Bliss: By definition, a saint is a believer and a sinner is an unbeliever. If you pray to God then you're a believer. Sure, all people sin; even believers, but when VP said saint and sinner alike, he meant saint= believer and sinner = unbeliever.
This is not automatic. It's contingent on a) standing fast in the Lord (v.1), b) being of the same mind in the Lord (v.2), being careful (anxious) for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving (v.6), thinking on all these things (v.8), and doing those things they'd learned, received, and heard in Paul (v.9). Like I said, my kids don't get everything they ask for, but they know i love them.
This is not automatic. It's contingent on a) standing fast in the Lord (v.1), b) being of the same mind in the Lord (v.2), being careful (anxious) for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving (v.6), thinking on all these things (v.8), and doing those things they'd learned, received, and heard in Paul (v.9). Like I said, my kids don't get everything they ask for, but they know i love them.
Okay, let me adjust my list accordingly:
1. Recognize the existance and have a loving relationship with the heavenly father
2. Trust that this heavenly father will meet all your needs simply because he is a loving father
3. Understand that God expects certain conditions to be met before he meets those needs
4. Asking for specific things in prayer is okay, as long as you don't expect any specific timetable, and aren't disappointed if the results are different than what you expected or are non-existant
Bliss: By definition, a saint is a believer and a sinner is an unbeliever. If you pray to God then you're a believer. Sure, all people sin; even believers, but when VP said saint and sinner alike, he meant saint= believer and sinner = unbeliever.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Can you document your definition?
This thread seems to have become fragmented.
We are discussing three different topics as though they were one.
1.Prayer
2. Believing
3. The *Law Of Believing*
They are separate topics, interwoven at times, perhaps, but separate topics, none the less.
The thread title is:
The Law Of Believing
I think that they have become interwoven because Wierwille interwove them. His "Law of Believing" examples and analogies involved prayer. It's difficult to ascertain whether Wierwille's "Law of Believing" is correct or not without reference to prayer.
Edited by Oakspear
This is not automatic. It's contingent on a) standing fast in the Lord (v.1), b) being of the same mind in the Lord (v.2), being careful (anxious) for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving (v.6), thinking on all these things (v.8), and doing those things they'd learned, received, and heard in Paul (v.9). Like I said, my kids don't get everything they ask for, but they know i love them.
Sorry - I don't like clutter in my theology. PFAL and TWI added so many unnecessary complications to how life works. Shifra made a great point in post # 122 commenting on the Lord's Prayer:
...I just wanted to say that Jesus taught us to pray like this:
1. Words of honor to our Father
2. Acknowledgment of "Thy will be done"
3. Statement of essential needs: food, forgiveness, guidance
4. More words of honor
Pretty simple. And that second piece of the Lord's Prayer reflects exactly what Java just wrote about. Please note: no red drapes.
Ah, the beauty of simplicity. And if I may tweak that just a little I would say it refers to moral guidance – asking to be led away from temptation and delivered from evil. We're given a model of prayer that identifies what is essential: food, forgiveness and moral guidance. And reading further down in the same chapter, believers are directed to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness – and God will provide essential food, drink and clothing.
Matthew 6:7-13, 25-34 NKJV
7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Also interesting to note that Jesus speaks of God supplying the needs of birds and the grass of the field. It reminds me of a similar idea in Psalms:
Psalm 104:21 NKJV
The young lions roar after their prey, And seek their food from God.
From the natural eye perspective, we know animals and vegetation are capable of accomplishing these things themselves. Like them, man has a natural ability to work for the necessities of life. God's design of life incorporated a self-sustaining feature. Now we have stumbled upon something that works for saint and sinner alike…[drum roll, please]…WORK! Do the birds sit there and wait for food to come to them? Do flowers wait for the gardener to come dress them? Do lions stay in their den and order-in food?
The Matthew 6 passage doesn't specify how God will provide/add these essential things for us. I am just thinking out loud here with all I've said. Jesus said the Gentiles also seek those things. Jesus did specify the believer's first priority should be to seek the kingdom of God – assuming God has worked out all the details of providing the essentials for us.
The point of Jesus' analogy was not to WORRY about the NECESSITIES of life. He didn't say "don't work" – He said "don't worry." I actually heard a TWI teaching using this Matthew 6 passage as a guide for getting a nice big house. For me that's typical of the lazy and greedy mindset that TWI's law of believing fostered. Wanting something for free, a shortcut or get-rich-quick formula.
Perhaps…he lost me on his contingency list for God to supply our needs. And besides - the passage he referred to [Philippians 4:1-8] mentioned nothing of God supplying our every need – but speaks of the peace of God guarding our hearts and being with us…I prefer something simple and direct - like what’s in Matthew 6:33 – “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”
The point of Jesus' analogy was not to WORRY about the NECESSITIES of life. He didn't say "don't work" – He said "don't worry." I actually heard a TWI teaching using this Matthew 6 passage as a guide for getting a nice big house. For me that's typical of the lazy and greedy mindset that TWI's law of believing fostered. Wanting something for free, a shortcut or get-rich-quick formula.
Why is it that this "miraculous" existence seems only to work for the top dog in the cult, or the very few on top?
They make it sound like promises of "liberty".. the "good life", little or no effort required.
1. Recognize the existance and have a loving relationship with the heavenly father
2. Trust that this heavenly father will meet all your needs simply because he is a loving father
3. Asking for specific things in prayer is okay, as long as you don't expect any specific timetable, and aren't disappointed if the results are different than what you expected or are non-existant
I also see points of disagreement:
* "Believe" when you pray
* Understand that God expects certain conditions to be met before he meets those needs
Perhaps the "conditions" can be understood in light of the details of 1, 2 & 3. After all, exactly what is a relationship with God? At one point to you pass from “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness," and not doing the same? Does God honor intent? If you think that you seeking first, does that mean that you are?
Is there some kind of doctrinal standard for seeking first? Is there a definition of "God" that one has to accept?
Those are great points to think about, Oak…and I'm not attempting to cite any doctrinal standards on this stuff. But I will share what I often think about on one of my favorite passages – not saying any of this is right – it's just thinking out loud.
I think of the context – Matthew 5 to 7 is Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Near the beginning He mentions the kingdom of heaven and righteousness.
Matthew 5:17-20 NIV
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I may be way off on this – but maybe this relates to Matthew 6:33. When I think of doctrine and systematic theology – I have the convenience of printed Bibles and all that's been written on any given biblical topic. All Jesus' audience had were His words of the moment. What I gather from this Matthew 5 section – practicingandteaching God's commands are a BIG DEAL in God's kingdom! Actions do speak louder than words in my book, anyway. I'm so tempted to draw in Luke 17 where Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you [some texts read "among you"]. The kingdom of God is something spiritual...Jesus sends us on a spiritual quest of top priority...a seeking first...Maybe it's a matter of making our top priority - to conduct our affairs in ways that honor heaven - which might also provide a signpost for other seekers...I dunno...Am I seeking first to address everything from God's perspective?...uh oh - afraid I went from interpretation over into straight babbling...better have an exceler's session.
In my opinion, Jesus always emphasized the moral aspect of God's commands – therefore the word "righteousness" is used. And that we should truly submit to the righteous [moral] demands of Scripture – unlike the hypocrites He mentions in Matthew 5:20.
The way I see the personal application of seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness is how I focus on my day. I think about the two great commands love God and neighbor. Anything I'm involved with today - is it something that is legitimate? And not only that – but do my intentions, attitudes and actions honor God? What do my actions and attitudes say about God? What would my actions and attitudes inspire other people to think or do?
One of my favorite books is Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. He makes the point in his book about true success is based on something of real value, like integrity, industry, love, the Golden Rule, etc. – and not on taking shortcuts. I'm probably all over the map here – sorry. But it all ties together for me. Like I was saying in a previous post – how God designed us with self-sustaining features. To me things like people applying themselves, being disciplined, working smart, being honest, having compassion, etc. honors our Creator who gave us that potential. And I think those are the things that not only help put food on our tables and clothes on our backs – but satisfies some deep psychological need as well.
Interesting points T-Bone. I didn't think that you were setting doctrinal standards for God supplying, just was throwing it out there. Yes, actions do speak louder than words.
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johniam
Bliss: By definition, a saint is a believer and a sinner is an unbeliever. If you pray to God then you're a believer. Sure, all people sin; even believers, but when VP said saint and sinner alike, he meant saint= believer and sinner = unbeliever.
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johniam
quote: If God is going to supply your every need,
This is not automatic. It's contingent on a) standing fast in the Lord (v.1), b) being of the same mind in the Lord (v.2), being careful (anxious) for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving (v.6), thinking on all these things (v.8), and doing those things they'd learned, received, and heard in Paul (v.9). Like I said, my kids don't get everything they ask for, but they know i love them.
Edited by johniamLink to comment
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waysider
This thread seems to have become fragmented.
We are discussing three different topics as though they were one.
1.Prayer
2. Believing
3. The *Law Of Believing*
They are separate topics, interwoven at times, perhaps, but separate topics, none the less.
The thread title is:
The Law Of Believing
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Oakspear
1. Recognize the existance and have a loving relationship with the heavenly father
2. Trust that this heavenly father will meet all your needs simply because he is a loving father
3. Understand that God expects certain conditions to be met before he meets those needs
4. Asking for specific things in prayer is okay, as long as you don't expect any specific timetable, and aren't disappointed if the results are different than what you expected or are non-existant
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Can you document your definition?I think that they have become interwoven because Wierwille interwove them. His "Law of Believing" examples and analogies involved prayer. It's difficult to ascertain whether Wierwille's "Law of Believing" is correct or not without reference to prayer. Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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T-Bone
Sorry - I don't like clutter in my theology. PFAL and TWI added so many unnecessary complications to how life works. Shifra made a great point in post # 122 commenting on the Lord's Prayer:
Ah, the beauty of simplicity. And if I may tweak that just a little I would say it refers to moral guidance – asking to be led away from temptation and delivered from evil. We're given a model of prayer that identifies what is essential: food, forgiveness and moral guidance. And reading further down in the same chapter, believers are directed to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness – and God will provide essential food, drink and clothing.
Matthew 6:7-13, 25-34 NKJV
7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Also interesting to note that Jesus speaks of God supplying the needs of birds and the grass of the field. It reminds me of a similar idea in Psalms:
Psalm 104:21 NKJV
The young lions roar after their prey, And seek their food from God.
From the natural eye perspective, we know animals and vegetation are capable of accomplishing these things themselves. Like them, man has a natural ability to work for the necessities of life. God's design of life incorporated a self-sustaining feature. Now we have stumbled upon something that works for saint and sinner alike…[drum roll, please]…WORK! Do the birds sit there and wait for food to come to them? Do flowers wait for the gardener to come dress them? Do lions stay in their den and order-in food?
The Matthew 6 passage doesn't specify how God will provide/add these essential things for us. I am just thinking out loud here with all I've said. Jesus said the Gentiles also seek those things. Jesus did specify the believer's first priority should be to seek the kingdom of God – assuming God has worked out all the details of providing the essentials for us.
The point of Jesus' analogy was not to WORRY about the NECESSITIES of life. He didn't say "don't work" – He said "don't worry." I actually heard a TWI teaching using this Matthew 6 passage as a guide for getting a nice big house. For me that's typical of the lazy and greedy mindset that TWI's law of believing fostered. Wanting something for free, a shortcut or get-rich-quick formula.
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Oakspear
T-Bone, I don't think that johniam is saying anything that much different than you. Just wording it differently.
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T-Bone
Perhaps…he lost me on his contingency list for God to supply our needs. And besides - the passage he referred to [Philippians 4:1-8] mentioned nothing of God supplying our every need – but speaks of the peace of God guarding our hearts and being with us…I prefer something simple and direct - like what’s in Matthew 6:33 – “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”
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Ham
Why is it that this "miraculous" existence seems only to work for the top dog in the cult, or the very few on top?
They make it sound like promises of "liberty".. the "good life", little or no effort required.
Then comes the yoke.
"if you'd just GIVE enough. Can't outgive God.."
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Oakspear
Thanks T-Bone, I'll adjust again...
1. Recognize the existance and have a loving relationship with the heavenly father
2. Trust that this heavenly father will meet all your needs simply because he is a loving father
3. Asking for specific things in prayer is okay, as long as you don't expect any specific timetable, and aren't disappointed if the results are different than what you expected or are non-existant
I also see points of disagreement:
* "Believe" when you pray
* Understand that God expects certain conditions to be met before he meets those needs
Perhaps the "conditions" can be understood in light of the details of 1, 2 & 3. After all, exactly what is a relationship with God? At one point to you pass from “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness," and not doing the same? Does God honor intent? If you think that you seeking first, does that mean that you are?
Is there some kind of doctrinal standard for seeking first? Is there a definition of "God" that one has to accept?
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T-Bone
Those are great points to think about, Oak…and I'm not attempting to cite any doctrinal standards on this stuff. But I will share what I often think about on one of my favorite passages – not saying any of this is right – it's just thinking out loud.
I think of the context – Matthew 5 to 7 is Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Near the beginning He mentions the kingdom of heaven and righteousness.
Matthew 5:17-20 NIV
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I may be way off on this – but maybe this relates to Matthew 6:33. When I think of doctrine and systematic theology – I have the convenience of printed Bibles and all that's been written on any given biblical topic. All Jesus' audience had were His words of the moment. What I gather from this Matthew 5 section – practicing and teaching God's commands are a BIG DEAL in God's kingdom! Actions do speak louder than words in my book, anyway. I'm so tempted to draw in Luke 17 where Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you [some texts read "among you"]. The kingdom of God is something spiritual...Jesus sends us on a spiritual quest of top priority...a seeking first...Maybe it's a matter of making our top priority - to conduct our affairs in ways that honor heaven - which might also provide a signpost for other seekers...I dunno...Am I seeking first to address everything from God's perspective?...uh oh - afraid I went from interpretation over into straight babbling...better have an exceler's session.
In my opinion, Jesus always emphasized the moral aspect of God's commands – therefore the word "righteousness" is used. And that we should truly submit to the righteous [moral] demands of Scripture – unlike the hypocrites He mentions in Matthew 5:20.
The way I see the personal application of seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness is how I focus on my day. I think about the two great commands love God and neighbor. Anything I'm involved with today - is it something that is legitimate? And not only that – but do my intentions, attitudes and actions honor God? What do my actions and attitudes say about God? What would my actions and attitudes inspire other people to think or do?
One of my favorite books is Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. He makes the point in his book about true success is based on something of real value, like integrity, industry, love, the Golden Rule, etc. – and not on taking shortcuts. I'm probably all over the map here – sorry. But it all ties together for me. Like I was saying in a previous post – how God designed us with self-sustaining features. To me things like people applying themselves, being disciplined, working smart, being honest, having compassion, etc. honors our Creator who gave us that potential. And I think those are the things that not only help put food on our tables and clothes on our backs – but satisfies some deep psychological need as well.
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Oakspear
Interesting points T-Bone. I didn't think that you were setting doctrinal standards for God supplying, just was throwing it out there. Yes, actions do speak louder than words.
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