I think my real point is, how many times does a person have to catch another in a lie, in adultery, in a false prophecy, or in an exaggerated claim two millimeters away from being a lie.. before branding them a liar, a false prophet, a huckster?
As far as the bible is concerned, the prophet wasn't afforded a second chance. His life depended on whether or not the next prophecy came to pass or not.. and even then with a few qualifications.
Unless the king served Baal.
Somebody borrows a mere, stinking five dollars..
"Oh, I'll pay you back this friday.."
"oops, I meant next friday.."
"sorry, I was out of town. make it next week.."
"I swear, next weekend for sure.."
Ten or so weeks later..
"hey buddy, can I borrow five bucks.. I'll pay you back the five, and the other five next week.."
"NO? Are you questioning my INTEGRITY??"
Point is.. twi's mouthpiece has exhibited a PATTERN of falsehood, exaggeration.. some ouright lies, as in "we inform our people of EVERYTHING from soup to peanuts.."
What about vic's failed "prophecies"? "The u.s. is being taken over by "them" in 1976..". There are others, but I don't remember all the details.
loy, regarding Tiger Woods.. "He'll never amount to anything.."
regarding the vatican.. "the pope's gonna buy an aircraft carrier, and come start a new inquisition.."
loy went as far as to read a page out of Bullinger's witness of the stars, and claim it as his own, as if he brought new light..
I really don't think "innocent until proven guilty" is appropriate here. Perhaps in a court of law.
They've proven themselves guilty to my satisfaction. I can understand giving these scumbags the benefit of the doubt.. but I don't have a heck of a lot of doubt anymore.
I think my real point is, how many times does a person have to catch another in a lie, in adultery, in a false prophecy, or in an exaggerated claim two millimeters away from being a lie.. before branding them a liar, a false prophet, a huckster?
What is a "prophet"? And where is it written that prophets can't get something wrong?
As far as the bible is concerned, the prophet wasn't afforded a second chance. His life depended on whether or not the next prophecy came to pass or not.. and even then with a few qualifications.
I understand how easily it is to forget what you were taught concerning revelation as it relates to prophesy.
<snip>
I really don't think "innocent until proven guilty" is appropriate here. Perhaps in a court of law.
The court of public opinion can easily condemn or acquit a person. Your opinion carries no more weight than mine does. Other than with those who believe your opinions are facts.
They've proven themselves guilty to my satisfaction.
Of course. Why would you be unsatisfied?
I can understand giving these scumbags the benefit of the doubt.. but I don't have a heck of a lot of doubt anymore.
Of course you don't. Should I be shocked? :)
So, Larry....
What WAS the relevance of bringing the late Mrs W into the discussion about the legitimacy of vpw?
I presume you meant to add to the discussion by bringing her up, but I missed the relevance.
For the benefit of those of us who did, please explain it outright.
Wolf, I'll leave it up to the readers (both participants and lurkers) to discern the relevance. If you see none, then so be it. I haven't got the time to go wading back through posts to accommodate you. Perhaps Sudo will though. :)
I understand how easily it is to forget what you were taught concerning revelation as it relates to prophesy.
That is another point. How do you pin down a false prophet, based on HIS definition of prophecy, or revelation? vic's definition leaves a few loopholes, with supposed good reasons for exceptions. Doesn't happen? Just claim it was some kind of conditional revelation. "Gawwd told me only once, ya know..".
Trying to convict the vicster of being a false prophet, based on vic's definitions of prophecy, prophets and revelation, would be like trying to convict Clinton of adultery, based on Clinton's definition of sex..
If you want to go further, start a different thread, perhaps I'll join you there.
I won't commit myself on a "perhaps." I have my doubts regarding your knowledge and understanding of the terms and you're not doing much to change that opinion. Not that you care, I imagine. ;)
What about vic's failed "prophecies"? "The u.s. is being taken over by "them" in 1976..".
That one wasn't a failed prophecy because the antidote was contingent upon the Word getting over the USA, which at the time was deemed by twi to happen or at least very close to happening. I believe we did make a difference there spiritually which caused physical blessings.
I was WOW that year and remember one of the foundational scriptures for that year:
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Seriously??? OMG America owes it`s freedom of the last 30 years to the faithfull stand of you wow ambassodors???
That were it not for the spiritual blessings causing physical blessings we would all be speaking russian???
THAT is how you excuse the failed prophesy????
There was another communist take over supposed to happen in 79 ...I suppose it was us wows then that negated THAT prophesy???? wow....thank God for our faithfull stand preventing that catastrophy....
Was it the wows that prevented the y2k disater that was to dismantle our entire country???
Why I think America not to mention the world owes us a debt of gratitude, not to mention monetary compensation for our faithfull stands....
Actually....I think that all sounds pretty delusional.....
Yes, little ol' twi and wows. You are entitled to your opinion though.
I didn't say we WOWs were the cause of the freedom; I said I believed we made a difference at that time. Spiritually, this isn't all that far fetched, except perhaps to the carnal mind. God blesses nations that follow and acknowledge him, and we were worshipping Him and believing Him for continued blessings.
Well, I think that your belief is colored by what they told you in order to cover their bu tts when their prophesies failed to come into fruition...
Didn`t vp himself teach that the only way to know if a prophet was real was if the predictions came to pass?
Better come up with some logical way of covering for their failure....
Kindda like not wanting to admit that the great one was either wrong in his cancer and believing teachings....or he/they failed at believing...
Kind of a rock and a hard place no??? SO what do they tell the believers?? DO they ask for prayer??? You would have thought if thy believed in prayer, that they would have allowed tens of thousands of believers to pray fervently....
Nope they keep his illness a dark dirty little secret and then tell everybody that he died of a broken heart....that he weuld have changed his mind and lived had someone just asked him the right question.....ohhh boo hoo...it was all everyone elses fault...certainly not the man of God for our day and time.....
Didn`t vp himself teach that the only way to know if a prophet was real was if the predictions came to pass?
Yes I think so. Just wanted to point out that his "prediction" from 1976 had a qualifier along with it, and he could have been correct with that particular "prediction" or "prophesy". BTW, I don't consider VP to have ever been a prophet. I always considered him to be a teacher. He called himself "The Teacher".
I think the word "charlatan" may be more fitting. "False prophet" would indicate that he had SOMETHING spiritual to begin with..
He wasn't exactly a visionary.. he was an opportunist. He had been "around the block" a few times before the days of the "beautiful people" he enticed into his fold..
Well nobody asked my opinion but, for those who think Dr. Wierwille was a counterfeit, "false teacher" may be the most accurate. I think that's what I would use if I were inclined to think that way. :)
Thank you for your posts. I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got. Apparently, some may not see the comparison but that's OK. I for one have received much fruit in my life because of VPW. I know I'm part of the minority here and nothing I will say will change that. That's fine too.
Those here who have good intentions.....well, God's the judge. Besides, good intentions never get the job done. So I suppose this thread will continue until the Lord returns.
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mamouda
Quote Teach. Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the
mamouda
I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing
mamouda
Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to
Larry N Moore
Fair enuf. Even telling my story brings a tear to my eyes. But . . . oh well . . . it doesn't matter.
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Ham
Perhaps I'm not being very clear..
I think my real point is, how many times does a person have to catch another in a lie, in adultery, in a false prophecy, or in an exaggerated claim two millimeters away from being a lie.. before branding them a liar, a false prophet, a huckster?
As far as the bible is concerned, the prophet wasn't afforded a second chance. His life depended on whether or not the next prophecy came to pass or not.. and even then with a few qualifications.
Unless the king served Baal.
Somebody borrows a mere, stinking five dollars..
"Oh, I'll pay you back this friday.."
"oops, I meant next friday.."
"sorry, I was out of town. make it next week.."
"I swear, next weekend for sure.."
Ten or so weeks later..
"hey buddy, can I borrow five bucks.. I'll pay you back the five, and the other five next week.."
"NO? Are you questioning my INTEGRITY??"
Point is.. twi's mouthpiece has exhibited a PATTERN of falsehood, exaggeration.. some ouright lies, as in "we inform our people of EVERYTHING from soup to peanuts.."
What about vic's failed "prophecies"? "The u.s. is being taken over by "them" in 1976..". There are others, but I don't remember all the details.
loy, regarding Tiger Woods.. "He'll never amount to anything.."
regarding the vatican.. "the pope's gonna buy an aircraft carrier, and come start a new inquisition.."
loy went as far as to read a page out of Bullinger's witness of the stars, and claim it as his own, as if he brought new light..
I really don't think "innocent until proven guilty" is appropriate here. Perhaps in a court of law.
They've proven themselves guilty to my satisfaction. I can understand giving these scumbags the benefit of the doubt.. but I don't have a heck of a lot of doubt anymore.
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Larry N Moore
I understood your point.
What is a "prophet"? And where is it written that prophets can't get something wrong?I understand how easily it is to forget what you were taught concerning revelation as it relates to prophesy.
<snip>
The court of public opinion can easily condemn or acquit a person. Your opinion carries no more weight than mine does. Other than with those who believe your opinions are facts.Of course. Why would you be unsatisfied?
Of course you don't. Should I be shocked? :)Wolf, I'll leave it up to the readers (both participants and lurkers) to discern the relevance. If you see none, then so be it. I haven't got the time to go wading back through posts to accommodate you. Perhaps Sudo will though. :)
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Ham
That is another point. How do you pin down a false prophet, based on HIS definition of prophecy, or revelation? vic's definition leaves a few loopholes, with supposed good reasons for exceptions. Doesn't happen? Just claim it was some kind of conditional revelation. "Gawwd told me only once, ya know..".
Trying to convict the vicster of being a false prophet, based on vic's definitions of prophecy, prophets and revelation, would be like trying to convict Clinton of adultery, based on Clinton's definition of sex..
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Larry N Moore
:) Ok, Mr. Squirrel -- tell me how you define the terms prophet; prophesy; and revelation. And then tell me how you arrived at those definitions.
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Ham
I'd need a few weeks..
:)
I know.. come to my "class"..
what definition do you want? Old Testament, New Testament? New Age?
I tend to lead toward what some call New Age.
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Larry N Moore
I'm flexible. :)
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Ham
I dunno.. I think it is easier to define what a prophet is not:
1. Not an overbearing, loyalty demanding, sex crazed, legalistic, demented psychopath..
2. Not a habitual liar..
3. Doesn't carry a get out of jail free card in his wallet, i.e., "conditional revelation and prophecy MAY be subject to change.."
what he (or she) IS:
A SERVANT. Perhaps in the new testament sense, a dedicated visionary. Not one who uses their power as an opportunist.
If you want to go further, start a different thread, perhaps I'll join you there.
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Larry N Moore
I won't commit myself on a "perhaps." I have my doubts regarding your knowledge and understanding of the terms and you're not doing much to change that opinion. Not that you care, I imagine. ;)
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oldiesman
That one wasn't a failed prophecy because the antidote was contingent upon the Word getting over the USA, which at the time was deemed by twi to happen or at least very close to happening. I believe we did make a difference there spiritually which caused physical blessings.
I was WOW that year and remember one of the foundational scriptures for that year:
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
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rascal
Seriously??? OMG America owes it`s freedom of the last 30 years to the faithfull stand of you wow ambassodors???
That were it not for the spiritual blessings causing physical blessings we would all be speaking russian???
THAT is how you excuse the failed prophesy????
There was another communist take over supposed to happen in 79 ...I suppose it was us wows then that negated THAT prophesy???? wow....thank God for our faithfull stand preventing that catastrophy....
Was it the wows that prevented the y2k disater that was to dismantle our entire country???
Why I think America not to mention the world owes us a debt of gratitude, not to mention monetary compensation for our faithfull stands....
Actually....I think that all sounds pretty delusional.....
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oldiesman
Yes, little ol' twi and wows. You are entitled to your opinion though.
I didn't say we WOWs were the cause of the freedom; I said I believed we made a difference at that time. Spiritually, this isn't all that far fetched, except perhaps to the carnal mind. God blesses nations that follow and acknowledge him, and we were worshipping Him and believing Him for continued blessings.
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rascal
Well, I think that your belief is colored by what they told you in order to cover their bu tts when their prophesies failed to come into fruition...
Didn`t vp himself teach that the only way to know if a prophet was real was if the predictions came to pass?
Better come up with some logical way of covering for their failure....
Kindda like not wanting to admit that the great one was either wrong in his cancer and believing teachings....or he/they failed at believing...
Kind of a rock and a hard place no??? SO what do they tell the believers?? DO they ask for prayer??? You would have thought if thy believed in prayer, that they would have allowed tens of thousands of believers to pray fervently....
Nope they keep his illness a dark dirty little secret and then tell everybody that he died of a broken heart....that he weuld have changed his mind and lived had someone just asked him the right question.....ohhh boo hoo...it was all everyone elses fault...certainly not the man of God for our day and time.....
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Larry N Moore
Rascal allow me to ask you a question. Hopefully you will answer it as honestly as I answered one you put to me.
Do you believe God can and does heal people?
Follow-up question (if the answer to the above is yes).
How do you explain why some people don't get healed?
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oldiesman
Yes I think so. Just wanted to point out that his "prediction" from 1976 had a qualifier along with it, and he could have been correct with that particular "prediction" or "prophesy". BTW, I don't consider VP to have ever been a prophet. I always considered him to be a teacher. He called himself "The Teacher".
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rascal
Number one Larry, I always answere as honestly as I can...
As for do I believe that God can heal??? Sure I do...Why doesn`t he??? I have no idea
Sometimes the answere is yes, sometimes it is no...I don`t know why.
If it was according to believing or prayer...then vp would have a) never gotten sick...or b) would have been healed and God given the glory.
As neither happened, I can only conclude that he was mistaken in his understanding of sickness, causes, and cures prayers and believing...shrug
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oldiesman
There's another possible choice: © his believing wasn't big enough to receive miraculously healing.
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Ham
I think the word "charlatan" may be more fitting. "False prophet" would indicate that he had SOMETHING spiritual to begin with..
He wasn't exactly a visionary.. he was an opportunist. He had been "around the block" a few times before the days of the "beautiful people" he enticed into his fold..
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oldiesman
Well nobody asked my opinion but, for those who think Dr. Wierwille was a counterfeit, "false teacher" may be the most accurate. I think that's what I would use if I were inclined to think that way. :)
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GrouchoMarxJr
In hindsight, I don't consider Wierwille to have been a teacher. I consider him to have been a predator
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excathedra
well he did teach that well to some, groucho
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livininit
Hey What the Hey, oldiesman, & anotherdan,
Thank you for your posts. I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got. Apparently, some may not see the comparison but that's OK. I for one have received much fruit in my life because of VPW. I know I'm part of the minority here and nothing I will say will change that. That's fine too.
Those here who have good intentions.....well, God's the judge. Besides, good intentions never get the job done. So I suppose this thread will continue until the Lord returns.
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GrouchoMarxJr
You're right...nothing you will say will change that...at least not for me, I know better.
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waysider
Someone said, "Where does it say a prophet can't make a mistake?"( regarding prophesy)
Let me see now----Oh yeah, now I remember, it was in the O.T.
Of course, the context is talking about a "prophesy" failing to come to pass.
Funny, it didn't mention "disclaimers".
It's cited in "the class" for anyone industrious enough to dig it out.
Was he a teacher, a prophet,-------- a puppet, a pirate, a pawn or a king?
Lest we forget, we are using VP's definitions of these things to identify them.
How about if we just say he was a *phony* and leave it at that?
That way the word *phony* can function as a noun instead of an adjective.
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