding to not responding if we post about Juedes.
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Larry N Moore
Sheesh! And you have the audacity to call your self WordWolf! One thing is certain -- you have the ability to obscure what someone actually says with your wordiness.
Dude -- a simple acknowledgment that you did indeed mis-read what I said would suffice. I know it might be difficult to admit but trust me on this -- you'll get over it. :)
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Belle
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Larry N Moore
Oh, but I see now why you might find it difficult to admit your mistake. It would disappoint your cheering section in the pews. ;)
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Belle
Well, it IS rather humorous that you can't keep your word.
I am laughing my arse off over here. You're just mad that WordWolf called you on it and continuing to make it even more hilarious the more you post.
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Larry N Moore
That's nice. I've always felt that if you can't educate someone you might as well entertain them. Obviously you fall into the second group.
Are you a student of WordWolf? You have my sympathy.
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Abigail
Man oh man, what a tough crowd this is.
You know, if you all cuold give each other a little breathing room. If you could all stop being quite so literal and hard on each other, you might find you have more in common than you realize.
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anotherDan
Larry, skip over this post!
The term "ministry" was, in The Way, used of five church offices only. We all know what they are. The rest of the Christian world, properly, does not limit it to that. Neither do the scriptures.
I think an authentic "ministry" can come to a person's heart in a flash, or it can grow in ones heart. It is evident that DrW's snow pumps story describes something that occured in DrW's heart as a calling and an ordination. I believe he lived the rest of his life in answer to that perceived call, not that he did it perfectly (hence, the tombstone -- that saying is an irony and I respect him for having the courage to insist his feeling of regret went on there, and a testament to his humility, knowing his own pride, perhaps).
A calling or empowerment of God can take many forms. You have "a ministry," you know. Everyone does who is a child of God. JohnJ has expressed his belief of what God has called him to do (he may have other callings, as well) on his website. Proof of ministry is in the fruit, as Paul wrote the Corinthians that he might not be an apostle to others, but he was to them. They were, in fact, the proof of his apostleship. It follows, in my mind, that JohnJ perceives that his work has helped people who were (in his view) harmed by TWI. Maybe some people have actually said to him (something like), "Your work has helped me a great deal. I was badly hurt by some of the things that happened to me in the Way Ministry, and your writings helped me recover myself from the snare of the devil."
I happen to think TBone and Socks have ministries. They might not be to others, but they are to me. Others around here, I think, have ministries to those who have been sexually abused, and the people they have loved and helped are the proof of their ministry. I'm quite sure Wrds has a ministry, but again, that's just me.
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cman
A few years ago I didn't expect to hear what I heard from some posters. Words of wisdom and the heart of the spirit coming out of their mouths. Still happens today.
Though they never knew it, their words were moving right along with what I was being shown.
We all lead and follow, we are not to be exercising lordship over another.
Nor stifling freedom to express one's heart.
Picking apart posts is a waste of energy, when what they actually are trying to communicate may not be in the right words for another to understand.
And some do understand what is being said.
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Abigail
Well, I for one was helped by JohnJ's website. His was one of the first I found on TWI when I began to search for understanding regarding what was going on in my life at that time. His was where I first began to get a glimmering of an understanding that I wasn't the only one experiencing what I was experiencing.
I am not a JohnJ defender or follower. I haven't been to his website in many years now, for reasons that may be obvious to those who know me a bit - lol. But, I will always be thankful for what his work did to help me personally and I have no doubt he has helped others as well.
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cman
It seems on forums, conversations don't happen a whole lot.
Would like to see more though.
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Larry N Moore
:) I wouldn't think of doing such a thing. I just won't respond to it.
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anotherDan
Fair enough, Larry, and thanks, I think! But I think you just did.
:P
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Larry N Moore
No, Dan -- I only responded to your admonition for me to skip your post. I kept my mouth shut on what followed after that admonition. :)
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oldiesman
This is exactly the way I feel about VPW but some say he wasn't qualified to help me.
HE DID IT, HE GOT THE JOB DONE. Qualified or no.
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Abigail
I hear you Oldies. I can't say VPW helped me directly, but my early days with TWI did. I can look back and say I paid a high price for that help. I can also look back and see I may have paid a higher price without that help. In the end I will never know because it was a road not taken.
So, I get your perspective on this and I am glad to see you are not above recognizing that VPW may have had some error and done some wrong, while at the same time you cannot forget how he helped you.
I have no beef with you Oldies. :)
Peace
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anotherDan
Abi, and Oldies. Great exchange!
Larry, again, "fair enough" I concede the point!
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skyrider
Dan......while twi highlighted the five gift ministries [Eph. 4:11] in teachings and publications and the newly-revamped corps logo in 1978/79 (?)......I was around wierwille on several occasions where he elaborated on ministries that were beyond that scope. And, within a few of these teachings / sharings.....wierwille spoke openly that a few 3rd corps clergy and 4th corps clergy fit into the categories of helps & organization.
The Scripture reference of these other ministries:
I Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that, miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues....
After wierwille's death, I cannot recall martindale ever addressing this issue.
Discussing twi and its evolvement is very much like trying to focus on a moving target.
:)
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Abigail
ROFLOL - very well said!!!
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likeaneagle
It talks about the "Able Minister's" in the Epistles...so, how are they sorted by gifts? if God says we are all able minister's. Why just the few type's listed above?
I think there are alot of folks who would have awesome minister's..but Craig casted a huge stumbling block...that is a awful way to hurt the Body of Christ.
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