Well as all things scriptural I immediately refer to what was taught in TWI and then send it through the ole logic sifter and see what falls out. The I add all that I know now on the subject and what I personally think about it. Then I end up with this....
In the OT it is indicated quite often that God directly tells Israel not to worship other gods. In many of those instances He is refering to a specific god. So that kind of leans away from the TWI stance that "anything" can be a god. I think that there is a fine line between making work your god and the god of the harvest. I think that a god requires certain criteria to be a god.
To be a god they must be worshipped, sacrificed to, a certain amount of belief is placed in them and they always have some sort of image (like a statue). All gods have rules of worship, dress, morality, and behavior. And all gods have a single point of worship even if it is many headed. So work still qualifies. Except does God ever address work as a god? Or any other similar thing?
But as we have discussed before just because a god had a different name than what we call ours today does not mean that they are not one in the same. Perhaps to worship an ideal or a set of moral values that are contrary to those of JWHW would be worshipping another god. Certainly the blatent example would be Satan who has a very different set of moral values. But others that are more subtle would be harder to detect.
In the book of Romans the fashioning of an image and then worshipping it is idolatry because it is an image of that which was created and not the Creator. Given that piece of information, if our God has an image then it is the wrong one.
Hmm, strange gods. I go with Gen 6:4 - fallen angels corrupting the human race.
I've posted pictures of these beings. I believe they did rule over ancient civilizations and were worshipped as Gods. Their names all relate to heavenly stars or the heavenlies. Their memory and cruelty lives on. It was tempting to worship these gods.
In truth, they are nothing but fallen angels, but to mankind, they were "Gods."
Angels in heaven, I think that's what God means when he tells Israel not to worship them. As many of the peoples around them did, or the idols in their memory of them.
To be a god they must be worshipped, sacrificed to, a certain amount of belief is placed in them and they always have some sort of image (like a statue). All gods have rules of worship, dress, morality, and behavior. And all gods have a single point of worship even if it is many headed. So work still qualifies. Except does God ever address work as a god? Or any other similar thing?
Well, there certainly are references to images, wooden idols which have no power, etc. I think those could certainly qualify as false God's if one thinks the piece of wood itself is God, as opposed to being somehow symbolic like the cross, for example. Certainly we make sacrifices to things in our lives - often in order to gain one thing you have to sacrifice another. For example, in order to earn an income I have to sacrifice some of my time with my children. So, at what point does the sacrifice become great enough to qualify as idolatry? VPW claimed he would lock himself in a trailer for days at a time to study the word, that his family was not allowed to interrupt him - many now might say he worshipped the bible over God.
But as we have discussed before just because a god had a different name than what we call ours today does not mean that they are not one in the same. Perhaps to worship an ideal or a set of moral values that are contrary to those of JWHW would be worshipping another god. Certainly the blatent example would be Satan who has a very different set of moral values. But others that are more subtle would be harder to detect.
I can see where worshipping ideals or values contrary to JWHW's could be considered idolatry too. But then it comes back to being certain one is correct or incorrect about what JWHW's values are. Some are pretty clear, regarding murder and rape, for example. Other's may be a bit muddier, given the translations we have today. What about the sabbath, for instance? Many of us don't really keep the sabbath, is that idolatry? Are we worshipping whatever it is that is preventing us from keeping it? By the same token, I think many of us have seen it is quite possible to become so legalistic about keeping the laws that they too can become idols, which is a lot of what Jesus preached against.
In the book of Romans the fashioning of an image and then worshipping it is idolatry because it is an image of that which was created and not the Creator. Given that piece of information, if our God has an image then it is the wrong one.
Ok I gave it a stab...who's next?
Hmm, strange gods. I go with Gen 6:4 - fallen angels corrupting the human race.
I've posted pictures of these beings. I believe they did rule over ancient civilizations and were worshipped as Gods. Their names all relate to heavenly stars or the heavenlies. Their memory and cruelty lives on. It was tempting to worship these gods.
In truth, they are nothing but fallen angels, but to mankind, they were "Gods."
Angels in heaven, I think that's what God means when he tells Israel not to worship them. As many of the peoples around them did, or the idols in their memory of them.
Sunesis, you have posted bits and pieces about fallen angels in the past. I seem to have a fuzzy memory of a thread where you went into greater detail. I wish I knew a good search term to resurrect that thread.
I believe there are other spirit beings, call them angels or whatever you will. I am not entirely sure about the "fallen angels" doctrine. Though it does seem pretty clear that something other than humans once bred with humans and created some sort of halfling - I wonder if this is where some of our fantasy writers get their ideas :) . I know many sects within Judaism believe in angels and the Chabads teach that a specific and particular angel comes to join you in your rest on Shabbat, but I am not sure how they come to that Biblically.
I am interested in this subject of angels, though I have not yet gotten to a place where I have researched it much yet. I have too many memories from childhood that were scary and I don't care to ressurect them, perhaps. But I would appreciate anything you care to share on the topic, as you have time and inclination.
Here is what Rashi says about Nephilim, which I actually think is quite interesting:
Bereidang - Chapter 6
Hide Rashi's Commentary
1. And it came to pass when man commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them.
2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.
the sons of the nobles Heb. בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, the sons of the princes (Targumim) and the judges (Gen. Rabbah 26:5). Another explanation: בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים are the princes who go as messengers of the Omnipresent. They too mingled with them (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22). Every אֱלֹהִים in Scripture is an expression of authority, and the following proves it (Exod. 4:16):“And you shall be to him as a lord (לֵאלֹהִים)” ; (ibid. 7:1):“See, I have made you a lord (אֶלֹהִים).”
when they were beautifying themselves Heb., טֹבֹת. Said Rabbi Judan: It is written טבת [i.e., instead of טובות. Thus it can be טָבַת, meaning to beautify.]When they would beautify her, adorned to enter the nuptial canopy, a noble would enter and have relations with her first (Gen. Rabbah 26:5).
from whomever they chose Even a married woman, even males and animals (Gen. Rabbah ad loc.).
3. And the Lord said, "Let My spirit not quarrel forever concerning man, because he is also flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."
Let My spirit not quarrel forever Let My spirit not complain and quarrel because of man.
forever for a long time. Behold My spirit is quarreling within Me whether to destroy or to have mercy. Let this quarrel in My spirit not endure forever, i.e., for a long time.
because he is also flesh Heb. בְּשַׁגָּם, like בָּשֶׁגַם i.e., because this is also in him that he is [only] flesh, and nevertheless, he does not subordinate himself before Me. What if he were fire or a hard substance? [i.e., How much greater would his insubordination be!] Similar to this, (Jud. 5:7):“Until I Deborah arose (שַׁקַמְתִּי)”, as if it were written שֶׁקַמְתִּי and similarly, (ibid. 6:17):“that You (שָׁאַתָּה) are speaking with me,” as if it were written שֶׁאַתָּה so too בְּשַׁגָּם is like בְּשֶׁגָּם
and his days shall be Until a hundred and twenty years I will delay My wrath towards them, but if they do not repent, I will bring a flood upon them. Now if you ask: from the time that Japheth was born until the Flood are only a hundred years, there is no [sequence of] earlier and later events in the Torah. This decree had already been issued twenty years before Noah begot children, and so we find in Seder Olam (ch. 28). There are many Aggadic midrashim on the words לֹא יָדוֹן, but this is its clear, simple explanation.
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.
The Nephilim [They were called נְפִילִים because they fell (נָפְלוּ) and caused the world to fall (הִפִּילוּ) (Gen. Rabbah 26:7), and in the Hebrew language it means giants (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer , ch.22). and Targum Jonathan.
in those days in the days of the generation of Enosh and the children of Cain.
and also afterward Although they had seen the destruction of the generation of Enosh, when the ocean rose up and inundated a third of the world, the generation of the Flood did not humble themselves to learn from them. — [from Mechilta Yithro, Massechta Bachodesh 6; Sifrei Ekev \'a743]
when…would come They [the mothers] would bear giants like them [the fathers]. — [from Gen. Rabbah 26:7]
mighty men to rebel against the Omnipresent. — [Yelammednu, Batei Midrashoth, p. 148]
the men of renown Heb. אַנְשֵׁי הַשֵׁם Those who were called by name: Irad, Mechuiael, Methushael, who were so named because of their destruction, for they were wiped out (מְחוּיָאֵל from נִמוֹחוּ) and uprooted (מְתוּשָׁאֵל from הוּתָּשׁוּ). Another explanation: men of desolation (שִׁמָמוֹן), who made the world desolate. — [from Gen. Rabbah 26:7]
5. And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time.
Here is what Rashi says about Nephilim, which I actually think is quite interesting:
This is very interesting....I know that myth certainly supports the idea of fallen angels coupling with humans and producing offspring. I have never really looked to deeply into it. Not because I was not interested but because I simply never found the time.
Sunesis your idea seems to have logical merit. Please if you have time tell us more. I wasn't around for any previous thread.
The Hebrew word translated as giants here is nephilim, a plural, which itself derives from the root word Naphal, which means to fall. The apocryphal Book of Enoch explains that a group of rebellious angels "left their first estate" (heaven, or the sky) and came down (fell) to Earth to marry human women and have children with them. Jude makes mention of these angels in the New Testament:
“ Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. ”
Due to the disastrous results of this forbidden intermingling, many have come to view the word "fallen" as denoting a fall from grace[citation needed], though it seems that the original meaning was simply to descend from the heavens.
Another theory suggests the sons of God were descendent's of Seth and the daughters of men were the daughters of of Cain. This latter version is somewhat easier to believe, in that it doesn't require a belief in supernatural spiritual beings beyond God. However, given the Torah and the NT both make many references to angels, the former seems to fit more in overall context. Also, because the Torah documents geneology so clearly in many many places, it would seem odd that if the references truly were to the children of Seth and Cain that the geanology wouldn't have been more clear in this set of verses.
CMan, what you said could also fit very well. It is my understading that various tribes, cities, cultures followed their own God, but fully believed in the existence of the God's of others as well. Even within the Old Testament and Judaism you can see that at various times the Israelites seemed to acknowledge the existence of other god's, even if they didn't worship those gods.
This is interesting too - apparently it is documented in the book of Enoch, which I have never read. The book of Enoch is referenced in the Torah, but quite obviously is not a part of the Torah.
The Grigori (from Greek egrḗgoroi, "The Watchers") are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim, who are described as giants in Genesis 6:4. The Grigori appear in the books of Enoch and Jubilees. In Hebrew they are known as the Irin, "Watchers," found mentioned in the Old Testament Book of Daniel
I guess later I'll have to go read Daniel. :)
In Enoch, the Watchers are angels apparently dispatched to Earth simply to watch over the humans . . .
I remember a few years ago the topic of Nephilim was brought up and I was vehemently against it. I thought it was ludicrous, it was obviously Seth's line. No way could angels produce offspring with humans.
A couple of years ago, I googled Nephilim. As you know, the internet is full of junk and crackpots, but there were enough wonderful articles, I got the jist of it. I also read the Book of Enoch, its history and how and who destroyed it is very interesting. It wasn't until the late 19th and early 20th century that two copies were found, hidden away by Egyptian coptic Christians. It seems the book of Enoch was widely known, is quoted throughout scripture, not elaborated upon, because it was probably assumed everyone knew what it said. He elaborates on who these fallen angels were in Gen. 6:4, he called them the Watchers. Interesting stuff. I'll find some links for you tomorrow. But Google Nephilim and read Enoch. Enoch is on the net. It just fills in missing pieces. I believe there is a reason God wants us to know now. It was not needful to be revealed earlier. But with mankind's knowledge of DNA, it now makes sense.
Also, a great book, is Patrick Heron's book (yes, he was 12th corps from Ireland), the Nephilim, the Pyramids and Apocolypse, something like that. It was a best seller on Amazon for awhile. I think its ten bucks, I ordered it from Amazon. He gives a great overview, has pics, etc. He really did his research, explaining their names, etc.
Why do I like this theory? Because it explains why:
1. God told Israel to wipe out certain tribes. Its not that God was a genocidal maniac.
2. It explains why Jesus told his disciples, when asking for signs of the coming end times, said: It shall be as it was in the days of Noah. I imagine these fallen angels were doing lots of DNA cross-species manipulation creating their offspring, even the animals weren't left alone. I think the "myths" of Greece and other civilizations of hybred animals, were based in truth. Now, mankind is doing some weird DNA manipulation and will eventually create cross-species - going against God's natural law. Thus, we are now in the "days of Noah."
3. Explains why there was a flood. All of mankind had been corrupted. Thus, the Savior could not redeem mankind, Satan would be victorious, the earth forevermore his. That's why when Gen. says Noah was "perfect" - I believe the Hebrew word means, genetically perfect. As a descendent of Adam - he was fully human, his genes had not been corrupted. As we know, and Satan knew, the Savior would come through Adam's line. So, destroy it.
4. Explains why, after all the corruption, Israel were not to worship these strange gods.
I also note, that all of the ancient Gods, from Maya, Babylon, Sumeria, all had the same names, and Appolyon (Apollo) their leader, all of whom are "chained" up until the last days, will rise again (Rev.), they will be released from their prison. I think mankind, will once again, worship these beings, as gods.
Tomrrow I'll find some links.
I know it sounds crazy, but it sure does answer some questions and tie some things together.
Paul said there are many gods... but we believe in one God, a direct reference to the shema and the first of the ten commandments.
1Cor 8:4-6
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Paul also, perhaps more obliquely, refers to it when he spoke of those whose "god is their belly" (their appetite).
Abi wrote: I think many of us have seen it is quite possible to become so legalistic about keeping the laws that they too can become idols, which is a lot of what Jesus preached against. I'm confident that Jesus would agree with that!
The elohim are indeed a populous group, and connected with spirits.... "mighty ones." That angle, at least for now, I must admit to being beyond me.
I remember a few years ago the topic of Nephilim was brought up and I was vehemently against it. I thought it was ludicrous, it was obviously Seth's line. No way could angels produce offspring with humans.
A couple of years ago, I googled Nephilim. As you know, the internet is full of junk and crackpots, but there were enough wonderful articles, I got the jist of it. I also read the Book of Enoch, its history and how and who destroyed it is very interesting. It wasn't until the late 19th and early 20th century that two copies were found, hidden away by Egyptian coptic Christians. It seems the book of Enoch was widely known, is quoted throughout scripture, not elaborated upon, because it was probably assumed everyone knew what it said. He elaborates on who these fallen angels were in Gen. 6:4, he called them the Watchers. Interesting stuff. I'll find some links for you tomorrow. But Google Nephilim and read Enoch. Enoch is on the net. It just fills in missing pieces. I believe there is a reason God wants us to know now. It was not needful to be revealed earlier. But with mankind's knowledge of DNA, it now makes sense.
Also, a great book, is Patrick Heron's book (yes, he was 12th corps from Ireland), the Nephilim, the Pyramids and Apocolypse, something like that. It was a best seller on Amazon for awhile. I think its ten bucks, I ordered it from Amazon. He gives a great overview, has pics, etc. He really did his research, explaining their names, etc.
Why do I like this theory? Because it explains why:
1. God told Israel to wipe out certain tribes. Its not that God was a genocidal maniac.
2. It explains why Jesus told his disciples, when asking for signs of the coming end times, said: It shall be as it was in the days of Noah. I imagine these fallen angels were doing lots of DNA cross-species manipulation creating their offspring, even the animals weren't left alone. I think the "myths" of Greece and other civilizations of hybred animals, were based in truth. Now, mankind is doing some weird DNA manipulation and will eventually create cross-species - going against God's natural law. Thus, we are now in the "days of Noah."
3. Explains why there was a flood. All of mankind had been corrupted. Thus, the Savior could not redeem mankind, Satan would be victorious, the earth forevermore his. That's why when Gen. says Noah was "perfect" - I believe the Hebrew word means, genetically perfect. As a descendent of Adam - he was fully human, his genes had not been corrupted. As we know, and Satan knew, the Savior would come through Adam's line. So, destroy it.
4. Explains why, after all the corruption, Israel were not to worship these strange gods.
I also note, that all of the ancient Gods, from Maya, Babylon, Sumeria, all had the same names, and Appolyon (Apollo) their leader, all of whom are "chained" up until the last days, will rise again (Rev.), they will be released from their prison. I think mankind, will once again, worship these beings, as gods.
Tomrrow I'll find some links.
I know it sounds crazy, but it sure does answer some questions and tie some things together.
Interesting post, I've also been interested in the subject of the Nephilim.
I've listened to some teachings by Chuck Missler on the Nephilim.
I ran across this quote in Appendix 25 (on Nephilim) of Bullinger's Bible:
"Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks."
Interesting post, I've also been interested in the subject of the Nephilim.
I've listened to some teachings by Chuck Missler on the Nephilim.
I ran across this quote in Appendix 25 (on Nephilim) of Bullinger's Bible:
"Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks."
I need to pick up a copy of Graves "Greek Mythology" at some point. When I read it a few years I was fascinated with how Graves matched up certain biblical characters and stories to the characters and stories of Greek Myths, e.g., equating Prometheus' fatty offering to Zeus to Abraham's offering of the stag in place of his son Isaac. The Titans which revolted against Zeus becoming imprisoned in chains in the underworld, = the imprisoned spirits in chains of the Catholic epistles.
Thanks C! It looks like a very interesting read. The following is from The Book of Jasher
And the wife of Lamech conceived and bare him a son at that time, at the revolution of the year.
And Methuselah called his name Noah, saying, The earth was in his days at rest and free from corruption, and Lamech his father called his name Menachem, saying, This one shall comfort us in our works and miserable toil in the earth, which God had cursed.
And the child grew up and was weaned, and he went in the ways of his father Methuselah, perfect and upright with God.
And all the sons of men departed from the ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and they continued sinning against the Lord.
And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.
And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.
Wikipedia says the following about teh Book of Jasher:
The Book of Jasher is the normal English name (used by e.g. the King James Bible) of a work known in the original Hebrew as Sefer haYashar, (ספר הישר; also transliterated Sēper haiYāšār). It is the best-known of several "Lost books of the Old Testament", books referenced in the Hebrew Bible of which no copies are known to exist. The original Hebrew translates as "Book of the Upright"; it is sometimes known in English as the "Book of Jashar".
I will definitely be reading the book of Enoch and will check out the other book as well.
Why do I like this theory? Because it explains why:
1. God told Israel to wipe out certain tribes. Its not that God was a genocidal maniac.
I am guessing this would imply that some of the Nephilim survived the flood? I did come across something that suggested one or more of them hid in the bottom of the ark - very interesting!
2. It explains why Jesus told his disciples, when asking for signs of the coming end times, said: It shall be as it was in the days of Noah. I imagine these fallen angels were doing lots of DNA cross-species manipulation creating their offspring, even the animals weren't left alone. I think the "myths" of Greece and other civilizations of hybred animals, were based in truth. Now, mankind is doing some weird DNA manipulation and will eventually create cross-species - going against God's natural law. Thus, we are now in the "days of Noah."
The cross-species manipulation fits in with what I quoted from the Book of Jasher above too. I hadn't made the connection with the Greek mythology, probably because I have not studied it much. But it did bring to my mind stories such as J.R.R. Tokien's. I love the stories with the trolls, ogres, gnomes, elves, etc. :)
3. Explains why there was a flood. All of mankind had been corrupted. Thus, the Savior could not redeem mankind, Satan would be victorious, the earth forevermore his. That's why when Gen. says Noah was "perfect" - I believe the Hebrew word means, genetically perfect. As a descendent of Adam - he was fully human, his genes had not been corrupted. As we know, and Satan knew, the Savior would come through Adam's line. So, destroy it.
If any of this is true, then I would suppose Satan was a Watcher? That would explain Job. Someday when time allows I may do some research on whether Satan and Lucifer are indeed one and the same, or perhaps two separate entities altogether.
4. Explains why, after all the corruption, Israel were not to worship these strange gods.
I also note, that all of the ancient Gods, from Maya, Babylon, Sumeria, all had the same names, and Appolyon (Apollo) their leader, all of whom are "chained" up until the last days, will rise again (Rev.), they will be released from their prison. I think mankind, will once again, worship these beings, as gods.
Tomrrow I'll find some links.
I know it sounds crazy, but it sure does answer some questions and tie some things together.
On some level it does sound crazy, but as you said, on another level, it does fill in some banks and tie things together.
2 cents more:
Paul said there are many gods... but we believe in one God, a direct reference to the shema and the first of the ten commandments.
1Cor 8:4-6
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Interesting, indeed, Dan. So do you think Paul is distinguishing between idols made by the hands of man and "god's, which would be spirit beings that man worshipps instead of the one true God?
Paul also, perhaps more obliquely, refers to it when he spoke of those whose "god is their belly" (their appetite).
Abi wrote: I think many of us have seen it is quite possible to become so legalistic about keeping the laws that they too can become idols, which is a lot of what Jesus preached against. I'm confident that Jesus would agree with that!
The elohim are indeed a populous group, and connected with spirits.... "mighty ones." That angle, at least for now, I must admit to being beyond me.
It is quite a bit beyond me as well, but I think I will learn a lot through this thread. :)
1It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
2And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.
(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).
3Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise;
4And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
5But they answered him and said; We all swear;
6And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
7Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, (4) which is the top of mount Armon.
(4) Upon Ardis. Or, "in the days of Jared" (R.H. Charles, ed. and trans., The Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1893], p. 63).
8That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, (5) and bound themselves by mutual execrations.
(5) Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse (Charles, p. 63).
9These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them. (6)
(6) The Aramaic texts preserve an earlier list of names of these Watchers: Semihazah; Artqoph; Ramtel; Kokabel; Ramel; Danieal; Zeqiel; Baraqel; Asael; Hermoni; Matarel; Ananel; Stawel; Samsiel; Sahriel; Tummiel; Turiel; Yomiel; Yhaddiel (Milik, p. 151).
10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (7)
(7) The Greek texts vary considerably from the Ethiopic text here. One Greek manuscript adds to this section, "And they [the women] bore to them [the Watchers] three races–first, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud. And they existed, increasing in power according to their greatness." See the account in the Book of Jubilees.
12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
13When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
14And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, (8) and to drink their blood.
(8) Their flesh one after another. Or, "one another’s flesh." R.H. Charles notes that this phrase may refer to the destruction of one class of giants by another (Charles, p. 65).
snip---> So do you think Paul is distinguishing between idols made by the hands of man and "god's, which would be spirit beings that man worshipps instead of the one true God?
Not at all. All I see is a contrast between many Gods, and one God. The idols the "world" (heathen/gentiles/nations) worshipped are many, but YHWH is one. As I said, that other stuff is yet beyond me.
The group with which I've been revisiting the Gospels at times jokes about how in a sense we've become a support group for recovering intellectuals (!) At one point we were reading and discussing something Jesus said, and although I'm often quite verbal there, as others shared varying viewpoints, I remained silent. This was one of those times where I felt quite "attached to the Vine," and at that moment, what was coming through the zylum or phloem (I'm not sure which, or even how to spell them!) was a sense of being present with the Lord himself. After the discussion wore down some, someone turned to me and asked my thoughts, and I replied, "It's beyond analysis!" The whole room erupted in laughter. I felt that everyone knew exactly what I was saying.
A favorite quote of mine comes from Isaac Newton. I can only paraphrase him from memory, and seem to have misplaced the book. Something like
I don't know what others think about me, but I feel rather like a child by the seashore, busily turning pebbles this way and that, and little shells, while the whole sea of truth lies before me, undiscovered.
actually, it's a pretty bad paraphrase, but the best I can do at the moment
I don't know what others think about me, but I feel rather like a child by the seashore, busily turning pebbles this way and that, and little shells, while the whole sea of truth lies before me, undiscovered.
actually, it's a pretty bad paraphrase, but the best I can do at the moment
This section from the book of Enoch reminds me of Merlin being trapped in the crystal cave:
10They elevated me aloft to heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame (20) surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.
(20) Vibrating flame. Literally, "a tongue of fire"
11Into this vibrating flame I entered;
12And drew nigh to a spacious habitation built also with stones of crystal. Its walls too, as well as pavement, were formed with stones of crystal, and crystal likewise was the ground. Its roof had the appearance of agitated stars and flashes of lightning; and among them were cherubim of fire in a stormy sky. (21) A flame burned around its walls; and its portal blazed with fire. When I entered into this dwelling, it was hot as fire and cold as ice. No trace of delight or of life was there. Terror overwhelmed me, and a fearful shaking seized me.
(21) In a stormy sky. Literally, "and their heaven was water" (Charles, p. 81).
snip---> The group with which I've been revisiting the Gospels at times jokes about how in a sense we've become a support group for recovering intellectuals (!) At one point we were reading and discussing something Jesus said, and although I'm often quite verbal there, as others shared varying viewpoints, I remained silent. This was one of those times where I felt quite "attached to the Vine," and at that moment, what was coming through the zylum or phloem (I'm not sure which, or even how to spell them!) was a sense of being present with the Lord himself. After the discussion wore down some, someone turned to me and asked my thoughts, and I replied, "It's beyond analysis!" The whole room erupted in laughter. I felt that everyone knew exactly what I was saying.
A favorite quote of mine comes from Isaac Newton. I can only paraphrase him from memory, and seem to have misplaced the book. Something like
I don't know what others think about me, but I feel rather like a child by the seashore, busily turning pebbles this way and that, and little shells, while the whole sea of truth lies before me, undiscovered.
actually, it's a pretty bad paraphrase, but the best I can do at the moment
"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
You got pretty close for a paraphrase. It communicates well! Great stuff.
I recently read Madeleine L'Engle's fiction book, "Many Waters". It communicates in fiction a vision of how the Nephilim operated in the time of Noah. If nothing else it was an entertaining read.
PS (Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I also recently read George MacDonald's "Lileth". She is a character from Jewish mythology who was said to be Adam's first wife, she appears in C.S. Lewis' the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. If you remember the Witch is said to be not a daughter of Eve but of Lileth. Not sure it relates here but it's an interesting read also.)
"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
PS (Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I also recently read George MacDonald's "Lileth". She is a character from Jewish mythology who was said to be Adam's first wife, she appears in C.S. Lewis' the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. If you remember the Witch is said to be not a daughter of Eve but of Lileth. Not sure it relates here but it's an interesting read also.)
Oh boy do I feel like I'm on the shore of a very big sea right now. But I'm willing to wade in.
Having not read either Enoch or Jasher yet I can only go on what ya'll have put into your posts...which is just enough to make my head spin..thank you very much!
So here's my .01 1/2 cents...cant quite dig up the full .02 at this point.
In all of man's various mythologies, Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic etc. They all have several things in common. They have a pyramid style organization. They have a great deal of infighting and cross breeding or incest. They have "half" god "half" man beings that are sometimes benevolent (Like Jesus) and sometimes evil (like the titans). All mythologies boast a large number of mixed creatures, like the Pegasus (winged horse) the Centaur (body of a horse melded with the torso and head of a man) there are way too many to mention. In the Celtic mythos there are a large number of half human or human hybrids, much more so than other mythologies. I'm not certain why this is, also in the Celtic their gods are much more benevolent than any other country except the native Americans (there are way to many paralels between these two).
I have always believed that all of these creatures did exist at one time. All myth begins with some amount of truth. But would these gods represent the good guys or the bad guys? Or perhaps both depending on the country? Or depending upon...?
Enoch:
10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
This verse alone would explaing God's big problem with sorcery. The witch of Endor comes to mind...as well as Merlin of English or more correctly Celtic lore.
10They elevated me aloft to heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame (20) surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.
(20) Vibrating flame. Literally, "a tongue of fire"
11Into this vibrating flame I entered;
12And drew nigh to a spacious habitation built also with stones of crystal. Its walls too, as well as pavement, were formed with stones of crystal, and crystal likewise was the ground. Its roof had the appearance of agitated stars and flashes of lightning; and among them were cherubim of fire in a stormy sky. (21) A flame burned around its walls; and its portal blazed with fire. When I entered into this dwelling, it was hot as fire and cold as ice. No trace of delight or of life was there. Terror overwhelmed me, and a fearful shaking seized me.
(21) In a stormy sky. Literally, "and their heaven was water" (Charles, p. 81).
Weren't we taught that the firmament held the left over water? That it was a hole in this firmament that caused the flood of Noah? So is this saying that this crystal palace exists in the firmament? And that it is seperated from heaven by a tongue of fire like the Garden is from the world? Is this Crystal palace the place that the Norse called Valhalla or the Greeks call Mt. Olympus? Hmmm...just thinking out loud.
It is interesting to me that the Norse gods were actually mortals that had to always eat these special apples so that they wouldn't age. But then they expected that most of them would die during their version of the apocolypse, ragnorok (sp).
The book of Enoch was used heavily by the Early Catholic Church fathers...so why was it discredited? What in the book scared them so badly that they felt the need to discredit it? Was it this information about the true nature of the fallen angels?
Wow I'm just full of questions. No answers right now...sorry.
Also, a great book, is Patrick Heron's book (yes, he was 12th corps from Ireland), the Nephilim, the Pyramids and Apocolypse, something like that. It was a best seller on Amazon for awhile. I think its ten bucks, I ordered it from Amazon. He gives a great overview, has pics, etc. He really did his research, explaining their names, etc.
Why do I like this theory? Because it explains why:
1. God told Israel to wipe out certain tribes. Its not that God was a genocidal maniac.
2. It explains why Jesus told his disciples, when asking for signs of the coming end times, said: It shall be as it was in the days of Noah. I imagine these fallen angels were doing lots of DNA cross-species manipulation creating their offspring, even the animals weren't left alone. I think the "myths" of Greece and other civilizations of hybred animals, were based in truth. Now, mankind is doing some weird DNA manipulation and will eventually create cross-species - going against God's natural law. Thus, we are now in the "days of Noah."
3. Explains why there was a flood. All of mankind had been corrupted. Thus, the Savior could not redeem mankind, Satan would be victorious, the earth forevermore his. That's why when Gen. says Noah was "perfect" - I believe the Hebrew word means, genetically perfect. As a descendent of Adam - he was fully human, his genes had not been corrupted. As we know, and Satan knew, the Savior would come through Adam's line. So, destroy it.
4. Explains why, after all the corruption, Israel were not to worship these strange gods.
I also note, that all of the ancient Gods, from Maya, Babylon, Sumeria, all had the same names, and Appolyon (Apollo) their leader, all of whom are "chained" up until the last days, will rise again (Rev.), they will be released from their prison. I think mankind, will once again, worship these beings, as gods.
Tomrrow I'll find some links.
I know it sounds crazy, but it sure does answer some questions and tie some things together.
Fascinating!
This info. is pertinent to my dissertation. (Explained in the doctrinal survey thread - sorry, I don't remember the exact name right now.)
The heart of my thesis is that the "dispensations" are chiasmically arranged, which means that the dispensations on one side of the central axis (Christ administration in my dispensational scheme) mirror the dispensations on the other side of it. (Observe the structure of the menorah for a visual example.) Thus the idea that there is a time/age/dispensation that mirrors Noah's makes perfect sense to me.
Where I disagree is that, "we are now in the 'days of Noah' ". The figure/pattern I use for my dispensational scheme is the sacred calendar of the Seven Feasts (Heb. moed, "appointed times"). Dispensational theology is about "redemptive history", thus I believe it begins with the need for "redemption", namely at Adam's sin. (So-called "progressive dispensationalists" are in agreement with this.)
My suggested scheme is juxtaposed beside the seven appointed times thus:
DISPENSATION FEAST/APPOINTED TIME
Adam's day (beginning with his sin) Passover (God clothed Adam w/skin)
Noah's day (beginning with flood) Unleavened Bread (leaven cleansed out)
Abraham's day (beginning with "seed" promise) Firstfruits (all families blessed)
Christ's day (beginning with birth ending w/Pentecost) Pentecost (fulfilled "seed" promises)
Church/Body day (beginning with Pentecost) Trumpets (mystery made known;
enemy's kingdom revealed by Church;
trumpet sounds & Body joins Head in
the air!)
"Tribulation" day Day of Atonement (earthly conflict
because "son of perdition" is fully
revealed, no holy spirit holding it
back)
Millennium Tabernacles (resurrection; Lord returns
"with His", puts all things in order;
2nd resurrection & unchaining Satan;
final judgment (sin & its source
permanently eradicated)
New heaven & earth "Eighth Day"
This is very sketchy, of course. But the point is that the "mirroring" effect of this chiasmic arrangement can be seen between the day of "tribulation" (coming in the next administration) and that which happened in Noah's day (the second administration, according to my scheme).
Thanks for the great post. I'll definitely be checking out the literature you've suggested!
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Eyesopen
Well as all things scriptural I immediately refer to what was taught in TWI and then send it through the ole logic sifter and see what falls out. The I add all that I know now on the subject and what I personally think about it. Then I end up with this....
In the OT it is indicated quite often that God directly tells Israel not to worship other gods. In many of those instances He is refering to a specific god. So that kind of leans away from the TWI stance that "anything" can be a god. I think that there is a fine line between making work your god and the god of the harvest. I think that a god requires certain criteria to be a god.
To be a god they must be worshipped, sacrificed to, a certain amount of belief is placed in them and they always have some sort of image (like a statue). All gods have rules of worship, dress, morality, and behavior. And all gods have a single point of worship even if it is many headed. So work still qualifies. Except does God ever address work as a god? Or any other similar thing?
But as we have discussed before just because a god had a different name than what we call ours today does not mean that they are not one in the same. Perhaps to worship an ideal or a set of moral values that are contrary to those of JWHW would be worshipping another god. Certainly the blatent example would be Satan who has a very different set of moral values. But others that are more subtle would be harder to detect.
In the book of Romans the fashioning of an image and then worshipping it is idolatry because it is an image of that which was created and not the Creator. Given that piece of information, if our God has an image then it is the wrong one.
Ok I gave it a stab...who's next?
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Sunesis
Hmm, strange gods. I go with Gen 6:4 - fallen angels corrupting the human race.
I've posted pictures of these beings. I believe they did rule over ancient civilizations and were worshipped as Gods. Their names all relate to heavenly stars or the heavenlies. Their memory and cruelty lives on. It was tempting to worship these gods.
In truth, they are nothing but fallen angels, but to mankind, they were "Gods."
Angels in heaven, I think that's what God means when he tells Israel not to worship them. As many of the peoples around them did, or the idols in their memory of them.
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Abigail
Sunesis, you have posted bits and pieces about fallen angels in the past. I seem to have a fuzzy memory of a thread where you went into greater detail. I wish I knew a good search term to resurrect that thread.
I believe there are other spirit beings, call them angels or whatever you will. I am not entirely sure about the "fallen angels" doctrine. Though it does seem pretty clear that something other than humans once bred with humans and created some sort of halfling - I wonder if this is where some of our fantasy writers get their ideas :) . I know many sects within Judaism believe in angels and the Chabads teach that a specific and particular angel comes to join you in your rest on Shabbat, but I am not sure how they come to that Biblically.
I am interested in this subject of angels, though I have not yet gotten to a place where I have researched it much yet. I have too many memories from childhood that were scary and I don't care to ressurect them, perhaps. But I would appreciate anything you care to share on the topic, as you have time and inclination.
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Abigail
Here is what Rashi says about Nephilim, which I actually think is quite interesting:
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Eyesopen
This is very interesting....I know that myth certainly supports the idea of fallen angels coupling with humans and producing offspring. I have never really looked to deeply into it. Not because I was not interested but because I simply never found the time.
Sunesis your idea seems to have logical merit. Please if you have time tell us more. I wasn't around for any previous thread.
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cman
Strange Gods would be Gods that are strange to the person imo.
In other words they don't know what their God is.
So there is an image made to represent that God in many cases.
Seems it says to find out about your God.
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Abigail
Well, I've reading Wikipedia and come across some interesting things.
From HERE
Another theory suggests the sons of God were descendent's of Seth and the daughters of men were the daughters of of Cain. This latter version is somewhat easier to believe, in that it doesn't require a belief in supernatural spiritual beings beyond God. However, given the Torah and the NT both make many references to angels, the former seems to fit more in overall context. Also, because the Torah documents geneology so clearly in many many places, it would seem odd that if the references truly were to the children of Seth and Cain that the geanology wouldn't have been more clear in this set of verses.
CMan, what you said could also fit very well. It is my understading that various tribes, cities, cultures followed their own God, but fully believed in the existence of the God's of others as well. Even within the Old Testament and Judaism you can see that at various times the Israelites seemed to acknowledge the existence of other god's, even if they didn't worship those gods.
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Abigail
This is interesting too - apparently it is documented in the book of Enoch, which I have never read. The book of Enoch is referenced in the Torah, but quite obviously is not a part of the Torah.
The entire article can be found HERE
I guess later I'll have to go read Daniel. :)Link to comment
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cman
here's another 'book' that may interest you Abigail
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&...+book+of+Jasher
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Sunesis
I remember a few years ago the topic of Nephilim was brought up and I was vehemently against it. I thought it was ludicrous, it was obviously Seth's line. No way could angels produce offspring with humans.
A couple of years ago, I googled Nephilim. As you know, the internet is full of junk and crackpots, but there were enough wonderful articles, I got the jist of it. I also read the Book of Enoch, its history and how and who destroyed it is very interesting. It wasn't until the late 19th and early 20th century that two copies were found, hidden away by Egyptian coptic Christians. It seems the book of Enoch was widely known, is quoted throughout scripture, not elaborated upon, because it was probably assumed everyone knew what it said. He elaborates on who these fallen angels were in Gen. 6:4, he called them the Watchers. Interesting stuff. I'll find some links for you tomorrow. But Google Nephilim and read Enoch. Enoch is on the net. It just fills in missing pieces. I believe there is a reason God wants us to know now. It was not needful to be revealed earlier. But with mankind's knowledge of DNA, it now makes sense.
Also, a great book, is Patrick Heron's book (yes, he was 12th corps from Ireland), the Nephilim, the Pyramids and Apocolypse, something like that. It was a best seller on Amazon for awhile. I think its ten bucks, I ordered it from Amazon. He gives a great overview, has pics, etc. He really did his research, explaining their names, etc.
Why do I like this theory? Because it explains why:
1. God told Israel to wipe out certain tribes. Its not that God was a genocidal maniac.
2. It explains why Jesus told his disciples, when asking for signs of the coming end times, said: It shall be as it was in the days of Noah. I imagine these fallen angels were doing lots of DNA cross-species manipulation creating their offspring, even the animals weren't left alone. I think the "myths" of Greece and other civilizations of hybred animals, were based in truth. Now, mankind is doing some weird DNA manipulation and will eventually create cross-species - going against God's natural law. Thus, we are now in the "days of Noah."
3. Explains why there was a flood. All of mankind had been corrupted. Thus, the Savior could not redeem mankind, Satan would be victorious, the earth forevermore his. That's why when Gen. says Noah was "perfect" - I believe the Hebrew word means, genetically perfect. As a descendent of Adam - he was fully human, his genes had not been corrupted. As we know, and Satan knew, the Savior would come through Adam's line. So, destroy it.
4. Explains why, after all the corruption, Israel were not to worship these strange gods.
I also note, that all of the ancient Gods, from Maya, Babylon, Sumeria, all had the same names, and Appolyon (Apollo) their leader, all of whom are "chained" up until the last days, will rise again (Rev.), they will be released from their prison. I think mankind, will once again, worship these beings, as gods.
Tomrrow I'll find some links.
I know it sounds crazy, but it sure does answer some questions and tie some things together.
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anotherDan
2 cents more:
Paul said there are many gods... but we believe in one God, a direct reference to the shema and the first of the ten commandments.
1Cor 8:4-6
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Paul also, perhaps more obliquely, refers to it when he spoke of those whose "god is their belly" (their appetite).
Abi wrote: I think many of us have seen it is quite possible to become so legalistic about keeping the laws that they too can become idols, which is a lot of what Jesus preached against. I'm confident that Jesus would agree with that!
The elohim are indeed a populous group, and connected with spirits.... "mighty ones." That angle, at least for now, I must admit to being beyond me.
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wrdsandwrks
Interesting post, I've also been interested in the subject of the Nephilim.
I've listened to some teachings by Chuck Missler on the Nephilim.
I ran across this quote in Appendix 25 (on Nephilim) of Bullinger's Bible:
"Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks."
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TheInvisibleDan
I need to pick up a copy of Graves "Greek Mythology" at some point. When I read it a few years I was fascinated with how Graves matched up certain biblical characters and stories to the characters and stories of Greek Myths, e.g., equating Prometheus' fatty offering to Zeus to Abraham's offering of the stag in place of his son Isaac. The Titans which revolted against Zeus becoming imprisoned in chains in the underworld, = the imprisoned spirits in chains of the Catholic epistles.
Danny
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Abigail
Thanks C! It looks like a very interesting read. The following is from The Book of Jasher
Wikipedia says the following about teh Book of Jasher:Link to comment
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Abigail
Sunesis,
I will definitely be reading the book of Enoch and will check out the other book as well.
On some level it does sound crazy, but as you said, on another level, it does fill in some banks and tie things together.
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Abigail
From the book of Enoch:
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anotherDan
snip---> So do you think Paul is distinguishing between idols made by the hands of man and "god's, which would be spirit beings that man worshipps instead of the one true God?
Not at all. All I see is a contrast between many Gods, and one God. The idols the "world" (heathen/gentiles/nations) worshipped are many, but YHWH is one. As I said, that other stuff is yet beyond me.
The group with which I've been revisiting the Gospels at times jokes about how in a sense we've become a support group for recovering intellectuals (!) At one point we were reading and discussing something Jesus said, and although I'm often quite verbal there, as others shared varying viewpoints, I remained silent. This was one of those times where I felt quite "attached to the Vine," and at that moment, what was coming through the zylum or phloem (I'm not sure which, or even how to spell them!) was a sense of being present with the Lord himself. After the discussion wore down some, someone turned to me and asked my thoughts, and I replied, "It's beyond analysis!" The whole room erupted in laughter. I felt that everyone knew exactly what I was saying.
A favorite quote of mine comes from Isaac Newton. I can only paraphrase him from memory, and seem to have misplaced the book. Something like
I don't know what others think about me, but I feel rather like a child by the seashore, busily turning pebbles this way and that, and little shells, while the whole sea of truth lies before me, undiscovered.
actually, it's a pretty bad paraphrase, but the best I can do at the moment
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Abigail
That communicated perfectly. :)
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Abigail
This section from the book of Enoch reminds me of Merlin being trapped in the crystal cave:
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wrdsandwrks
"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
You got pretty close for a paraphrase. It communicates well! Great stuff.
I recently read Madeleine L'Engle's fiction book, "Many Waters". It communicates in fiction a vision of how the Nephilim operated in the time of Noah. If nothing else it was an entertaining read.
PS (Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I also recently read George MacDonald's "Lileth". She is a character from Jewish mythology who was said to be Adam's first wife, she appears in C.S. Lewis' the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. If you remember the Witch is said to be not a daughter of Eve but of Lileth. Not sure it relates here but it's an interesting read also.)
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Eyesopen
Oh boy do I feel like I'm on the shore of a very big sea right now. But I'm willing to wade in.
Having not read either Enoch or Jasher yet I can only go on what ya'll have put into your posts...which is just enough to make my head spin..thank you very much!
So here's my .01 1/2 cents...cant quite dig up the full .02 at this point.
In all of man's various mythologies, Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic etc. They all have several things in common. They have a pyramid style organization. They have a great deal of infighting and cross breeding or incest. They have "half" god "half" man beings that are sometimes benevolent (Like Jesus) and sometimes evil (like the titans). All mythologies boast a large number of mixed creatures, like the Pegasus (winged horse) the Centaur (body of a horse melded with the torso and head of a man) there are way too many to mention. In the Celtic mythos there are a large number of half human or human hybrids, much more so than other mythologies. I'm not certain why this is, also in the Celtic their gods are much more benevolent than any other country except the native Americans (there are way to many paralels between these two).
I have always believed that all of these creatures did exist at one time. All myth begins with some amount of truth. But would these gods represent the good guys or the bad guys? Or perhaps both depending on the country? Or depending upon...?
Enoch:
10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
This verse alone would explaing God's big problem with sorcery. The witch of Endor comes to mind...as well as Merlin of English or more correctly Celtic lore.
10They elevated me aloft to heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame (20) surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror.
(20) Vibrating flame. Literally, "a tongue of fire"
11Into this vibrating flame I entered;
12And drew nigh to a spacious habitation built also with stones of crystal. Its walls too, as well as pavement, were formed with stones of crystal, and crystal likewise was the ground. Its roof had the appearance of agitated stars and flashes of lightning; and among them were cherubim of fire in a stormy sky. (21) A flame burned around its walls; and its portal blazed with fire. When I entered into this dwelling, it was hot as fire and cold as ice. No trace of delight or of life was there. Terror overwhelmed me, and a fearful shaking seized me.
(21) In a stormy sky. Literally, "and their heaven was water" (Charles, p. 81).
Weren't we taught that the firmament held the left over water? That it was a hole in this firmament that caused the flood of Noah? So is this saying that this crystal palace exists in the firmament? And that it is seperated from heaven by a tongue of fire like the Garden is from the world? Is this Crystal palace the place that the Norse called Valhalla or the Greeks call Mt. Olympus? Hmmm...just thinking out loud.
It is interesting to me that the Norse gods were actually mortals that had to always eat these special apples so that they wouldn't age. But then they expected that most of them would die during their version of the apocolypse, ragnorok (sp).
The book of Enoch was used heavily by the Early Catholic Church fathers...so why was it discredited? What in the book scared them so badly that they felt the need to discredit it? Was it this information about the true nature of the fallen angels?
Wow I'm just full of questions. No answers right now...sorry.
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anotherDan
Cross breading... is that where you dip the fish in the egg, then the flour, then the egg, and then the cracker crumbs?
:P
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Eyesopen
Why yes it is...and I like to apply that to Catfish, YUM!
Wait a minute....this isn't the Kitchen! OOOooops...sorry! 
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LindaR
Fascinating!
This info. is pertinent to my dissertation. (Explained in the doctrinal survey thread - sorry, I don't remember the exact name right now.)
The heart of my thesis is that the "dispensations" are chiasmically arranged, which means that the dispensations on one side of the central axis (Christ administration in my dispensational scheme) mirror the dispensations on the other side of it. (Observe the structure of the menorah for a visual example.) Thus the idea that there is a time/age/dispensation that mirrors Noah's makes perfect sense to me.
Where I disagree is that, "we are now in the 'days of Noah' ". The figure/pattern I use for my dispensational scheme is the sacred calendar of the Seven Feasts (Heb. moed, "appointed times"). Dispensational theology is about "redemptive history", thus I believe it begins with the need for "redemption", namely at Adam's sin. (So-called "progressive dispensationalists" are in agreement with this.)
My suggested scheme is juxtaposed beside the seven appointed times thus:
DISPENSATION FEAST/APPOINTED TIME
Adam's day (beginning with his sin) Passover (God clothed Adam w/skin)
Noah's day (beginning with flood) Unleavened Bread (leaven cleansed out)
Abraham's day (beginning with "seed" promise) Firstfruits (all families blessed)
Christ's day (beginning with birth ending w/Pentecost) Pentecost (fulfilled "seed" promises)
Church/Body day (beginning with Pentecost) Trumpets (mystery made known;
enemy's kingdom revealed by Church;
trumpet sounds & Body joins Head in
the air!)
"Tribulation" day Day of Atonement (earthly conflict
because "son of perdition" is fully
revealed, no holy spirit holding it
back)
Millennium Tabernacles (resurrection; Lord returns
"with His", puts all things in order;
2nd resurrection & unchaining Satan;
final judgment (sin & its source
permanently eradicated)
New heaven & earth "Eighth Day"
This is very sketchy, of course. But the point is that the "mirroring" effect of this chiasmic arrangement can be seen between the day of "tribulation" (coming in the next administration) and that which happened in Noah's day (the second administration, according to my scheme).
Thanks for the great post. I'll definitely be checking out the literature you've suggested!
Blessings,
LR
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