I am guilty of this only with my own children, and mostly it was because i thought it was my duty to train them in the way they should go.
but for the most part my sermons didnt work , my example did.
i think people get stuck and it is about power and control over another.
not always but arrogance is involved. some may want another to feel or know the "blessing" of what they know as truth. i think that is rare.
mostly it is because we want to belong, to a certain group, to a certain manner of thinking . IN my life i do not witness with words alot i have "stuff in my house that clearly says i love jesus Christ as lord. I live in a manner that suggests i have values , But what other people do is of little matter to me.
if they ask i will tell what I think. but i refuse to debate if they have a need to be right I let that happen. no skin off my teeth.
down the road i often find i might learn soemthing from them .
Oh, really. So if I'm your boss and I under pay you by 75% who cares because accuracy is overrated?
The sun is 93 million miles from earth. If it was 88 million we'd burn up; if it was 98 million we'd be frozen. I think accuracy is important if it's life sustaining. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. The word of God is life sustaining.
We were told to yield on insignificant matters. This was a literal translation of Philippians 4:5. There's nothing life sustaining about sports statistics or other trivia. Sometimes believers erred by over spiritualizing stuff. It got to an extreme in the 90s: renting instead of owning, mandatory twig attendance 3 times a week, making a schedule accounting for every 15 minute segment of every day...that kind of "accuracy" is worthy of the toilet.
In some things, accuracy is useless. Sure it makes a difference how far the earth is from the sun, but what difference does it amke whether you or I know what the correct number is, and I doubt there is anyone here (unless Zixar is lurking) that knows it down to the last digit. Same with the salary, sure it's important that I get paid the right amount, but does it matter to you.
Part of the issue with determining biblical accuracy is that no one seems to be able to do it! Oh yeah, many claim to be able to, but can anyone really do it? So if there are always ghoing to be grey areas, why argue and fight over it? is it vital to know whether there were 2 or 4 people crucified with Jesus? How does that affect anything?
I find it pretty ironic that TWI was so into "accuracy," when so many "leaders" couldn't even figure out that adultery is sin, according to the Bible. Duh.
What? Live in a world that is not with a Mathematical exactness and a scientific precision?
I love Johniams arguement. I have 6 employees working for me and I would love to only pay them 75%. If I err in their favor I never hear anout it but if I am off even a nickel in my favor.. get the picture
Oh, really. So if I'm your boss and I under pay you by 75% who cares because accuracy is overrated?
The sun is 93 million miles from earth. If it was 88 million we'd burn up; if it was 98 million we'd be frozen. I think accuracy is important if it's life sustaining. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. The word of God is life sustaining.
We were told to yield on insignificant matters. This was a literal translation of Philippians 4:5. There's nothing life sustaining about sports statistics or other trivia. Sometimes believers erred by over spiritualizing stuff. It got to an extreme in the 90s: renting instead of owning, mandatory twig attendance 3 times a week, making a schedule accounting for every 15 minute segment of every day...that kind of "accuracy" is worthy of the toilet.
Hey, Johniam
I like ya man, I really do.
But, this ain't about how far away the sun is or if your boss is givin' ya a bum deal on your pay.
It's about whether or not it's important how many were crucified with Christ, How many denials of Peter there were, etc.
Now, you might think that understanding every nuance of a Greek word is important.
And, maybe to you, it is.(That's you.)
To me, not so much so.(That's me.)
Maybe it's just me, but I think God would be plenty happy if we could at least learn to treat each other fairly, respect each others' differences, help each other when the chips are down and acknowledge His presence.
Hupo,hippo, hypo, herpo----------WHooooo cares?
Learn to love your fellow man.(all inclusive)
That's a big enough challenge to occupy anyone's lifetime.
unless it is a power play about who has the fastest bullet from the bible. often times used to hurt another not help, who is keeping tab? Jesus knows us so well and calls us friends it isnt because we are smarter than the next guy it is because He is more loving than all of us put together
quote: What Bible subjects you do think are worth arguing about?
Um...ACCURACY!
So there must be verses that address the "bible subject" of accuracy then? If, of course, accuracy is a "bible subject".
I think that the discussion is actually about arguing about minutia, not the big issues. For example, do you think it's worth arguing about, or is extremely important how many were crucified with Jesus? Or how many times Peter denied him? Or what exactly was written above Jesus' head on the cross?
Even on the "big" issues, does whether Jesus is God or not affect in any discernable way how you carry on your life from day to day?
quote: So there must be verses that address the "bible subject" of accuracy then? If, of course, accuracy is a "bible subject".
Yes, there are and it is. Neh.8:8 - so they read in the book in the law of God distictly and gave the sense and caused them to understand the reading.
In Judges 11:12-27 Jephthah had a dispute with the Ammonites about past history between the 2 nations and Jephthah prevailed because he knew the accuracy of what was written. Luke had perfect understanding of all things from the very first (Luke 1:4). If God can accurately put the sun 93 million miles from the earth then surely he can get His own word right.
How did those poor Christians ever make it before there were concordances and other study materials? Those poor people did not have the "accuracy" of the Word. I guess they had to depend on the Holy Spirit to teach them.
Accuracy - isn't that what Christ slammed the Pharisees for? swallowing camels and straining at gnats?
How quickly "accuracy" becomes legalism and bondage.
Knowledge of Christ is No. 1, all the accuracy in the world can't fill that void.
I once had an epiphany ...that in twi...with all of it`s accuracy, and all of the physicals in perfect order mania .....didn`t prevent some of the most staunchest adherants from becoming the most evil people I have ever met.
I think that there must be something very important in addition to accurate biblical understanding in order to be a spiritually healthy person.
The Pharisees of Jesus' time were all about "accuracy of the scriptures." They were into the finest details about keeping the law, etc. Yet, when the "Word Made Flesh" was standing right in front of them, they were blind.
The irony is, that the scriptures they were so concerned with being "accurate" about, all pointed to the coming Messiah, the Promised One, the Hope of Israel. They were the most well-educated and learned men of Israel, yet not only did they fail to recognize their Redeemer, they persecuted and crucified him.
Isn't there a lesson in that somewhere??? Sheesh. So much for "accuracy."
quote: So there must be verses that address the "bible subject" of accuracy then? If, of course, accuracy is a "bible subject".
Yes, there are and it is. Neh.8:8 - so they read in the book in the law of God distictly and gave the sense and caused them to understand the reading.
In Judges 11:12-27 Jephthah had a dispute with the Ammonites about past history between the 2 nations and Jephthah prevailed because he knew the accuracy of what was written. Luke had perfect understanding of all things from the very first (Luke 1:4). If God can accurately put the sun 93 million miles from the earth then surely he can get His own word right.
I need to go home and get my Bible later, but from what I remember of the book of Nehemiah, this took place after the people had allowed the temple to fall into ruins and their understanding came from being reminded of the scriptures.
The Jephthah example - has to do with accuracy - so far - (still need to look at it later.)
Luke - as far as I can see this has to do with revelation.
God is accurate. I trust Him to be accurate. I do my best but I don't see Him needling us on every little point the way Pharisees (both modern and ancient) are so fond of doing. He got His own word right - I get my own word right. That does't guarantee that I'm going to get someone else's word right.
As accurate as Jesus was in his life, he also showed how pointless it was to strain at gnats.
The Nehemiah account takes place after Israel had been in captivity for some time. The walls of Jerusalem had been destroyed and the Word of God forgotten or ignored. So, this is not just a verse pointing to "accuracy." (Context is still a good thing. ;)
The record in Judges is a dispute over land. It seems to me that it's more than "accuracy" that gave Jephthah the advantage. He knew the history of the land and he made an appeal to the king's logic,
Judges 11:24, 27 ( I'm leaving out the other verses just to save some time.)
Wilt thou not possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the Lord our God shall drive out frome before us, them will we possess.
Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: the Lord the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.
Luke's reference refers to revelation.
It's senseless to say that accuracy doesn't matter at all. Of course a NASA scientist needs to be accurate but, there is a balance to the "demands" of nit picking religious accuracy.
You look at the Gospels and you see the Pharisees constantly trying to get Jesus to walk their "accurate" walk. He always sidesteps them with the true walk of God's brand of accuracy: grace, mercy and love.
I find it pretty ironic that TWI was so into "accuracy," when so many "leaders" couldn't even figure out that adultery is sin, according to the Bible. Duh.
For me the desire to be right and accuracy are two different things, related by different.
Wanting to be accurate, or "right", correct - not a bad thing, as stated already.
Likewise with the need to be right or accurate - most things we do we want to have right, don't we? I do.
Being able to right or accurate - that's negotiable, transient, fluid, I would think. We want to be when it counts, need to be, and are a lot of the time. But not all the time.
Key to succeeding at anything is knowing what success is. We can pass a test and get "right" answers, if there are in fact right answers. If there's more than one right answer and we put one of them, we're "right". So is someone else who puts a different but still correct response.
With the bible there's great disagreement on what it says, even in verses where it seems there's enough understanding on the words themselves. There's many "interpretations" of the specific meaning of the words, even when the meanings of the words are known.
I can see lots of reasons for disagreement, not all of them legit, but there are some legit reasons for many alternate views of some things.
I think (I''m killin' myself if nobody else!!) it's because the "real" accurate, true meaning of some things is too big for the words themselves, literally. Taking everything in the bible that's said about Jesus that we clearly understand for instance, still leaves us scratching our heads if only because it's such a fantastic rendering of a life. The "son of God" is as fantasitcal as "God the son", in other words. Maybe not to some, but either thing, if looked at as a fact, falls outside the normal whatweseeiswhatweget view of life.
Anyhoo, while it may be important to be "right" about understanding the bible, I think I find that it's absolutely necessary to be right about certain things in life, and I can manage to succeed in being "right" in what I do and think without completely understanding exactly some part of the bible.
As in the example of the adultery quoted above - the average reasonable person would believe that if you make one vow to do one thing, and turn around and redefine it later, the least you would do to remain "right" in your relationships would be to openly state what you're doing and why. But of course, in the Way, that wasn't done by those who bought into it. They hid it.
Mostly because I think - inside - they knew it wasn't "right", but they liked the idea of it anyway and used it as a way to allow for what they wanted to do.
But inside, without even cracking a concordance - they knew it wasn't right. "Accurate" by one person's interpretation, but not right where it really counts - in life. In life, wrong.
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pond
I am guilty of this only with my own children, and mostly it was because i thought it was my duty to train them in the way they should go.
but for the most part my sermons didnt work , my example did.
i think people get stuck and it is about power and control over another.
not always but arrogance is involved. some may want another to feel or know the "blessing" of what they know as truth. i think that is rare.
mostly it is because we want to belong, to a certain group, to a certain manner of thinking . IN my life i do not witness with words alot i have "stuff in my house that clearly says i love jesus Christ as lord. I live in a manner that suggests i have values , But what other people do is of little matter to me.
if they ask i will tell what I think. but i refuse to debate if they have a need to be right I let that happen. no skin off my teeth.
down the road i often find i might learn soemthing from them .
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Ham
I dunno..
I think "truth" is as fragmented in the world as our collective consciousness..
:)
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johniam
quote: I think Accuracy is Overrated!
Oh, really. So if I'm your boss and I under pay you by 75% who cares because accuracy is overrated?
The sun is 93 million miles from earth. If it was 88 million we'd burn up; if it was 98 million we'd be frozen. I think accuracy is important if it's life sustaining. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God. The word of God is life sustaining.
We were told to yield on insignificant matters. This was a literal translation of Philippians 4:5. There's nothing life sustaining about sports statistics or other trivia. Sometimes believers erred by over spiritualizing stuff. It got to an extreme in the 90s: renting instead of owning, mandatory twig attendance 3 times a week, making a schedule accounting for every 15 minute segment of every day...that kind of "accuracy" is worthy of the toilet.
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Oakspear
In some things, accuracy is useless. Sure it makes a difference how far the earth is from the sun, but what difference does it amke whether you or I know what the correct number is, and I doubt there is anyone here (unless Zixar is lurking) that knows it down to the last digit. Same with the salary, sure it's important that I get paid the right amount, but does it matter to you.
Part of the issue with determining biblical accuracy is that no one seems to be able to do it! Oh yeah, many claim to be able to, but can anyone really do it? So if there are always ghoing to be grey areas, why argue and fight over it? is it vital to know whether there were 2 or 4 people crucified with Jesus? How does that affect anything?
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ex10
I find it pretty ironic that TWI was so into "accuracy," when so many "leaders" couldn't even figure out that adultery is sin, according to the Bible. Duh.
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pond
what is accurate?
in a simple problem it is easy.
most problems are complex and the bible is complex , not to metion the spin and takes people can take.
who or what do ya believe ? everyone is an expert.
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Johniam
How did you know what I make on my paycheck? It's almost as if you are psychic. :)
.....
What Bible subjects you do think are worth arguing about?
I wasn't accurate about spelling accuracy which REALLY bothers me!
And the 75% off my paycheck is not so bad when you consider all the fringe benefits!
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Out There
What? Live in a world that is not with a Mathematical exactness and a scientific precision?
I love Johniams arguement. I have 6 employees working for me and I would love to only pay them 75%. If I err in their favor I never hear anout it but if I am off even a nickel in my favor.. get the picture
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pond
I do not think it is even possible.
oh they try . but when and where is it EVER proven to be accurate without the guy saying something different?
i think our holy spirit has a great deal of accurate account for each person who choses to make Jesus christ LORD.
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waysider
Hey, Johniam
I like ya man, I really do.
But, this ain't about how far away the sun is or if your boss is givin' ya a bum deal on your pay.
It's about whether or not it's important how many were crucified with Christ, How many denials of Peter there were, etc.
Now, you might think that understanding every nuance of a Greek word is important.
And, maybe to you, it is.(That's you.)
To me, not so much so.(That's me.)
Maybe it's just me, but I think God would be plenty happy if we could at least learn to treat each other fairly, respect each others' differences, help each other when the chips are down and acknowledge His presence.
Hupo,hippo, hypo, herpo----------WHooooo cares?
Learn to love your fellow man.(all inclusive)
That's a big enough challenge to occupy anyone's lifetime.
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pond
yep waysider
unless it is a power play about who has the fastest bullet from the bible. often times used to hurt another not help, who is keeping tab? Jesus knows us so well and calls us friends it isnt because we are smarter than the next guy it is because He is more loving than all of us put together
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nandon
What do you think about Biblical Accurracy?,
It isn't.
The Importance of Being Right
It doesnt matter.
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George Aar
I dunno, isn't "biblical accuracy" sorta like "military intelligence", "jumbo shrimp", or "corporate ethics"?
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johniam
Oxymorons.
Good point waysider, just....not to leave the other undone.
quote: What Bible subjects you do think are worth arguing about?
Um...ACCURACY!
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Oakspear
I think that the discussion is actually about arguing about minutia, not the big issues. For example, do you think it's worth arguing about, or is extremely important how many were crucified with Jesus? Or how many times Peter denied him? Or what exactly was written above Jesus' head on the cross?
Even on the "big" issues, does whether Jesus is God or not affect in any discernable way how you carry on your life from day to day?
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johniam
quote: So there must be verses that address the "bible subject" of accuracy then? If, of course, accuracy is a "bible subject".
Yes, there are and it is. Neh.8:8 - so they read in the book in the law of God distictly and gave the sense and caused them to understand the reading.
In Judges 11:12-27 Jephthah had a dispute with the Ammonites about past history between the 2 nations and Jephthah prevailed because he knew the accuracy of what was written. Luke had perfect understanding of all things from the very first (Luke 1:4). If God can accurately put the sun 93 million miles from the earth then surely he can get His own word right.
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pond
God can .
Yet people can not.
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Sunesis
How did those poor Christians ever make it before there were concordances and other study materials? Those poor people did not have the "accuracy" of the Word. I guess they had to depend on the Holy Spirit to teach them.
Accuracy - isn't that what Christ slammed the Pharisees for? swallowing camels and straining at gnats?
How quickly "accuracy" becomes legalism and bondage.
Knowledge of Christ is No. 1, all the accuracy in the world can't fill that void.
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rascal
I think biblical accuracy is relative to the person`s understanding foundation...shrug
As we saw in twi...scriptures can be *accurately interpreted to mean just about any idea that the teacher wants to propound.
I think Jesus said it all....Love God and Love your neighbor.....too many times I have seen scriptural accuracy lead us away from that.
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rascal
Wow Sunesis, great points.
I once had an epiphany ...that in twi...with all of it`s accuracy, and all of the physicals in perfect order mania .....didn`t prevent some of the most staunchest adherants from becoming the most evil people I have ever met.
I think that there must be something very important in addition to accurate biblical understanding in order to be a spiritually healthy person.
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ex10
The Pharisees of Jesus' time were all about "accuracy of the scriptures." They were into the finest details about keeping the law, etc. Yet, when the "Word Made Flesh" was standing right in front of them, they were blind.
The irony is, that the scriptures they were so concerned with being "accurate" about, all pointed to the coming Messiah, the Promised One, the Hope of Israel. They were the most well-educated and learned men of Israel, yet not only did they fail to recognize their Redeemer, they persecuted and crucified him.
Isn't there a lesson in that somewhere??? Sheesh. So much for "accuracy."
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doojable
I need to go home and get my Bible later, but from what I remember of the book of Nehemiah, this took place after the people had allowed the temple to fall into ruins and their understanding came from being reminded of the scriptures.
The Jephthah example - has to do with accuracy - so far - (still need to look at it later.)
Luke - as far as I can see this has to do with revelation.
God is accurate. I trust Him to be accurate. I do my best but I don't see Him needling us on every little point the way Pharisees (both modern and ancient) are so fond of doing. He got His own word right - I get my own word right. That does't guarantee that I'm going to get someone else's word right.
As accurate as Jesus was in his life, he also showed how pointless it was to strain at gnats.
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doojable
The Nehemiah account takes place after Israel had been in captivity for some time. The walls of Jerusalem had been destroyed and the Word of God forgotten or ignored. So, this is not just a verse pointing to "accuracy." (Context is still a good thing. ;)
The record in Judges is a dispute over land. It seems to me that it's more than "accuracy" that gave Jephthah the advantage. He knew the history of the land and he made an appeal to the king's logic,
Judges 11:24, 27 ( I'm leaving out the other verses just to save some time.)
Wilt thou not possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the Lord our God shall drive out frome before us, them will we possess.
Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: the Lord the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.
Luke's reference refers to revelation.
It's senseless to say that accuracy doesn't matter at all. Of course a NASA scientist needs to be accurate but, there is a balance to the "demands" of nit picking religious accuracy.
You look at the Gospels and you see the Pharisees constantly trying to get Jesus to walk their "accurate" walk. He always sidesteps them with the true walk of God's brand of accuracy: grace, mercy and love.
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socks
For me the desire to be right and accuracy are two different things, related by different.
Wanting to be accurate, or "right", correct - not a bad thing, as stated already.
Likewise with the need to be right or accurate - most things we do we want to have right, don't we? I do.
Being able to right or accurate - that's negotiable, transient, fluid, I would think. We want to be when it counts, need to be, and are a lot of the time. But not all the time.
Key to succeeding at anything is knowing what success is. We can pass a test and get "right" answers, if there are in fact right answers. If there's more than one right answer and we put one of them, we're "right". So is someone else who puts a different but still correct response.
With the bible there's great disagreement on what it says, even in verses where it seems there's enough understanding on the words themselves. There's many "interpretations" of the specific meaning of the words, even when the meanings of the words are known.
I can see lots of reasons for disagreement, not all of them legit, but there are some legit reasons for many alternate views of some things.
I think
(I''m killin' myself if nobody else!!) it's because the "real" accurate, true meaning of some things is too big for the words themselves, literally. Taking everything in the bible that's said about Jesus that we clearly understand for instance, still leaves us scratching our heads if only because it's such a fantastic rendering of a life. The "son of God" is as fantasitcal as "God the son", in other words. Maybe not to some, but either thing, if looked at as a fact, falls outside the normal whatweseeiswhatweget view of life.
Anyhoo, while it may be important to be "right" about understanding the bible, I think I find that it's absolutely necessary to be right about certain things in life, and I can manage to succeed in being "right" in what I do and think without completely understanding exactly some part of the bible.
As in the example of the adultery quoted above - the average reasonable person would believe that if you make one vow to do one thing, and turn around and redefine it later, the least you would do to remain "right" in your relationships would be to openly state what you're doing and why. But of course, in the Way, that wasn't done by those who bought into it. They hid it.
Mostly because I think - inside - they knew it wasn't "right", but they liked the idea of it anyway and used it as a way to allow for what they wanted to do.
But inside, without even cracking a concordance - they knew it wasn't right. "Accurate" by one person's interpretation, but not right where it really counts - in life. In life, wrong.
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