DO YOU THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE DIRTY BATHWATER?

[rascal]

Good thing you weren`t young female and pretty Dave, or you might be singing a different tune today

Gee I`m sorry I just can`t put on a positive outlook for rape or forced abortions, or my brothers and sisters dying from foolish decisions and teachings by vp and lcm...

I am sorry that I can`t feel upbeat about the humiliation and the face meltings endured...

The bible???Yeah we learned some of that....but most of what we learned was simply twisted into a tool to make us feel required to submit and accept the outrageous treatment.

What good is the bible if THAT s what was used to enslave and cause hurt?

Yeah, I know that it isn`t God`s fault or the scripturse fault that it was misused to hurt and drag people away from his love and protection....never the less...my skin still crawls when I read most scripture, because I remember many verses that I read when they were missaplied to grant someone else authority...when they were used to justify the harm that they did...when they used it to enforce their wills, desires, and lusts.

I personally don`t think anything we learned was worth the cruelty and suffering that was inflicted on innocent yound christians, who`s biggest mistake was looking for God there.

Edited September 12, 2007 by rascal

[anotherDan]

Sir Guess, you are a crapper and a scholar

[anotherDan]

welcome to the a.s.s. club ... a simple spirituality

credo: we are all fundamentally relatively ignorant a$$es who are processing crap (or not) as it comes through the pipes

"holy crap" is one of the most sacred expressions (positive, negative and neutral)

one is instantly qualified simply for being alive

This is why when the Pope speak excathedra, which, being interpreted, "from the throne," it is extra-special communication, not to be taken lightly, because this is where he does his best thinking.

[Abigail]

I was going to put this in the "PFAL" thread, but I can't find it at the moment.

It occurs to me that if everything in PFAL was bad, if everything about TWI was bad - few of us would have stayed for more than one day.

I am not saying everying in PFAL was good, or that everything about TWI was good, but there must have been SOME good there.

Now, I don't really associate much of what I believe with PFAL anymore . I've worked things on my own and "made them my own" so that I couldn't cite to just one source. Though I would have to say the bulk of what I know comes from my own reading, the Chabad website and TWI. At the very least I can credit TWI for my overall familiarity with the NT, to the extent that even after 7 years of rarely ever reading it, I can still remember verses and find them when I want to.

I can now look back on my early days with TWI and think fondly of the wonderful group of people I had the opportunity to spend time with and get to know. If I could hold that moment in time still, I would go back and visit it often.

I defeinitely experienced my share of pain as a result of TWI too. No question about that! But I am coming to a palce in my life where I think it is more balanced for me to remember both the good and the bad, than to just focus on the bad. Focusing solely on the bad makes it seem like such an incredible waste of tiem. But really, I don't think all of it was - - there were some very good years mixed in there - very healing ones at that and THAT certainly wasn't a waste of my time.

I'm not trying to promote TWI. If someone asked my opinion, I would give it honestly and would certainly recommend anyone thinking of getting involved proceed with a GREAT DEAL of caution.

But from the standpoint of healing - of recoverying from the hurts I received during my later years with TWI, I am finding a more balanced view of both the positives and the negatives is very helpful.

Besides, if I had never heard of TWI, I never would have known of Greasespot cafe, and then I never would have met and married my wonderful Sushi! :D

Edited September 15, 2007 by Abigail

[WordWolf]

I was going to put this in the "PFAL" thread, but I can't find it at the moment.

It occurs to me that if everything in PFAL was bad, if everything about TWI was bad - few of us would have stayed for more than one day.

I am not saying everying in PFAL was good, or that everything about TWI was good, but there must have been SOME good there.

Now, I don't really associate much of what I believe with PFAL anymore . I've worked things on my own and "made them my own" so that I couldn't cite to just one source. Though I would have to say the bulk of what I know comes from my own reading, the Chabad website and TWI. At the very least I can credit TWI for my overall familiarity with the NT, to the extent that even after 7 years of rarely ever reading it, I can still remember verses and find them when I want to.

I can now look back on my early days with TWI and think fondly of the wonderful group of people I had the opportunity to spend time with and get to know. If I could hold that moment in time still, I would go back and visit it often.

I defeinitely experienced my share of pain as a result of TWI too. No question about that! But I am coming to a palce in my life where I think it is more balanced for me to remember both the good and the bad, than to just focus on the bad. Focusing solely on the bad makes it seem like such an incredible waste of tiem. But really, I don't think all of it was - - there were some very good years mixed in there - very healing ones at that and THAT certainly wasn't a waste of my time.

I'm not trying to promote TWI. If someone asked my opinion, I would give it honestly and would certainly recommend anyone thinking of getting involved proceed with a GREAT DEAL of caution.

But from the standpoint of healing - of recoverying from the hurts I received during my later years with TWI, I am finding a more balanced view of both the positives and the negatives is very helpful.

Besides, if I had never heard of TWI, I never would have known of Greasespot cafe, and then I never would have met and married my wonderful Sushi! :D

I know it's popular with a few people to consistently mischaracterize most of us and claim

we said nothing in twi was any good,

but that doesn't mean we ever said that.

Very few posters ever claimed such a position.

It's that the bad was SO bad, in specific ways, that we consider any possible

GAIN to be not worth the exposure- in hindsight,

and think the gains could have been received in much less adulterated fashions.

[Abigail]

I know it's popular with a few people to consistently mischaracterize most of us and claim

we said nothing in twi was any good,

but that doesn't mean we ever said that.

Very few posters ever claimed such a position.

It's that the bad was SO bad, in specific ways, that we consider any possible

GAIN to be not worth the exposure- in hindsight,

and think the gains could have been received in much less adulterated fashions.

WordWolf, I know all of us here have fond memories of TWI. I was really just trying to use emphasis to make a point. I think I explained it better in the "newbie" thread, but the thrust of it is - those who have been around the cafe for a long time can "get away with" saying something good about TWI, because the regulars all know us well enough to know we see the bad as well. A newbie isn't offered that grace, it is simpy assumed they are a VPW or TWI apologist, a plant, a troll.

Likewise, I agree exposure in necessary. Otherwise, why does this place even exist. But it is one thing to say "this is what happened to me" or even "this is what happened to my friend" and it is another thing to expect someone who has never met you (or me, or any other poster here) to simply assume what we are saying is truthful and factual. People need time to get to know each other. New people need time to get to know us.

That is really the heart of what I am trying to say in all of this.

[Biblefan Dave]

I know that LCM and the BOT did a lot of hurtful and harmful things to believers. I know that some Way Corps stepped way over the bounds going reproof-crazy to show how "spiritual" they were. Yes, there were women taken advantage of by leaders.

But I also know that bad things have happened to people who had no connection with TWI and bad things still happen to those people. Yet, people in general have different reactions to similar events or circumstances. That is the question we must ask ourselves. Are we blowing what happened to us way out of proportion and harboring bitterness when others simply take the bad with the good and move on? Are we continuing to wallow in pity or are we thankful for the good that has happened to us? As an example, there were many different reactions from New Orleans residents after Hurricane Katrina. Some people vowed that no hurricane was going to chase them away. Others thought it would be too risky to stay there and moved away. Some New Orleans residents took the catastrophe in stride whereas others suffered bouts of depression and fear.

I don't want to minimize the hurt caused by TWI leaders but simply to encourage people to put things in proper perspective.

[Ham]

I dunno. If after exaustive examination, trolling with a fleet of the Navy's finest, a thirty day search by air, and a meticulous sekular search under every underwater rock, maybe there isn't a baby under the murky depths that one previously thought..

[Ham]

*Last call for babies, last call for babies.*

*exit the water immediately, or you are responsible for your own consequences*

*last call for babies..*

[Ham]

*Babies, proceed to the yellow rubber line. Thank you."

[Ham]

"some of us" fight our insanity through life.. others of us have learned to embrace it..

[Seth R.]

There was a baby? No body told me there was a baby. Did you know there was a baby? Why didn't anybody tell me there was a baby?

I mean this is fantastic, it's outrageous and preposterous! I think we may have a case here of mistaken identity. We have what's obviously a bath, and what plainly is some dirty bubbly water, but no baby. Where is the baby?

[Ham]

*After a valiant effort to discover the remains of baby Finney, the captain realizes that with a phase one search, the assumption is made that the surviving infant WANTS to be found..*

[Ham]

I'm too old to have babies anyway..

besides, I'm the wrong gender.

[excathedra]

this poor baby !

[Ham]

I know exie.. I have a little compassion. It's sixty five years old, and it still can't find a job..

[DontWorryBeHappy]

ROTFLMAO!!!!............Mr.Hammeroni!.............you just cracked me up!!!!......too funny!.............thanks!...............................peace.

[Ham]

You're welcome. I'm just doing my best to help out.

I've been thinking of taking the babe to the doctor. They say they have high power lasers that can burn the tattoos off..

might help his job prospects..

Edited October 6, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

Oh.. I don't think we've been properly introduced. You can call me Ham.

:)

[DontWorryBeHappy]

still laughing!!.........ok.......ham.........................

Edited October 6, 2007 by Don'tWorryBeHappy