So often when we were "in" we had simulated backbones. Backbones that depended upon the organization to remain rigid. Once that organization either abandoned us or spurned us we suddenly became jelly fish. Because we believed the bill of goods that they sold us. "We were nothing without them."
Calculating and cunning, twi fostered a sub-culture of....1) manipulation and 2) dependency.
Through subtle manipulation, specifically the mog-doctrine....we were led to believe in a pyramid-like structure where the mog and his classess had ALL the answers. And, from day one, we were told to sit in our chairs and stay quiet........they will tell us what we need to know.
In this cultish environment, a child-like dependency was common and, indeed, encouraged. Grown adults were treated like children, singing children songs, and disregarding adult decisions (i.e. career choices, investments, home purchases, community involvement, etc). Kinda like a pavlov experiment, we salivated everytime the bell would ring (and another class would run).
No longer dependent on twi....................the ADULT develops self-initiative and moves forward.
Recenty several "events" have taken place that I have been privy to and in each event the person involved had stood up to a person that they would never have thought of asserting themselves to even a week prior. They had suddenly realized that yes indeed they do have a backbone or had grown one quite recently.
Without mentioning names, are you able to explain the details of these events?
Great thoughts Eyes. I have stunned myself and my family with sudden streaks of stubborness (aka back bone) and not being intimidated into backing down.
I hadn`t put it together with overcoming the intimidation and learned submission aquired in twi.
As a woman, EVERYBODY knew better, was more spiritual, had higher insight than me. I never had the confidence to back up myself or ideas, always assuming that someone else knew better.
After reading your post, I guess that I will count it as yet another major step in my healing to have the courage to stand by my opinions and ideas (aka bullheadedstubborness) :)
Ham-You are absolutely correct. While in TWI we were often told to deal with something and often, at least for me I didnt agree that something was wrong. Many times "leadership" saw things that didn't exist and would overlook blatent problems. But to be a good little Corps person you did as you were told and went over to someones house to "set them straight".
Today without their influence we can pick our battles and we can act upon our own conscience.
Skyrider-Exactly! To heal we must all grow up....again.
Oldiesman-I dont see any reason to tell those stories as so many people here in GS can give an example of learning that they have grown a real backbone since living in the real world. Rascal does just that in her post.
Rascal-You make a great point about "confidence". The first few times that we use our new found backbone, we look around and see if anyone is going to reprove us or worse slap us down. But that probably isn't going to happen and if someone does disagree then so be it we are no longer expected to agree with something that we dont agree with just to stay in the program. We are free to grow up, we are free to express ourselves and we are free to heal.
Precisely Eyes.... The wierd thing is....I am at peace when I have to make a stand now...you bring to mind the times that I had to stand up to my spouse in a dramatic situation, and even though I was right, that lives were at stake....I was terrified of going against him because of being a woman that lacked virtue....of losing God`s protection...of death for my lack of meekness.
Everybody always knew better than me, even if I did per chance manage to stick by my guns, I was miserable, guilt ridden and consumed with fear.
Precisely Eyes.... The wierd thing is....I am at peace when I have to make a stand now...you bring to mind the times that I had to stand up to my spouse in a dramatic situation, and even though I was right, that lives were at stake....I was terrified of going against him because of being a woman that lacked virtue....of losing God`s protection...of death for my lack of meekness.
Everybody always knew better than me, even if I did per chance manage to stick by my guns, I was miserable, guilt ridden and consumed with fear.
Wow...I`d forgotten...thanks.
You're welcome...I think? Just kidding! It is always good to remember where you came from, because it makes the shining example that your life is now all the brighter!
Self is OK. It is Ok to say I like this, or I don’t. It is OK to say I want to do this, or I don’t. It is OK to have an opinion. It is OK to have an independent thought. It is OK to look at something and say, “That isn’t right for me.” How many years did it take me to get to that point? More than I would have expected.
I had a situation come up about a month ago in my family. My niece had knee surgery. My step brother sent her an email inviting her to his adult web site. He said in the letter she would need permission from her parents to go to it. She is 16. I was quite incensed when I heard about it. Ok, I was livid…The stance of the family was to ignore it in order to get along. I didn’t know which was worse, their attitude or the email. I made it known I would contact him myself if no one else would. If I did it, it would not be diplomatic…
Silence would have two results: (1). Teach my step brother this was OK with the family and (2). Teach my niece she wasn’t important enough to stand up for. I really didn’t care if my position resulted in the family “not getting along.” Not even my sister, my niece’s mother was willing to take a stand. To be quite frank with you, had I not expressed my position and my anger, I doubt anything would have happened unless I did it myself. As it was, my step dad took care of the situation. Two years ago I would have done the same thing, I just wouldn’t have had the confidence to go along with it. At the same time, I don’t advocate anger as a normal mode of operation. It was just necessary in this particular instance to wake my family up in light of their resistance.
Twi was slavery to the eyes of others. That is an understatement. There are so many things involved in recovery, but acquiring a backbone and the self confidence to speak up is a big one. A real big one…huge. And a lot of steps just to get there.
Thanks Eyes for a great thread, and keep digging in that couch!!
That is your choice ... just wanted to try to understand your point better.
Yes Oldiesman it is my choice to keep a confidence given to me. My point is fairly clear. I am sorry that you don't get it.
Self is OK. It is Ok to say I like this, or I don’t. It is OK to say I want to do this, or I don’t. It is OK to have an opinion. It is OK to have an independent thought. It is OK to look at something and say, “That isn’t right for me.” How many years did it take me to get to that point? More than I would have expected.
Twi was slavery to the eyes of others. That is an understatement. There are so many things involved in recovery, but acquiring a backbone and the self confidence to speak up is a big one. A real big one…huge. And a lot of steps just to get there.
Thanks Eyes for a great thread, and keep digging in that couch!!
Oh how right you are! "Self is Ok" I should put it in my tag line!
I'm gonna bounce up and down on it to see what jumps out...change that is!
i'm not saying i've arrived but the journey is not so painful anymore
my neck still hurts
The journey never seems to end but with each step you take forward the pain lessons and strength and confidence grow. I don't think we "arrive" until the Gathering.
Huh? Can anyone tell me what we are really talking about here?
Oh, Eyes , Last December 15th I broke my backbone Ice Climbing and it's still healing up. Can I still count myself as having one?
I broke my back on my interim year out WOW. It healed and my backbone is stronger both litterally and figuratively. So ya you still got one!
I am glad you wrote this topic eyes. I not only read the bible. But I also read the book The I-ching. The tree basic things I learned from it Is when to take part in a fight, when to withdraw from a fight and to stand still and let things happen by themselves.
I'm fairly feisty by nature - but I somehow learned to supress that and be whatever was expected of me. I was a chameleon in many ways.... No -- I didn't blend into the woodwork, but I did learn how to give what was expected.
I feel like this goes hand in hand with not being a victim. I learned who I am and what I really want in life. I figured out that from here on out - no one is to blame but ME.
I think of it the same way I think about a painting. I don't let something leave my easel until I know its the best I can do at that moment in time, because it's MY NAME that gets signed to the bottom. In my life -- not only is it my life, but GOD'S NAME also is written on it - at least would like to be a masterpiece he'd be proud to sign. If I blame someone else then I hand over the controls.
Ok, I confess to being a bit confused by this thread. I understand the concept of standing up for one's self. Get that.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
I'm not talking about being codependent, or an enabler, I just talking about the ole milk of human kindness idea.
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were.
Ok, I confess to being a bit confused by this thread. I understand the concept of standing up for one's self. Get that.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
I'm not talking about being codependent, or an enabler, I just talking about the ole milk of human kindness idea.
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were.
Maybe we are talking about different subjects.
No it is the same subject just a different aspect of it. I was not at all refering to us being heartless only spineless. But sometimes giving help does include standing up for them as ASpot had mentioned. We could talk about the heart thing and human kindness if you like. But that was not the focus of this particular thought of mine.
Growing a backbone! I know how that feels!
I'm fairly feisty by nature - but I somehow learned to supress that and be whatever was expected of me. I was a chameleon in many ways.... No -- I didn't blend into the woodwork, but I did learn how to give what was expected.
I feel like this goes hand in hand with not being a victim. I learned who I am and what I really want in life. I figured out that from here on out - no one is to blame but ME.
I think of it the same way I think about a painting. I don't let something leave my easel until I know its the best I can do at that moment in time, because it's MY NAME that gets signed to the bottom. In my life -- not only is it my life, but GOD'S NAME also is written on it - at least would like to be a masterpiece he'd be proud to sign. If I blame someone else then I hand over the controls.
I refuse to be a victim.
I refust to be spineless.
I totally get what you are saying here Dooj. The analogy of the painting is very vivid for me. But I must admit I find it very hard to imagine you as a Chameleon of any kind.
I would also like to be a masterpiece that He would be proud to sign.
There is a difference between being passive, aggressive, and assertive. The lines between them can be fine. Passive is saying “yes” when you want to say “no.” Aggressive is saying “no” in an abusive manner. Assertive is having a strong enough sense of self and the confidence to just say “no.” An adamant “no” is OK when the need arises.
I think assertive is a synonym for “backbone.” I also think that passive or aggressive by nature excludes genuine kindness, mercy, grace, and even the ability to help others. Assertiveness or backbone is having enough courage of your convictions to help yourself and others. It is honest. Passivity/spineless isn’t honest.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were. –ex10
I think it takes a strong sense of self and backbone/assertiveness to genuinely do this.
Some synonyms for “backbone” according to the thesaurus in Word: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, and self-discipline.
I thought these were nifty. Thinking about twi, we never would have gotten through it in one piece without some or all of the above. It takes all that just to deal with the spiritual abuse day after day. It also takes all of it to put oneself back together again afterward. Then the day arrives when the confusion is kinda cleared up, and it's possible to stand up and speak up without tons of doubts. Rediscovering one's backbone...
And maybe in the process we discover we were worthwhile all along.
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Eyesopen
I've been thinking, strange as is may seem this does happen upon occassion. :blink: So what I've been thinking about was our recovery as believers from the screwed up stuff that we assimilated in TW
Ham
Hmm..
I think for me, the big learning experience was to learn which battles are really worth it.
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skyrider
Calculating and cunning, twi fostered a sub-culture of....1) manipulation and 2) dependency.
Through subtle manipulation, specifically the mog-doctrine....we were led to believe in a pyramid-like structure where the mog and his classess had ALL the answers. And, from day one, we were told to sit in our chairs and stay quiet........they will tell us what we need to know.
In this cultish environment, a child-like dependency was common and, indeed, encouraged. Grown adults were treated like children, singing children songs, and disregarding adult decisions (i.e. career choices, investments, home purchases, community involvement, etc). Kinda like a pavlov experiment, we salivated everytime the bell would ring (and another class would run).
No longer dependent on twi....................the ADULT develops self-initiative and moves forward.
:)
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oldiesman
Without mentioning names, are you able to explain the details of these events?
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rascal
Great thoughts Eyes. I have stunned myself and my family with sudden streaks of stubborness (aka back bone) and not being intimidated into backing down.
I hadn`t put it together with overcoming the intimidation and learned submission aquired in twi.
As a woman, EVERYBODY knew better, was more spiritual, had higher insight than me. I never had the confidence to back up myself or ideas, always assuming that someone else knew better.
After reading your post, I guess that I will count it as yet another major step in my healing to have the courage to stand by my opinions and ideas (aka bullheadedstubborness) :)
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Eyesopen
Ham-You are absolutely correct. While in TWI we were often told to deal with something and often, at least for me I didnt agree that something was wrong. Many times "leadership" saw things that didn't exist and would overlook blatent problems. But to be a good little Corps person you did as you were told and went over to someones house to "set them straight".
Today without their influence we can pick our battles and we can act upon our own conscience.
Skyrider-Exactly! To heal we must all grow up....again.
Oldiesman-I dont see any reason to tell those stories as so many people here in GS can give an example of learning that they have grown a real backbone since living in the real world. Rascal does just that in her post.
Rascal-You make a great point about "confidence". The first few times that we use our new found backbone, we look around and see if anyone is going to reprove us or worse slap us down. But that probably isn't going to happen and if someone does disagree then so be it we are no longer expected to agree with something that we dont agree with just to stay in the program. We are free to grow up, we are free to express ourselves and we are free to heal.
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rascal
Precisely Eyes.... The wierd thing is....I am at peace when I have to make a stand now...you bring to mind the times that I had to stand up to my spouse in a dramatic situation, and even though I was right, that lives were at stake....I was terrified of going against him because of being a woman that lacked virtue....of losing God`s protection...of death for my lack of meekness.
Everybody always knew better than me, even if I did per chance manage to stick by my guns, I was miserable, guilt ridden and consumed with fear.
Wow...I`d forgotten...thanks.
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Eyesopen
You're welcome...I think? Just kidding! It is always good to remember where you came from, because it makes the shining example that your life is now all the brighter!
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oldiesman
That is your choice ... just wanted to try to understand your point better.
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Out There
Huh? Can anyone tell me what we are really talking about here?
Oh, Eyes , Last December 15th I broke my backbone Ice Climbing and it's still healing up. Can I still count myself as having one?
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another spot
Self is OK. It is Ok to say I like this, or I don’t. It is OK to say I want to do this, or I don’t. It is OK to have an opinion. It is OK to have an independent thought. It is OK to look at something and say, “That isn’t right for me.” How many years did it take me to get to that point? More than I would have expected.
I had a situation come up about a month ago in my family. My niece had knee surgery. My step brother sent her an email inviting her to his adult web site. He said in the letter she would need permission from her parents to go to it. She is 16. I was quite incensed when I heard about it. Ok, I was livid…The stance of the family was to ignore it in order to get along. I didn’t know which was worse, their attitude or the email. I made it known I would contact him myself if no one else would. If I did it, it would not be diplomatic…
Silence would have two results: (1). Teach my step brother this was OK with the family and (2). Teach my niece she wasn’t important enough to stand up for. I really didn’t care if my position resulted in the family “not getting along.” Not even my sister, my niece’s mother was willing to take a stand. To be quite frank with you, had I not expressed my position and my anger, I doubt anything would have happened unless I did it myself. As it was, my step dad took care of the situation. Two years ago I would have done the same thing, I just wouldn’t have had the confidence to go along with it. At the same time, I don’t advocate anger as a normal mode of operation. It was just necessary in this particular instance to wake my family up in light of their resistance.
Twi was slavery to the eyes of others. That is an understatement. There are so many things involved in recovery, but acquiring a backbone and the self confidence to speak up is a big one. A real big one…huge. And a lot of steps just to get there.
Thanks Eyes for a great thread, and keep digging in that couch!!
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Suda
Great thread, Eyes. Thanks to all for your input and insight.
Suda
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Eyesopen
Yes Oldiesman it is my choice to keep a confidence given to me. My point is fairly clear. I am sorry that you don't get it.
Oh how right you are! "Self is Ok" I should put it in my tag line!
I'm gonna bounce up and down on it to see what jumps out...change that is!
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excathedra
it has taken me a looooooooong time
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Eyesopen
You are welcome! And thank you for the compliment, it is much appreciated.
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excathedra
i'm not saying i've arrived but the journey is not so painful anymore
my neck still hurts
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Eyesopen
The journey never seems to end but with each step you take forward the pain lessons and strength and confidence grow. I don't think we "arrive" until the Gathering.
I broke my back on my interim year out WOW. It healed and my backbone is stronger both litterally and figuratively. So ya you still got one!
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nyunknown
I am glad you wrote this topic eyes. I not only read the bible. But I also read the book The I-ching. The tree basic things I learned from it Is when to take part in a fight, when to withdraw from a fight and to stand still and let things happen by themselves.
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doojable
Growing a backbone! I know how that feels!
I'm fairly feisty by nature - but I somehow learned to supress that and be whatever was expected of me. I was a chameleon in many ways.... No -- I didn't blend into the woodwork, but I did learn how to give what was expected.
I feel like this goes hand in hand with not being a victim. I learned who I am and what I really want in life. I figured out that from here on out - no one is to blame but ME.
I think of it the same way I think about a painting. I don't let something leave my easel until I know its the best I can do at that moment in time, because it's MY NAME that gets signed to the bottom. In my life -- not only is it my life, but GOD'S NAME also is written on it - at least would like to be a masterpiece he'd be proud to sign.
If I blame someone else then I hand over the controls.
I refuse to be a victim.
I refust to be spineless.
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ex10
Ok, I confess to being a bit confused by this thread. I understand the concept of standing up for one's self. Get that.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
I'm not talking about being codependent, or an enabler, I just talking about the ole milk of human kindness idea.
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were.
Maybe we are talking about different subjects.
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doojable
I think that folks are just learning that they do have the right to say, "No."
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Eyesopen
No it is the same subject just a different aspect of it. I was not at all refering to us being heartless only spineless. But sometimes giving help does include standing up for them as ASpot had mentioned. We could talk about the heart thing and human kindness if you like. But that was not the focus of this particular thought of mine.
I totally get what you are saying here Dooj. The analogy of the painting is very vivid for me. But I must admit I find it very hard to imagine you as a Chameleon of any kind.
I would also like to be a masterpiece that He would be proud to sign.
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another spot
There is a difference between being passive, aggressive, and assertive. The lines between them can be fine. Passive is saying “yes” when you want to say “no.” Aggressive is saying “no” in an abusive manner. Assertive is having a strong enough sense of self and the confidence to just say “no.” An adamant “no” is OK when the need arises.
I think assertive is a synonym for “backbone.” I also think that passive or aggressive by nature excludes genuine kindness, mercy, grace, and even the ability to help others. Assertiveness or backbone is having enough courage of your convictions to help yourself and others. It is honest. Passivity/spineless isn’t honest.
But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help?
Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were. –ex10
I think it takes a strong sense of self and backbone/assertiveness to genuinely do this.
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another spot
Some synonyms for “backbone” according to the thesaurus in Word: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, and self-discipline.
I thought these were nifty. Thinking about twi, we never would have gotten through it in one piece without some or all of the above. It takes all that just to deal with the spiritual abuse day after day. It also takes all of it to put oneself back together again afterward. Then the day arrives when the confusion is kinda cleared up, and it's possible to stand up and speak up without tons of doubts. Rediscovering one's backbone...
And maybe in the process we discover we were worthwhile all along.
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excathedra
great post a.spot
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