This questions presumes there is or was an actual baby. Was there ?
You must drain off the dirty bath water first, then look for a baby. I only found a few disconnected members.
While VPW/TWI certainly did not get everything wrong, what they did get wrong was significant enough to put some holes in the figurative cistern. Even a small hole in the bottom of a cistern will eventually drain it.
It may be a case of a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
There were some very interesting ones which made me stop and think about what I was taught, what I know to be true, etc., which was exactly what I was hoping for. I understand that not everything TWI taught about the bible was correct but everything I have found since leaving TWI to be true according to the bible is the baby. The dirty dishwater was the bad or wrong stuff; i.e, bible, believing, etc. I had been taught and/or brainwashed into believing. I don't want to throw the good out just because there were deceitful, preverted and manipulative people in TWI. My concern is there is still that murky water, where I can't seem to find the baby due to the murkiness of the water which brings me to the one of the biggest problems I have had. Maybe I have not gotten all the brainwashing out yet, but I still believe that God's word is true and we all are held accountable for what we know of that word. I sometimes wish I had never been taught any of it, ignorance is bliss!!!
The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
One of the more damaging effects of involvement in the Way for a lot of people has been that they end up disconnected, disenfranchised and downright unfellowshipped (if there's such a word and if there isn't there is now ) when and if they leave.
Whether the reason for leaving is bad experience with other members or leaders, or disagreement with the teaching, or whatever the reason the net result is often that a person ends up feeling like they're standing in the middle of a big bustling Wonder Mall of life, people speeding by and about - and having the feeling of being all alone.
Locating a church of fellow Christians that would accept you shouldn't be a problem, but as you say there are these differences in belief that separate us. Or we allow to do so anyway.
On the JCING topic I'm more interested in what a person believes He is, who He is to them than what He isn't. I don't think the general garden variety discussion on Jesus Christ being or not being God usually gets much traction because it doesn't get off home plate, doesn't get down to the true details of how a person relates to Jesus Christ - as a savior? redeemer? Messiah? Teacher? Or what...? Who was He and who is He now, in relation to how I live and what I expect from life and am trying to do with the one I have?
I've found with many Christians that they believe and think pretty close to how I do and in fact believe He's "God". Others - no-God, and we think very much the same way. Not in everything or every detail but it's not like we're completely on different planets with it. Which is interesting to me. I've had some great discussions and the net result is I really don't disagree with a lot of what goes with JCIG, although intellectually I don't believe that Jesus Christ could truly be called or thought of as "God", as a simple statement of fact and after defining who and what we think "God" is.
Still many do stop right there - that statement of belief so often determines whether any of the rest of it matters. Meanwhile there's this extremely rich and dense quality of life that's being shared with the same Jesus Christ and God but a refusal to recognize it.
I don't struggle with it - the learning and living of my faith is too much fun, too challenging, too cool, to get shlogged down in it. My attitude is to just keep on keepin' on and my prayer to God is that He'll understand. He knows me better than anyone, He knows what to expect. A little help here please!
On a related note, I don't see myself as being "brainwashed" by the Way, or VP or whatever. I always knew who "I" was and my brain was engaged. I understand the concerns people have with that, but it was never one of mine and still isn't. I kind of viewed separating from the Way as a garage cleaning, where you take everything out and put it in the driveway. Liesurely, at my own pace. I've been very fortunate in that my wife and I have shared all our lives together since we were teenagers so we've been able to discuss everything and talk things through. That's a big plus and helps a lot in life overall, having or finding someone you can talk to who won't get weird with you no matter what comes up.
In the end what you keep and take and set aside for future perusal is up to you. Be happy with it, it's your life, enjoy it.
I can't seem to find the baby due to the murkiness of the water which brings me to the one of the biggest problems I have had. Maybe I have not gotten all the brainwashing out yet, but I still believe that God's word is true and we all are held accountable for what we know of that word. I sometimes wish I had never been taught any of it, ignorance is bliss!!!
I think that "being held accountable" stuff was really part of the control mechanism(IMO)
Sure, God expects that you will use what you know but they(TWI) used that to hold a weight over our heads.
"Oh, golly, now that you know the 'great secrets of the universe', you can never ever go back to who you used to be or the devil will chop you into little pieces!" "You'll be a greasespot by midnight!"
Well, I left before the greasespot quote but not before the "You can never be the same again." junk.
It's all part of how they kept us under control and reluctant to leave. It's BS.
The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
snip
I have had some trouble with that myself but you know what?
Why exactly is it so danged important that I refuse to consider that maybe(just maybe) that issue is just not as cut and dry as they insisted? Maybe they were even wrong.
The spiritual, philosophical magnitude of the subject is too large for human understanding anyway.
So why worry about it? God will not punish you because you DON'T "know that you know that you know."
Maybe He is, maybe He isn't.(JC= God)
It's just not that important that you swear your unrelenting vow of loyalty to either side of the argument.
I don't believe in the Trinity either. For a long time, I couldn't go to church simply because ANY organized religious meeting reminded me of TWI. About a year ago, I attended a service out of respect for a family who had invited me to their baby's "dedication". I was impressed and have gone back many times. This church believes in the Trinity. But rarely do I hear anyone praying to Jesus, and never have I heard any discussion about Jesus being God. This church is very community oriented, which I believe is true Christianity. Doctrinal debates just don't happen there. Instead, the focus is on helping each other, and as a result people get to see God's love.
Examples of their work:
-They staff an ambulance that runs three nights a week, providing blankets, water, and referrals to shelters and other resources for the homeless. These are not EMT's, just church people. They pray with these folks. They don't "confront with the Word". Their license plate says "Luke 911".
-This summer they volunteered crews and materials to re-build the fences that were burned out in last summer's wildfires that damaged a lot of pasture land around here. The ranchers were as out-of-touch with God as the homeless people were. More prayer. Not mall witnessing.
-They sent workers to clean up an ignored old cemetary in our city, repairing broken tombstones and re-seeding the grounds.
-They held a BBQ at a large trailer court which is home for many low-income people. After the residents shared in the cooking and eating, they joined the volunteers in building a new playground for the children who live there. Prior to this the kids only playground was the street.
-They run AA and NA meetings, support groups for the bereaved, for the divorced, for single mothers of young children, etc.
You get the picture. This is REAL Christianity, which doesn't leave much opportunity for arguing over doctrine. When I'm there on Sunday mornings, it doesn't bother me anymore, if a Trinity comment comes up. I don't have to believe it, and I'm still accepted there.
I’ve read all of the comments and particularly agree with Oakspear about all of us individually keeping different parts of our twi teachings and being comfortable with that. Even if it’s agreeing the proper way to set a formal table (for those here who no longer profess Christianity), we still retain parts of our way training.
I agree with Shifra about the parts that are important in a church and looked for one like that for a long time but didn’t find one. That’s ok now because I no longer think I have to go to church every Sunday or at all if I don’t feel led to do so. I still pray exactly the same amount and fellowship with my Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and hopefully, the Holy Spirit. I haven’t gotten into arguments with anyone for many, many years about Bible doctrines because it is so fruitless and not what Jesus asked us to do. “You will know them by their love” resonates loud and clear. I believe loving people is what it’s all about.
I was only ever in it for the Bible knowledge/helping people aspect, anyway, or so I thought, but found the longer I stuck around, the more co-dependent I became on the group. That is what felt so lacking once I left. I was used to being part of a group. So, I kept trying to replace that with two way off-shoots. After being burned by the second, I was cured! I thank God for that everyday! LOL! The leaders of that group helped me to wake up by continuing their way practices by gossiping about everyone who attended their meetings. After several of us stuck our heads together, we discovered we’d been supporting The Way, in practice, all over again. What a revelation! We had been doing the same things over and over again and were expecting different results! If that’s what you feel you need, is “Way-lite,” then go for it. But, I suspect since you’re on this board you’re searching for real answers.
Personally, I haven’t been this happy—ever. I still retain friendships with others who were in The Way and only those who don’t need an artificial hierarchy in their relationships. In other words, I don’t stay in touch with people who still have way-thinking to the extent that they have to function as either the leader or the follower in every relationship. That is not friendship. I had a false sense of responsibility also for many years. Thank God I no longer see myself as responsible for anyone but myself! And, isn’t that what the Bible was trying to tell us when the veil was broken the day of the crucifixion? We have direct access to God. He really does hear us!
The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
Maybe a question.
How long have you been out? I've been out since 1996. Only within the last year have I been able to listen to people sing "holy, holy holy..... one God in three persons..." without having a negative reaction.
But as far as shunning over a different belief is concerned: maybe it is the best thing to happen. You know right away, you've left one cult for another.
It may sound pessimistic.. but I don't look for the kind of friendships that I THOUGHT I had in twi. As real as they seemed, the "fellowship", it proved to be an illusion anyway.
Sometimes I look for something a lot deeper.. but most people can't go there.
maybe if the "baby" is forty eight years old, weighs 257 pounds.. maybe it doesn't NEED the bathwater. Doesn't need tossed out necessarily, but it would be nice if it got a job and it's own residence..
...The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
Hi Roses – take your time processing everything! The JC is God/not God was a big issue for me for the longest time after I left TWI…Now I’ve gravitated back to many of my beliefs before I got into TWI. I was raised Roman Catholic – and so now feel very comfortable in the Trinitarian camp. I am a study bug and this used to be one of the most critical doctrines I studied – not anymore. You may want to search the doctrinal forum here – there’s been a few interesting discussions on the JC is God/not God issue.
Now I’m not saying this is the right way to go about it – but how I determine if a doctrine is critical is by looking at how well defined it is in Scripture as well as its practical impact. I think the issue of whether JC is God or not could swing either way from the amount of Scripture and logic both sides use. I go with what makes sense to me – so I lean toward Trinitarian…Now onto the practical impact – let’s look at one Christian who believes Jesus is God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. Another Christian believes Jesus is not God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. What’s the difference?
I get along great with everyone – regardless of their beliefs – even if they’re not Christian. About the only time I run into a problem is when the practical impact of someone’s doctrine/beliefs runs counter to the moral dictates of Scripture. For example, if someone believes it’s okay to commit adultery, sexually molest women or plagiarize – I don’t get along with them very well. Maybe it’s just me.
The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
Well - I figured long ago that as long as Jesus and God knew who they were, I could handle not having it all figured out.
I go back and forth a lot on this issue - and it doesn't bother me. I no longer feel a deep need to correct someone when they refer to the Trinity. If they try to engage me in an argument, I simply ask them if they believe in God, if they believe in Jesus Christ, and if they believe that Jesus is Lord.
If they reply in the affirmative, I figure we have a LOT of things we agree on - and that gives more than enough to discuss.
Well - I figured long ago that as long as Jesus and God knew who they were, I could handle not having it all figured out.
I go back and forth a lot on this issue - and it doesn't bother me. I no longer feel a deep need to correct someone when they refer to the Trinity. If they try to engage me in an argument, I simply ask them if the believe in God, if the believe in Jesus Christ, and if they believe that Jesus is Lord.
If they reply in the affirmative, I figure we have a LOT of things we agree on - and that gives more than enough to discuss.
I think the biggest thing that helped me was learning that it was OK not to know everything, and to be comfortable with not always having the perfect explanation. I had to learn that God was bigger than anything I could ever comprehend, and be able to sit in awe of that.
It took a lot of pressure off. He's my Dad, and He knows best. I just have to trust in Him and that His nature will work in me.
Everything else is just not all that important.
The next biggest thing that helped was putting a focus on the life of Jesus Christ rather than the epistles while reading the Bible. (I got a couple new versions like WordWolf said - ones with no notes in them! That way when I was reading I didn't hear LCM's of VPW's voice reading the words in my head.) It helps to understand the simplicity of what he lived. He broke it down like this - Love God, love your neighbor as yourself.
Greatest thing is to LOVE!! Everything else fits under that heading. If it doesn't THEN throw it out!
Again, thanks to you all for your responses. You are absolutely correct, I will not be concerned about this or any of the other things I learned. What I need to focus on is God, living day to day with him.
Again, thanks to you all for your responses. You are absolutely correct, I will not be concerned about this or any of the other things I learned. What I need to focus on is God, living day to day with him.
How absolutely simple!
THANKS ALL!
That's great Roses! If at any time you feel like sharing how God is working in your life I for one would love to hear about it.
On many Greasespot forums, one can see a variety of different attitudes toward TWI. Some take great pleasure in trying to show how many different things were wrong with TWI. Some are convinced that everything was wrong with it. Some are convinced they were brain-washed by this evil cult. Some still feel that TWI had many good things to offer but the leadership was all screwed up and treated people very badly.
I do not relish in bashing TWI to show great intellect. I don't relish in VPW dying in or in LCM's disgraceful exit from TWI. I never felt I was brain-washed. When I left in '87, I simply felt that I could not, in all good conscience, continue to associate with an organization where the top leadership had rejected rightful reproof and chose to continue in erroroneous doctrines.
I do still believe that there is clear and distinct evidence from the scriptures that Jesus Christ is not God. I do still believe that the dead are not alive now. I do still believe that the Bible does contain God's will for our lives. I do still believe that there are logical methods for ascertaining the meaning of scripture.
On the other hand, the only thing that the Bible clearly tells us about the original sin is that it was disobedience to God. As for the day Christ died, I have seen logical arguments for him dying on Wednesday, Friday, and, in one argument, Thursday, even. So, I am thankful for the sacrifice Jesus made so that we could be born again, regardless of what day it was. As for whether there were 2 or 4 that died with Christ, I don't know and don't know. What I care about is the one in the middle who died for our sins.
There is a clear difference between the Old Testament law of tithing of one-tenth of one's income and Corinthians which simply tells us to give as it is purposed in our hearts. Nowhere does Corinthians say that it has to be more than 1/10th.
I do believe that adultery is sin, and the leaders of TWI did not. I do believe that people who witness based upon the grateful in their hearts for what God did for them, not to impress others, especially leaders who pressure followers to perform or produce to some statistical level.
I am thankful for the time that I was in TWI. I developed a love for God and for the Lord Jesus Christ. I developed an understanding and an appreciation for God's Word. I am also thankful that people exposed the errors that the top leaders were propounding.
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Goey
Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?
This questions presumes there is or was an actual baby. Was there ?
You must drain off the dirty bath water first, then look for a baby. I only found a few disconnected members.
While VPW/TWI certainly did not get everything wrong, what they did get wrong was significant enough to put some holes in the figurative cistern. Even a small hole in the bottom of a cistern will eventually drain it.
It may be a case of a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
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WhiteDove
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Tom Strange
I just take showers...
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pond
how cute chopped liver
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rosestoyou
Thanks everyone for your responses!
There were some very interesting ones which made me stop and think about what I was taught, what I know to be true, etc., which was exactly what I was hoping for. I understand that not everything TWI taught about the bible was correct but everything I have found since leaving TWI to be true according to the bible is the baby. The dirty dishwater was the bad or wrong stuff; i.e, bible, believing, etc. I had been taught and/or brainwashed into believing. I don't want to throw the good out just because there were deceitful, preverted and manipulative people in TWI. My concern is there is still that murky water, where I can't seem to find the baby due to the murkiness of the water which brings me to the one of the biggest problems I have had. Maybe I have not gotten all the brainwashing out yet, but I still believe that God's word is true and we all are held accountable for what we know of that word. I sometimes wish I had never been taught any of it, ignorance is bliss!!!
The biggest problem I am having is JC is not GOD. There is not one other church, that I have found, that believes this. I have gone to many churches since my leaving TWI and I don't disclose this information anymore because I am immediately shunned even from friends who are so-called Christians. So I am not comfortable going to churches anymore because of this one thing. I don't believe God wants us to be an island but that is what I have become because of my belief in this one thing. Any thoughts?
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socks
Glad you're still here!
One of the more damaging effects of involvement in the Way for a lot of people has been that they end up disconnected, disenfranchised and downright unfellowshipped (if there's such a word and if there isn't there is now
) when and if they leave.
Whether the reason for leaving is bad experience with other members or leaders, or disagreement with the teaching, or whatever the reason the net result is often that a person ends up feeling like they're standing in the middle of a big bustling Wonder Mall of life, people speeding by and about - and having the feeling of being all alone.
Locating a church of fellow Christians that would accept you shouldn't be a problem, but as you say there are these differences in belief that separate us. Or we allow to do so anyway.
On the JCING topic I'm more interested in what a person believes He is, who He is to them than what He isn't. I don't think the general garden variety discussion on Jesus Christ being or not being God usually gets much traction because it doesn't get off home plate, doesn't get down to the true details of how a person relates to Jesus Christ - as a savior? redeemer? Messiah? Teacher? Or what...? Who was He and who is He now, in relation to how I live and what I expect from life and am trying to do with the one I have?
I've found with many Christians that they believe and think pretty close to how I do and in fact believe He's "God". Others - no-God, and we think very much the same way. Not in everything or every detail but it's not like we're completely on different planets with it. Which is interesting to me. I've had some great discussions and the net result is I really don't disagree with a lot of what goes with JCIG, although intellectually I don't believe that Jesus Christ could truly be called or thought of as "God", as a simple statement of fact and after defining who and what we think "God" is.
Still many do stop right there - that statement of belief so often determines whether any of the rest of it matters. Meanwhile there's this extremely rich and dense quality of life that's being shared with the same Jesus Christ and God but a refusal to recognize it.
I don't struggle with it - the learning and living of my faith is too much fun, too challenging, too cool, to get shlogged down in it. My attitude is to just keep on keepin' on and my prayer to God is that He'll understand. He knows me better than anyone, He knows what to expect.
A little help here please!
On a related note, I don't see myself as being "brainwashed" by the Way, or VP or whatever. I always knew who "I" was and my brain was engaged. I understand the concerns people have with that, but it was never one of mine and still isn't. I kind of viewed separating from the Way as a garage cleaning, where you take everything out and put it in the driveway. Liesurely, at my own pace. I've been very fortunate in that my wife and I have shared all our lives together since we were teenagers so we've been able to discuss everything and talk things through. That's a big plus and helps a lot in life overall, having or finding someone you can talk to who won't get weird with you no matter what comes up.
In the end what you keep and take and set aside for future perusal is up to you. Be happy with it, it's your life, enjoy it.
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waysider
I have had some trouble with that myself but you know what?
Why exactly is it so danged important that I refuse to consider that maybe(just maybe) that issue is just not as cut and dry as they insisted? Maybe they were even wrong.
The spiritual, philosophical magnitude of the subject is too large for human understanding anyway.
So why worry about it? God will not punish you because you DON'T "know that you know that you know."
Maybe He is, maybe He isn't.(JC= God)
It's just not that important that you swear your unrelenting vow of loyalty to either side of the argument.
PHEW! Guess I got carried away there.
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Shifra
Roses,
I don't believe in the Trinity either. For a long time, I couldn't go to church simply because ANY organized religious meeting reminded me of TWI. About a year ago, I attended a service out of respect for a family who had invited me to their baby's "dedication". I was impressed and have gone back many times. This church believes in the Trinity. But rarely do I hear anyone praying to Jesus, and never have I heard any discussion about Jesus being God. This church is very community oriented, which I believe is true Christianity. Doctrinal debates just don't happen there. Instead, the focus is on helping each other, and as a result people get to see God's love.
Examples of their work:
-They staff an ambulance that runs three nights a week, providing blankets, water, and referrals to shelters and other resources for the homeless. These are not EMT's, just church people. They pray with these folks. They don't "confront with the Word". Their license plate says "Luke 911".
-This summer they volunteered crews and materials to re-build the fences that were burned out in last summer's wildfires that damaged a lot of pasture land around here. The ranchers were as out-of-touch with God as the homeless people were. More prayer. Not mall witnessing.
-They sent workers to clean up an ignored old cemetary in our city, repairing broken tombstones and re-seeding the grounds.
-They held a BBQ at a large trailer court which is home for many low-income people. After the residents shared in the cooking and eating, they joined the volunteers in building a new playground for the children who live there. Prior to this the kids only playground was the street.
-They run AA and NA meetings, support groups for the bereaved, for the divorced, for single mothers of young children, etc.
You get the picture. This is REAL Christianity, which doesn't leave much opportunity for arguing over doctrine. When I'm there on Sunday mornings, it doesn't bother me anymore, if a Trinity comment comes up. I don't have to believe it, and I'm still accepted there.
I hope you can find a church like this.
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waterbuffalo
Hi Roses,
Welcome to gsc! So nice to “see” you here.
I’ve read all of the comments and particularly agree with Oakspear about all of us individually keeping different parts of our twi teachings and being comfortable with that. Even if it’s agreeing the proper way to set a formal table (for those here who no longer profess Christianity), we still retain parts of our way training.
I agree with Shifra about the parts that are important in a church and looked for one like that for a long time but didn’t find one. That’s ok now because I no longer think I have to go to church every Sunday or at all if I don’t feel led to do so. I still pray exactly the same amount and fellowship with my Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and hopefully, the Holy Spirit. I haven’t gotten into arguments with anyone for many, many years about Bible doctrines because it is so fruitless and not what Jesus asked us to do. “You will know them by their love” resonates loud and clear. I believe loving people is what it’s all about.
I was only ever in it for the Bible knowledge/helping people aspect, anyway, or so I thought, but found the longer I stuck around, the more co-dependent I became on the group. That is what felt so lacking once I left. I was used to being part of a group. So, I kept trying to replace that with two way off-shoots. After being burned by the second, I was cured! I thank God for that everyday! LOL! The leaders of that group helped me to wake up by continuing their way practices by gossiping about everyone who attended their meetings. After several of us stuck our heads together, we discovered we’d been supporting The Way, in practice, all over again. What a revelation! We had been doing the same things over and over again and were expecting different results! If that’s what you feel you need, is “Way-lite,” then go for it. But, I suspect since you’re on this board you’re searching for real answers.
Personally, I haven’t been this happy—ever. I still retain friendships with others who were in The Way and only those who don’t need an artificial hierarchy in their relationships. In other words, I don’t stay in touch with people who still have way-thinking to the extent that they have to function as either the leader or the follower in every relationship. That is not friendship. I had a false sense of responsibility also for many years. Thank God I no longer see myself as responsible for anyone but myself! And, isn’t that what the Bible was trying to tell us when the veil was broken the day of the crucifixion? We have direct access to God. He really does hear us!
Well, have a cuppa on me. Blessings, Roses!
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Ham
Maybe a question.
How long have you been out? I've been out since 1996. Only within the last year have I been able to listen to people sing "holy, holy holy..... one God in three persons..." without having a negative reaction.
But as far as shunning over a different belief is concerned: maybe it is the best thing to happen. You know right away, you've left one cult for another.
It may sound pessimistic.. but I don't look for the kind of friendships that I THOUGHT I had in twi. As real as they seemed, the "fellowship", it proved to be an illusion anyway.
Sometimes I look for something a lot deeper.. but most people can't go there.
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Ham
hmm. Well..
maybe if the "baby" is forty eight years old, weighs 257 pounds.. maybe it doesn't NEED the bathwater. Doesn't need tossed out necessarily, but it would be nice if it got a job and it's own residence..
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T-Bone
Hi Roses – take your time processing everything! The JC is God/not God was a big issue for me for the longest time after I left TWI…Now I’ve gravitated back to many of my beliefs before I got into TWI. I was raised Roman Catholic – and so now feel very comfortable in the Trinitarian camp. I am a study bug and this used to be one of the most critical doctrines I studied – not anymore. You may want to search the doctrinal forum here – there’s been a few interesting discussions on the JC is God/not God issue.
Now I’m not saying this is the right way to go about it – but how I determine if a doctrine is critical is by looking at how well defined it is in Scripture as well as its practical impact. I think the issue of whether JC is God or not could swing either way from the amount of Scripture and logic both sides use. I go with what makes sense to me – so I lean toward Trinitarian…Now onto the practical impact – let’s look at one Christian who believes Jesus is God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. Another Christian believes Jesus is not God and tries to obey Him to the best of his ability. What’s the difference?
I get along great with everyone – regardless of their beliefs – even if they’re not Christian. About the only time I run into a problem is when the practical impact of someone’s doctrine/beliefs runs counter to the moral dictates of Scripture. For example, if someone believes it’s okay to commit adultery, sexually molest women or plagiarize – I don’t get along with them very well. Maybe it’s just me.
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doojable
Well - I figured long ago that as long as Jesus and God knew who they were, I could handle not having it all figured out.
I go back and forth a lot on this issue - and it doesn't bother me. I no longer feel a deep need to correct someone when they refer to the Trinity. If they try to engage me in an argument, I simply ask them if they believe in God, if they believe in Jesus Christ, and if they believe that Jesus is Lord.
If they reply in the affirmative, I figure we have a LOT of things we agree on - and that gives more than enough to discuss.
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waterbuffalo
You sound like a wise woman, Dooj!
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JavaJane
Hi, Roses!!
I think the biggest thing that helped me was learning that it was OK not to know everything, and to be comfortable with not always having the perfect explanation. I had to learn that God was bigger than anything I could ever comprehend, and be able to sit in awe of that.
It took a lot of pressure off. He's my Dad, and He knows best. I just have to trust in Him and that His nature will work in me.
Everything else is just not all that important.
The next biggest thing that helped was putting a focus on the life of Jesus Christ rather than the epistles while reading the Bible. (I got a couple new versions like WordWolf said - ones with no notes in them! That way when I was reading I didn't hear LCM's of VPW's voice reading the words in my head.) It helps to understand the simplicity of what he lived. He broke it down like this - Love God, love your neighbor as yourself.
Greatest thing is to LOVE!! Everything else fits under that heading. If it doesn't THEN throw it out!
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doojable
That's a lot nicer than some folks would say... ;)
Thanks!
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rosestoyou
Again, thanks to you all for your responses. You are absolutely correct, I will not be concerned about this or any of the other things I learned. What I need to focus on is God, living day to day with him.
How absolutely simple!
THANKS ALL!
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Larry N Moore
That's great Roses! If at any time you feel like sharing how God is working in your life I for one would love to hear about it.
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Ham
I've heard someone say that a baby, under normal circumstances won't fit down a drain..
:)
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Larry N Moore
Them there nuts must be spiked today, Mr. Squirrel. You're on a roll with one liners. ;)
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Ham
"we all must do our part.."
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excathedra
do i need to read this thread ?
does doreen ?
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Ham
I dunno Exie. But I think Doreen threw it out with the bathwater..
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Biblefan Dave
On many Greasespot forums, one can see a variety of different attitudes toward TWI. Some take great pleasure in trying to show how many different things were wrong with TWI. Some are convinced that everything was wrong with it. Some are convinced they were brain-washed by this evil cult. Some still feel that TWI had many good things to offer but the leadership was all screwed up and treated people very badly.
I do not relish in bashing TWI to show great intellect. I don't relish in VPW dying in or in LCM's disgraceful exit from TWI. I never felt I was brain-washed. When I left in '87, I simply felt that I could not, in all good conscience, continue to associate with an organization where the top leadership had rejected rightful reproof and chose to continue in erroroneous doctrines.
I do still believe that there is clear and distinct evidence from the scriptures that Jesus Christ is not God. I do still believe that the dead are not alive now. I do still believe that the Bible does contain God's will for our lives. I do still believe that there are logical methods for ascertaining the meaning of scripture.
On the other hand, the only thing that the Bible clearly tells us about the original sin is that it was disobedience to God. As for the day Christ died, I have seen logical arguments for him dying on Wednesday, Friday, and, in one argument, Thursday, even. So, I am thankful for the sacrifice Jesus made so that we could be born again, regardless of what day it was. As for whether there were 2 or 4 that died with Christ, I don't know and don't know. What I care about is the one in the middle who died for our sins.
There is a clear difference between the Old Testament law of tithing of one-tenth of one's income and Corinthians which simply tells us to give as it is purposed in our hearts. Nowhere does Corinthians say that it has to be more than 1/10th.
I do believe that adultery is sin, and the leaders of TWI did not. I do believe that people who witness based upon the grateful in their hearts for what God did for them, not to impress others, especially leaders who pressure followers to perform or produce to some statistical level.
I am thankful for the time that I was in TWI. I developed a love for God and for the Lord Jesus Christ. I developed an understanding and an appreciation for God's Word. I am also thankful that people exposed the errors that the top leaders were propounding.
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