spot survey

[Abigail]

Dan, I think I am going to really enjoy your presence down here in the basement. :)

Abigail, I just reread your answers and they were all thoughtful and interesting. I'm glad to be getting to know you more. You asked two questions about what I meant by "sin conscious" and "apostles and prophets." Well, the idea of "sin consciousness" being bad for the Christian was a common theme in TWM... the verse comes to mind in Hebrews about having our consciences purged from sin, and of course, the oft-preached Romans 8:1. My question was intended to provide opportunity for others to either affirm that belief or state how they have changed their thinking. My thinking has definitely changed, though I used to believe the party line. Now, I think it's quite beneficial for the believer to be "sin conscious." My goodness... if I sin, (and I will!) I want to be conscious of it! The problems that led to the demise of TWI are precisely that some leaders were sin "UNconscious"! And that, I contend, is a bad place to be..... "with a hot iron"

Yeah, my thinking on sin consciousness has changed a great deal since my TWI days as well. That was why I wanted to understand your definition before I attempted to answer the question. The same would be true for Apostles and Prophets. Funny, when I first joined TWI and learned about the "no condemnation" and "sin consciousness" stuff, I remember telling my mom about it and it really raised a red flag for her. As she so wisely pointed out, and I eventually came to understand the hard way, guilt can be a very healthy emotion when one has done something wrong. Of course, one can go to extremes with guilt too. I like what the mother on "Malcom in the Middle" once told her son - "You will feel bad because you are a good person and you will feel bad for as long as you are supposed to."

And of course, coming from a Jewish family, guilt is something of a trademark, only to be shared with the Catholics. LOL LOL Though I think guilt misused is usually actually shame, which I do see as a very unhealthy emotion. So, if sin consciousness is guilt then I would say sin consciousness is a necessary ingredient to living a godly life. If sin consciousness is shame, I would say it should most certainly be done away with.

As far as apostles and prophets go, I wouldn't presume to define the terms. That is, I meant for people to be able to express whether they believed either prophets or apostles (mentioned in the New Testament, and defined by the way they are used there) are among us today. In other words, Paul called himself an apostle of Jesus Christ. Are there apostles today? That's what I meant. As for me, I cannot be sure, but I think it is possible. Roy's answer was interesting, wasn't it? "what if I said I was one?" To that, Roy, in another life, I would ask you to provide the proof of your apostleship, as Paul did, but I'm not as argumentative as I once was. Your other answers were interesting, too... just can't comment on them now, but I'll get to it! Lots of "true, but false" answers!

Roy is almost always interesting and as you get to know him, I think you will find he is one of the most kind and gentle human beings to walk the planet in our day and time. I don't know if he is an apostle or prophet, but I think in many ways he lives the example Jesus set as well as anyone could.

But I can't define those terms either. I don't often browse the NT anymore. From time to time verses from the NT come to mind and I will make mention of them. From time to time I will search out a specific passage that seems fitting to a post, but I haven't studied the NT in about 7 years now. I guess I would have to say, if there were apostles and prophets in the days of Paul, Timothy, Titus, etc., then I can see no reason why there would not be apostles and prophets today.

Abi-dear, your answer to the is-Jesus-lord question is consistent with all the other posts I've read from you. Would you then say that God is your Lord? The God of Abraham, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Define Lord - lol Here I go again. Lord as defined in TWI was someone who "ruled over you", if memory is correct. Or someone whom you willingly submit yourself too? I think the later was the definition given to us, but the former was how we were expected to behave. :D

I am not sure I really submit myself to anyone anymore - beyond following the laws of the land as best I can, which I haven't really found difficult. I do those things which seem right in my heart. If that is making God my Lord, then yes God is my Lord. I am Jewish and so yes, I that would mean I trust in and endeavor to learn more about the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus. Though it matters not much to me what name is given to God and whether someone wants to refer to him as Allah, Mother Earth, the Goddess, Budah, etc. etc. I think most people are all seeking the same God, we simply find him/her in different places with different names.

Your answer regarding the sabbath was a blessing, too. I agree that strict conformity in the Jewish manner is not wise. It flies in the face of Jesus' teaching and example, for one. This was one area that again and again, he demonstrated or taught that there is something amiss with that kind of practice, much as the sacrifices of Israel become a stink in God's nostrils.

Well being a Jew born to non practicing parents in a very small Christian town makes rigid adherence to the laws a tough thing to learn in adulthood. TWI was my first real experience with organized religion - only real long-term experience, for that matter. From there I studied every well-known religion I could, before finally finding a place where I could come back to my heritage. I absolutely love the teachings among the Chabad sect, though I do not think I could ever practice with the discipline they do. As my cousin (who also came to practice Judaism in adulthood) says, "you take babysteps, maybe you just eat bacon once a week, instead of every day. :) ). I think there are very few Jewish people in America who strictly conform to the laws. Mostly, we focus on doing that which will make our world a better place - and even in that there are many differences of opinion. The laws, the lighting of the candles on the sabbath are a tradition, not a law. It is something we do to remain connected. There is something quite amazing about lighting the candles and realizing that all over the world other people will be doing the same as the sun begins to set in their neighborhood. Likewise, all over the world other Jewish people are studying the exact same passages of the Torah during the same weeks. Each law, each tradition is not there just for law or traditions sake. Rather, it is there to remind us of something bigger, something deeper.

I do not consider myself a follower of Jesus in the tradition, Christian sense (at least as I understand it from my admittedly somewhat limited experience). But in my own way, I do consider myself a follower of his example, nonetheless.

Liz and I "practiced" for some months last year, setting Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as a time of rest... trying to stay just to that basic. I even set up the fireplace with wood ahead of time (it was winter) but I didn't have any qualms about kindling it on Saturday morning. I did a lot of reading on the subject (Jewish and otherwise) and we came to enjoy our prayers and shabbat meals on Friday evening.... sometimes our family or friends would join us. We did not tell too many people we were doing this! I'd like to still be doing it, but I have a lot of responsibilities, and on top of that, I have a little boat I'm fixing up (actually, I'm NOT fixing it up... it just sits there waiting for me to get back to it!). But that condemns me right there. This is not one of the Ten Suggestions!

I figure, on the sabbath you do what blesses you, what brings you peace. If fixing your boat blesses you, then go for it. If fixing your boat leaves you tense and frustrated, then maybe it would be good to take a break. I often shop for groceries on the sabbath morning, but I enjoy shopping. Same with cooking. During the week I am busy with work, kids, laundry, etc. etc. My husband cooks dinner as often, if not more often, than I do during the weekdays. On the weekends I get to cook and I do it because I enjoy it. And as much as I enjoy studying Torah, I usually do that during the week and take a day off from it on the Sabbath. Go figure - you do what works for your life.

I found myself using a Jesus-provided excuse for working on the sabbath... if there were any "little lambs" who had fallen into a ditch, I'd do what I could for them... (i.e. single mothers who needed their gardens tilled!)

How long have you been away from TWI? And where are you planning on putting that little boat when you are done fixing it?

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Abigail

God loves us my dear friend

Thank you Abigail

you are a blessing to be around my friend

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Edited August 2, 2007 by year2027

[Eyesopen]

EyesOpen, I'm glad your eyes are open. Though we disagree about a couple of the items, I've come to enjoy reading all of your posts that I come across. You're honest and sometimes very clever (Did David write Psalm 23? You don't know, but you like it regardless!). Your take on the sabbath was particularly appreciated.

That's ok I dont mind disagreeing, makes for a more lively conversation. Especially here in the basement. Up in the "other" forums it could cause trouble but down here it just means that we have more to research and talk about. You will also find that my head is not made of granite (although some might say that it is full of rocks!) I can change my mind...hence my tag line.

Most folks that hang out down here are fairly easy to talk to and will at least give an honest debate and not a heated argument. Abi and Roy both give us wonderfully diverse points of view. Abi gives us a lot of history and background as well as heart behind much of what we were taught in twi to be "only for our learning" and not really given much time. Roy gives us a great deal of "outside" the box thinking that really gets the gray matter moving. He also graces us with a heart as big as Manhatten and a depth of perception that at times staggers me.

Both Mr. Ham and CMan give us all a simplicity that keeps us all from getting too lofty minded and help us stay in perspective. CMan is usually quite direct where Ham likes to run around the tree a few times before he truly catches the nut. Both make honest, profound statements that easily cut right to the heart of things.

Lots of folks hang out here in the basement. Most are seeking answers to their questions. Many dont really know that they had a question until someone brings it up. All add something to every thread that they choose to get involved with. And mind you...here it is "involved" when you post to a thead. This is not like some forums where you can just put in .02 cents and walk away. Here it behoves you to get involved in whatever thread that strikes your interest. We all learn more that way.

I like this thread. I like the time you put into formulating the questions. You will fit in just fine here. :)

[Jeaniam]

Jean, on the top of the reply page you'll find a button with an "A" with an downward pointing arrow. Highlight your text and click on a color.

Thank you, Larry. Now let's give it a try. What do you know, it worked. Sorry, all, I'm being childish.

.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jeaniam

[LindaR]

First post -

Beliefs:

God is god (and I'm not).

Jesus is lord (I try not to be).

I am a child of the living God - by SEED ("after it's kind") - and so one day (in the resurrection) I will be holy, even as HE is holy.

There ain't no arriving til HE arrives.

LR

[Eyesopen]

Thank you, Larry. Now let's give it a try. What do you know, it worked. Sorry, all, I'm being childish.

.

I remember when I figured out how to make the smileys open up. I used so many in a post that the puter said I had to trim it down a bit...now that my dear Jean is childish. It's fun learning new things.

First post -

Beliefs:

God is god (and I'm not).

Jesus is lord (I try not to be).

I am a child of the living God - by SEED ("after it's kind") - and so one day (in the resurrection) I will be holy, even as HE is holy.

There ain't no arriving til HE arrives.

LR

Great answers Linda! Welcome to the Spot!

Edited August 2, 2007 by Eyesopen

[Larry N Moore]

Thank you, Larry. Now let's give it a try. What do you know, it worked. Sorry, all, I'm being childish.

.

You're very welcome Jean.

If you're going to call yourself childish for asking for help, then I guess that makes me childish for giving it to you.

I think I'm running out of crayon colors. ;)

[George Aar]

Yeah, Dan,

I was a Wayfer - for 15 long years. Hated it mostly, but went along 'cause I had the idiot notion that "there was nowhere else to go" (!).

I was a Methodist before that, and spent my early years in a Lutheran Church. My earliest recollections of religious life (time in the church) were always in a pretty agnostic frame of reference. I think I've just gone back to my real "roots" now. (Yeah, I know, the old "dog returning to his vomit" - great verse huh?)

Mostly all religions strike me, more and more, as being really preposterous. They all seem to want desperately to have some sort of reason or logic to back them up, but, rather than lay down some basic reasons why their beliefs make sense, generally just do an endrun around logic and declare their faith to be "The Truth" by fiat. I'm not much impressed anymore.

And it strikes me that - if there really is a GOD, He must be one capricious mutha. But life goes on just fine without Him, or, as good as it ever did anyway.

I can identify with the "painful" part though. That pain struck me every time I tried to study The Bible and have it make sense. I never got there...

Oh, and BTW, welcome.

I don't know why, but you strike me as a gentle, egalitarian sorta guy. But maybe one that reads too much.

Anyway, nice to "see" you here...

Edited August 2, 2007 by George Aar

[anotherDan]

George, I think you may be right about me reading too much. Better than watching too much TV, though.

LindaR, great answers and great first post! Thanks for joining in. You be careful in here!

Eyes: when you say "the basement" do you mean the doctrinal area, or GSC? Still figuring out the lingo... also, why does my moniker say "wants to sit at the counter"? I didn't write that and I can't seem to change that. And what does "do I have kids or did I read it in a thread" mean?

Abi, I'm going to fish and crab in the Chesapeake Bay, take my wife on sunset dinner cruises, and on very nice days, go offshore for tuna and mahi mahi. I left TWI around 1990, I guess. Had quite a tough time at ROA '90 with some of my former friends because I wasn't buying the "present truth" concept.

Mr.H: "collective consciousness" can be a good thing, better, at least than "relative truth."

Edited August 2, 2007 by anotherDan

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Eyesopen

God loves us my dear friend

Thank you Eyesopen I knew I had a enlarge heart but she see it really big thanks

you are a blessing to be around my dear friend

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Eyesopen]

Eyes: when you say "the basement" do you mean the doctrinal area, or GSC? Still figuring out the lingo... also, why does my moniker say "wants to sit at the counter"? I didn't write that and I can't seem to change that. And what does "do I have kids or did I read it in a thread" mean?

Hey AD- The basement refers to "doctrinal" or any other forum located at the bottom of the page like the "soap opera" forum. If GS is anything it is "left field" or beyond but not the basement. That implies that they actually let us stay in the same house or that we would want to stay. NOT! This is our little house far removed from TWI. And we like it that way.

As for your little "wants to sit at the counter" problem. That is a default line. If you want to change it follow this path...click "my controls" at the top of the page (right hand side). Then on the left hand side of that page is a list of stuff, click on "edit profile information" it's near the bottom. Then at the top in the middle is a box identified as "Custom Member title" click inside the box and write what you want. But only what shows in the box will show under your name. It will not see anything after it starts scrolling. So keep it short and sweet.

[Eyesopen]

God first

Beloved Eyesopen

God loves us my dear friend

Thank you Eyesopen I knew I had a enlarge heart but she see it really big thanks

you are a blessing to be around my dear friend

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Roy darlin' you know I just love flirting with you! :D

Larry don't use the pink pink...cant see the bloody stuff! I'm getting old...be kind!

[anotherDan]

"some of Jesus' commands were impossible to carry out"

My answer to this (in Roy fashion!) is "true and false". Loving your enemy, doing good to those who despitefully use you... these are "impossible" with men, but not with God. When Jesus said "he that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works..." I believe it includes these "impossible" commands. Remember, loving your enemy is loving HIS enemies as well. Beware! Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the religious leaders, you will in NO WAY enter the kingdom of heaven.

have we all just become "members" now? no more "newbies" and "advanced members"?

Edited August 2, 2007 by anotherDan

[year2027]

God first

Beloved anotherDan

God loves us my dear friend

what are you saying Dan my answer to "Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U" was "false (because ) I give holy kisses too " (a hard thing I able to do)

I can love those who despitefully use me

the reason there are more than one answer to a lot is because we only prophecy in part so no one on earth has the whole answer

like their is a trinity the way it begin but it might not be the way some teach today while Jesus was still the son of God and Christ is still the gift in us hope of glory

here another one of your questions and my answers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U

in a way true but in another way False Jesus of Nazareth was the second Adam the creation of flesh with spiritual image from as a family of God's creations or of that which came from God to become like God but more like a son

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

other wise Jesus of Nazareth was not unlike any thing elst because there was the first Adam but when he was alive on earth he was the only living with living spirit all others were over shower to lite up their dead spirit

but because of Jesus of Nazareth gave of himself we got a third Adam 4,5, and endless number of Adams because we received seed of Christ given life to that which was without light dead in sin but now alive in hope

I will end here

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[LindaR]

This could be addicting.

Thanks for the welcome.

Another Dan: What do you mean, "be careful in here"?

Roy, I love you!

Details of the survey, best I can remember (and, "true/false" answers are too confining):

Scripture is God-breathed.

Job is "wisdom" literature.

Homosexuality is fruitless.

God loves us all.

Love summarizes law and justice.

All for now -

LR

[Abigail]

Welcome, LindaR. Yes, this place can be very addicting, so you might just as well have some coffee while we converse. :)

Dan, you were smart to get out when you did. You left right around the time I was joining up. :)

[year2027]

God first

Beloved LindaR

God loves us my dear friend

I love you too LindaR

yes " true/false" answers are too confining"

yes scripture is living taking in truth in part and letting truth out in part until Christ comes back to make all truth whole again

I wanted to add how must you have blessed my heart thanks

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Edited August 2, 2007 by year2027

[anotherDan]

Dan, you were smart to get out when you did. You left right around the time I was joining up. smile.gif

My goodness, Abi, I feel for you! Anyway, I'm glad you're out. The insanity seemed to grow exponentially.

LindaR I said to be careful because there are people here who will chew you up and spit you out. There is a "decaffinated" section just for those who can't take it any more (and it can even get rough in there!) Just a friendly warning.

Roy, I was saying that I agreed with you on the "impossible commands" question, because I too felt it was true in a sense and false in a sense. Yes, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

[Eyesopen]

This could be addicting.

Homosexuality is fruitless.

You are correct as Abi said can be quite addicting. And a lot of fun at times.

I don't want to start a war or anything, but could you explain why you say "fruitless". Does this refer to the obvious lack of natural children?

Dan- I see you found the correct "controls".

[LindaR]

Yep, addicting alright -

Another Dan: Thanks for the tip. (I'll be defending my dissertation soon, so perhaps the "rough" practice will be good for me.) How'd you get those nifty pics into the post?

On with the survey:

I Cor. 12 deserves in-depth study and a long narrative answer because it's about the benefits of divine nature (God's and His nature in us). 'S-all for now.

Not sure God is moved by prayer, but when I add my prayers to His purposes, things happen.

All religion is a perversion.

Best I can tell, Jesus' teaching is midrash and should lead to practical application of some kind. (God takes "should" into account in the same way He takes everything about flesh into account.)

"Sin-consciousness" is often self-consciousness I've noticed. Better to be HIM-conscious and confess sin when you need to.

Re. canon: Was the canonization process an aspect of "God-breathed"? Dunno.

Apostolic and prophetic gifts are active today, but I don't think these are titles or "offices".

Being "born again" is a resurrection process. (I loved Roy's answer.)

I loved Roy's answer about the sabbath too. It is a resting place; it is the seventh; and in the big picture, Tabernacles is the 7th of 7 "appointed times" (Passover being first) - this is a metaphor for our dwelling/rest with the Lord, first during the 1000 yrs., then forever.

LR

[LindaR]

Eyes: Yes, to your question. And also it is a metaphor for "fruitless" behavior in general, I think.

[Abigail]

Yep, addicting alright -

Best I can tell, Jesus' teaching is midrash and should lead to practical application of some kind. (God takes "should" into account in the same way He takes everything about flesh into account.)

LR

Interesting, Linda. I guess I view his teachings that way too, though I had never actually applied the terminology. Have you studied much of the midrash?

What are you writing your disertation about?

[year2027]

God first

Beloved anotherDan

God loves us my dear friend

you wrote

------------------------------------------------------

Roy, I was saying that I agreed with you on the "impossible commands" question, because I too felt it was true in a sense and false in a sense. Yes, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but I feeled it was false because like you said "with God all things are possible"

nothing is impossible but there are things that have a wider meaning then just true or false because while in one view its true and from another view its false

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

but I am glad you see my point for saying on some true and false

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Beloved LindaR

God loves us my dear friend

thank you again my friend

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Eyesopen]

Eyes: Yes, to your question. And also it is a metaphor for "fruitless" behavior in general, I think.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Certainly in light of children it is fruitless. But those that are homosexual certainly do not believe that their love is fruitless. Hence their "behavior" is not fruitless anymore than a heterosexual's would be to them.

I am also curious what your disertation is about.

[LindaR]

Eyes: It seems to me, we are addressing different aspects of the same question. One aspect is propensity/potential. The other is action/behavior. Love is NEVER fruitless. Is it possible for homosexuals and/or heterosexuals to love and not engage in fruitless actions? As a married woman, for example, can I love another man without engaging in fruitless action? It seems to me that the answer is yes. Sexual propensity and/or lustful desire are issues of potential. My answer to the doctrinal question assumed that an action took place, in which case fruit (or lack of it) is the issue. I based my answer on the fact that Scripture likens actions to sowing seed, and by extension to production of fruit (or not).

Abi: No I haven't studied midrash per se. My academic advisor teaches a course on ancient Hebraic methods of searching the Scriptures, which I took as a graduate student. It included the methods themselves, which are named and have specific rules. In Greek we would call them hermeneutical principles. The course also included examples of rulings or applications of the methods. In Greek the term for this is exegesis. The Hebraic equivalent of exegesis is also the term, midrash, which can be confusing.

The title of my dissertation is "Seven Feasts: A Menology of the Ages". It is a comparison between the seven "appointed times of the Lord" (Lev. 23) and the seven so-called dispensations/administrations. I use the term, "menology" when referring to the sacred calendar as a figure for the so-called "plan of redemption" and its counterpart, "redemptive history" in dispensationalist and covenant theology.

Part of my thesis is that the sacred calendar is arranged as a chiasmic structure. The menorah is a visual example of such a structure, having a central stem and six branches on each side. The sacred calendar is arranged as Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. The first three are observed as a unit, and so are the last three. Pentecost is the central "appointed time" in the menology, and is observed singularly. One definitive aspect of Pentecost is that it is "sevens of sevens". In a corresponding dispensational scheme Christ's administration is central.

The above refers to the hermeneutic aspect of my study (an application of various figurative methods, like chiasm, numeric symbolism and metaphor - especially "Lamb of God" for Jesus, and "seed" for resurrection. The exegesis is another matter.

Yikes! ENOUGH ALREADY!!

LR