Well galatians 5 brands any who do as he did as a man of the flesh and states that those that do what he did shall not inherit the kingdom of God....period
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not participate in the drugging and raping of flock.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not indulge in wholesale adultery to the point of inventing a doctrine to make it acceptible.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister wouldn`t savage an innocents reputation and destroy their lives ..
A false Prophet LOOKS like prophet...SOUNDS like a prophet...but is a dangerous individual that we are warned repeatedly to stay away from....
Evidence points to Wierwille as a lying, drunken, serial adulterating, rapist...One who thought nothing of coldly destroying a persons reputation and credibility, deliberately alienating their family members from them.
Hmmmm...Looking at the wholesale slaughter of so many lives at his hands ....and taking into account those destroyed by the ministers he taught....the swath of destruction and even death cut in so many peoples lives....AND the direction his ministry has taken south......I`d have to say morally and scripturally vpw fits the bill as a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Of course, it's only my opinion, but I believe he was a "false prophet" or, at the very least, not at all that he portrayed himself to be.(Intentionally)
I am basing that opinion on an experience that I had in the early days of my involvement that had me baffled until just recently.
I am not going to go into specifics.
I think everyone,TWI and non TwI, has moments in there life that fall into the category of;
"Ah Hah!---So that's what that meant!"
My "Ah Hah" moment came to me as I reviewed various subjects here on GSC.
Well galatians 5 brands any who do as he did as a man of the flesh and states that those that do what he did shall not inherit the kingdom of God....period
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not participate in the drugging and raping of flock.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not indulge in wholesale adultery to the point of inventing a doctrine to make it acceptible.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister wouldn`t savage an innocents reputation and destroy their lives ..
A false Prophet LOOKS like prophet...SOUNDS like a prophet...but is a dangerous individual that we are warned repeatedly to stay away from....
Evidence points to Wierwille as a lying, drunken, serial adulterating, rapist...One who thought nothing of coldly destroying a persons reputation and credibility, deliberately alienating their family members from them.
Hmmmm...Looking at the wholesale slaughter of so many lives at his hands ....and taking into account those destroyed by the ministers he taught....the swath of destruction and even death cut in so many peoples lives....AND the direction his ministry has taken south......I`d have to say morally and scripturally vpw fits the bill as a wolf in sheeps clothing.
But hey that`s just me.
rascal, shame on you!
You MENTIONED Galatians 5, but didn't quote the verses!
You know it's easier to pretend it doesn't sound anything like vpw if you're not actually READING THE VERSES!
Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the KJV. You're referring to 5:19-21.
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
========
Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the NASB. You're referring to 5:19-21.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
He was a false prophet. Any good he might have done was by accident.
I think that he had to steal his material because he was incapable of truly researching for himself. It would not surprise me one bit if his original plans for the Corps did not include any sort of research paper, but when he realized he could get even more from these innocent God loving "keeds" then he incorperated it.
What was it he said about phycics? Something about "there has to be some truth in what they say or nobody would believe anything they say". Something like that...you get the gist. Any words that he spoke that were true came from somebody else. Out of his mind came concepts and words that were suspect at best.
Wolf in sheeps clothing.
Some things he did prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt...God can supercede anyone and God can work in any weather and God can heal all wounds and God was not a part of vp's life in a positive way.
I think that he might have even believed in what he was doing. As I have read back through his life.....everything that he did seemed to be in search to find a way to say what he thought was right.
All things are lawfull....all parts of the body the same...all the women in the kingdom....
He looked for teachings and scriptures that could be tortured into making it biblically justifiable the things that he wanted to do.
I have an uncle that is like this...a serious alcoholic that drives everybody nuts...but his mastery of the scriptures allows him to do as he damned well pleases without guilt.
He may very well have been the most decieved of us all.
He may very well have been the most decieved of us all.
This is something that I have often wondered. Was he ever meek to God? Did he ever really want to serve Him? Did he start out with the right intentions and simply fall pray (very early on) to his own demons. Or was it all a dog and pony show right from the get go?
I totally understand what you are saying about your Uncle. I have a friend that uses scripture to not only prove her personal doctrine of bondage but to prove that we all should live in a control freak society with her as the ultimate authority on God. In fact if you contradict her "doctrine" then she claims that you are possessed and "God" told her so. She reminds me of LCM in his hay day.
Eyes...the people that knew him as a teenager and young man...said that he was a bully...that he was trouble....
He married his wife in secret when they were supposed to be away at college....thta seemed sneaky to me....
I have always been struck how he made his wife leave their few weeks old infant to go to india...
He had an *in you face* attitude to his denomination....and deliberately preached what they asked him not to speak on....
He had no confidence in the guy who led him into speaking in tongues untill the guy was inexcusably rude to his wife. (I have to question THAT guys spirituality, as frankly that flies in the face of every scripture pertaining to how we are to treat one another)
He was alleged to have been thrown out of his church for sexual improprieties with his secretary....
He was a serial adulterer...he was a smoker and an alcoholic...he found ways to make this scripturally acceptible.....
I`d have to say that to me....it seems like he spent his whole life looking for formulas and knowledge to increase his spiritual power.....I never once saw it as an inside heart rendering , life impacting change of the new birth.
I think he thought he knew...I thuink that his knowledge puffed him up and convinced him that he was right.....but in his heart...he was cold calculating and cruel....
Sure he was nice to the people that he liked....but scriptures say that is easy...
I don`t think he was ever right on the inside where it counted or he couldn`t have convinced himself that it was ok to do what he did.....it takes a brokewn individual to drug and rape and then lie and slander to protect ones self.
So basically he was wacked right from the get go. What did Dottie ever see in him? She seemed like such a nice lady. Rotten teacher... but a nice lady.
I am really pleased that God kept that man away from me. From what little I did see up close of the man, I was not favorably impressed. But I had wondered, as I said if he had just spoiled with time. And you have answered my question. Damn shame...can you just imagine if he had been for real...if he had been a real man of the one true God? What a ministry that would have been. *Shakes her head -'cause she still hasnt found the right smiley-guy that does that for her*
I`d have to say that to me....it seems like he spent his whole life looking for formulas and knowledge to increase his spiritual power.....I never once saw it as an inside heart rendering , life impacting change of the new birth.
Yeah.....what you said.
I've brought this information forward before......BUT since there are some new folks around, I'll review some of it. According to Mrs. Wierwille, the up-front EYE-WITNESS of vpw's life and ministry, reveals lots of information in her book Born Again to Serve that was published in 1996. According to Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was growing weary of his ministry work and was strongly thinking about quitting....and looking for secular employment. He was frustrated and going nowhere.
THEN......knowing a year earlier (??) that Rev. BG Leonard had specifically prayed for their daughter and she was healed AND that Leonard was running his Receiving the Holy Spirit classes in Calgary, Alberta, Canada...wierwille phoned BG and flew up there for this February 1953 class. Leonard's ministry and class material THRILLED vpw [Mrs. W's book documents it in her words....thrilled] and vpw takes Mrs. and Don and two carloads of his following to the next class, in June/July of 1953.
Wierwille is a grad of this June/July class and is NOT in the class photo. After this class ends, wierwille heads home and starts signing up relatives, friends and neighbors for "his" October class. With no class syllabi, no charts, no handouts.....wierwille teaches Leonard's class material. Those who attended the Calgary class are considered grads and do not have to pay any registration fee. Seems like Leonard's class format, class photo, registration policies, etc.......were wierwille's new policies, as well.
Add to this.....The Way was incorporated that SAME year, 1953.
When all of this background information is added to wierwille's character and boastings of God's revelation to him and all.......it's obvious to me that wierwille was little more than a business man, a peddler of someone else's material.
Sure, there were pockets of truth in pfal.........so? Much of the pfal foundation was Rev. Leonards' material. It really doesn't take rocket science to connect the dots.
And, when one looks at wierwille's personal life.......narcisstic traits, arrogance, outbursts of anger, degradation of women, pride, bullying, controlling......it all lends toward a man who's life mirrors DECADES OF DECEPTION. He systematically built an inner circle of yes-men (with business savvy, once again) who defied the many red-flags while he lived......BUT with the internet and the passing of time, "those onced silenced are NOW raising their voices."
At the near end of his life, wierwille ANSWERED "the man in the glass" and publically stated his disapproval with his own life and lifestyle by saying, "I wish I were the man I know to be." Not much of a confession, but after DECADES OF DECEPTION......perhaps even he believed his own hype and persona.
When I spoke with Rev. JD before he died, I asked him many questions from a historical point of view - he and several others were the main players/founders of the Jesus Movement. I wanted to know the history before the ones God called were gone.
He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.
JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.
When VP made his famous trip to SF that summer, I was astounded to learn (well.. I guess I really shouldn't have been), that VP spent his free time at the SF porno theaters. Right, really comitted to outreach he was - Not.
VP just targeted the 5 "leaders" of the movement. If he could get some of them, he figured he was on his way.
VP also earlier, fellowshipped with what later were called the Tulsa renegade preachers - all the people he knew, Stiles, Clark, Star Daily, Rufus Mosely, etc. were of this group. After WWII when the country started prospering, they all felt they could make more money if they started their own ministries. Most of them did. VP did too.
I believe it became VP's quest to find something he could market. He wasn't bright enough, or Christian enough to write his own books from his own insights and relationship with God. That's why, when he ran across BG Leonard and his class and was so excited about it, it was because - eureka - I've found my goldmine.
For most people who enjoyed twig and PFAL and the classes available, he was a wonderful old guy. And yes, the Word we heart taught saved so many and lives were healed - too bad this teaching came from BG's heart and not VP's.
I think its those of us who went in the corps who got to see his Jeckyl/Hyde personality.
I always had the dichotomy in my mind - how could the Word and God be so great and in private our "teacher" was such a prick? Cruel to his wife, those around him, drunk many times (drambuie in the coffee or morning 7-up), nasty temper, with his own harem of women, publically humiliating his wife by living in the motorcoach when he was home - not with her. Once he had various women they were tossed away or passed around to others, porno movies for the corps' "learning" - how could this be? Really, how could this be?
It was GS that allowed me to realize, simple. He taught another man's class and work as if it was his own. He hijacked it. And since, because he was "the teacher" and the "man of God for our day and time" much of this was overlooked and the people on the field had no clue.
I believe he was in it for the money. One of the reasons his first people left him, as one said, he had started getting money from the classes and went out and bought a nice new Harley. When this man found out he had done this with supposedly "non-profit" money, he told him he could no longer work with him.
How much material possessions did he amass? Motorcoach, plane, thousands in wardrobe, new cars every year - 5 Harleys (he had a couple he kept at Emporia most people didn't know about), an auditorium, a compound, buildings, land, neighboring farms, houses for his family, and so much more - whatever he wanted, he got. He built an earthly, material kingdom.
How did he do this? I worked in finance in payroll. Simple. In public, he'd show people his paycheck, but in private, we'd get the notes, I'm going shopping tomorrow, please have $500 waiting for me, or other requests. He and his top leaders were given lots of money "off the books."
The man amassed an earthly, material kingdom. Did the heavenly kingdom coming ever cross his mind?
If it did, it was at the end, when he started whining - I wish I was the man I know to be.
People always thought it was so wonderful he said that. I always thought it came from a man who knew he had blown it in this life and couldn't go back and redo it. I think he was very afraid to meet his maker. He was not looking forward to it.
In fact, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict all mankind, I cannot tell you how many testimonies I have read where the person knew, it was then or there make a decision, deathbed accounts where people literally told the people around them, as they were being urged to accept Christ, that they just couldn't do it, it was too late, and would relate specifically when in their life they had had their chance.
I don't think VP really accepted Christ, from his actions. I think he did have an "intellectual" interest in the Bible though. He had to, he had to keep up his public persona as "the man of God."
Then, in true sociopathic form, near the end, he runs off to CG and complains and bitches about everyone and everything in the ministry. Nothing was his fault - oh no... Gee, everyone had let him down, poor me. He was angry. What does he do in his last hours? Watch sports on tv. I think, if I was really concerned about my salvation at the end, I wouldn't be watching tv.
I believe he was a false prophet - and why would we marvel at this? "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." "They entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity."
Wow, Sunesis. What you said. Funny you mentioned VP's true motive in going to San Franscisco. I too, heard that he went there to explore the "free love" movement among the Jesus people. I can't remember who first proposed the idea to me. Probably JAL, but I can't remember for sure.
There is a presence on the Internet of Christians who believe in "free love," "open marriage," etc. Hard to believe I know. So evidently the idea is still alive and well.
I know from the counseling classes I've taken that sexual disfunction normally starts in adolescence. So I find it rather difficult to believe the VP was a man who "succombed to temptation," in the sexual area. Nobody becomes a pervert older in life. It just doesn't happen that way.
As far as whether or not VP was born again, well I think he was. But just because someone is saved, doesn't mean they don't sin. And sin badly. Even narcissitic psycopaths can be born again, I think. But anyway, the question of whether or not he received Jesus as his Lord at one point in his life, is pure speculation. No one can ever know for sure.
I guess I missed all of that excitement. I joined the Corps after he had passed, so I got the joy of the next generation under the yoke of POP.
I must say your account along with Skyriders certainly puts some pieces together for me.
What a piece of camel dung!
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." "They entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity."
When I spoke with Rev. JD before he died, I asked him many questions from a historical point of view - he and several others were the main players/founders of the Jesus Movement. I wanted to know the history before the ones God called were gone.
He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.
JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.
When VP made his famous trip to SF that summer, I was astounded to learn (well.. I guess I really shouldn't have been), that VP spent his free time at the SF porno theaters. Right, really comitted to outreach he was - Not.
VP just targeted the 5 "leaders" of the movement. If he could get some of them, he figured he was on his way.
VP also earlier, fellowshipped with what later were called the Tulsa renegade preachers - all the people he knew, Stiles, Clark, Star Daily, Rufus Mosely, etc. were of this group. After WWII when the country started prospering, they all felt they could make more money if they started their own ministries. Most of them did. VP did too.
I believe it became VP's quest to find something he could market. He wasn't bright enough, or Christian enough to write his own books from his own insights and relationship with God. That's why, when he ran across BG Leonard and his class and was so excited about it, it was because - eureka - I've found my goldmine.
<snip>
I've heard some doozies but this one takes the top prize.
So you have a differing opinion. Excellent. This is a thread asking if we think about vp being a false prophet or good minister with problems, so please state your side or your story.
This information is so new, exciting and informative...there has to be some answers to these questions somewhere?
Like his astrology charts, when did his aquarius moon arise during the month of Ramadan? You know, lets do his “chart”!
Surely some of you dissecting this man’s every move in life over the years, at least know his Zodiac signs? Maybe that can complete the picture to the post mortem.
Cultists, must be able to trust the stars to reveal all the remaining hidden secrets not already posted with tears attached 1 million times before!
Some one has to explain to me what the term..."Rest in Peace" means here!
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mamouda
Quote Teach. Apt to teach, he must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions left over the
mamouda
I had to put up with one for 6 years after I divorced. I understand how Mrs W became another woman after he died! I wrote a blog about them while I was in this relationship and I learned so much doing
mamouda
Rocky I also can tell you I'm very frustrated because I have to unlearn the things I learned and I'm very bad at studying God's Word. So when I have a question I ask God to show me and He leads me to
rascal
Well galatians 5 brands any who do as he did as a man of the flesh and states that those that do what he did shall not inherit the kingdom of God....period
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not participate in the drugging and raping of flock.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister does not indulge in wholesale adultery to the point of inventing a doctrine to make it acceptible.
A genuine Christian, not to mention minister wouldn`t savage an innocents reputation and destroy their lives ..
A false Prophet LOOKS like prophet...SOUNDS like a prophet...but is a dangerous individual that we are warned repeatedly to stay away from....
Evidence points to Wierwille as a lying, drunken, serial adulterating, rapist...One who thought nothing of coldly destroying a persons reputation and credibility, deliberately alienating their family members from them.
Hmmmm...Looking at the wholesale slaughter of so many lives at his hands ....and taking into account those destroyed by the ministers he taught....the swath of destruction and even death cut in so many peoples lives....AND the direction his ministry has taken south......I`d have to say morally and scripturally vpw fits the bill as a wolf in sheeps clothing.
But hey that`s just me.
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waysider
Of course, it's only my opinion, but I believe he was a "false prophet" or, at the very least, not at all that he portrayed himself to be.(Intentionally)
I am basing that opinion on an experience that I had in the early days of my involvement that had me baffled until just recently.
I am not going to go into specifics.
I think everyone,TWI and non TwI, has moments in there life that fall into the category of;
"Ah Hah!---So that's what that meant!"
My "Ah Hah" moment came to me as I reviewed various subjects here on GSC.
Just my opinion
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WordWolf
rascal, shame on you!
You MENTIONED Galatians 5, but didn't quote the verses!
You know it's easier to pretend it doesn't sound anything like vpw if you're not actually READING THE VERSES!
Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the KJV. You're referring to 5:19-21.
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
========
Here's Galatians 5:16-21 in the NASB. You're referring to 5:19-21.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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rascal
Sorry about that....Thanks for picking up the slack word wolf :)
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Eyesopen
Well when you put it that way....
He was a false prophet. Any good he might have done was by accident.
I think that he had to steal his material because he was incapable of truly researching for himself. It would not surprise me one bit if his original plans for the Corps did not include any sort of research paper, but when he realized he could get even more from these innocent God loving "keeds" then he incorperated it.
What was it he said about phycics? Something about "there has to be some truth in what they say or nobody would believe anything they say". Something like that...you get the gist. Any words that he spoke that were true came from somebody else. Out of his mind came concepts and words that were suspect at best.
Wolf in sheeps clothing.
Some things he did prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt...God can supercede anyone and God can work in any weather and God can heal all wounds and God was not a part of vp's life in a positive way.
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rascal
I think that he might have even believed in what he was doing. As I have read back through his life.....everything that he did seemed to be in search to find a way to say what he thought was right.
All things are lawfull....all parts of the body the same...all the women in the kingdom....
He looked for teachings and scriptures that could be tortured into making it biblically justifiable the things that he wanted to do.
I have an uncle that is like this...a serious alcoholic that drives everybody nuts...but his mastery of the scriptures allows him to do as he damned well pleases without guilt.
He may very well have been the most decieved of us all.
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TheInvisibleDan
"...if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet...."
Ezekiel 14:9
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Eyesopen
This is something that I have often wondered. Was he ever meek to God? Did he ever really want to serve Him? Did he start out with the right intentions and simply fall pray (very early on) to his own demons. Or was it all a dog and pony show right from the get go?
I totally understand what you are saying about your Uncle. I have a friend that uses scripture to not only prove her personal doctrine of bondage but to prove that we all should live in a control freak society with her as the ultimate authority on God. In fact if you contradict her "doctrine" then she claims that you are possessed and "God" told her so. She reminds me of LCM in his hay day.
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Ham
A real lamb of God doesn't eat mutton..
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rascal
Eyes...the people that knew him as a teenager and young man...said that he was a bully...that he was trouble....
He married his wife in secret when they were supposed to be away at college....thta seemed sneaky to me....
I have always been struck how he made his wife leave their few weeks old infant to go to india...
He had an *in you face* attitude to his denomination....and deliberately preached what they asked him not to speak on....
He had no confidence in the guy who led him into speaking in tongues untill the guy was inexcusably rude to his wife. (I have to question THAT guys spirituality, as frankly that flies in the face of every scripture pertaining to how we are to treat one another)
He was alleged to have been thrown out of his church for sexual improprieties with his secretary....
He was a serial adulterer...he was a smoker and an alcoholic...he found ways to make this scripturally acceptible.....
I`d have to say that to me....it seems like he spent his whole life looking for formulas and knowledge to increase his spiritual power.....I never once saw it as an inside heart rendering , life impacting change of the new birth.
I think he thought he knew...I thuink that his knowledge puffed him up and convinced him that he was right.....but in his heart...he was cold calculating and cruel....
Sure he was nice to the people that he liked....but scriptures say that is easy...
I don`t think he was ever right on the inside where it counted or he couldn`t have convinced himself that it was ok to do what he did.....it takes a brokewn individual to drug and rape and then lie and slander to protect ones self.
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Bumpy
I have to think about that...what was his "star sign"?
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Eyesopen
So basically he was wacked right from the get go. What did Dottie ever see in him? She seemed like such a nice lady. Rotten teacher... but a nice lady.
I am really pleased that God kept that man away from me. From what little I did see up close of the man, I was not favorably impressed. But I had wondered, as I said if he had just spoiled with time. And you have answered my question. Damn shame...can you just imagine if he had been for real...if he had been a real man of the one true God? What a ministry that would have been. *Shakes her head -'cause she still hasnt found the right smiley-guy that does that for her*
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skyrider
Yeah.....what you said.
I've brought this information forward before......BUT since there are some new folks around, I'll review some of it. According to Mrs. Wierwille, the up-front EYE-WITNESS of vpw's life and ministry, reveals lots of information in her book Born Again to Serve that was published in 1996. According to Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was growing weary of his ministry work and was strongly thinking about quitting....and looking for secular employment. He was frustrated and going nowhere.
THEN......knowing a year earlier (??) that Rev. BG Leonard had specifically prayed for their daughter and she was healed AND that Leonard was running his Receiving the Holy Spirit classes in Calgary, Alberta, Canada...wierwille phoned BG and flew up there for this February 1953 class. Leonard's ministry and class material THRILLED vpw [Mrs. W's book documents it in her words....thrilled] and vpw takes Mrs. and Don and two carloads of his following to the next class, in June/July of 1953.
Wierwille is a grad of this June/July class and is NOT in the class photo. After this class ends, wierwille heads home and starts signing up relatives, friends and neighbors for "his" October class. With no class syllabi, no charts, no handouts.....wierwille teaches Leonard's class material. Those who attended the Calgary class are considered grads and do not have to pay any registration fee. Seems like Leonard's class format, class photo, registration policies, etc.......were wierwille's new policies, as well.
Add to this.....The Way was incorporated that SAME year, 1953.
When all of this background information is added to wierwille's character and boastings of God's revelation to him and all.......it's obvious to me that wierwille was little more than a business man, a peddler of someone else's material.
Sure, there were pockets of truth in pfal.........so? Much of the pfal foundation was Rev. Leonards' material. It really doesn't take rocket science to connect the dots.
And, when one looks at wierwille's personal life.......narcisstic traits, arrogance, outbursts of anger, degradation of women, pride, bullying, controlling......it all lends toward a man who's life mirrors DECADES OF DECEPTION. He systematically built an inner circle of yes-men (with business savvy, once again) who defied the many red-flags while he lived......BUT with the internet and the passing of time, "those onced silenced are NOW raising their voices."
At the near end of his life, wierwille ANSWERED "the man in the glass" and publically stated his disapproval with his own life and lifestyle by saying, "I wish I were the man I know to be." Not much of a confession, but after DECADES OF DECEPTION......perhaps even he believed his own hype and persona.
<_<
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Sunesis
When I spoke with Rev. JD before he died, I asked him many questions from a historical point of view - he and several others were the main players/founders of the Jesus Movement. I wanted to know the history before the ones God called were gone.
He said, one of the main reasons VP came and sought him out was because he had heard there were Christian groups doing orgies. VP wanted in, and wanted back up for this from the Bible - how they had worked it out.
JD said it was more of a swingers party and after one episode never went back but VP kept pestering him for details.
When VP made his famous trip to SF that summer, I was astounded to learn (well.. I guess I really shouldn't have been), that VP spent his free time at the SF porno theaters. Right, really comitted to outreach he was - Not.
VP just targeted the 5 "leaders" of the movement. If he could get some of them, he figured he was on his way.
VP also earlier, fellowshipped with what later were called the Tulsa renegade preachers - all the people he knew, Stiles, Clark, Star Daily, Rufus Mosely, etc. were of this group. After WWII when the country started prospering, they all felt they could make more money if they started their own ministries. Most of them did. VP did too.
I believe it became VP's quest to find something he could market. He wasn't bright enough, or Christian enough to write his own books from his own insights and relationship with God. That's why, when he ran across BG Leonard and his class and was so excited about it, it was because - eureka - I've found my goldmine.
For most people who enjoyed twig and PFAL and the classes available, he was a wonderful old guy. And yes, the Word we heart taught saved so many and lives were healed - too bad this teaching came from BG's heart and not VP's.
I think its those of us who went in the corps who got to see his Jeckyl/Hyde personality.
I always had the dichotomy in my mind - how could the Word and God be so great and in private our "teacher" was such a prick? Cruel to his wife, those around him, drunk many times (drambuie in the coffee or morning 7-up), nasty temper, with his own harem of women, publically humiliating his wife by living in the motorcoach when he was home - not with her. Once he had various women they were tossed away or passed around to others, porno movies for the corps' "learning" - how could this be? Really, how could this be?
It was GS that allowed me to realize, simple. He taught another man's class and work as if it was his own. He hijacked it. And since, because he was "the teacher" and the "man of God for our day and time" much of this was overlooked and the people on the field had no clue.
I believe he was in it for the money. One of the reasons his first people left him, as one said, he had started getting money from the classes and went out and bought a nice new Harley. When this man found out he had done this with supposedly "non-profit" money, he told him he could no longer work with him.
How much material possessions did he amass? Motorcoach, plane, thousands in wardrobe, new cars every year - 5 Harleys (he had a couple he kept at Emporia most people didn't know about), an auditorium, a compound, buildings, land, neighboring farms, houses for his family, and so much more - whatever he wanted, he got. He built an earthly, material kingdom.
How did he do this? I worked in finance in payroll. Simple. In public, he'd show people his paycheck, but in private, we'd get the notes, I'm going shopping tomorrow, please have $500 waiting for me, or other requests. He and his top leaders were given lots of money "off the books."
The man amassed an earthly, material kingdom. Did the heavenly kingdom coming ever cross his mind?
If it did, it was at the end, when he started whining - I wish I was the man I know to be.
People always thought it was so wonderful he said that. I always thought it came from a man who knew he had blown it in this life and couldn't go back and redo it. I think he was very afraid to meet his maker. He was not looking forward to it.
In fact, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict all mankind, I cannot tell you how many testimonies I have read where the person knew, it was then or there make a decision, deathbed accounts where people literally told the people around them, as they were being urged to accept Christ, that they just couldn't do it, it was too late, and would relate specifically when in their life they had had their chance.
I don't think VP really accepted Christ, from his actions. I think he did have an "intellectual" interest in the Bible though. He had to, he had to keep up his public persona as "the man of God."
Then, in true sociopathic form, near the end, he runs off to CG and complains and bitches about everyone and everything in the ministry. Nothing was his fault - oh no... Gee, everyone had let him down, poor me. He was angry. What does he do in his last hours? Watch sports on tv. I think, if I was really concerned about my salvation at the end, I wouldn't be watching tv.
I believe he was a false prophet - and why would we marvel at this? "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Is it not surprising then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." "They entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity."
I guess that just about sums up VP for me.
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ex10
Wow, Sunesis. What you said. Funny you mentioned VP's true motive in going to San Franscisco. I too, heard that he went there to explore the "free love" movement among the Jesus people. I can't remember who first proposed the idea to me. Probably JAL, but I can't remember for sure.
There is a presence on the Internet of Christians who believe in "free love," "open marriage," etc. Hard to believe I know. So evidently the idea is still alive and well.
I know from the counseling classes I've taken that sexual disfunction normally starts in adolescence. So I find it rather difficult to believe the VP was a man who "succombed to temptation," in the sexual area. Nobody becomes a pervert older in life. It just doesn't happen that way.
As far as whether or not VP was born again, well I think he was. But just because someone is saved, doesn't mean they don't sin. And sin badly. Even narcissitic psycopaths can be born again, I think. But anyway, the question of whether or not he received Jesus as his Lord at one point in his life, is pure speculation. No one can ever know for sure.
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Eyesopen
I guess I missed all of that excitement. I joined the Corps after he had passed, so I got the joy of the next generation under the yoke of POP.
I must say your account along with Skyriders certainly puts some pieces together for me.
What a piece of camel dung!
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Larry N Moore
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Eyesopen
I take it that you don't believe the account?
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Larry N Moore
You take it correctly.
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rascal
Least I can`t be accused of dragging THIS thread off topic :)
I`ll add that his own wife was heard to say of him on the day of his funeral, *He was a mean, mean man*
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dmiller
make that two :) :)
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Eyesopen
So you have a differing opinion. Excellent. This is a thread asking if we think about vp being a false prophet or good minister with problems, so please state your side or your story.
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TheInvisibleDan
Very interesting, Sunesis.
A few times I've wished that Vp really had been even half the man he claimed to be.
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Bumpy
This information is so new, exciting and informative...there has to be some answers to these questions somewhere?
Like his astrology charts, when did his aquarius moon arise during the month of Ramadan? You know, lets do his “chart”!
Surely some of you dissecting this man’s every move in life over the years, at least know his Zodiac signs? Maybe that can complete the picture to the post mortem.
Cultists, must be able to trust the stars to reveal all the remaining hidden secrets not already posted with tears attached 1 million times before!
Some one has to explain to me what the term..."Rest in Peace" means here!
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