Accuracy, at least in the context that I've come to know it, has no relevance to religion. A thing is accurate only to the degree that it's accuracy is specified. And the accuracy can be checked and verified to higher standards which are ultimately checked against primary standards that are either based on physical principles or agreed upon specifications. I can't for the world of me see how this could apply to the Bible, the Koran, or any other holy book.
As to the paycheck example, it's kinda non-sequitur. Your wages, taxes and deductions are all rounded off to the nearest cent. *That* is the limit of accuracy and we all accept it. Nobody objects to loosing 1/3 of a cent, yet your paycheck is *not* accurate.
And as for the distance between the earth and the sun, who knows what would have happened if the earth was closer or further? What kind of life would have evolved? If you maintain that it *could* have been closer or further, you're either meddling in the affairs of the God that created both *or* you're denying the possiblity that a different life and environment might have evolved that would have compensated for the distance.
Of course-who God is-is a more important issue but I've noticed that even on lesser issues, people will leave churches, abandon friendships and spend much time in argumentation trying to convince others they are wrong. Why?
A study group we joined had some ex-Catholics in it. My wife and I were raised Catholic. I found quickly that Catholics aren't viewed too favorably within this group of people. To their credit, there's care given to balancing judgment against understanding, but when you get to some things the opinions are clear. While we don't disagree on some of them I found it kind of odd that the disagreement was, as you say, cause to prevent a couple of these folks having much of a close relationship with the relatives that are Catholic because of what they believe.
Now, it sounded like in that case it was the RC's avidly promoting their beliefs on the non-RC's, because the non-RC's have strong Christian beliefs that aren't Catholic. I think it revolved around recognizing Mary as a Mediatrix between humanity and God or something. But it seemed like it could go both ways and probably did at times.
When we mentioned we'd been raised Catholic, I guess it was assumed we'd jump on the bandwagon, which we were slow to do. While we don't subscribe to much of the RC doctrine today, we do recognize that our first exposure to Christ was through the RC church. I'll discuss the pro's and cons and disagreements I have, no prob, but I'm not quite ready to sack the whole gang south. So when we were told "but you didn't get born again in the RC church" and we said "oh yes, we did, we accepted Christ" they looked at us like we'd grown a third eye in our foreheads. Never mind that I'm sure their RC relatives wouldn't see us anymore favorably than them, so we're kind of on the outs with both sides if taken to task on points, I'm sure.
I think the others who only knew what they'd heard about RC doctrine weren't sure, but the other former RC's didn't seem to buy that we'd been able to be "saved" as Catholics. Knowing how different it can be for different people I didn't bother pursuing it other than to state belief in Christ as savior is the basis for being a Christian. There was some discussion about Christ having to be a "total savior" but they didn't really know what they were talking about to put it kindly so I didn't mess with them, figuring there'd be more time over the year and there has been.
What's strange though - while they could be absolutely sure, no question about it - that RC's are hell bound, there's a whole range of other things they do feel they know for sure that they can't clearly articulate or explain, but they know they're right about.
So some things are "just wrong" and others "just right", even if they're not clear on why. But their reasons are biblical, of course.
They're very nice people and I'm sure if they were on a desert island stranded and a boat of Rosary-bearing Catholics showed up in a boat, they'd hop right in. That's the beauty of it. We talk and we talk and we talk. And then we live, and it all comes out in the wash. Or you learn to love coconuts.
Why do we turn into such hard cases? Dunno. I guess when we feel something's right and there's a lot riding on it that turns into caring about the welfare of others...? Or we're just jerks and have to be right. There's that side of it too.
How did those poor Christians ever make it before there were concordances and other study materials? Those poor people did not have the "accuracy" of the Word. I guess they had to depend on the Holy Spirit to teach them.
Accuracy - isn't that what Christ slammed the Pharisees for? swallowing camels and straining at gnats?
How quickly "accuracy" becomes legalism and bondage.
Knowledge of Christ is No. 1, all the accuracy in the world can't fill that void.
Exactly!...The early Christians didn't have the new testament and they had to rely on their personal experiences with God and how the spirit worked within them. Imagine that!...The Christian message is simple and requires faith...being a Christian is not an academic endeavor. It's an experiential endeavor where we walk in love and apply our faith to life's situations...trusting in the Lord...not our concordance.
People get bent out of shape trying to "put together" bible verses and study what they deem to be the "right stuff"...I guess that means that illiterate people can't know God?...Twi led everyone into bible worship and studying the owner's manuel instead of driving the car...The spirit leads us into all truth...not a bible class, a denomination, a guru or an academic approach to knowing God...
God knows who He is. Jesus knows who he is. I'm still trying to figure out who the heck I am - so why would I start to try to figure out who they are?
I know that God is God and Jesus Christ His son is Lord.
So...
I spend my days living life, praying, and loving folks. I found that all my word studies and concordances didn't help me keep the commandment to love God and my neighbor as myself.
I think TWI in its current state today is Exhibit A.
Look where their emphasis on accuracy - biblical research - has led them. Some aging buildings in a cornfield.
Last one out, please turn off the lights.
TWI's idol was the Bible.
I've grown to see it over the years since I've been out, as a book of prophecy. It points to Christ in the OT, he comes, Christ in the NT - he is the revealer, the apocalypsis - he reveals himself to us. He reveals and rules at the end. All of the OT prophecies are fullfilled in Revelation. I guess my point is, its all about him.
A teacher of the Word, his whole purpose, is to lead one to Christ - a relationship with him.
We were not led to Christ. We were led to knowledge, accuracy, always wanting to hear some new thing, some new teaching.
Knowledge was the thing. Retemories, how many verses you could memorize, how many word studies, and on and on.
The name of Jesus? That was the mantra said at the end of a prayer.
He was absent - up in the sky somewhere, coming back - someday, but not really here now.
Yet, he tells us he walks among the churches in Rev.
He is here - now - always has been.
Our emphasis was on God - not his son. On God and his Word.
I almost feel Christ was God's heart, sent to us, to mankind, a gift, an offer of eternal life.
God's heart - we never knew it.
But what did that little detail matter, as long as we had the accuracy of the Word?
Sunesis....I absolutely agree with every single thing that you wrote. What you said , has bothered me through the years. I think that may be the missing ingredient in our twi formula that let evil slip in and hurt so many of us.
That being said....So how do we get to know Jesus?
He has always been some guy hanging out with God....not someone that was part of my life or thoughts as anything other than a teacher in the scriptures.
In regards to TWI and other some other groups, I'm thinking that biblical accuracy is a fallacy.
Biblical "accuracy" in TWI was derrived only by applying VPW's keys to the scriptures.
You could only get accuracy and therefore the true word of God, when you followed VPW's formulas.
So logically, to get the true and "accurate" Word, the formulas themselves would have to be infallible and then they would have to be inerrantly applied. (But it seems that VPW or the current MOG/ WOG could actually do that.)
Looking deeper, VPW's formulas depend upon many presumptions. Some were simply declared by fiat - like first usage .
It was presumed that Bullingers' work on figures was basically inerrant. Is it? Who decides if something is literal or figurative? Heres what was done many times. If the scripture didn't "fit" with a preconceived idea, it was declared either figurative or literal to force it to fit. Voila ! Accuracy!
It was presumed that the canon of scruipture was infallible, that all the books in the modern (Protestant) Bible are indeed God breathed. This presumes that men at the Council of Carthage some 4 centuries after Jesus - made a perfect decision as to which books/letters got the nod and and which ones got the axe. This is seldom questioned or looked at objectively - just mosty blindly accepted.
TWI's and some other groups versions of accuracy also depend upon the idea that God dictated each and every book or letter in the Bible word for word, or even iota for iota. Yet there little to no evidence that any NT writings came in that manner. Did general church correspondence such as letters from Paul or Peter to specific churches rightly get declared the inerrant God breathed Word of God some 500 years later?
There's a lot more to consider but for the sake of brevity ....
If the presumptions are not correct then formulas are not perfect and whole idea of "accuracy" is built upon shifting sand. Mathematical exactness? Hardly. Love is not mathematical .
I think TWI in its current state today is Exhibit A.
Look where their emphasis on accuracy - biblical research - has led them. Some aging buildings in a cornfield.
Last one out, please turn off the lights.
TWI's idol was the Bible.
I've grown to see it over the years since I've been out, as a book of prophecy. It points to Christ in the OT, he comes, Christ in the NT - he is the revealer, the apocalypsis - he reveals himself to us. He reveals and rules at the end. All of the OT prophecies are fullfilled in Revelation. I guess my point is, its all about him.
A teacher of the Word, his whole purpose, is to lead one to Christ - a relationship with him.
We were not led to Christ. We were led to knowledge, accuracy, always wanting to hear some new thing, some new teaching.
Yeah.......ever-learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Crumbs and morsels of truth....yes.
Little slices, here and there.......yes.
But side-stepping....... Jesus Christ....THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life we were led to pursue after "the more abundant life" [prosperity and health and knowledge]. That hardly qualifies as "accurate" knowledge.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Imagine
God loves you my dear friend
you asked "What do you think about Biblical Accurracy?, The Importance of Being Right"
I no longer worry about having biblical accurracy I just hope I am am at least part right
if we only prophey in part than I can never be 100% right but to be part right would be great
I more worried about sharing the little I think I know with love without pushing or controlling others
love is the key to me
sorry is someone this way before me because I did not read all the replies
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Jim
Accuracy, at least in the context that I've come to know it, has no relevance to religion. A thing is accurate only to the degree that it's accuracy is specified. And the accuracy can be checked and verified to higher standards which are ultimately checked against primary standards that are either based on physical principles or agreed upon specifications. I can't for the world of me see how this could apply to the Bible, the Koran, or any other holy book.
As to the paycheck example, it's kinda non-sequitur. Your wages, taxes and deductions are all rounded off to the nearest cent. *That* is the limit of accuracy and we all accept it. Nobody objects to loosing 1/3 of a cent, yet your paycheck is *not* accurate.
And as for the distance between the earth and the sun, who knows what would have happened if the earth was closer or further? What kind of life would have evolved? If you maintain that it *could* have been closer or further, you're either meddling in the affairs of the God that created both *or* you're denying the possiblity that a different life and environment might have evolved that would have compensated for the distance.
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socks
A study group we joined had some ex-Catholics in it. My wife and I were raised Catholic. I found quickly that Catholics aren't viewed too favorably within this group of people. To their credit, there's care given to balancing judgment against understanding, but when you get to some things the opinions are clear. While we don't disagree on some of them I found it kind of odd that the disagreement was, as you say, cause to prevent a couple of these folks having much of a close relationship with the relatives that are Catholic because of what they believe.
Now, it sounded like in that case it was the RC's avidly promoting their beliefs on the non-RC's, because the non-RC's have strong Christian beliefs that aren't Catholic. I think it revolved around recognizing Mary as a Mediatrix between humanity and God or something. But it seemed like it could go both ways and probably did at times.
When we mentioned we'd been raised Catholic, I guess it was assumed we'd jump on the bandwagon, which we were slow to do. While we don't subscribe to much of the RC doctrine today, we do recognize that our first exposure to Christ was through the RC church. I'll discuss the pro's and cons and disagreements I have, no prob, but I'm not quite ready to sack the whole gang south. So when we were told "but you didn't get born again in the RC church" and we said "oh yes, we did, we accepted Christ" they looked at us like we'd grown a third eye in our foreheads. Never mind that I'm sure their RC relatives wouldn't see us anymore favorably than them, so we're kind of on the outs with both sides if taken to task on points, I'm sure.
I think the others who only knew what they'd heard about RC doctrine weren't sure, but the other former RC's didn't seem to buy that we'd been able to be "saved" as Catholics. Knowing how different it can be for different people I didn't bother pursuing it other than to state belief in Christ as savior is the basis for being a Christian. There was some discussion about Christ having to be a "total savior" but they didn't really know what they were talking about to put it kindly so I didn't mess with them, figuring there'd be more time over the year and there has been.
What's strange though - while they could be absolutely sure, no question about it - that RC's are hell bound, there's a whole range of other things they do feel they know for sure that they can't clearly articulate or explain, but they know they're right about.
So some things are "just wrong" and others "just right", even if they're not clear on why. But their reasons are biblical, of course.
They're very nice people and I'm sure if they were on a desert island stranded and a boat of Rosary-bearing Catholics showed up in a boat, they'd hop right in. That's the beauty of it. We talk and we talk and we talk. And then we live, and it all comes out in the wash. Or you learn to love coconuts.
Why do we turn into such hard cases? Dunno. I guess when we feel something's right and there's a lot riding on it that turns into caring about the welfare of others...? Or we're just jerks and have to be right. There's that side of it too.
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Twinky
Sunesis, Ex10 - exactly!
Some organizations are very hot on the "accuracy of the Word" without being even the slightest bit accurate about the heart behind the words.
Words paint the picture but if the canvas of the heart is not there, there's only a blobby mess on the floor.
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WordWolf
I've come to the conclusion that knowledge is really good, but is not the MAIN thing.
(Yes, that's coming from me, so that should tell you something.)
To quote a comic-book character,
"I've found it's more important to be One-Who-Cares rather than One-Who-Knows."
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GrouchoMarxJr
Exactly!...The early Christians didn't have the new testament and they had to rely on their personal experiences with God and how the spirit worked within them. Imagine that!...The Christian message is simple and requires faith...being a Christian is not an academic endeavor. It's an experiential endeavor where we walk in love and apply our faith to life's situations...trusting in the Lord...not our concordance.
People get bent out of shape trying to "put together" bible verses and study what they deem to be the "right stuff"...I guess that means that illiterate people can't know God?...Twi led everyone into bible worship and studying the owner's manuel instead of driving the car...The spirit leads us into all truth...not a bible class, a denomination, a guru or an academic approach to knowing God...
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doojable
God knows who He is. Jesus knows who he is. I'm still trying to figure out who the heck I am - so why would I start to try to figure out who they are?
I know that God is God and Jesus Christ His son is Lord.
So...
I spend my days living life, praying, and loving folks. I found that all my word studies and concordances didn't help me keep the commandment to love God and my neighbor as myself.
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Sunesis
I think TWI in its current state today is Exhibit A.
Look where their emphasis on accuracy - biblical research - has led them. Some aging buildings in a cornfield.
Last one out, please turn off the lights.
TWI's idol was the Bible.
I've grown to see it over the years since I've been out, as a book of prophecy. It points to Christ in the OT, he comes, Christ in the NT - he is the revealer, the apocalypsis - he reveals himself to us. He reveals and rules at the end. All of the OT prophecies are fullfilled in Revelation. I guess my point is, its all about him.
A teacher of the Word, his whole purpose, is to lead one to Christ - a relationship with him.
We were not led to Christ. We were led to knowledge, accuracy, always wanting to hear some new thing, some new teaching.
Knowledge was the thing. Retemories, how many verses you could memorize, how many word studies, and on and on.
The name of Jesus? That was the mantra said at the end of a prayer.
He was absent - up in the sky somewhere, coming back - someday, but not really here now.
Yet, he tells us he walks among the churches in Rev.
He is here - now - always has been.
Our emphasis was on God - not his son. On God and his Word.
I almost feel Christ was God's heart, sent to us, to mankind, a gift, an offer of eternal life.
God's heart - we never knew it.
But what did that little detail matter, as long as we had the accuracy of the Word?
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rascal
Sunesis....I absolutely agree with every single thing that you wrote. What you said , has bothered me through the years. I think that may be the missing ingredient in our twi formula that let evil slip in and hurt so many of us.
That being said....So how do we get to know Jesus?
He has always been some guy hanging out with God....not someone that was part of my life or thoughts as anything other than a teacher in the scriptures.
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Goey
Bibical Accuracy?
Hmm .......
In regards to TWI and other some other groups, I'm thinking that biblical accuracy is a fallacy.
Biblical "accuracy" in TWI was derrived only by applying VPW's keys to the scriptures.
You could only get accuracy and therefore the true word of God, when you followed VPW's formulas.
So logically, to get the true and "accurate" Word, the formulas themselves would have to be infallible and then they would have to be inerrantly applied. (But it seems that VPW or the current MOG/ WOG could actually do that.)
Looking deeper, VPW's formulas depend upon many presumptions. Some were simply declared by fiat - like first usage .
It was presumed that Bullingers' work on figures was basically inerrant. Is it? Who decides if something is literal or figurative? Heres what was done many times. If the scripture didn't "fit" with a preconceived idea, it was declared either figurative or literal to force it to fit. Voila ! Accuracy!
It was presumed that the canon of scruipture was infallible, that all the books in the modern (Protestant) Bible are indeed God breathed. This presumes that men at the Council of Carthage some 4 centuries after Jesus - made a perfect decision as to which books/letters got the nod and and which ones got the axe. This is seldom questioned or looked at objectively - just mosty blindly accepted.
TWI's and some other groups versions of accuracy also depend upon the idea that God dictated each and every book or letter in the Bible word for word, or even iota for iota. Yet there little to no evidence that any NT writings came in that manner. Did general church correspondence such as letters from Paul or Peter to specific churches rightly get declared the inerrant God breathed Word of God some 500 years later?
There's a lot more to consider but for the sake of brevity ....
If the presumptions are not correct then formulas are not perfect and whole idea of "accuracy" is built upon shifting sand. Mathematical exactness? Hardly. Love is not mathematical .
IMO you need heart more than "accuracy" anyway.
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Dot Matrix
Goey
My gosh I have missed you!!!!
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WordWolf
Goey!
I hope you're sticking around for some coffee and pie....
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Ham
just a point of "accuracy" here..
:)
I think camels were an unclean animal, as far as their diet was concerned..
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WordWolf
*checks*
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm
Both gnats and camels seem to have been "treif" or non-kosher.
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Imagine
Who would be in favor of inaccuracy?
Who wants to believe a lie?
Who wants to be deceived?
It is not wrong to be right.
I love studying the details of scripture and learning as much as I can.
When I wrote I thought accuracy was over-rated.
When you are rating things of importance.
Knowledge puffeth up and Charity edifieth.
"Nah Nah Nah Nah I know more than you do" is an attitude that we all have to guard ourselves against.
What can I say or do that will be something that builds up another not myself?
Still learning after all these years,
Imagine that!
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Tom Strange
Do we REALLY KNOW that that is a true statement? REALLY? I think it's just speculation...
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ex10
Cool post, Sunesis.
Because Jesus was "absent," and the gospels were part of the OT and "for our learning," according to VP, he was removed as our example of how to live.
Pretty clever deception, really. When you get rid of Jesus and his example, then character becomes less of an issue.
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skyrider
Yeah.......ever-learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Crumbs and morsels of truth....yes.
Little slices, here and there.......yes.
But side-stepping....... Jesus Christ....THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life we were led to pursue after "the more abundant life" [prosperity and health and knowledge]. That hardly qualifies as "accurate" knowledge.
<_<
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