Craig went to a shrink? No way! For, he was "Martindale! The rainbow headband man!"
"And all things whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive".
Well now, Jesus spoke those words, and I believe them. Does that mean "believing equals receiving"? I don't know. Is this "The Law Of Believing"? I don't know. But Jesus said that if you believe when you pray, you shall (absolute tense) receive. I believe that. And so, people have asked here recently in another thread, "why would God answer one person's prayer, but not another persons?" I don't know. But, if what Jesus said was/is true, then I am willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and suspect that the problem with the unanswered prayer came about because of some problem on the part of the human, and not because God was "being quirky". The thing that I have always enjoyed about God's Word is that it has always been a ROCK for me. Something that never changes, is always there, and always dependable. And I have always been willing to say, if things are going in a negative manner, it's gotta be me, and not Him, for God is perfect, and I definitely am not.
On the other hand, I have seen extraordinary results in my life due to prayer when I have prayed with this verse in mind. Once, when I was a WOW, I prayed specifically for a car, because my "piece of sheet car" was broken down, and we needed a car to get around South Central L.A. Within the week, I invited a guy to twig, who came, and when twig was over and he had learned that our car wasn't working (because he'd asked for a ride and we couldn't give him one), he offered to give me a car that he had. He gave me the keys right there on the spot. And, it was a 67 Buick Wildcat with a 430 C.I. engine with a four barrel carburetor, air conditioning, electric seats, electric windows, whitewall tires, dual exhaust, and, it had a very nice gold paint job. The day I drove it home, I took him and my WOW family cruising on the Sunset Strip and Hollywood Boulevard. We had a blast. We called it our "Ephesians 3:20 Car". And, I had spoken aloud throughout the time after I prayed for it that "it will be great to be driving that car God is going to supply for me". And, it happened sure as you're born. It was a trip man, and we were all blown away by it and it totally boosted our moral and our confidence in God and His Son Jesus Christ.
And so, was that "The Law Of Believing"? I dunno. I thought so then, but today I don't know what you'd "label" it. Was it believing equals receiving?" Again, I dunno. I believed that then though. But maybe I don't call it that today. Haven't thought of that "label" in a long time, really. But, am I happy to have learned that I could pray like that? Yes I am, and I endeavor to pray like that to this day. I am glad to have learned that while I was in The Way. And, there are numerous verses of Scripture where Jesus talks about how faith and believing is in fact a pre-requisite to getting prayers answered. I dunno what we should label it, but, I am thankful to have had that pointed out to me.
Now, some may think that I am being a "Way apologist" here, but I am not. Some may say; "Well, you could have learned that many other places". And this is true, but let's not get off the track, for we are not talking about that, really. I think we are talking about this TWI labeled "Law" of believing. I don't know what to call it once again, but the Bible is loaded with many specific instructions that if we are to receive, we must first believe. It's pretty straight forward, really. And there are numerous examples in the Bible of that same pre-requisite to receiving things from God. The gospels are loaded with examples as Jesus himself demonstrated. And that, I can trust. I can't trust myself, but I can trust God's Word to be true, and that gives me great hope and comfort. Anyway, food for thought... :)
And I have always been willing to say, if things are going in a negative manner, it's gotta be me, and not Him, for God is perfect, and I definitely am not.
See, here's the thing, Jonny, you didn't go to God and demand.(and you were thankful.)
There's really a big difference between what you posted and what was pushed on people as The Law Of Believing.
It's not unique to The Way. Now we have "The Secret". There have been lots of others.
And, a lot of non-TWI groups expound the theory of "What you confess, you possess".
I heard a lady on the news the other day make the comment that she would not suggest her missing daughter might have met foul play because to do so would be to accept it as a reality. I'm quite sure she was basing her statement on her particular religious beliefs.
What this really involves is the idea that you can make things happen in the physical world by directing them with your thoughts.(ie: if I say I am concerned she may have met foul play, that increases the chances she did.)
That is very different than humbly going to God in prayer and thanking him for his blessings.
I still believe God can answer prayer.
I no longer believe it has anything to do with how strongly I "believe".
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
Prayer - private, personal. How I pray and what I go to God with is between us. If I choose to share it, fine. If not, it's nobody's business. When people feel compelled to separate "believing" from their prayer life I think it gets disconnected from the relationship where it most belongs, between a person and God. What a person goes to God with, in private, in prayer, is up to them. A person's hopes, expecatations, lifes endeavors - these should be things for constructive participation, celebration!
Hassling each other is hmmm, what's the word? Crap.
Like I said before, I don't have a label for it anymore. All I know is that what Jesus Christ said, worked for me then, and works for me now, and I am thankful.
i'm glad the god i talk to is love
yours is like a measuring stick or something
I don't know why you would ever say that about me Ex. You just don't know me I guess, and seem to want to judge me. I love the same God that you do...
Like I said before, I don't have a label for it anymore. All I know is that what Jesus Christ said, worked for me then, and works for me now, and I am thankful.
I've never met a person who could honestly say that their "believing" produced the prayed-for results 100% of the time. Blaming yourself (or letting others blame you) for lack of "receiving" is in essence making excuses for the "Law" not working as advertised.
And I'm not saying that the incidents you or anyone else described didn't happen. This isn't a "Does God exist?" or a "Does God Answer Prayer?" discussion. But "The Law of Believing" was presented as a works-all-the-time, 100% guaranteed, just-follow-the-steps type of deal. It wasn't. The way it was taught in TWI the one who didn't "receive" was condemned.
The problem with the "Law of Believing" was that we were convinced that it always worked, even when it didn't, so convinced that we had ready-made weasel words at hand for the many times that it didn't. Lack of results didn't faze us.
I don't know why you would ever say that about me Ex. You just don't know me I guess, and seem to want to judge me. I love the same God that you do...
I'm sure ExC can speak up for herself, but what does knowing you have to do with commenting on your posts? She obviously feels that the description is apt, based on your written words.
Edited by Oakspear
I've never met a person who could honestly say that their "believing" produced the prayed-for results 100% of the time.
I've never met one either, unless knowing Jesus counts for anything. But I do know this:
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe". -I Thessalonians 2:13
Yeah, I like that. I think that when God says effectually worketh in you who believe, that I can trust that all of the time.
And Waysider, you said:
I still believe God can answer prayer.
I no longer believe it has anything to do with how strongly I "believe".
I believe that too. I never did believe in that "different levels of believing thing". "Hmm, I must believe "stronger". "Hey man, ya gotta get yer believing up there!" Never did go for that crapola. But I do believe what Jesus said about believing and prayer to be true. Call it a "law"? I dunno. But according to Jesus, it is a pre-requisite for receiving answers to prayer (Matt 21:22). I mean, he did say it for some reason, ya know?
But, if what Jesus said was/is true, then I am willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and suspect that the problem with the unanswered prayer came about because of some problem on the part of the human, and not because God was "being quirky". The thing that I have always enjoyed about God's Word is that it has always been a ROCK for me. Something that never changes, is always there, and always dependable. And I have always been willing to say, if things are going in a negative manner, it's gotta be me, and not Him, for God is perfect, and I definitely am not.
There are the verses in James 4, 'Ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.' In the case of a gentleman mentioned earlier on this thread who gave away his car because he was 'believing' for a new one, let me ask if he really needed a new car. He already had a car that apparently was running. Could it be that his prayer fell into the category of 'asking amiss, because of lust'? I am not trying to blame this gentleman for his 'lack of believing', just suggesting that his 'believing' was misplaced.
It is as plain as day that the scriptures teach believing as a concept to receive results.
. . .
The Law of Believing is the most ambiguous concept on Earth. Talk to any wayfer, they replace every verb with "believe" "believing" and may favorite "believingly"
The problem is, the integrity of the Word, as Dr. Wierwille taught.
Does one really believe the written Word?
There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe.
So go ahead and blame twi and the offshoots and other groups for believing the scriptures. They'll probably thank you for the compliment.
twi does not respect God, Scripture or Jesus Christ. They hold vpw about Jesus Christ as Lord. They hold the Word above God. Scripture is not accepted unless it was processed through the mind of vpw.
People twist the scriptures to suit their own needs. So did twi and VPee.
There is no place where is says believing is a law.
If you check the context around most of the uses of the word believe, Jesus Christ is referring to salvation. Believe and you shall receive etc. Has nothing to do with if you need a hundred bucks you wish for it and it apprears. That's circus tricks.Any other references to moving of mountains etc. was in the context of miracles and required the use of manifestations.
Twits made a law out of this and still use it today as a catch phrase to give them a way out of any situation they don't want to take the time to handle when things go wrong. They don't care about people's hearts. If anything screws up in any way, it's your believing.
But the topic of believing is one of those issues where the scripture interprets itself, right where it is written. You don't need the mind of VPW to explain what this means, it is plainly written and easily understandable all by itself:
Matt 21-22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? If you do, you are likeminded with twi. If you don't, you are not.
Perhaps you can explain what the above verse means if it is not to be taken literally.
There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe.
The thing I dispute is that God would demand of his own CHILDREN to somehow in the heat of the moment, to get the "details" right, rub the magic lamp in a precise manner, before doling out things in life that can be described as mere basic needs..
A physical father does not wait for a child to beg, pray, "believe", before considering handing him a little breakfast. Or clothing him or her..
Neither does he buy the child a shetland pony, a 1/5th size toy train to play with, or one hundred pounds of gold bullion, even if he indeed does get the "formula" right..
"Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? "
Uh, NO.
I used to. And I know NUMEROUS people who do/did believe it.
But you know what? It never happened. I HEARD about it happening, LOTS.
But where "the rubber meets the road", I found that particular bit of doggerel extremely lacking.
We'd pray, "believe" (what the hell the WayWorld version of that was, I still don't know, but it didn't stop us from trying), and wait, and WAIT.
No, Oldies I never saw it come to pass. Oh yeah, there were times when I got a parking place pretty close to the front door of the K-Mart, but never "right up front" like I was "believing" for. And there was lots of anecdotal stuff that we kept ourselves going with ("Jimmy got a job! And after only 8 months! Isn't God GREAT?"). But when the chips were down and you really needed something in your life I never saw it come to pass.
Like most of the miraculous events in life, they always play a lot better in retrospect. In the here and now? Not so much...
I fully understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't explain how twi's belief in , say, Matt 21:22 and other like scriptures was erroneous.
After all, the scriptures do communicate that Jesus did say that.
Being the biblical research & teaching group that twi always was, is it any surprise that they would literally believe the scriptures?
So therefore as I see it, if you conclude that twi was wrong you also must conclude that Jesus was wrong too. Maybe you do, and that'd be logical I suppose.
People twist the scriptures to suit their own needs. So did twi and VPee.
There is no place where is says believing is a law.
If you check the context around most of the uses of the word believe, Jesus Christ is referring to salvation. Believe and you shall receive etc. Has nothing to do with if you need a hundred bucks you wish for it and it apprears. That's circus tricks.Any other references to moving of mountains etc. was in the context of miracles and required the use of manifestations.
Twits made a law out of this and still use it today as a catch phrase to give them a way out of any situation they don't want to take the time to handle when things go wrong. They don't care about people's hearts. If anything screws up in any way, it's your believing.
This gives them an answer for everything.
Thanks PB.
And.......every notice how twi/vpw highlights the pauline epistles over and over again in examples for the born-again believer to follow in the steps of Paul/Timothy/Silas. After all, these verses are written TO us and specifically addressed TO the believers. YET.....in addressing believing, twi cites Jesus' words.
What about adultery? Does twi highlight Jesus' words?
What about loving God and your neighbor? Does twi highlight Jesus' words?
Doesn't it seem hypocritical to "jump from adminstration to administration" and CHERRY-PICK the verses and concepts that propel one's agendas......while, at the same time, dish out vehement reproof when someone doesn't apply the love of God as twi dictates? I think so.
If we are going to cite Jesus as a prime source for "believing".........why don't we ALSO cite Jesus as a prime source for WALKING IN LOVE?
IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available.
As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.
It's a misquotation of Hebrews 11:35-40; 'Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings, and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, thet were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'
It never says anything about 'being sawn asunder by believing'.
And in answer to George Aar's post, I don't recall any promise in the Bible that guarantees a parking spot right by the door.
IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available.
As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.
It's a misquotation of Hebrews 11:35-40; 'Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings, and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, thet were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'
It never says anything about 'being sawn asunder by believing'.
And in answer to George Aar's post, I don't recall any promise in the Bible that guarantees a parking spot right by the door.
So if one were to read the Bible, how does one come up with "The Law of Believing" and all the rules?
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J0nny Ling0
Craig went to a shrink? No way! For, he was "Martindale! The rainbow headband man!"
"And all things whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive".
Well now, Jesus spoke those words, and I believe them. Does that mean "believing equals receiving"? I don't know. Is this "The Law Of Believing"? I don't know. But Jesus said that if you believe when you pray, you shall (absolute tense) receive. I believe that. And so, people have asked here recently in another thread, "why would God answer one person's prayer, but not another persons?" I don't know. But, if what Jesus said was/is true, then I am willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and suspect that the problem with the unanswered prayer came about because of some problem on the part of the human, and not because God was "being quirky". The thing that I have always enjoyed about God's Word is that it has always been a ROCK for me. Something that never changes, is always there, and always dependable. And I have always been willing to say, if things are going in a negative manner, it's gotta be me, and not Him, for God is perfect, and I definitely am not.
On the other hand, I have seen extraordinary results in my life due to prayer when I have prayed with this verse in mind. Once, when I was a WOW, I prayed specifically for a car, because my "piece of sheet car" was broken down, and we needed a car to get around South Central L.A. Within the week, I invited a guy to twig, who came, and when twig was over and he had learned that our car wasn't working (because he'd asked for a ride and we couldn't give him one), he offered to give me a car that he had. He gave me the keys right there on the spot. And, it was a 67 Buick Wildcat with a 430 C.I. engine with a four barrel carburetor, air conditioning, electric seats, electric windows, whitewall tires, dual exhaust, and, it had a very nice gold paint job. The day I drove it home, I took him and my WOW family cruising on the Sunset Strip and Hollywood Boulevard. We had a blast. We called it our "Ephesians 3:20 Car". And, I had spoken aloud throughout the time after I prayed for it that "it will be great to be driving that car God is going to supply for me". And, it happened sure as you're born. It was a trip man, and we were all blown away by it and it totally boosted our moral and our confidence in God and His Son Jesus Christ.
And so, was that "The Law Of Believing"? I dunno. I thought so then, but today I don't know what you'd "label" it. Was it believing equals receiving?" Again, I dunno. I believed that then though. But maybe I don't call it that today. Haven't thought of that "label" in a long time, really. But, am I happy to have learned that I could pray like that? Yes I am, and I endeavor to pray like that to this day. I am glad to have learned that while I was in The Way. And, there are numerous verses of Scripture where Jesus talks about how faith and believing is in fact a pre-requisite to getting prayers answered. I dunno what we should label it, but, I am thankful to have had that pointed out to me.
Now, some may think that I am being a "Way apologist" here, but I am not. Some may say; "Well, you could have learned that many other places". And this is true, but let's not get off the track, for we are not talking about that, really. I think we are talking about this TWI labeled "Law" of believing. I don't know what to call it once again, but the Bible is loaded with many specific instructions that if we are to receive, we must first believe. It's pretty straight forward, really. And there are numerous examples in the Bible of that same pre-requisite to receiving things from God. The gospels are loaded with examples as Jesus himself demonstrated. And that, I can trust. I can't trust myself, but I can trust God's Word to be true, and that gives me great hope and comfort. Anyway, food for thought... :)
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dmiller
Jonny -- I don't have a problem with the words of Jesus.
I DO have a problem with how they were presented by docvic and co.
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excathedra
i'm glad the god i talk to is love
yours is like a measuring stick or something
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waysider
Hi. Jonny
'67 Wildcat! That was one beeyotchin' ride!
See, here's the thing, Jonny, you didn't go to God and demand.(and you were thankful.)
There's really a big difference between what you posted and what was pushed on people as The Law Of Believing.
It's not unique to The Way. Now we have "The Secret". There have been lots of others.
And, a lot of non-TWI groups expound the theory of "What you confess, you possess".
I heard a lady on the news the other day make the comment that she would not suggest her missing daughter might have met foul play because to do so would be to accept it as a reality. I'm quite sure she was basing her statement on her particular religious beliefs.
What this really involves is the idea that you can make things happen in the physical world by directing them with your thoughts.(ie: if I say I am concerned she may have met foul play, that increases the chances she did.)
That is very different than humbly going to God in prayer and thanking him for his blessings.
I still believe God can answer prayer.
I no longer believe it has anything to do with how strongly I "believe".
That's just my opinion.
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dmiller
For what it's worth -- here's a *stow-ry* for all y'all.
1978 -- the car I had gave up the ghost.
Needed a car, as I was moving up here to Minney-soda.
Never (that I can remember) consciously *believed*, or prayed for one,
but a fellow believer in the Bloomington, In. area wanted a new car.
He decided to give me his 1970 (something) Chevelle for $5.00.
(the price was there so he could say he sold it to the folks at the license branch).
He was looking to be receiving something better because he gave away his mode of transportation.
Guess what ??? I then had *wheels*, and he didn't.
He never *received* a newer car as a result.
His *operation* of the *law of believing* must've been faulty -- eh???
He never received what he expected (as taught by docvic and co),
While I can wholeheartedly agree with the words of Jesus,
and how it was meant in the original --
Docvic did a magnificent job of portraying an entirely DIFFERENT picture,
and we bought it --- hook line and sinker.
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socks
Wuddever I ask in prayer, believing...
Prayer - private, personal. How I pray and what I go to God with is between us. If I choose to share it, fine. If not, it's nobody's business. When people feel compelled to separate "believing" from their prayer life I think it gets disconnected from the relationship where it most belongs, between a person and God. What a person goes to God with, in private, in prayer, is up to them. A person's hopes, expecatations, lifes endeavors - these should be things for constructive participation, celebration!
Hassling each other is hmmm, what's the word? Crap.
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J0nny Ling0
Like I said before, I don't have a label for it anymore. All I know is that what Jesus Christ said, worked for me then, and works for me now, and I am thankful.
I don't know why you would ever say that about me Ex. You just don't know me I guess, and seem to want to judge me. I love the same God that you do...
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Oakspear
And I'm not saying that the incidents you or anyone else described didn't happen. This isn't a "Does God exist?" or a "Does God Answer Prayer?" discussion. But "The Law of Believing" was presented as a works-all-the-time, 100% guaranteed, just-follow-the-steps type of deal. It wasn't. The way it was taught in TWI the one who didn't "receive" was condemned.
The problem with the "Law of Believing" was that we were convinced that it always worked, even when it didn't, so convinced that we had ready-made weasel words at hand for the many times that it didn't. Lack of results didn't faze us.
I'm sure ExC can speak up for herself, but what does knowing you have to do with commenting on your posts? She obviously feels that the description is apt, based on your written words. Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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J0nny Ling0
I've never met one either, unless knowing Jesus counts for anything. But I do know this:
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe". -I Thessalonians 2:13
Yeah, I like that. I think that when God says effectually worketh in you who believe, that I can trust that all of the time.
And Waysider, you said:
I believe that too. I never did believe in that "different levels of believing thing". "Hmm, I must believe "stronger". "Hey man, ya gotta get yer believing up there!" Never did go for that crapola. But I do believe what Jesus said about believing and prayer to be true. Call it a "law"? I dunno. But according to Jesus, it is a pre-requisite for receiving answers to prayer (Matt 21:22). I mean, he did say it for some reason, ya know?
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johniam
There are the verses in James 4, 'Ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.' In the case of a gentleman mentioned earlier on this thread who gave away his car because he was 'believing' for a new one, let me ask if he really needed a new car. He already had a car that apparently was running. Could it be that his prayer fell into the category of 'asking amiss, because of lust'? I am not trying to blame this gentleman for his 'lack of believing', just suggesting that his 'believing' was misplaced.
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oldiesman
As I see it, this topic is all about scripture and how much one believes it, not necessary twi.
Jesus did say results would follow those who believe. So then if results don't follow, maybe one is not believing? Seems logical to me.
I think TWI is getting a bad rap here. It is as plain as day that the scriptures teach believing as a concept to receive results.
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Bolshevik
twi tells the housekeepers to believe while cleaning a toilet that the clean toilet will minister healing to all that use it.
twi is weird.
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oldiesman
The problem is, the integrity of the Word, as Dr. Wierwille taught.
Does one really believe the written Word?
There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe.
So go ahead and blame twi and the offshoots and other groups for believing the scriptures. They'll probably thank you for the compliment.
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Bolshevik
The Law of Believing is the most ambiguous concept on Earth. Talk to any wayfer, they replace every verb with "believe" "believing" and may favorite "believingly"
twi does not respect God, Scripture or Jesus Christ. They hold vpw about Jesus Christ as Lord. They hold the Word above God. Scripture is not accepted unless it was processed through the mind of vpw.
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polar bear
People twist the scriptures to suit their own needs. So did twi and VPee.
There is no place where is says believing is a law.
If you check the context around most of the uses of the word believe, Jesus Christ is referring to salvation. Believe and you shall receive etc. Has nothing to do with if you need a hundred bucks you wish for it and it apprears. That's circus tricks.Any other references to moving of mountains etc. was in the context of miracles and required the use of manifestations.
Twits made a law out of this and still use it today as a catch phrase to give them a way out of any situation they don't want to take the time to handle when things go wrong. They don't care about people's hearts. If anything screws up in any way, it's your believing.
This gives them an answer for everything.
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oldiesman
But the topic of believing is one of those issues where the scripture interprets itself, right where it is written. You don't need the mind of VPW to explain what this means, it is plainly written and easily understandable all by itself:
Matt 21-22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? If you do, you are likeminded with twi. If you don't, you are not.
Perhaps you can explain what the above verse means if it is not to be taken literally.
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Ham
The thing I dispute is that God would demand of his own CHILDREN to somehow in the heat of the moment, to get the "details" right, rub the magic lamp in a precise manner, before doling out things in life that can be described as mere basic needs..
A physical father does not wait for a child to beg, pray, "believe", before considering handing him a little breakfast. Or clothing him or her..
Neither does he buy the child a shetland pony, a 1/5th size toy train to play with, or one hundred pounds of gold bullion, even if he indeed does get the "formula" right..
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George Aar
"Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? "
Uh, NO.
I used to. And I know NUMEROUS people who do/did believe it.
But you know what? It never happened. I HEARD about it happening, LOTS.
But where "the rubber meets the road", I found that particular bit of doggerel extremely lacking.
We'd pray, "believe" (what the hell the WayWorld version of that was, I still don't know, but it didn't stop us from trying), and wait, and WAIT.
No, Oldies I never saw it come to pass. Oh yeah, there were times when I got a parking place pretty close to the front door of the K-Mart, but never "right up front" like I was "believing" for. And there was lots of anecdotal stuff that we kept ourselves going with ("Jimmy got a job! And after only 8 months! Isn't God GREAT?"). But when the chips were down and you really needed something in your life I never saw it come to pass.
Like most of the miraculous events in life, they always play a lot better in retrospect. In the here and now? Not so much...
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oldiesman
I fully understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't explain how twi's belief in , say, Matt 21:22 and other like scriptures was erroneous.
After all, the scriptures do communicate that Jesus did say that.
Being the biblical research & teaching group that twi always was, is it any surprise that they would literally believe the scriptures?
So therefore as I see it, if you conclude that twi was wrong you also must conclude that Jesus was wrong too. Maybe you do, and that'd be logical I suppose.
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Bolshevik
what do you make of the prophets being "sawn asunder" by believing? and those not receiving the promise?
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oldiesman
IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available.
As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.
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skyrider
Thanks PB.
And.......every notice how twi/vpw highlights the pauline epistles over and over again in examples for the born-again believer to follow in the steps of Paul/Timothy/Silas. After all, these verses are written TO us and specifically addressed TO the believers. YET.....in addressing believing, twi cites Jesus' words.
What about adultery? Does twi highlight Jesus' words?
What about loving God and your neighbor? Does twi highlight Jesus' words?
Doesn't it seem hypocritical to "jump from adminstration to administration" and CHERRY-PICK the verses and concepts that propel one's agendas......while, at the same time, dish out vehement reproof when someone doesn't apply the love of God as twi dictates? I think so.
If we are going to cite Jesus as a prime source for "believing".........why don't we ALSO cite Jesus as a prime source for WALKING IN LOVE?
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johniam
It's a misquotation of Hebrews 11:35-40; 'Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings, and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, thet were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'
It never says anything about 'being sawn asunder by believing'.
And in answer to George Aar's post, I don't recall any promise in the Bible that guarantees a parking spot right by the door.
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Bolshevik
So if one were to read the Bible, how does one come up with "The Law of Believing" and all the rules?
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