Yes Oldiesman it is my choice to keep a confidence given to me. My point is fairly clear.
It's ok to communicate an incident without mentioning names. Sorry you don't get that. Actually, your exact point isn't all that clear to me since i am unaware of the facts of the situation. It'd be foolish for me to automatically agree or disagree with your point about these events you speak, without some knowledge of the specific facts.
No it is the same subject just a different aspect of it. I was not at all refering to us being heartless only spineless.
Who is "us"?
Here, do you assume that all twi participants were / are spineless?
It's ok to communicate an incident without mentioning names. Sorry you don't get that. Actually, your exact point isn't all that clear to me since i am unaware of the facts of the situation. It'd be foolish for me to automatically agree or disagree with your point about these events you speak, without some knowledge of the specific facts.
Who is "us"?
Here, do you assume that all twi participants were / are spineless?
That is your choice and no I do not. There are lots of "examples" posted here that give you "facts" if you want them. I will not break a confidence for you or anyone else. Sorry if that does not compute.
I do not expect anyone to agree or disagree with me on anything that I say. I do not even expect a response. I thought that I would share with the board exactly what I shared with someone else privately. That's all. Respond or don't. If it touches you somehow then ok...if it doesn't ok.
And if my point is not clear to you then I'm ok with that, you should be too.
Some synonyms for “backbone” according to the thesaurus in Word: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, and self-discipline.
I thought these were nifty. Thinking about twi, we never would have gotten through it in one piece without some or all of the above. It takes all that just to deal with the spiritual abuse day after day. It also takes all of it to put oneself back together again afterward. Then the day arrives when the confusion is kinda cleared up, and it's possible to stand up and speak up without tons of doubts. Rediscovering one's backbone...
And maybe in the process we discover we were worthwhile all along.
Great post ASpot! You are absolutely correct! I stand corrected. It did take tons of backbone to stay "committed" in the ministry, at least for me it did and obviously many others as well. So "rediscovering" is a better word in this instance. Yes many had to rediscover their backbone and some still have yet to do so.
Ex10- After rereading your post, ASpot is correct, it does take a lot of personal sense of self to be able to love so unconditionally I think that my original assessment of love being a different aspect was incorrect. It takes great love to stand in the gap for people and it takes great love just to hold them when they hurt. My apologies.
Reading some of these threads I have seen several who still use the ministry to prop themselves up. Those that cannot stand on an independant opinion. Those that need their opinion to be prewritten in some class or out of the mouth of some false mog. People who are afraid to say, "Oops, I made a mistake." (FOS ) Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me seeing things again...flashbacks...? :unsure:
There are lots of "examples" posted here that give you "facts" if you want them.
Actually there isn't. There are lots of opinions, but I read only one actual incident, from another spot, which I agree with but doesn't even seem to involve twi.
Reading some of these threads I have seen several who still use the ministry to prop themselves up. Those that cannot stand on an independant opinion. Those that need their opinion to be prewritten in some class or out of the mouth of some false mog. People who are afraid to say, "Oops, I made a mistake." (FOS ) Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me seeing things again...flashbacks...? :unsure:
If you are referring to my post here I hope you can explain it to me... I am just wondering??? I greatly respect your imput and I have learned a lot from You!!!! You are a very dear and admired friend to me!!!!!!
Some of the things that have caused us great and excruciating pains have often enlightened us to the point that when we are able to find our ways through them; Often, in the end of it all great lessons remain.
I liken the component parts of building a healthy backbone to the putting together of the puzzle parts of ourselves that we we gift to one another here!
Absolutely true statement. This why I don't forget my past like so many have said to do in threads on this site. To entirely forget could cause me to forget the lesson that resulted from the incident. For instance I have mostly forgotten the actual pain that a broken back give a person, but I have not forgotten that the pain was debilitating or what caused the broken back in the first place. Hence the lesson was not forgotten because I remember enough of my past. This is how I try to assimilate all of my "painful" experiences.
Certainly many folks here help each other to heal. And because of this the pieces of the puzzle continue to come together.
In terms of behavior, I think you were right the first time, Eyes. I think in terms of character though, that backbone was underneath the passivity and subservience, keeping us going. Recovery is sort of like pealing away the layers of an onion (the false doctrines and adaptive behaviors) and seeing there was a diamond at the core of it. The adaptive behaviors weren’t so great, but that doesn’t mean WE weren’t.
This really is a great thread, and it is prompting me to really think about this stuff.
Oldiesman, my incident relates to twi recovery. I was trying to relate something specific to help make Eyes’ point more clear, for the benefit of others. And, it’s taken me several posts to get very clear about it myself…this thread is sort of a work in progress. Maybe things will clear up for you after awhile. If you experienced the twi phase of having to get permission to move a muscle, and understand that as passivity as a result of abnormal control, then perhaps you can understand there is a process to becoming a “normal” adult again. By that I mean regaining the confidence to make your own choices. Not everyone experienced the same things in twi or even reacted to it in the same way, so I can understand it can be hard to understand experiences that are not your own.
Another spot, I had no difficulty understanding your incident. Thanks for sharing.
I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices.
This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.
The area that I have had to grow a backbone in is saying "no" to friends and afamily who neeed help in some way or another.
I can't blame this all on TWI -- my mother was really good at inducing guilt trips as were the husbands. --I had it fairly well drilled in my head by the time TWI came along that my only use was if I did what others wanted.
I wont go into how much actual money, peace of mind, and just general living conditions this attitude has cost over the years.
Well I'm getting better--
Just recently I had a friend call and ask If I could pay for the "significant others" plane ticket here to Alaska as they wanted to get back together. They would of course reimburse me. Knowing the character of the "other" I was none too sure that I would ever see any money from that direction plus, given the "games" that had been played previously by "other", my feeling was that if "other" really wanted to be together witn my friend "other" would find their own ticket and pay for same.
So I said,"no" , and I gently explained my reasons The 'other" suddenly got a plane ticket all by their lonesome. Not only did I not lose a friend-when events played out much as I feared they would my friend expressed their gratitude that I had been loving and firm throughout the situation.
Having a backbone does not translate into being mean, or rude. It means knowing what you believe, and firmly but kindly not wavering from that point.
There is a difference between being passive, aggressive, and assertive. The lines between them can be fine. Passive is saying “yes” when you want to say “no.” Aggressive is saying “no” in an abusive manner. Assertive is having a strong enough sense of self and the confidence to just say “no.” An adamant “no” is OK when the need arises.
I think assertive is a synonym for “backbone.” I also think that passive or aggressive by nature excludes genuine kindness, mercy, grace, and even the ability to help others. Assertiveness or backbone is having enough courage of your convictions to help yourself and others. It is honest. Passivity/spineless isn’t honest.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were. –ex10
I think it takes a strong sense of self and backbone/assertiveness to genuinely do this.
There is one last response - passive aggression. Here's one example of passive aggressive behavior:
Joe : Hey Sam! Will you help me move on Saturday?
Sam : Call me on Saturday and I'll come over. (NOTE - No "Yes" or "No" was given in response.)
When Saturday finally arrives, Sam's not home to receive any calls and his cell directs all calls to voicemail. He never said he wouldn't help. He can look Joe in the eye and say that he never got a call. What he won't say is that he made sure that he couldn't get a call. He most likely didn't want to help, but he also didn't want to appear like he was unwilling - so he was dishonest.
Passive-aggressive behaviour has other ways of showing up. I've been privy to a lot of it in my life. It's always cowardly and it always sux.
In terms of behavior, I think you were right the first time, Eyes. I think in terms of character though, that backbone was underneath the passivity and subservience, keeping us going. Recovery is sort of like pealing away the layers of an onion (the false doctrines and adaptive behaviors) and seeing there was a diamond at the core of it. The adaptive behaviors weren’t so great, but that doesn’t mean WE weren’t.
Great distinction Spot! It's great to see, in my life, now that I have severed the cord that once linked me to false doctrine and in many ways also to my own pain, guilt and shame, I can look in the mirror again and see a person that is more than a shell. Who I chose to be and ultimately where I chose to go depends only on me. As Dooj was saying I can blame nobody but ME from here on out if I get hurt. My eyes really have been opened (hence the name) and I can see deception, falseness, lies and manipulation as I am certain many of you can.
Our little stint in the Way in many ways has allowed us to see these subtle things. Most others that did not have twi in their background do not see them as easily until after the fact. We are of course not perfect, but it was an experience that most of us can say we learned that little bit of perception from. For example if we were manipulated then we see when someone is trying to manipulate us now more readily. Something like that.
Ahh...it is good to see that onion again...can I get a parfait?
I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices.
This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.--Oldiesman
Well that’s certainly a far healthier attitude and perspective than I had. For me, it was do this, do that, or else be a grease spot…and no where else to go. That’s sort of the enigma of it. Yes on the one hand these were my final decisions, but since I believed twi was the only place to be, they were sort of under duress. My own belief system held me in jail. Weird, huh? Like you, I do in fact accept responsibility for my decisions, including not thinking for myself. I also agree with you that submitting to others to grow and learn is a good thing in and of itself.
I have a question for you, and if you want to answer, I assume you got exposed to the idea twi was the “true household” and walking away made you a “copout” not only to twi but to God. How did you process that in your own mind? I am asking so I can step into your shoes and maybe you can also step into mine. When we’re done, maybe we both learn something and become better people for it. Let’s cross this bridge, whatcha think?
Templelady: Good for you. I can sure identify with your post. Been there, done that. Btw congrats on your healing!!!! Fantastic news!!!
Our little stint in the Way in many ways has allowed us to see these subtle things. Most others that did not have twi in their background do not see them as easily until after the fact. We are of course not perfect, but it was an experience that most of us can say we learned that little bit of perception from. For example if we were manipulated then we see when someone is trying to manipulate us now more readily. Something like that.
Ahh...it is good to see that onion again...can I get a parfait? --Eyes
Only if you share…I’m going to be assertive with backbone. I want the part with the cherry on top. Ha! The rest of your post, yep. I agree.
Isn’t Grease Spot great? It’s the people here that make that way…You have a thought. I have a thought. Together we make some sense of things. A Borg of a different kind...
Well that’s certainly a far healthier attitude and perspective than I had. For me, it was do this, do that ...
God loves a cheerful giver, so if you weren't cheerful about giving of your time, your money, you life, etc., it was a waste of time. And I believe VP wanted the same. I believe his heart was that he didn't want folks hanging around who didn't want to be there.
I have a question for you, and if you want to answer, I assume you got exposed to the idea twi was the “true household” and walking away made you a “copout” not only to twi but to God. How did you process that in your own mind?
I believed it was Christ in me, the hope of Glory. I believed in my sonship rights. I believed all the manifestations, that I was "the apple of His eye". I knew that God wanted me to fellowship and that was his primary will, and when I stepped out of that will, I still believed that God loved me and protected me despite my disobedience. I also believed the part in PFAL about "fear motivation" and didn't allow anyone to control me through fear, more or less.
During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.
how can you relinquish your will for a purpose, oldies ?
where i'm coming from is such a difficult place to explain. being on the motorcoach with the mog.... i just don't see it.... it certainly wasn't a challenge or good learning.... and there was a lot wrong with it....
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Eyesopen
I've been thinking, strange as is may seem this does happen upon occassion. :blink: So what I've been thinking about was our recovery as believers from the screwed up stuff that we assimilated in TW
oldiesman
It's ok to communicate an incident without mentioning names. Sorry you don't get that. Actually, your exact point isn't all that clear to me since i am unaware of the facts of the situation. It'd be foolish for me to automatically agree or disagree with your point about these events you speak, without some knowledge of the specific facts.
Who is "us"?
Here, do you assume that all twi participants were / are spineless?
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Eyesopen
That is your choice and no I do not. There are lots of "examples" posted here that give you "facts" if you want them. I will not break a confidence for you or anyone else. Sorry if that does not compute.
I do not expect anyone to agree or disagree with me on anything that I say. I do not even expect a response. I thought that I would share with the board exactly what I shared with someone else privately. That's all. Respond or don't. If it touches you somehow then ok...if it doesn't ok.
And if my point is not clear to you then I'm ok with that, you should be too.
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Eyesopen
Great post ASpot! You are absolutely correct! I stand corrected. It did take tons of backbone to stay "committed" in the ministry, at least for me it did and obviously many others as well. So "rediscovering" is a better word in this instance. Yes many had to rediscover their backbone and some still have yet to do so.
Ex10- After rereading your post, ASpot is correct, it does take a lot of personal sense of self to be able to love so unconditionally I think that my original assessment of love being a different aspect was incorrect. It takes great love to stand in the gap for people and it takes great love just to hold them when they hurt. My apologies.
Reading some of these threads I have seen several who still use the ministry to prop themselves up. Those that cannot stand on an independant opinion. Those that need their opinion to be prewritten in some class or out of the mouth of some false mog. People who are afraid to say, "Oops, I made a mistake." (FOS
) Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me seeing things again...flashbacks...? :unsure:
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oldiesman
Actually there isn't. There are lots of opinions, but I read only one actual incident, from another spot, which I agree with but doesn't even seem to involve twi.
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RainbowsGirl
If you are referring to my post here I hope you can explain it to me... I am just wondering??? I greatly respect your imput and I have learned a lot from You!!!! You are a very dear and admired friend to me!!!!!!
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Eyesopen
Where did I ever say that the incidents involved TWI?
Not refering to this thread let alone your post.
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RainbowsGirl
Sorry I missed a piece! I will reread!
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oldiesman
You didn't say. Did I say your incidents did?
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Eyesopen
Yes, you did.
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oldiesman
Where? When? The incident I spoke about was the one another spot communicated.
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Eyesopen
Absolutely true statement. This why I don't forget my past like so many have said to do in threads on this site. To entirely forget could cause me to forget the lesson that resulted from the incident. For instance I have mostly forgotten the actual pain that a broken back give a person, but I have not forgotten that the pain was debilitating or what caused the broken back in the first place. Hence the lesson was not forgotten because I remember enough of my past. This is how I try to assimilate all of my "painful" experiences.
Certainly many folks here help each other to heal. And because of this the pieces of the puzzle continue to come together.
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Diamond
Great Thread.
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RainbowsGirl
Great to see You on-line!
I Love You Very much RC!
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Eyesopen
Welcome! Nice to see you again.
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another spot
In terms of behavior, I think you were right the first time, Eyes. I think in terms of character though, that backbone was underneath the passivity and subservience, keeping us going. Recovery is sort of like pealing away the layers of an onion (the false doctrines and adaptive behaviors) and seeing there was a diamond at the core of it. The adaptive behaviors weren’t so great, but that doesn’t mean WE weren’t.
This really is a great thread, and it is prompting me to really think about this stuff.
Oldiesman, my incident relates to twi recovery. I was trying to relate something specific to help make Eyes’ point more clear, for the benefit of others. And, it’s taken me several posts to get very clear about it myself…this thread is sort of a work in progress. Maybe things will clear up for you after awhile. If you experienced the twi phase of having to get permission to move a muscle, and understand that as passivity as a result of abnormal control, then perhaps you can understand there is a process to becoming a “normal” adult again. By that I mean regaining the confidence to make your own choices. Not everyone experienced the same things in twi or even reacted to it in the same way, so I can understand it can be hard to understand experiences that are not your own.
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oldiesman
Another spot, I had no difficulty understanding your incident. Thanks for sharing.
I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices.
This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.
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templelady
The area that I have had to grow a backbone in is saying "no" to friends and afamily who neeed help in some way or another.
I can't blame this all on TWI -- my mother was really good at inducing guilt trips as were the husbands. --I had it fairly well drilled in my head by the time TWI came along that my only use was if I did what others wanted.
I wont go into how much actual money, peace of mind, and just general living conditions this attitude has cost over the years.
Well I'm getting better--
Just recently I had a friend call and ask If I could pay for the "significant others" plane ticket here to Alaska as they wanted to get back together. They would of course reimburse me. Knowing the character of the "other" I was none too sure that I would ever see any money from that direction plus, given the "games" that had been played previously by "other", my feeling was that if "other" really wanted to be together witn my friend "other" would find their own ticket and pay for same.
So I said,"no" , and I gently explained my reasons The 'other" suddenly got a plane ticket all by their lonesome. Not only did I not lose a friend-when events played out much as I feared they would my friend expressed their gratitude that I had been loving and firm throughout the situation.
Having a backbone does not translate into being mean, or rude. It means knowing what you believe, and firmly but kindly not wavering from that point.
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Eyesopen
Excellent synopsis! And a good viewpoint for anyone to take.
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doojable
There is one last response - passive aggression. Here's one example of passive aggressive behavior:
Joe : Hey Sam! Will you help me move on Saturday?
Sam : Call me on Saturday and I'll come over. (NOTE - No "Yes" or "No" was given in response.)
When Saturday finally arrives, Sam's not home to receive any calls and his cell directs all calls to voicemail. He never said he wouldn't help. He can look Joe in the eye and say that he never got a call. What he won't say is that he made sure that he couldn't get a call. He most likely didn't want to help, but he also didn't want to appear like he was unwilling - so he was dishonest.
Passive-aggressive behaviour has other ways of showing up. I've been privy to a lot of it in my life. It's always cowardly and it always sux.
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Eyesopen
Great distinction Spot! It's great to see, in my life, now that I have severed the cord that once linked me to false doctrine and in many ways also to my own pain, guilt and shame, I can look in the mirror again and see a person that is more than a shell. Who I chose to be and ultimately where I chose to go depends only on me. As Dooj was saying I can blame nobody but ME from here on out if I get hurt. My eyes really have been opened (hence the name) and I can see deception, falseness, lies and manipulation as I am certain many of you can.
Our little stint in the Way in many ways has allowed us to see these subtle things. Most others that did not have twi in their background do not see them as easily until after the fact. We are of course not perfect, but it was an experience that most of us can say we learned that little bit of perception from. For example if we were manipulated then we see when someone is trying to manipulate us now more readily. Something like that.
Ahh...it is good to see that onion again...can I get a parfait?
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another spot
I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices.
This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.--Oldiesman
Well that’s certainly a far healthier attitude and perspective than I had. For me, it was do this, do that, or else be a grease spot…and no where else to go. That’s sort of the enigma of it. Yes on the one hand these were my final decisions, but since I believed twi was the only place to be, they were sort of under duress. My own belief system held me in jail. Weird, huh? Like you, I do in fact accept responsibility for my decisions, including not thinking for myself. I also agree with you that submitting to others to grow and learn is a good thing in and of itself.
I have a question for you, and if you want to answer, I assume you got exposed to the idea twi was the “true household” and walking away made you a “copout” not only to twi but to God. How did you process that in your own mind? I am asking so I can step into your shoes and maybe you can also step into mine. When we’re done, maybe we both learn something and become better people for it. Let’s cross this bridge, whatcha think?
Templelady: Good for you. I can sure identify with your post. Been there, done that. Btw congrats on your healing!!!! Fantastic news!!!
Our little stint in the Way in many ways has allowed us to see these subtle things. Most others that did not have twi in their background do not see them as easily until after the fact. We are of course not perfect, but it was an experience that most of us can say we learned that little bit of perception from. For example if we were manipulated then we see when someone is trying to manipulate us now more readily. Something like that.
Ahh...it is good to see that onion again...can I get a parfait? --Eyes
Only if you share…I’m going to be assertive with backbone. I want the part with the cherry on top. Ha! The rest of your post, yep. I agree.
Isn’t Grease Spot great? It’s the people here that make that way…You have a thought. I have a thought. Together we make some sense of things. A Borg of a different kind...
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oldiesman
God loves a cheerful giver, so if you weren't cheerful about giving of your time, your money, you life, etc., it was a waste of time. And I believe VP wanted the same. I believe his heart was that he didn't want folks hanging around who didn't want to be there.
I believed it was Christ in me, the hope of Glory. I believed in my sonship rights. I believed all the manifestations, that I was "the apple of His eye". I knew that God wanted me to fellowship and that was his primary will, and when I stepped out of that will, I still believed that God loved me and protected me despite my disobedience. I also believed the part in PFAL about "fear motivation" and didn't allow anyone to control me through fear, more or less.
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rascal
Hmmm
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excathedra
how can you relinquish your will for a purpose, oldies ?
where i'm coming from is such a difficult place to explain. being on the motorcoach with the mog.... i just don't see it.... it certainly wasn't a challenge or good learning.... and there was a lot wrong with it....
anyway have a good weekend
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