I do not try to pursuade people to abandon their faith. I do try to share things that might add to their perspective or change their perspective, if they find it helpful.
One of the things that occured to me over the years of posting here is that if you pull the rug out from under someone before they are ready, you can do them harm.
If you knew that sharing your viewpoint would ultimately convince someone to not believe in God would you still share it? (Assuming you would want people to draw nearer to God – not away from Him).
The verse I'm always reminded of (but struggle following) is Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Although I am guilty of speaking words to others that don't (and aren't intended to) edify them I've always been reluctant to speak any words that may cause someone to turn away from believing in and/or believing God.
Is there another way of understanding that verse which would justify speaking words which can potentially cause someone to abandon their faith?
How could you know that what you say will cause someone to abandon their faith? That seems to imply having a lot of power over someone else. I could see it working with a child or young person who looked up to you, though.
If they --an adult--abandon it, maybe it wasn't really theirs to begin with. Maybe there were things going on in their hearts and minds you weren't privy to.
I think ex ways can tell when someone is trying to 'witness the truth ' to them to try to change their beliefs somehow. It was a huge part of our Way lifestyle, and a habit pattern for many.
If they felt they no longer had faith in thier god would be one thing..if they were struggling thru a difficult time I would minister to the need maybe not thier God..but the bigger question..where is the struggle..
Is there another way of understanding that verse which would justify speaking words which can potentially cause someone to abandon their faith?—Larry
Not that I know of.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Twi dished out enough harm in this category, why would I want to add to it? But that’s me. My own ethics prevent me from saying or doing anything harmful or potentially harmful to others in any category. I do this out of self love as much as love to others, so I don’t have to deal with guilt. Like you though, I’ve been known not to follow it all the time… Others have to make their own decisions.
I'm not sure if this would go with what you're talking about but I would be concerned with what may cause another to stumble. Which could be some blatant sin in my life or me simply flaunting my freedom [in a non-moral issue] and compelling a brother to do the same – against their own conscience [for some reason they believe violating a particular non-moral issue is sin – as talked about in Romans 14].
Matthew 18:5-9 NIV
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Romans 14:13-23 NIV
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
I Corinthians 10:31-33 NIV
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
In TWI 'compelling' people was a way of life, though as time went on it became more of a caste system as to who could compel whom. But I remember the type of pressure we would put on our peers to go to the Rock etc, back in the good old days.
Outside of TWI I have seen very little of it. Maybe I just avoid those types without thinking about it much. I do have a co worker who seems very needy and controlling, I try to be nice but not get tied up in her pouting wierd stuff.
Since I don't believe anyone must be one religion or another, I don't feel any need to hide thoughts or actions to keep some one else's faith unshaken. I think when people can know in themselves that yes, there are other thoughts, beliefs and practices in this matter, but this is my path, they are in a good place. I think that is much better than isolation from other thoughts etc, as we had in TWI. Like minded we were, but the price was high.
But I don't think we all have to be like minded, just in case someone gets confused in their doctrine. They are an adult, let them sort it through.
My feeling is that if I just express what I feel about my faith, if I share what my faith means to me and the joy and comfort it has brought to me , simply, honestly, and clearly, whatever happens after that is out of my hands.
By sharing my faith, I don't mean in an accusitory or condemnatory way. I mean conveying the joy and happiness that the Holy Ghost has brought to my life, the peace that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father imbues my life with.
It is the job iof God to judge, It is our job to uplift , support and encourage. Reproof, correction and confrontation are not a normal part of the job--if and when they become necessary Heavenly Father will give us a clear sign.
I do know what you mean about turning someone away from the Lord but if you keep your mesage loving and simple, and they turn away--it probably has notheing to do with the message per se but their own feelings of guilt. While inducing guilt shouild not be a goal it often happens that guilt is induced as the "seeds are sown". Seeds of faith, even on rocky soil, can sometimes find a patch of earth to grow in. I would rather have sown a seed that has the potential of taking root an year or ten years down the road than to never have sown any "seed" at all
I'm not sure if this would go with what you're talking about but I would be concerned with what may cause another to stumble. Which could be some blatant sin in my life or me simply flaunting my freedom [in a non-moral issue] and compelling a brother to do the same – against their own conscience [for some reason they believe violating a particular non-moral issue is sin – as talked about in Romans 14].
I think it fits in quite nicely with what I'm talking about.
I didn't start this topic to "argue" with anyone but rather to read the thoughts of others on the subject. Whatever comes to mind to another is "fitting" as far as I'm concerned. I may add a comment from time to time but for now I'm more interested in reading and giving thought to what others say. And I thank you all for your responses.
I find this topic interesting because this morning I was having a conversation with a believer (non TWI) who is having some health issues, and during this conversation I pointed out to her that God doesn't want her to be sick. She is of the opinion that God's plan includes her illness and He must have a purpose for it. I forbore getting into a long discussion with her on the subject of the adversary and who makes you sick, etc. I guess it seems to me that giving some people information that they're not ready for doesn't 'minister grace unto the hearer', and could actually be harmful.
Jean, here's the reason I think TWI's doctrine regarding satan and sickness can be harmful to one who is sick, if you are interested.
1. As TWI taught it (at least in the later years) the implication is if you became sick it was because you were out of fellowship with God. It was your fault, you did something wrong. I cannot even begin to describe the condemnation one felt when a child was ill!
2. If you leave out the blame of the individual the implication is, Satan is more powerful than God, i.e. Satan can make you ill, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
I find this topic interesting because this morning I was having a conversation with a believer (non TWI) who is having some health issues, and during this conversation I pointed out to her that God doesn't want her to be sick. She is of the opinion that God's plan includes her illness and He must have a purpose for it. I forbore getting into a long discussion with her on the subject of the adversary and who makes you sick, etc. I guess it seems to me that giving some people information that they're not ready for doesn't 'minister grace unto the hearer', and could actually be harmful.
Good example Jean! I can recall many of my own experiences mirroring what you have pointed out here. It's unfortunate that someone would prefer to believe God has a purpose for their sickness instead of thinking that if they weren't sick it would make it possible for them to do so much more for the Lord. Besides that -- it's not really a good witness of God's benevolence to a non-believer. Why would a non-believer want to accept a God who makes you sick to prove a point?
Jean, here's the reason I think TWI's doctrine regarding satan and sickness can be harmful to one who is sick, if you are interested.
1. As TWI taught it (at least in the later years) the implication is if you became sick it was because you were out of fellowship with God. It was your fault, you did something wrong. I cannot even begin to describe the condemnation one felt when a child was ill!
2. If you leave out the blame of the individual the implication is, Satan is more powerful than God, i.e. Satan can make you ill, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
I am interested, thank you for your post. I agrre with your first point. The cruelty manifested by at least some in TWI was horrendous. We have three children who have learning disabilities to one degree or another and our last TC and BC took the attitude that their problems were directly due to my failures as a believer and recommended to John that he should divorce me and seek sole custody of the children if he wanted to have any hope for them at all. It was somewhat of a relief to have a doctor soon afterward who sent us to a genetics counselor who discovered a rare genetics problem (rare for the general population but for myself and John meant our chances of having a child with certain conditions was 50%).
I am not sure that leaving out the blame of the individual means that Satan is more powerful than God, but rather that since Satan is referred to as the god of this world, he has the ability to make someone sick, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.
2 Cor 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
Rev 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.
This is an excellent point as well Jean. Fear, seldom makes one truly appreciative of God. Worshipping a god because you fear him/it is not exactly my idea of love. And I'm not so sure it really is an indication of respect.
Looking at the context of this passage, the biggest things that hit me are conflict resolution, being a help and not a hindrance to another, and helping each other solve problems.
Ephesians 4:25-32 NIV
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Thought I'd post some interesting excerpts from The Holman New Testament Commentary: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians by Max Anders, page 156, Ephesians 4:29, 30:
"…Words of mature Christians seek to help the listener, not harm him…We are not saying that you can never say anything negative. Sometimes we are forced to talk about unpleasant things, particularly in solving problems in which people are involved. Teachers, ministers, employers, coaches, lawyers, police, and so on, all find it necessary to tell the truth about someone even if it is unpleasant. Whether you are solving a problem or not, you avoid speaking unwholesome words. Your intent is to build up, not tear down, to unify, not divide…"
End of excerpts
I was thinking how critical this is any time someone is going through a crisis, wading through issues of a problem…something we've all experienced leaving TWI…I think what ministers a lot of grace is simple counsel from someone who has no other agenda than helping to solve a problem. It's about working together toward a realistic picture of what's going on, identifying key issues, and sorting out the good, the bad and the ugly…I don't come to Grease Spot to win people to my way of thinking. I say what I say in hope that it inspires someone to do their best thinking.
I was thinking how critical this is any time someone is going through a crisis, wading through issues of a problem…something we've all experienced leaving TWI…I think what ministers a lot of grace is simple counsel from someone who has no other agenda than helping to solve a problem. It's about working together toward a realistic picture of what's going on, identifying key issues, and sorting out the good, the bad and the ugly…I don't come to Grease Spot to win people to my way of thinking. I say what I say in hope that it inspires someone to do their best thinking.
I'll second that T-Bone. Applies to all sorts of things and situations I believe.
I am reminded of a passage in the book 'Competent to Counsel' wherein a gentleman is sitting on a tack. A Freudian therepist comes along, and comments, 'You have a pain in your anal region. This must be because of your relationship with your mother. Tell me all about your childhood'. The gentleman does but feels no relief. Other counselors come by and offer other advice based on which school of psychiatry they studied, but the person still experiences no relief. Finally a neuthetic counselor surveys the situation and says: 'You're sitting on a tack. Get up, and let's discuss ways you can avoid sitting on a tack in the future.' I mention this passage because you could say that the neuthetic counselor confessed a negative, but the negative he confessed was actually at the root of the gentleman's problem and needed to be dealt with before he could obtain relief. How many times aren't we sitting on a spiritual tack that needs to be removed in order for us to obtain spiritual relief.
I am interested, thank you for your post. I agrre with your first point. The cruelty manifested by at least some in TWI was horrendous. We have three children who have learning disabilities to one degree or another and our last TC and BC took the attitude that their problems were directly due to my failures as a believer and recommended to John that he should divorce me and seek sole custody of the children if he wanted to have any hope for them at all. It was somewhat of a relief to have a doctor soon afterward who sent us to a genetics counselor who discovered a rare genetics problem (rare for the general population but for myself and John meant our chances of having a child with certain conditions was 50%).
I am not sure that leaving out the blame of the individual means that Satan is more powerful than God, but rather that since Satan is referred to as the god of this world, he has the ability to make someone sick, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.
Jean, I am sorry for what you went through with your chilren and TWI, but very happy that your husband was strong enough to stand against them and keep his family together. I could tell similar horror stories, but it is too beautiful a morning for that today. :)
I do get what you are saying about blaming God and the fear thing. I don't know where I first learned such teachings, as my parents were not at all religious, but I do remember thinking that way, even as a young child. Something would go wrong and I would think God was punishing me for something I had done, or something I failed to do.
I don't view it that way anymore. Generally now, when I am faced with adversity, I see it as a test (wrong word, but I can't think of the right one) of my strength and faith. Not that God is testing me, but that God is giving me an opportunity to see for myself what he already knows - that I can overcome, that I am strong, etc.
I don't fear God. I don't think God punishes us. It rains on the just and unjust, so it can't simply be about punishment. I look at the Jewish people, a people who has faced adversity and persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years. Many converted to other religions under fear of death. Many gave up on God althogether. Many have been murdered simply for being Jewish. Yet, there still remains a strong number of people, who as a people have faced the adversity and come through it with strength and faith. I think it is the same for individuals as well.
And yes, I get angry at God sometimes. But the beauty of leaving behind the doctrines of TWI is that I can allow myself to get angry at God without condemning myself. I can yell at Him and question Him, I can even rebel against Him as a teen rebells against his/her parents at times. And in the end I can come back to Him too. I can accept, even when I don't understand. Just as a child ultimately accepts from his/her parents what he/she doesn't understand.
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Abigail
I do not try to pursuade people to abandon their faith. I do try to share things that might add to their perspective or change their perspective, if they find it helpful.
One of the things that occured to me over the years of posting here is that if you pull the rug out from under someone before they are ready, you can do them harm.
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Bramble
How could you know that what you say will cause someone to abandon their faith? That seems to imply having a lot of power over someone else. I could see it working with a child or young person who looked up to you, though.
If they --an adult--abandon it, maybe it wasn't really theirs to begin with. Maybe there were things going on in their hearts and minds you weren't privy to.
I think ex ways can tell when someone is trying to 'witness the truth ' to them to try to change their beliefs somehow. It was a huge part of our Way lifestyle, and a habit pattern for many.
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Larry N Moore
The question is hypothetical. "If you knew . . . ." It doesn't matter how you would know.
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likeaneagle
If they felt they no longer had faith in thier god would be one thing..if they were struggling thru a difficult time I would minister to the need maybe not thier God..but the bigger question..where is the struggle..
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another spot
Is there another way of understanding that verse which would justify speaking words which can potentially cause someone to abandon their faith?—Larry
Not that I know of.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Twi dished out enough harm in this category, why would I want to add to it? But that’s me. My own ethics prevent me from saying or doing anything harmful or potentially harmful to others in any category. I do this out of self love as much as love to others, so I don’t have to deal with guilt. Like you though, I’ve been known not to follow it all the time… Others have to make their own decisions.
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T-Bone
I'm not sure if this would go with what you're talking about but I would be concerned with what may cause another to stumble. Which could be some blatant sin in my life or me simply flaunting my freedom [in a non-moral issue] and compelling a brother to do the same – against their own conscience [for some reason they believe violating a particular non-moral issue is sin – as talked about in Romans 14].
Matthew 18:5-9 NIV
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Romans 14:13-23 NIV
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
I Corinthians 10:31-33 NIV
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
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Bramble
In TWI 'compelling' people was a way of life, though as time went on it became more of a caste system as to who could compel whom. But I remember the type of pressure we would put on our peers to go to the Rock etc, back in the good old days.
Outside of TWI I have seen very little of it. Maybe I just avoid those types without thinking about it much. I do have a co worker who seems very needy and controlling, I try to be nice but not get tied up in her pouting wierd stuff.
Since I don't believe anyone must be one religion or another, I don't feel any need to hide thoughts or actions to keep some one else's faith unshaken. I think when people can know in themselves that yes, there are other thoughts, beliefs and practices in this matter, but this is my path, they are in a good place. I think that is much better than isolation from other thoughts etc, as we had in TWI. Like minded we were, but the price was high.
But I don't think we all have to be like minded, just in case someone gets confused in their doctrine. They are an adult, let them sort it through.
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templelady
My feeling is that if I just express what I feel about my faith, if I share what my faith means to me and the joy and comfort it has brought to me , simply, honestly, and clearly, whatever happens after that is out of my hands.
By sharing my faith, I don't mean in an accusitory or condemnatory way. I mean conveying the joy and happiness that the Holy Ghost has brought to my life, the peace that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father imbues my life with.
It is the job iof God to judge, It is our job to uplift , support and encourage. Reproof, correction and confrontation are not a normal part of the job--if and when they become necessary Heavenly Father will give us a clear sign.
I do know what you mean about turning someone away from the Lord but if you keep your mesage loving and simple, and they turn away--it probably has notheing to do with the message per se but their own feelings of guilt. While inducing guilt shouild not be a goal it often happens that guilt is induced as the "seeds are sown". Seeds of faith, even on rocky soil, can sometimes find a patch of earth to grow in. I would rather have sown a seed that has the potential of taking root an year or ten years down the road than to never have sown any "seed" at all
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Larry N Moore
I think it fits in quite nicely with what I'm talking about.
I didn't start this topic to "argue" with anyone but rather to read the thoughts of others on the subject. Whatever comes to mind to another is "fitting" as far as I'm concerned. I may add a comment from time to time but for now I'm more interested in reading and giving thought to what others say. And I thank you all for your responses.
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Jeaniam
I find this topic interesting because this morning I was having a conversation with a believer (non TWI) who is having some health issues, and during this conversation I pointed out to her that God doesn't want her to be sick. She is of the opinion that God's plan includes her illness and He must have a purpose for it. I forbore getting into a long discussion with her on the subject of the adversary and who makes you sick, etc. I guess it seems to me that giving some people information that they're not ready for doesn't 'minister grace unto the hearer', and could actually be harmful.
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Abigail
Jean, here's the reason I think TWI's doctrine regarding satan and sickness can be harmful to one who is sick, if you are interested.
1. As TWI taught it (at least in the later years) the implication is if you became sick it was because you were out of fellowship with God. It was your fault, you did something wrong. I cannot even begin to describe the condemnation one felt when a child was ill!
2. If you leave out the blame of the individual the implication is, Satan is more powerful than God, i.e. Satan can make you ill, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
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Larry N Moore
Good example Jean! I can recall many of my own experiences mirroring what you have pointed out here. It's unfortunate that someone would prefer to believe God has a purpose for their sickness instead of thinking that if they weren't sick it would make it possible for them to do so much more for the Lord. Besides that -- it's not really a good witness of God's benevolence to a non-believer. Why would a non-believer want to accept a God who makes you sick to prove a point?
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Jeaniam
I am interested, thank you for your post. I agrre with your first point. The cruelty manifested by at least some in TWI was horrendous. We have three children who have learning disabilities to one degree or another and our last TC and BC took the attitude that their problems were directly due to my failures as a believer and recommended to John that he should divorce me and seek sole custody of the children if he wanted to have any hope for them at all. It was somewhat of a relief to have a doctor soon afterward who sent us to a genetics counselor who discovered a rare genetics problem (rare for the general population but for myself and John meant our chances of having a child with certain conditions was 50%).
I am not sure that leaving out the blame of the individual means that Satan is more powerful than God, but rather that since Satan is referred to as the god of this world, he has the ability to make someone sick, even though God's will is for you to be healthy.
Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.
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cman
Who says satan is the god of this world?
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Larry N Moore
2 Cor 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
Rev 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
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cman
Those don't say satan is the god of this world.
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Larry N Moore
Cman, if you insist on derailing this thread -- have at it. I will not assist you in your agenda.
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cman
Well...if you are going to minister grace to the hearers,
you should get an idea of what that grace is.
Of which 2 Corinthians is a part of.
One can be told things and not see it,
is that not being blinded?
And even for their good and certainly grace.
There is a season for everything, and it will come ministering grace to the hearers.
I am very much on the subject of this thread and a key ingredient of it.
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Larry N Moore
This is an excellent point as well Jean. Fear, seldom makes one truly appreciative of God. Worshipping a god because you fear him/it is not exactly my idea of love. And I'm not so sure it really is an indication of respect.
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T-Bone
Looking at the context of this passage, the biggest things that hit me are conflict resolution, being a help and not a hindrance to another, and helping each other solve problems.
Ephesians 4:25-32 NIV
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Thought I'd post some interesting excerpts from The Holman New Testament Commentary: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians by Max Anders, page 156, Ephesians 4:29, 30:
"…Words of mature Christians seek to help the listener, not harm him…We are not saying that you can never say anything negative. Sometimes we are forced to talk about unpleasant things, particularly in solving problems in which people are involved. Teachers, ministers, employers, coaches, lawyers, police, and so on, all find it necessary to tell the truth about someone even if it is unpleasant. Whether you are solving a problem or not, you avoid speaking unwholesome words. Your intent is to build up, not tear down, to unify, not divide…"
End of excerpts
I was thinking how critical this is any time someone is going through a crisis, wading through issues of a problem…something we've all experienced leaving TWI…I think what ministers a lot of grace is simple counsel from someone who has no other agenda than helping to solve a problem. It's about working together toward a realistic picture of what's going on, identifying key issues, and sorting out the good, the bad and the ugly…I don't come to Grease Spot to win people to my way of thinking. I say what I say in hope that it inspires someone to do their best thinking.
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cman
I'll second that T-Bone. Applies to all sorts of things and situations I believe.
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Jeaniam
I am reminded of a passage in the book 'Competent to Counsel' wherein a gentleman is sitting on a tack. A Freudian therepist comes along, and comments, 'You have a pain in your anal region. This must be because of your relationship with your mother. Tell me all about your childhood'. The gentleman does but feels no relief. Other counselors come by and offer other advice based on which school of psychiatry they studied, but the person still experiences no relief. Finally a neuthetic counselor surveys the situation and says: 'You're sitting on a tack. Get up, and let's discuss ways you can avoid sitting on a tack in the future.' I mention this passage because you could say that the neuthetic counselor confessed a negative, but the negative he confessed was actually at the root of the gentleman's problem and needed to be dealt with before he could obtain relief. How many times aren't we sitting on a spiritual tack that needs to be removed in order for us to obtain spiritual relief.
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T-Bone
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Abigail
Jean, I am sorry for what you went through with your chilren and TWI, but very happy that your husband was strong enough to stand against them and keep his family together. I could tell similar horror stories, but it is too beautiful a morning for that today. :)
I do get what you are saying about blaming God and the fear thing. I don't know where I first learned such teachings, as my parents were not at all religious, but I do remember thinking that way, even as a young child. Something would go wrong and I would think God was punishing me for something I had done, or something I failed to do.
I don't view it that way anymore. Generally now, when I am faced with adversity, I see it as a test (wrong word, but I can't think of the right one) of my strength and faith. Not that God is testing me, but that God is giving me an opportunity to see for myself what he already knows - that I can overcome, that I am strong, etc.
I don't fear God. I don't think God punishes us. It rains on the just and unjust, so it can't simply be about punishment. I look at the Jewish people, a people who has faced adversity and persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years. Many converted to other religions under fear of death. Many gave up on God althogether. Many have been murdered simply for being Jewish. Yet, there still remains a strong number of people, who as a people have faced the adversity and come through it with strength and faith. I think it is the same for individuals as well.
And yes, I get angry at God sometimes. But the beauty of leaving behind the doctrines of TWI is that I can allow myself to get angry at God without condemning myself. I can yell at Him and question Him, I can even rebel against Him as a teen rebells against his/her parents at times. And in the end I can come back to Him too. I can accept, even when I don't understand. Just as a child ultimately accepts from his/her parents what he/she doesn't understand.
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