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False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?


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  • 2 weeks later...

"False prophet or good minister..." is a very important question. Some people think that no one should criticize VPW or draw attention to his plagiarism, adultery, lying about his status, etc. (For example, my post above on how VPW alluded in the 1955 ed of RTHST to "a man" (Stiles) who taught him about the Spirit, then left this out of his 1957 ed and claiming that he had studied the word and researched it himself without any one's guidance or teaching.) They say (as someone said above) that God wouldn't be honored by this, or that you shouldn't criticize the dead, etc.

The Lord clearly considers evaluation of a Cbristian leader's life to be very important. For example, Titus and Timothy list the qualifications for becoming an overseer or deacon. A few are skills, like "apt to teach." But most are character- having one woman/wife (same Greek word), respectable, gentle, not a lover of money, etc. If a man does not fit these qualifications, he should not be listened to or followed as a Christian leader. Furthermore, if someone is a leader, Paul say that the chruch can entertain accusations against him (by two or more witnesses, to assure evidence). The implied purpose is to remove the person from leadership if the accusations are true. If you don't, the person will infect the chruch with false teaching. Paul doesn't condemn the people who make accusations, just outlines how to do it properly.

People in TWI, including most people who frequent GSC, have considered VPW a leader, teacher, and more than that-- the greatest of them. VP claimed the same when he said that God audibly told him that God would teach VP alone the word as it had not been known since the first century. Indirectly he was claiming to be like an apostle, and many considered him to be so. They even made bronze statues of "The Teacher" that people bought and displayed in their homes. (My guess is that people who bought the statues didn't have any statues of Jesus or Peter or Paul, just VP)

So it is valid to evaluate VPW as the Bible does- according to the character qualifications in Timothy and Titus. VPW falls miserably short. His adultery, lying about his status and events (like snow in Tulsa), plagiarism, self-aggrandisment, false teachings (like the law of believing) and desire for control all add up to the conclusion that he does not qualify as a Christian leader of any sort. Because of this, people should not listen to him, "learn" from him, follow his example, etc. He may or may not be a Christian, but should not be considered a teacher or leader. And God is indeed honored when leaders are deposed because they've violated the qualifications of leaders in the NT, because it keeps the church purer than it would be otherwise. Character affects teaching. It's clear from many people's testimony that VPW was guilty of multiple adultery, and because of that he privately taught his next-tier leaders that adultery was OK (see Schoenheit's paper on this). His sexual sin defended and promulgated more sexual sin in others' lives. I know clergy who have been removed for doing a small fraction of what VPW did, which was right to do, though painful. It is right to evaluate VPW's actions and words and see that he is unfit as a teacher or leader in the same way.

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Some people think that no one should criticize VPW or draw attention to his plagiarism, adultery, lying about his status, etc. <snip>

Well, John, here is where you've gotten it wrong. I accept your freedom to criticize VP's plagerism, etc., etc., etc. I don't "buy" it all. I do, however, think that you fail to give him any credit for anything and therefore can't help thinking that you're not entirely objective or honest. Just my opinion, mind you. I imagine you think VP was from the Devil (you do believe in such a being, don't ya?) and therefore if he did anything worth praise, in a sense you might feel you're praising the Devil. It's very sad. If you're a man of God I'd like to know if God spoke to you and commissioned you to do what you do. I'd really like to know if you think if you spent more time talking to those who haven't received Jesus into their life would God be more pleased with that, then with this?

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Some people think that no one should criticize VPW or draw attention to his plagiarism, adultery, lying about his status, etc.

Larry

This is a simple statement of fact.

Rather than assign a personal aspect to it and then try to assert that the man is not fulfilling his ministry, why not deal with that statement first and calmly explain why you disagree with it?

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Well, John, here is where you've gotten it wrong. I accept your freedom to criticize VP's plagerism, etc., etc., etc. I don't "buy" it all. I do, however, think that you fail to give him any credit for anything and therefore can't help thinking that you're not entirely objective or honest. Just my opinion, mind you...

In your objective and honest opinion, what specifically should vpw be given credit for?

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In your objective and honest opinion, what specifically should vpw be given credit for?

I’m going to saw myself off on another limb (haha), but since my voice over here is so small anyway...(psst. no one might hear,sshhh). I liked learning how to open that dust covered Bible and learn some of the things that were written and get to the point of Rom. 10:9,10.

I had some fun with people I met, even the party bosses with the cute name tags. Honestly, I didn’t take it that seriously but I can see how some did.

I know that sounds really stupid and remedial, but for me it was something I look back at as apart of what education was all about during school time. PFAL was kind of like “ShowTime”. Amazing how long the show lasted! Reminds me of this place.

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johnj,

We've not met or conversed before. I've read your work a number of times through the years. I agree substantially with your post. I tend to be an anti-anti, and though I think maybe Larry could have said it better, I also tend to appreciate those with more affirmative ministries. Apparently, God can teach old dogs new tricks, because I now understand that I've become an "anti" if I take an anti-anti stand! Rather hypocritical.

I spent about 25 years "in the ministry." I lived it day after day. In some ways, I'm still living it because I believe it. I haven't left "the Way," because Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way," something VPW taught me. Certainly, I could have learned it in any number of churches, but I learned it there, and many other things that I still believe. I also learned error, which I've had to correct, and I practised error, for which I've had to repent. One example is in relation to "the Word." I learned my love for God's Word in the ministry, and yet I didn't REALLY "love the Word" enough to honestly let "interpret itself." And I am ashamed of how long I remained in that juvenile state.

Regarding the headline question of this thread, I cannot say "the jury is still out," because there is no jury, only one Judge. There is a tension in me between the "judge" and the "judge not" verses in the Bible, just as there is a tension between justice and mercy. Mercy triumphs, I think. That is the message of the cross. It's dangerous sometimes to answer a question when it is framed either-or.

I would like to say that I have no problem with the snow on the gas pumps story. I don't care what the weatherman reported. Could it be a false claim? Absolutely. What about the "revelation" that went along with it, that God would teach him the Word like it had not been known since the first century? Was this a figment of his vain imagination? Maybe.

Men are anomalies, from King David to John Smith to Isaac Newton and Victor Wierwille, to Mother Teresa. I happened to live in Victor's time, and I happened to be attracted to some of the things he was preaching and teaching. Some of it resonated very powerfully within me, and caused me to commit myself, and though I saw foolishness and pride at times, and though I was hurt by it, I remained until the leadership of the ministry became untolerably astray in ways that were known to me. Reading what I have read here, I think I should have left much sooner.

I was recently at a funeral for a man who apparently wasn't a very good father, and the minister had the curious boldness to suggest that his family forgive him. I say "curious" because we don't normally get into that kind of thing at a funeral. We're there to honor the life of the now departed (or whatever!) But sometimes these things must be said. It must be acknowledged that the guy hurt me, or us. VPW was like that man to me. When he sinned, it was a betrayal of his ministry to me, and what he held himself up to be, a Christian minister. He was too full of himself, and though I heard him acknowledge his debt to others many times, your point is well taken about the dropping out of written acknowledgments. To some he was a monster, to others a Teacher. To me, he was a charismatic and enthusiastic student and teacher (small "t") with feet of clay, sometimes pitiable.

I don't get it, how the brilliant Isaac Newton could be into alchemy and biblical research. How priests can molest little boys. I just don't get it, but there it is.

It is a good thing to separate the evil from the good. For your work, John, in that regard, I thank you. You're a valuable member of the Body of Christ.

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Well, John, here is where you've gotten it wrong. I accept your freedom to criticize VP's plagerism, etc., etc., etc. I don't "buy" it all. I do, however, think that you fail to give him any credit for anything and therefore can't help thinking that you're not entirely objective or honest. Just my opinion, mind you. I imagine you think VP was from the Devil (you do believe in such a being, don't ya?) and therefore if he did anything worth praise, in a sense you might feel you're praising the Devil. It's very sad. If you're a man of God I'd like to know if God spoke to you and commissioned you to do what you do.

I'd really like to know if you think if you spent more time talking to those who haven't received Jesus into their life would God be more pleased with that, then with this?

Hmmm…I think an interesting study would be how Jesus was received in His day – and more importantly – what was the message He presented that called for a response. Was His ministry all sweet and positive? The same man who taught about faith in God, prayer, love, humility, forgiveness, the priority of the kingdom of God and His righteousness also spoke of the hypocrisy, lies, deception and predatory nature of certain religious leaders, the dangers of self-deception, and the punishment of hell for the willful disobedience of evil workers.

Such a study may offer a more comprehensive idea of what Jesus' ministry was all about. Those same topics are talked about by those who received Jesus in the New Testament – i.e. they are mentioned in the epistles…Maybe God is pleased with folks who tell the whole story.

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I just found this prior to coming onto GSC, thought you may want to look at it.

THE SEVEN CHARACTERISTICS

OF A FAITHFUL MINISTER

<H1 class=western goog_ds_charIndex="62">Victor Paul Wierwille</H1>

The Scriptures used throughout this pamphlet are quoted from the King James Version unless otherwise noted. Any explanatory insertions or comments within a scripture verse are enclosed in brackets [ ]. Greek words are printed with English letters and italicized.

God Bless and of course greetings to all of you in the wonderful name of our living lord and of our savior, Jesus Christ

on this January the 15th, 1984. I don’t remember the last time I

taught here but it’s been along time ago, I think it was in

November of ‘82, but in April I know of ‘83, I was here during

the Advanced Class. So I am real thankful to the Father to be

back here on the campus here in Emporia with all the staff, the

college, the Corps and you from around the state that are in here

tonight. I appreciate the commitment and dedication of the

leadership on this campus under the tutelage specifically and the

guidance of Rev. John Lynn and all the wonderful greatness of

God’s Word that lives here. On the 3rd of March which is a

Saturday, the first Saturday of March, Mrs. Wierwille and I plan

on being in the state of Kansas to do a vision building day with

the believers of the state of Kansas and according to Rev. Johnny

Townsend, he is planning on doing this in the area of Witchita.

So we are looking forward to being back in the state with our

wonderful people at that time.

Tonight I had prepared for you an eight and a half by eleven

sheet of paper that has the whole teaching on it. This teaching

that I am going to share with you tonight I think is one of the

most important teachings that I could do at this time in the

history of our ministry and of my life.

I’d like for you to turn to Second Timothy. Tonight the subject is “The Seven Characteristics of a Faithful Minister.” I

wanted to share this with the leadership Friday at International

but we had so much other business to take care of that we never

got to it, so you are the people that will have to live through it

tonight. But everybody there I think was an ordained minister

and I had been working this and I wanted to share it but as I

said, just time was not available. This is also the truth regarding

a Twig co-ordinator and there is an exhortation of each

characteristic given in this second chapter of Second Timothy.

The number seven, people, is the number of perfection and this

is the only place in the Bible where all the seven characteristics

of a faithful minister are put together in one chapter. So all you

need to do is understand this chapter and you’ll be always able

to judge from the Word of God, let the Word of God do the

judging of whether the ministry of a Twig co-ordinator or any

other individual is according to the Word of God. And it is these

seven characteristics that I listed on your paper ‘cause I thought

you might be able to write in other things but these seven are:

Number 1: Son be strong in grace.

Number 2: Son be strong in service.

Number 3: Son be a strong athlete.

Number 4: Son be a strong husbandman, a cultivator.

Number 5: Son be a strong workman.

Number 6: Be a strong vessel.

Number 7: Be a strong servant, a doulos.

Those are the seven characteristics given in Second Timothy chapter two with an exhortation on each one of the

characteristics and tonight I want to go through this second

chapter with you verse by verse.

II Timothy 2:1:

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in [whom?] Christ Jesus.

Timothy was not Paul’s physical son but he was his spiritual son. He was the one, Paul was the one who had taught him the greatness of God’s Word and led him to the Lord Jesus Christ and the great truths of God’s Word. The first chapter of First Timothy gives a real great insight on this word son.

I Timothy 1:2:

Unto Timothy, my [what?] own son...

And the literal of those words, “own son”, are “true child”. A

true child. Unto Timothy my true child in the faith. And that is

basically the meaning of chapter two, verse one. Thou therefore

my true son be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. True

son, to be strong in the grace. Grace is God’s divine favour

perpendicular from God to man, unmerited. And that grace is in

what Christ Jesus accomplished for us. And the first requirement

of a faithful minister is that he is to be strong in grace, divine

favour perpendicular. He is not to be strong in his own mental

acumens or the seminaries he graduated from - that’s all

secondary. The primary is that he remembers to be strong in

what? Grace, divine favour.

That’s why a true minister of God is never critical in a

negative sense. He’s not raising hell with people. The only

people who ever raise hell with people are people who forget

the grace of God, and the love of God, and forgiveness of God. A true son is one who remembers that it’s by grace that he is a minister of the Word, and that he is to be strong in that grace. And if he remembers that and verse two:

II Timothy 2:2:

...the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, ...

In other words, a true son stands faithful with the one who taught it to him. Paul taught Timothy, and Paul said, “The things that thou hast heard of me, Paul, among many witnesses...” - other people heard the same thing. And a true minister, a faithful minister, a son strong in the grace, is concerned about committing to faithful men that same truth.

...who shall be able to teach others also.

So that is the exhortation about a son who is strong in grace.

Number two is in verse three: Be strong in service. The

King James reads, “ Thou therefore endure hardness as a good

soldier of Jesus Christ.” It should be translated and read, “Thou

therefore endure training, mental pressure, as a good server of

Jesus Christ,” because we are athletes of the spirit. We are not

warring soldiers that go out to kill and to destroy, but we’re

athletes running in the spiritual race of life. Thou therefore

endure training as a good server of Jesus Christ. The second

great truth regarding the characteristics of a faithful minister... he

is strong in what? Service. Strong in service. He endures

training. Verse four. “No man that warreth...,” and the word

warreth is a deliberate forgery in the King James. The word is

service, serveth, or serves. “No man who serves entangles

himself with the affairs of this life that he may please Him who

hath chosen him to be a worker, a server.”

Number three is: To be a strong athlete. And that is in verse five:

And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

The word strive in this verse is the greek word, athleo, from which we get our word athlete. Literally this verse accurately reads, “And contending in the games...” the athlete will strive to

be the best - masteries “...but he’s not crowned except he...” do what? “Strive lawfully...” stay within the bounds of that athletic competition as he contends in the games. And he was talking

about the Roman games. So he’s a strong athlete who develops himself to be absolutely the best it is possible for him to be. But he is not rewarded or he doesn’t receive, he’s not laced with the

floral tributes, except he contend in the games according to the rules.

The fourth characteristic is in verse six: “The

husbandman...” the King James says, “...that labours must be first

partaker of the fruits.” I figured most people didn’t understand

the old English usage of the word husbandman. The

husbandman is a cultivator, the one who cultivates the land,

Biblically speaking. Today we would call him a farmer.

This son is to be a strong cultivator. He is to cultivate

people properly. He is to work with them properly like you

would prepare the ground properly to receive the seed, a farmer

would. And that’s why he says he must be first partaker of the

fruits. You must be a partaker in cultivating and seeing this fruit

develop if you’re going to be a faithful minister, a wonderful

Twig co-ordinater. You have to work with people and you have

to cultivate them. You have to prepare them to receive the

Word of God. You just don’t come in and bulldoze your way

through a Twig meeting. You love those people, and so you

cultivate them, you understand? Some people need help here,

someone else there. That’s how you get to be partaker of the

fruit that you will see in their life as they grow.

And there are quite a few verses after verse six that set this

great truth in here. And I think the reason He used this many

verses from six on through fourteen is because it’s such an

important phase of a faithful minister’s responsibility. And that’s

why he expanded it, so we would have a greater understanding

and not screw up. The exhortation begins in verse seven:

Consider what I say...

These words, “consider what I say”, are the translation of the word “selah”. Selah, in the Old Testament, whenever you read that word in the Old Testament, class, it always means “consider

what I say”. Flip to Psalm 3, please. To the best of my knowledge this is the only place I could remember where it was used for the first time, I’m not sure, but I think it is. People read the words

like selah and they don’t know what they mean. At the end of verse two in Psalm three, do you have it?

Psalm 3:2:

Many there be which say of my soul, "There is no help for him in God." [Then is the word:] Selah.

And then after verse four:

...He heard me out of His holy hill. Selah.

And then in verse eight:

...Thy blessing is upon Thy People. [And then the word:] Selah.

It means consider what I’ve said, and it relates itself to the context of that which immediately follows. So back to verse seven of Second Timothy, please.

II Timothy 2:7:

Consider what I say; [what I have just said and what I’m gonna say now.] and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

The Lord give thee understanding. The reason he says that

is because human nature is always to go back to what men say,

or read what the world calls the most up-to-date periodicals,

things that people talk about. The word of God says that a

faithful minister is to go back primarily to the Lord, for it’s the

Lord that’s gonna give him understanding. See, it’s always a

temptation to go to the world, and then to quote what the world

says. It’s wonderful to quote what the world says if it agrees

with the Word, I guess, but the Word teaches that a faithful

minister has to rely upon the Lord, not man, to give him

understanding in, what? All things. And we are to remember,

verse eight:

...that Jesus Christ of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

…Paul says. And the reason it was his Gospel is because God revealed it to him and Paul declared it.

Verse 9:

Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not [what?] bound.

The word “evil doer” here is the same word that’s used

regarding two of the men that were crucified with Jesus. It’s the

word malefactor - kakourgoi. You suffer trouble from other

people because they will treat you as a malefactor. Paul said he

had suffered it even to where they’d put him in jail. But when

he was in prison the Word was still not, what? Bound.

Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, were all written from

Rome when he was in prison. See, I don’t think Peter was ever

in Rome. Told the Corps that last Wednesday night. So, if that

group over there wanted to have a Pope, they should have had

Paul. Paul was there, but Peter never was. So, the first Pope in

Rome could not have been Peter, he never was there. Well, you

figure it out, I don’t care.

But Paul was in prison in Rome, and from the prison in Rome he wrote some of the great mystery revelation, 'cause the word of God is not bound by chains. You see, no matter what people say about you, you know your own heart, you know your own mind. And they can speak of you as a malefactor, an evil doer, but you know the purity of your own soul and of your own mind, and you know that you are a faithful minister.

Verse 10:

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, [for the born again believers] that they [then the word "also" should be there - that they also, the elect, also] may obtain the salvation [the wholeness] which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

You're a strong cultivator of the people.

Verse 11:

It is a faithful saying: [text literally reads, “faithful is the saying:”] For if we be [are] dead [we are dead with him, not be, but are dead] with Him, we shall also live with Him.

Verse 12:

If we suffer[ed], we shall also reign [should be “reign also”] with Him:

Then there should be a period. Verse twelve ought to start with the word “If we deny...” “Faithful is the saying, for if we are dead with him, we shall live with him. And if we suffered with him, we shall also reign with him.” You see when Jesus Christ died, we died with him. When God raised him, we were raised with him. When he was seated at the right hand of God, we were seated with him, everything with what God wrought in Christ Jesus. Now verse twelve:

...if we deny Him, He also will [will also] deny us:

If we deny the truth of the greatness of this, then God can’t

do anything else but deny us too, and say, look dude, you’re

wrong! You’re not a faithful minister. To teach anything else but

that every believer died with Christ, and arose with him, is to

deny what Christ Jesus really did for us, and we’re not faithful

ministers. Verse thirteen goes on to say:

If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: [Why? Because God] ...cannot deny Himself.

Verse 14:

Of these things put them in remembrance, [a good cultivator puts people in remembrance] charging them before the Lord [The word "Lord" is "God" in many texts, and I think that's what it should be here, charging them before God] that they [contend not] strive not [contend not] about words to no profit, but to the subverting [or the disrupting] of the hearers.

If you’re going to be a good cultivator, a faithful minister, a good Twig co-ordinator, you got to remember to charge them

before God that they contend not. You do not contend about

words that are unprofitable. You know, you can spend all night

arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

That would be words to no profit. And all it would do is subvert,

distract the hearers. And that’s why verse fifteen now comes as

the fifth great truth: Son be a strong workman.

Verse 15:

Study to shew thyself approved unto [whom?] God, a workman... [who] needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You study diligently, you apply yourself as a Twig co-ordinator, as a faithful minister, to do one thing: to stand approved unto God as a workman. A workman of the Word. A workman of the Word, not of theologians, or all that other stuff, but you work the Word, people. And that’s the only way you can stand approved before God, working the Word, rightly dividing the Word of truth. The scriptures, the Word of God, is the Word of truth, but only to the end and in the proportion that

we rightly divide it do we have the true Word. And most of Christendom today is built on tradition rather than the right dividing of the Word. They are sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee of truth, people. The Devil is as sincere as you are. I think many times more so than you are. Shouldn’t be, but.... Look, you will never have the true Word until we rightly divide it. And that’s that right cutting, I think it’s orthotomounta or something in the text. I teach it in the Foundational Class.

And then come the following verses regarding this strong workman:

Verse 16:

...shun profane and vain babblings...

And I put this on your paper, ‘cause I doubted if too many of you would be able to understand what really profane was. Shun profane is the dishonorable, and vain babblings is intellectual stupidity. And you’re constantly being tempted with that and bombarded with it in the world. So, a faithful minister, a Twig co-ordinator has to shun... the word shun, you know, means to avoid, ...you avoid profane or dishonorable, because we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God. The

profane would be that they would lower the study to show yourself approved unto God. They would demand of you, you study to show yourself approved to the tradition. It’s dishonorable to study to show yourself approved to tradition. The vain babblings, as I said, are the presentations that people hit you with. It sounds so intellectual, and they’re so intellectual, and they hold degrees from the most reputable so-called academic institutions, and so people sit back and say, well he’s

got to be right. But what he says is contrary to what the integrity of the Word says. That’s why it’s intellectual stupidity.

Seventeen says:

...their word [this intellectual stupidity, their word] will eat as doth a canker...

And the word canker is the word gangrene. Then it names these two fellas, "Hymenaeus and Philetus."

Verse 18:

Who concerning the truth have erred...

And how did they err? They said that the resurrection is past already. And they did this in a very intellectual way. And so they overthrew the believing of some.

Verse 19:

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, [His Word standeth sure because His word liveth and abideth forever. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, forever] having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that

nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Verse 20:

But [For] in a great house [in a big home, a big house, a big family] there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to...

Then King James says what? Dishonour. That’s another

terrible mistake. ...less honour. Not dishonour, less honour,

because a vessel that’s of less honour is still not a dishonourable

vessel. And what he is giving here is an illustration out of the

culture of his time. That they had vessels of gold and of silver

that were used for the anointing of the head of the guests. There

were vessels that were used for the washing of the hands and

the face. Then there were vessels that were used for the

washing of the feet. And then there were vessels that were used

when you have to go to the bathroom. Now those vessels that

were used for the washing of the feet were not gold or silver,

they were lesser vessels, and that’s what he’s talking about. And

yet very needful. Likewise the vessels that they used when they

went to the bathroom. Those were considered lesser vessels.

Then comes the sixth great truth: Be a strong vessel, a good strong vessel.

Verse 21:

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

You see, the lesser vessel was clean, but it was just not used for the anointing of the head, it might be used for the washing of the feet. And those vessels are meet for the Master’s use, prepared unto every good work. And in order to illustrate this, he gives the exhortation in verse twenty-two:

Flee ...youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, [which is the love of God in the renewed mind] peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

We are to be a strong vessel unto honour, and we have to

flee youthful lusts. What are youthful lusts? Well, I don’t think

it’s particularly sexual - maybe occasionally, but... You know

when you’re young you want so many things, you want to own

things. You know, you want this, you want that, you want two

cars, you want this, you want that. You want all new furniture in

the house, you want three T.V. sets. All of that stuff, and that’s

what He says we ought to flee. God said He’d supply our need.

Every faithful minister, every Twig co-ordinator will have his

needs supplied. God never promised He’d fulfill our greeds.

And it’s in greeds that you get burdened down. When you get

all these things that when you’re young you think you like to

have, you get so burdened down that you’re just like the rest of

the world, you get nothing done for God. All you work for is the

world. And the world for the most part gets people so tied up

they’re never free to serve God, all they can do is go out there

and serve the world and pay off what they’ve already

accumulated which they didn’t need.

You try to keep you’re life as simple as you can if you’re a

faithful minister. You see, Jesus Christ came that we might have

a life and have it more abundantly, but the abundance is not

particularly in material things, possessions. See, I don’t care who

owns this auditorium, as long as I have the privilege of teaching

the Word in it. I don’t own it. You don’t own it. The ministry

has it. And yet, every one of us in here tonight can get blessed,

see. If I owned it, I’d have a barrel of trouble. You know then, I

would have to pay tax on it, I’d have to see about all the heat,

everything else. Now all I do is bless people, they all work

together as a family and we all get blessed. Like, you know, I

don’t care about these material things, as long as I can use them. And that is why I can speak with great authority in this field because I’ve been there. I was born and raised in a very wealthy family. And then, of course, when the time came to inherit the Wierwille stuff, we gave it all away, gave it all to the Way Ministry. The whole farm, all the money, everything else. And it’s wonderful. If I still owned the Way International farm, I couldn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy it now. And yet I have the freedom of living there, I have the freedom of spending my life

there, what else could a man want? You know, I can walk all

over that three-hundred acres, every foot I want to walk on it,

nobody throws me off. So can you. So it’s not in ownership, it’s

just that we have the freedom to use that which is made

available to us. And that’s why in verse twenty-three comes up

another truth, like we had earlier only here it’s stated:

...foolish and unlearned questions [do what?] avoid...

...like poison ivy. Foolish and unlearned questions, and they’re unlearned questions because they do not represent the accuracy of God’s Word. They are simply put in there to irritate you. They want to irritate you. They say something which is contrary to God’s Word. You know, like they’ll say, “Well, you don’t believe Jesus Christ is God, well then explain John 1:1 to me.” That’s a foolish and unlearned question. You explain it. Don’t ask me to explain it. Let them explain it to their friends or enemies. You see, you just don’t get taken in with those things when you are a faithful minister. You don’t spin your wheels with foolish and unlearned questions. You avoid ‘em like I said like poison ivy ‘er something. Why? Because, you know that they will just gender strife. They are asking this of you not because they want to learn, but because they want to fight. And you and I haven’t got time to fight as faithful ministers and Twig co-ordinators. All we got time for is to love God’s people and then hold forth the Word in all of it’s greatness and all of it’s truth. Let them fight with somebody else.

And then comes this great twenty-fourth verse which winds up the, which is the seventh one, which puts it in the perspective of perfection, class.

Verse 24:

And the servant of the Lord...

Seven is: Son be a strong servant. And the servant of the Lord...

...must not strive;

The word “servant” is “doulos”. The marked out minister. You got God’s brand on you, you been branded by God. You have his stamp on you as a Twig co-ordinator, as a faithful minister, and as a doulos of the Lord. He must not strive. Strive is the word battle or fight.

...but be gentle unto all...

That’s the second great exhortation here. Be gentle, gentle.

You see, people through the years have violently disagreed with

what I stand for and what I believe to be the truth of God’s

Word. And yet I always endeavor to be gentle with them, as

much as lieth within me. And a faithful minister, a faithful Twig

co-ordinator, has to be apt to what? Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid. Else the devil

would never let you get in here, ‘er something. See. Apt to

teach, and then you have to be patient. Good Lord. That’s

another one of those youthful lusts - impatience. You want

everything right now. A faithful minister, a wonderful Twig co-

ordinator, is patient. And whenever you work with people,

which is all basically that we work with, it just takes patience to

work with people. And sometimes it takes a whole month ‘till

you see any fruit, but you’re cultivating, remember? And when a

farmer plants a field, he doesn’t see the wheat crop immediately,

he has patience. And I as a minister of God, for God, I have to

have patience with people. Wait. Just wait, they’ll come. Sooner or later. If it doesn’t come sooner or later, what have you lost? Nothin’, you just wait. That’s why we were able to do those thirteen major television productions, which should’ve been done ten years ago, but I just had to wait ‘till the right

people that were committed and had the talent that could put it together. You know, I don’t like to wait, either. But, I cannot be a faithful minister and not wait, because if I don’t, I become critical, just opposite of what the Word says. And then you criticize people and find fault, and that is not being a faithful minister. So, I do not criticize or find fault, I just... apt to teach, patient. And look verse twenty-five:

In meekness [in meekness] instructing those that [are screwing themselves up, who ] oppose themselves; [who hurt themselves.]

You'd like for them to walk the Word, but you know they're not. So, in meekness you instruct those that oppose themselves. And the reason you can do this in meekness is because you are strong in the grace that is in whom? Christ Jesus. When you forget God's grace, that's when people become critical. That's when they begin pointing fingers. All you have to remember is what God forgives you for and you have no problem forgiving others in your Twig, or people that are under the ministry that God has given you and made you responsible for. So in meekness, humility - tenderness, honey - you instruct those that oppose themself. And the rest of that verse reads accurately:

...that God at some time will give them change of heart to the acknowledging of the truth. [Literal]

Isn’t that beautiful? You’re a strong doulos, a son of God

who is a strong servant. Not striving, you’re gentle, you’re a

teacher, and you walk meekly and humbly with the love of God

in the renewed mind in manifestation in your life.

Verse 26:

...that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil...

These are those that are opposing themselves. So, in meekness. And meekness is what helps them to recover themselves. You can’t recover anybody, the individual has to do that. You can’t get saved for me. I have to do it. And these people, if you have them in your fellowship and you are a

faithful minister, you will in meekness instruct them that they by the freedom of their will can have a change of heart. And when they have a change of heart, they recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,

...who are taken captive by him at his will.

The Adversary took captive of them at the Adversary’s will

because they did not have the renewed mind, did not put on the

mind of Christ yet. Every day in this ministry we got new babies.

This next month perhaps we will have a couple thousand new

babies, just here in the United States. Well, you wouldn’t expect

a human baby to play football the first day. Well, what about a

spiritual baby? You just got to take time. And the greatest thing

I know that brings people into the greatness of all of this is the

love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in a faithful

minister. That he so loves because God loved him, that he just

surrounds the Twig, the believers, with the love of God. And I

see this in our leadership, and I’m real grateful, real thankful.

And I appreciate that God put here in one chapter all those

characteristics of a faithful minister, a faithful Twig co-ordinator.

A Twig co-ordinator is ministering to the Twig. And all you need

to know is this chapter, and you can make a decision according

to the Word of God regarding the faithfulness of any minister,

anyplace, anywheres in the world, or in anything you read.

So, number one is to be strong in what? Grace.

Number two, be strong in what? Service.

Number three a strong? Athlete.

Number four? Strong husbandman or cultivator.

Number five? A strong what? Workman.

Number six, a strong what? Vessel.

And number seven, a strong what? Servant.

Those are the seven characteristics. Thank you, Father for allowing me to teach the Word to your wonderful people here

tonight. Thank you for the greatness in which you have set all

these wonderful truths in such an abbreviated form in one

chapter in the sacred scriptures. And tonight, Father, I thank you

for our ministers all over the world, our Twig co-ordinators that

minister, everywhere. And may they walk on the greatness of

that Word and be the epitomization of the truth that we have

shared with your people tonight, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen? God bless, I love you, you’re the best.

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steak.jpg

Hmmm…I think an interesting study would be how Jesus was received in His day – and more importantly – what was the message He presented that called for a response. Was His ministry all sweet and positive? The same man who taught about faith in God, prayer, love, humility, forgiveness, the priority of the kingdom of God and His righteousness also spoke of the hypocrisy, lies, deception and predatory nature of certain religious leaders, the dangers of self-deception, and the punishment of hell for the willful disobedience of evil workers.

Such a study may offer a more comprehensive idea of what Jesus' ministry was all about. Those same topics are talked about by those who received Jesus in the New Testament – i.e. they are mentioned in the epistles…Maybe God is pleased with folks who tell the whole story.

I think he has a point there, Larry!

likeaneagle:

You're gonna get flack for posting that, I would guess. But it's good. I browsed a little. I remember studying the heck out of that teaching at one time. I think it may have been his last public teaching. It brings me back to "the day" and makes me a little sad. What are your thoughts on it?

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Im not trying to derail this thread..but people still have teachings by VP in thier thinking..

these notes were passed onto me...I thought I would share them with you since it covers this very topic..these were hand typed notes, not from a colateral.

I can find nothing wrong with the way it reads..being that Jesus CHrist was the greatest example of love and a Doulos.

I dont know why I should get any flack since the front page of this website is loaded with docs too..

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Well, in that teaching by VP, I love when he gets to "flee ye youthful lusts" part and then states, well, I don't think its particularly sexual... [Duh! Of course he doesn't - then he'd actually have to do the Word] and then goes on to state its talking about wanting materials things.

Yeah, right.

Take the sex out of it, gloss over it, and then say wanting material things is lust, yet he fails to remove the beam from his own eye with his kingdom, which was chock full of toys and possessions.

What a hypocrite.

Edited by Sunesis
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Larry

This is a simple statement of fact.

Rather than assign a personal aspect to it and then try to assert that the man is not fulfilling his ministry, why not deal with that statement first and calmly explain why you disagree with it?

Well, waysider, I don't know that it's a simple statement of fact. I know it to be a simple statement of opinion. I imagine there might be some people who do have that mindset that he speaks of but from what I seen here I don't know of any. Let's not confuse people who disagree with his opinion with those who think he shouldn't be sharing it.

I find it interesting that John stirs up the pot and then let's others defend him. :)

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I find it interesting that John stirs up the pot and then let's others defend him. :)

I find it interesting that a full-time minister gets blamed for not being here all the time continually countering

the attempts of people to discredit anything he says that they don't like.

If he was here all the time, naturally, he would be blamed for neglecting his flock.

If he wasn't a minister, naturally, he would be blamed for not doing something positive and cultivating the flock.

In short, it's determined-by a few- that disagreeing with vpw-and especially, providing documentation

when he contradicted Scripture in teaching or conduct-

makes one a bad Christian, and then after that, the pretexts, justifications and accusations are

assembled. No matter WHAT he did, some here would be indicting that minister.

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Sunesis... I happened to land on that too when I was skimming. I felt sure someone would comment exactly as you did! LOL That's funny. (Of course, the subject and your observation are NOT funny.)

likeaneagle: I don't think it's inappropriate at all. Hope that isn't how it sounded. I say "good," let the man speak for himself. My own feelings are that the teaching has some valuable insights and heart, and it has a lot of "private interpretation" and pride. "Those are THE seven characteristics." I let others have their clear view of him as black or white. To me, he is an enigma and an amalgam.

Well, I'm done with my "processing" about "what VP meant to me" for the morning... I'm late for work, actually.

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I find it interesting that a full-time minister gets blamed for not being here all the time continually countering

the attempts of people to discredit anything he says that they don't like.

I find it interesting that a full-time minister has ANY time to be here at all. :)

I would like to know what scriptural support such a full-time minister has for justifying a ministry of attacking any ministry which has a doctrine contrary to his own.

I also would like to know when John had determine that PFAL was full of errors. Was it before he took the class or after?

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I find it interesting that a full-time minister has ANY time to be here at all. :)

Any person, no matter how busy, can usually fit in a few free moments across a week.

Any minister who just bulls on infinitely without any downtime will be unable to help his

congregation due to insufficient rest.

I would like to know what scriptural support such a full-time minister has for justifying a ministry of attacking any ministry which has a doctrine contrary to his own.
Interesting, but it has no relevance to this discussion.

After all, we don't have any full-time ministers here who have

"a ministry" of "attacking any ministry",

let alone one for "a doctrine contrary to his own."

We do have many posters who are discussing doctrinal errors or what they think are so-

and many posters who expose the practical evils of supposed ministers.

I also would like to know when John had determine that PFAL was full of errors. Was it before he took the class or after?

Perhaps it's worth asking.

Then again, the errors in pfal were there long before he first heard of pfal,

and they remain there to this day,

so timing is interesting on a philosophical level but not a practical one.

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Any person, no matter how busy, can usually fit in a few free moments across a week.

I suppose so. Personally, if I was still in the ministry of reaching out to those who are seeking God I wouldn't waste a moment of my time here. How did that saying go about the goats and the sheep?

Any minister who just bulls on infinitely without any downtime will be unable to help his

congregation due to insufficient rest.

Oh! Are you saying this is a recreational moment for John? :)
I would like to know what scriptural support such a full-time minister has for justifying a ministry of attacking any ministry which has a doctrine contrary to his own.

Interesting, but it has no relevance to this discussion.

WW, make up your mind. One time you speak of the flexibility of these discussions going on in different directions and then you speak of it being important that we stay on topic.

After all, we don't have any full-time ministers here who have "a ministry" of "attacking any ministry",

let alone one for "a doctrine contrary to his own."

:) If you are speaking of those who are "ordained" ministers I'll agree with you. But don't kid yourself. Some people here have made it their "ministry" to attack other ministries. In particular TWI.
We do have many posters who are discussing doctrinal errors or what they think are so-

and many posters who expose the practical evils of supposed ministers.

This site is dedicated to only exposing TWI. Now ask yourself this question: Of all the cults out there which one has the greatest following? The Mormons. The Jehovah Witnesses. If you're really interested in exposing false doctrine and reaching out to those who have succumbed to it -- then obviously you're overlooking cults that have a great following.

I also would like to know when John had determine that PFAL was full of errors. Was it before he took the class or after?

Perhaps it's worth asking.

I wouldn't ask it if I didn't think it was worth asking. Something John has said on his cite actually brought the question up in my mind.

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Oh! Are you saying this is a recreational moment for John? :)

I don't know.

You questioned the suitability of a full-time minister to have any time to post here at all.

Larry:

I find it interesting that a full-time minister has ANY time to be here at all.
So I replied that "ANY" time is a rather absolute standard that is hardly fair to hold people to.

WW:

Any person, no matter how busy, can usually fit in a few free moments across a week.

Any minister who just bulls on infinitely without any downtime will be unable to help his

congregation due to insufficient rest.

So, whether this is recreational, solemn, both, neither, or somewhere in between is a non-issue.

WW, make up your mind. One time you speak of the flexibility of these discussions going on in different directions and then you speak of it being important that we stay on topic.
I was pointing out your INSINUATION that levelled an accusation.

I pointed out it wasn't relevant to what happened.

Larry:

I would like to know what scriptural support such a full-time minister has for justifying a ministry of attacking any ministry which has a doctrine contrary to his own.

Anyone who just supposed it just HAPPENED to sound like you meant it to refer to Juedes when you were discussing him a sentence

ago is just imagining things, I suppose.... <_<

I pointed out it didn't apply to him at all, despite your interest in INSINUATING it did so.

=======

If you are speaking of those who are "ordained" ministers I'll agree with you. But don't kid yourself. Some people here have made it their "ministry" to attack other ministries. In particular TWI.
That is your opinion. As stated, I disagree.
This site is dedicated to only exposing TWI.

I'll agree with you there.

Now ask yourself this question: Of all the cults out there which one has the greatest following? The Mormons. The Jehovah Witnesses. If you're really interested in exposing false doctrine and reaching out to those who have succumbed to it -- then obviously you're overlooking cults that have a great following.

No, we're just not focused on THAT at THIS website.

Feel free to go to THOSE websites and discuss THOSE topics at THOSE websites.

Or even to make a website that focuses on all three.

Or participate at an existing one that does all three.

I'm free to do all of those as well-but I exercise my freedom NOT to do them instead. :)

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I suppose so. Personally, if I was still in the ministry of reaching out to those who are seeking God I wouldn't waste a moment of my time here. How did that saying go about the goats and the sheep?

Oh! Are you saying this is a recreational moment for John? :)

Who are you to decide who and what A minister or God should spend their time on and who or what is a waste?

News flash Larry, we are living breathing souls on the other side of these screens. In spite of your opinions....We are of value, our lives of merit, and John`s input is bringing deliverance to many from the false doctrines of twi wolves.

Same old same old though, you cannot handle the information presented, so you must attack the poster, their motives, their veracity and character....while the man you defend is scum that drugged and raped our sisters in christ...(among other things) and his doctrine made it allowable and now excusable.... <_< .

VP`s ministry was a farce, but rather than come to grips with the deception.... in not being able to accept the true fleshly nature of this man...you have to demonize genuine christians and their ministries that are bringing healing and deliverance to those wounded by the viscious predators of TWI.

Edited by rascal
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Oh! Are you saying this is a recreational moment for John?

I don't know.

Well, you're trying to justify his time spent here. It seems to me that you implied he comes here during his "down-time" from actually ministering to his flock. I consider that to be the same as saying -- he does it for recreational reasons.

You questioned the suitability of a full-time minister to have any time to post here at all.
Yes, I am. I don't see anything in the Bible that justifies what he's doing. He believes it's part of his ministry and I'd like to know where in the Bible does it speak of Christians having such a ministry.
So I replied that "ANY" time is a rather absolute standard that is hardly fair to hold people to.

I'm sure you're aware of the passage that exhorts us to redeem our time because the days are evil. Was that an exhortation to expose false prophets or an exhortation to reach out to those who haven't heard of and accepted Jesus as their Lord?

So, whether this is recreational, solemn, both, neither, or somewhere in between is a non-issue.
Obviously, it's not to you.
I was pointing out your INSINUATION that levelled an accusation.

I pointed out it wasn't relevant to what happened.

Noted, but was this what the topic was about? :)

I pointed out it didn't apply to him at all, despite your interest in INSINUATING it did so.
Well, I've got to admire your passion to defend him. :)
If you're really interested in exposing false doctrine and reaching out to those who have succumbed to it -- then obviously you're overlooking cults that have a great following.

No, we're just not focused on THAT at THIS website.

Oh, so you're a bit selective in who you wish to help escape from the clutches of false prophets and doctrine. Fair enuf. :)

Feel free to go to THOSE websites and discuss THOSE topics at THOSE websites.

Or even to make a website that focuses on all three.

Or participate at an existing one that does all three.

Nice dodge! Translation: Why don't you stfu!
I'm free to do all of those as well-but I exercise my freedom NOT to do them instead. :)

Sure you are but, let's be honest about it. You're not interested in rescuing people who have been hoodwinked and blinded by false prophets and doctrine. You're only interested in . . . hmm . . . denigrating TWI because of what it DID to you. It's a personal thingy.

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Who are you to decide who and what A minister or God should spend their time on and who or what is a waste?

Who are you to judge that VP was a false prophet?

News flash Larry, we are living breathing souls on the other side of these screens. In spite of your opinions....We are of value, our lives of merit, and John`s input is bringing deliverance to many from the false doctrines of twi wolves.
Praise John!!!!!! Still, I wonder -- When John took the PFAL class was he a "sheep" or a "wolf" in sheep's clothing?
Same old same old though, you cannot handle the information presented, so you must attack the poster, their motives, their veracity and character....while the man you defend is scum that drugged and raped our sisters in christ...(among other things) and his doctrine made it allowable and now excusable.... <_< .

My dear, if I couldn't handle the information I wouldn't be addressing it. You simply don't like the fact that I have an opinion that differs from your own and are having a hard time handling it. Thus you resort to attacking me personally. :)

VP`s ministry was a farce, but rather than come to grips with the deception.... in not being able to accept the true fleshly nature of this man...you have to demonize genuine christians and their ministries that are bringing healing and deliverance to those wounded by the viscious predators of TWI.

I'm all for people being healed. I'm not for people denigrating others in order to do so. That takes God out of the equation. Instead of praising God for people getting healed you praise John. Well, excuse me but, I find such praise misdirected and therefore questionable.

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