When I left twi I thought "the word" was the word study program they taught.
I went to college learned how to learn and NOW I realize what they taught worked for them and their means.
is it wrong? it is what everyone does if your honest every thing we learn has a agenda. from somwhere somehow.
that is not bitterness or disbelieve to me it is the truth.
I like bible verses. God knows i have learned them and read or heard Many of the spins and definitions .
for me the word is my heart, what i know as truth.
I could be wrong so im far from being the zealot twi taught people to be.
bible verses are NOT clear or concise, the bible is NOT an easy read. the more you study it the more you will realize that. if it is just a matter of hearing a tape or a preacher and your love and trust what they say it means the word is easier to know.
i stopped doing that. it wasnt my word .
and many of this is to say GODS word says... hello go down the street a few more miles and that one says Gods words says something eles. same words being used different ideas of what it means in application.
I do not believe the competitiion comes down to tit and tat on who is right or wrong or more knowledgable about bible verses.
the competition comes down to life and death or even right or wrong choices. Those ideas come from the heart of any man. and only God truly knows that heart within.
But what about specificall having the Word.....living the Word.....pleasing to God.......upright and righteous before God? Surely, it's not just an academic exercise? After all, we're not just talking about mental gymnastic of "renewing the mind"....if one is to stand APPROVED OF GOD.......??
Clearly, the bible is full of examples and illustrations of LIVING the truth......i.e. 1) walk in love, 2) walk in light and 3) walk circumspectly. Hundreds of other examples, I know.
Skyrider
I think the problem is that the "Living Word," our Lord Jesus Christ was absent from the picture. After all, his words as recorded in the Gospels were "for our learning" only. Sheesh. Way doctrine totally negated the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives day by day. We weren't followers of him, as most Christians at least claim to be. We became followers of men who claimed to have the "righly divided word," while we ignored the supreme teacher and leader of men.
I think the problem is that the "Living Word," our Lord Jesus Christ was absent from the picture. After all, his words as recorded in the Gospels were "for our learning" only. Sheesh. Way doctrine totally negated the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives day by day. We weren't followers of him, as most Christians at least claim to be. We became followers of men who claimed to have the "righly divided word," while we ignored the supreme teacher and leader of men.
Very sad.
So true, ex10.
From where I sit today, wierwille did a masterful job of marketing pfal and giving us the ole switcheroo. He lamblasted churches and private interpretation and following after the right-reverend-so-and-so.......AND THEN, closed out "his class" with a grandeur statement of "Just write THE TEACHER."
Wierwille was over a thousand miles away from me.......but I DID SEE how the wow ambassadors loved and lived what truth they knew. I DID SEE how the wows fought for us and pointed out some of the snares and pitfalls of the devil. I DID SEE how the wows cared for the sick and feeble and faint of heart. And, from this.... I transferred my respect from these LIVING EPISTLES to a man in Ohio that I didn't know from Adam. I gave wierwille (and others) FAR TOO MUCH RESPECT than he (or they) deserved......simply because wierwille had robbed Rev. B.G. Leonard's class and taught it to others.
In hindsight, I see how twi's "the word" is triggered with buzz words and cliches......RATHER than a full reckoning and disclosure of biblical truths. Imagine, taking a bible class that highlighted THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH BELIEVERS and not esteeming our Lord Jesus in his proper, elevated, seated at God's right hand, position as Head of the One Body?? Yeppers, I'd say that our allegiances were subtly derailed and we were led down the mystery train of tunnels and horrors.
Ever notice, that even to this day......vpw-apologists will NOT veer from wierwille's cliches. They staunchly repeat them and hold them in high regard, even when these generic cliches have SO MUCH AMBIGUITY IN THEM.
I think the problem is that the "Living Word," our Lord Jesus Christ was absent from the picture. After all, his words as recorded in the Gospels were "for our learning" only. Sheesh. Way doctrine totally negated the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives day by day. We weren't followers of him, as most Christians at least claim to be. We became followers of men who claimed to have the "righly divided word," while we ignored the supreme teacher and leader of men.
Yeah, sky, at some point along the way, knowledge of the bible according to VPW, replaced a relationship with the one and only "man of God for our day and time," Jesus Christ.
Yeah, sky, at some point along the way, knowledge of the bible according to VPW, replaced a relationship with the one and only "man of God for our day and time," Jesus Christ.
I think that's the summation of the twi experience...Christ was absent.
..so what's the true word?...I think pond's post was close to what I'm thinking when he said "for me the word is my heart, what I know as truth"...
...Jesus said that the spirit would lead us into all truth...that it would connect us to God through Christ...the experience of life as God works in us, inspires us, teaches us...it's not about what's written in a book...it's about living life and knowing Him.
...but doesn't somebody have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's?...doesn't somebody have to dissect the grammer and delve into the ancient languages?...doesn't somebody have to emerge as the "authority"?...The guy who can prove he is right scripturally?
Naw, I don't think so...it's not about being a scholar, it's about having God's spirit and loving people..."the word" is just a cliche unless it is written in your heart.
Yeah, Groucho. You reminded me that "having the true word" can't be about scholarship or academic prowess. If that were the criteria throughout the 2,000 year history of Christianity on this planet, hardly anybody could qualify. Jesus taught "ignorant and unlearned men." Yet there were able to "know the truth" and spread it over the then known world in just a few years.
Heck, from what I understand, there are still spoken languages that the Bible hasn't even been translated into yet. "Having the true word" has got to be much bigger than knowledge acquired through academic study. I suspect it has more to do with imitating the character of the "true word," Jesus Christ. And letting him lead, guide, and direct his church.
"Having the true word" has got to be much bigger than knowledge acquired through academic study. I suspect it has more to do with imitating the character of the "true word," Jesus Christ. And letting him lead, guide, and direct his church.
IF...."having the true word" was simply limited to academic study and tracking every truth back to the pfal series....THEN why have CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY? I mean, really, if mastery of biblical study and intellect is the in-filling of spiritual summits, and a disregard for holy spirit within is commonplace... THEN what about all those Book of Acts experiences of Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Stephen, Cornelius, etc.?
How did wierwille phrase it in pfal......"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ."
Absent Christ?????? Didn't Paul of Tarsus see Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus? And, didn't he receive holy spirit and walk in God's power? And, didn't Paul receive revelation BY Jesus Christ? And, didn't Paul receive the truths of this Age of Grace via holy spirit from God moved within him?
Cliches are debunk of authority. Take that "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" off your refrigerator and trash it. It's a loaded cliche that helps to push wierwille's private interpretation and skew the TRUE ESSENCE OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE INCARNATE WORD, AND THE WRITTEN REVELATION FROM GOD'S HOLY MEN.
I think academics were elevated way too high in Twi-land.
Never did hear much teaching from the gospels. What was that all about? Maybe VP was afraid to see Jesus Christ lived love, which was something he didn't know or want to do.
Now that I've left, I see more of the love of God in church goers I've met who know one tenth of the word that tiwts know.
I think, that practice is much more useful than knowledge. Someone who practices the love of God can actually help someone.
Ex, you reminded me of a teaching I heard awhile back on the use of "Rabbi" in the gospels, and the number of times Jesus was referred to as Rabbi, Teacher, etc.
Jesus was certainly viewed in that context during His life. When asked where He'd learned what He taught, it seems that was the context. As a Teacher with followers, who was His Rabbi, the one He'd learned from?
If someone were asked that question in our society and they said "God", hmmm, that might be viewed as suspect.
The way, truth and the life...if He provides a way, access as it were, there should be at the least a growing awareness and appreciation for where He's taking us. If it relies on some understanding of certain choice verses, that seems counter productive. Not that there aren't choice verses to understand, that open the understanding. But how many verses does it take to get there? ("Are we there yet?")
If the bible tells of a Messiah to come, and the people that looked for Him and lived towards His coming....and then tells of His coming, and then of those who followed Him afterwards....
Then there's really only one message. It can be told many different ways, but the ending's always the same in this book.
If we got a new car and drove to Disney World and had a blast getting there, but stayed in the car when we got there - all those rides would go to waste. :) ("the brochure says it's really cool in there...!)
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pond
When I left twi I thought "the word" was the word study program they taught.
I went to college learned how to learn and NOW I realize what they taught worked for them and their means.
is it wrong? it is what everyone does if your honest every thing we learn has a agenda. from somwhere somehow.
that is not bitterness or disbelieve to me it is the truth.
I like bible verses. God knows i have learned them and read or heard Many of the spins and definitions .
for me the word is my heart, what i know as truth.
I could be wrong so im far from being the zealot twi taught people to be.
bible verses are NOT clear or concise, the bible is NOT an easy read. the more you study it the more you will realize that. if it is just a matter of hearing a tape or a preacher and your love and trust what they say it means the word is easier to know.
i stopped doing that. it wasnt my word .
and many of this is to say GODS word says... hello go down the street a few more miles and that one says Gods words says something eles. same words being used different ideas of what it means in application.
I do not believe the competitiion comes down to tit and tat on who is right or wrong or more knowledgable about bible verses.
the competition comes down to life and death or even right or wrong choices. Those ideas come from the heart of any man. and only God truly knows that heart within.
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Ham
I dunno..
I think "the truth" is about as fragmented in the world as our collective consciousness is..
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ex10
Skyrider
I think the problem is that the "Living Word," our Lord Jesus Christ was absent from the picture. After all, his words as recorded in the Gospels were "for our learning" only. Sheesh. Way doctrine totally negated the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives day by day. We weren't followers of him, as most Christians at least claim to be. We became followers of men who claimed to have the "righly divided word," while we ignored the supreme teacher and leader of men.
Very sad.
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skyrider
So true, ex10.
From where I sit today, wierwille did a masterful job of marketing pfal and giving us the ole switcheroo. He lamblasted churches and private interpretation and following after the right-reverend-so-and-so.......AND THEN, closed out "his class" with a grandeur statement of "Just write THE TEACHER."
Wierwille was over a thousand miles away from me.......but I DID SEE how the wow ambassadors loved and lived what truth they knew. I DID SEE how the wows fought for us and pointed out some of the snares and pitfalls of the devil. I DID SEE how the wows cared for the sick and feeble and faint of heart. And, from this.... I transferred my respect from these LIVING EPISTLES to a man in Ohio that I didn't know from Adam. I gave wierwille (and others) FAR TOO MUCH RESPECT than he (or they) deserved......simply because wierwille had robbed Rev. B.G. Leonard's class and taught it to others.
In hindsight, I see how twi's "the word" is triggered with buzz words and cliches......RATHER than a full reckoning and disclosure of biblical truths. Imagine, taking a bible class that highlighted THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH BELIEVERS and not esteeming our Lord Jesus in his proper, elevated, seated at God's right hand, position as Head of the One Body?? Yeppers, I'd say that our allegiances were subtly derailed and we were led down the mystery train of tunnels and horrors.
Ever notice, that even to this day......vpw-apologists will NOT veer from wierwille's cliches. They staunchly repeat them and hold them in high regard, even when these generic cliches have SO MUCH AMBIGUITY IN THEM.
<_<
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oldiesman
Wow, now that's a bit of spin.
Who is "we"? Do you speak for all twi and ex twi?
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ex10
Yeah, sky, at some point along the way, knowledge of the bible according to VPW, replaced a relationship with the one and only "man of God for our day and time," Jesus Christ.
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waysider
And there you have it.
Take one little word( in this case "we"), and squeeze it like a sponge until it produces the desired bounty.
You know danged well who "we" referred to, Oldies.
Skyrider said: "We became followers of men who claimed to have "the rightly divided Word."
Are you now saying you were never a "follower" of VPW?
You sure could have fooled me by the context and nature of your posts.
You got skunked, my friend.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that's the summation of the twi experience...Christ was absent.
..so what's the true word?...I think pond's post was close to what I'm thinking when he said "for me the word is my heart, what I know as truth"...
...Jesus said that the spirit would lead us into all truth...that it would connect us to God through Christ...the experience of life as God works in us, inspires us, teaches us...it's not about what's written in a book...it's about living life and knowing Him.
...but doesn't somebody have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's?...doesn't somebody have to dissect the grammer and delve into the ancient languages?...doesn't somebody have to emerge as the "authority"?...The guy who can prove he is right scripturally?
Naw, I don't think so...it's not about being a scholar, it's about having God's spirit and loving people..."the word" is just a cliche unless it is written in your heart.
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waysider
Long before my Mom ever heard of TWI or took "The Class" or ran a twig, she told us kids that God loved us for who we are,not who we could become.
Maybe that's as close to the true Word as we can hope to get.
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ex10
Yeah, Groucho. You reminded me that "having the true word" can't be about scholarship or academic prowess. If that were the criteria throughout the 2,000 year history of Christianity on this planet, hardly anybody could qualify. Jesus taught "ignorant and unlearned men." Yet there were able to "know the truth" and spread it over the then known world in just a few years.
Heck, from what I understand, there are still spoken languages that the Bible hasn't even been translated into yet. "Having the true word" has got to be much bigger than knowledge acquired through academic study. I suspect it has more to do with imitating the character of the "true word," Jesus Christ. And letting him lead, guide, and direct his church.
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skyrider
IF...."having the true word" was simply limited to academic study and tracking every truth back to the pfal series....THEN why have CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY? I mean, really, if mastery of biblical study and intellect is the in-filling of spiritual summits, and a disregard for holy spirit within is commonplace... THEN what about all those Book of Acts experiences of Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Stephen, Cornelius, etc.?
How did wierwille phrase it in pfal......"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ."
Absent Christ?????? Didn't Paul of Tarsus see Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus? And, didn't he receive holy spirit and walk in God's power? And, didn't Paul receive revelation BY Jesus Christ? And, didn't Paul receive the truths of this Age of Grace via holy spirit from God moved within him?
Cliches are debunk of authority. Take that "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" off your refrigerator and trash it. It's a loaded cliche that helps to push wierwille's private interpretation and skew the TRUE ESSENCE OF GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE INCARNATE WORD, AND THE WRITTEN REVELATION FROM GOD'S HOLY MEN.
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polar bear
Sky-
I think academics were elevated way too high in Twi-land.
Never did hear much teaching from the gospels. What was that all about? Maybe VP was afraid to see Jesus Christ lived love, which was something he didn't know or want to do.
Now that I've left, I see more of the love of God in church goers I've met who know one tenth of the word that tiwts know.
I think, that practice is much more useful than knowledge. Someone who practices the love of God can actually help someone.
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socks
Ex, you reminded me of a teaching I heard awhile back on the use of "Rabbi" in the gospels, and the number of times Jesus was referred to as Rabbi, Teacher, etc.
Jesus was certainly viewed in that context during His life. When asked where He'd learned what He taught, it seems that was the context. As a Teacher with followers, who was His Rabbi, the one He'd learned from?
If someone were asked that question in our society and they said "God", hmmm, that might be viewed as suspect.
The way, truth and the life...if He provides a way, access as it were, there should be at the least a growing awareness and appreciation for where He's taking us. If it relies on some understanding of certain choice verses, that seems counter productive. Not that there aren't choice verses to understand, that open the understanding. But how many verses does it take to get there? ("Are we there yet?")
If the bible tells of a Messiah to come, and the people that looked for Him and lived towards His coming....and then tells of His coming, and then of those who followed Him afterwards....
Then there's really only one message. It can be told many different ways, but the ending's always the same in this book.
If we got a new car and drove to Disney World and had a blast getting there, but stayed in the car when we got there - all those rides would go to waste. :) ("the brochure says it's really cool in there...!)
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